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cessnalady
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Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:16 am

Re: a photo of a B773 in the assembly line that appeared today as "Top of past 24 hours"...

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Photo © Royal S King


Looking closely, you will notice the rudder shows the red, green, white and black array typical of Etihad's livery...

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Photo © Paul Jongeneelen


Can this mean Boeing is installing in this new B773 a rudder part previously used on another aircraft? (Seems unlikely they would paint that part beforehand hoping that it matches the final paint job...) Would this be OK?

I know brand new cars can only be assembled using new parts (they can be new parts made of recycled raw materials) - but in this case it is like seeing a '2006 Corvette using the door sheets of a '2005 model of another color... I wouldn't take it if knowing in advance... What do you fellow a.nutters think?

Marie
 
gigneil
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:17 am

Um, you can see clearly the banner that says "5th Boeing 777 for Etihad" on the plane.

Many pieces are pre-painted.

N
 
A319XFW
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:19 am

Not sure about that 777 but it happens that parts are "robbed" from other aircraft further down the line if it fails during testing or something (say a computer) and a spare isn't immediately available due to the 'just-in-time' delivery of some parts.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:22 am

How the hell do you implement a moving assembly line in the middle of that mess?
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gigneil
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:23 am

The 777 is not built on a moving line.

N
 
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B742
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:24 am

The rudder is always pre-painted... (well mostly)

This photo gives another example, you can clearly see the ANA and Delta colours on the rudder:

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Photo © David Lednicer



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RichardPrice
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 3):
How the hell do you implement a moving assembly line in the middle of that mess?

Not all Boeings production lines are moving, the 747 one is but there are several that arent.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 am

Boeing has always pre-painted the rudders of all of the new commercial aircraft. There have been some exceptions with BBJ's or some VIP aircraft. It's one of the ways people can tell which airplane is their's before leaving the line.
 
RedDragon
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 am

The rudder is generally painted in advance, supposedly so it can be balanced properly before the rest of the aircraft is painted.

Quoting CessnaLady (Thread starter):
Seems unlikely they would paint that part beforehand hoping that it matches the final paint job

Why would there be any uncertainty that a pre-painted component would match the rest of the paintjob? It's not as if each aircraft is painted freehand...

Rich
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:25 am

Rudders are pre-painted due to the fact that the weight of the paint can effect the balance, which is very important on the rudder.
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grantcv
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:27 am

The rudder is pre-painted as it allows it to be more accurately balanced duing assembly. Boeing have been doing that for years.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 9):

I thought the VTP is pre-painted because it's easier and quicker to paint them (as they are more detailed) when they aren't on the aircraft. Some take longer to paint than the actual aircraft.
Pre-painting the rudder isn't done on some VIP or other aircraft as stated above.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 11):
I thought the VTP is pre-painted because it's easier and quicker to paint them (as they are more detailed) when they aren't on the aircraft. Some take longer to paint than the actual aircraft.
Pre-painting the rudder isn't done on some VIP or other aircraft as stated above.

I've always been told that minutia in the amount of paint applied to each side of the rudder can effect the balance.
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ual747den
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 3):
How the hell do you implement a moving assembly line in the middle of that mess?

got a laugh out of that one. You sound like my wife!
Wife: " How the hell do you get anything done working in that messy office"
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cessnalady
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:37 am

Thanks for the comments. So they are, indeed, pre-painted.

Marie
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting CessnaLady (Reply 14):
Thanks for the comments. So they are, indeed, pre-painted.

Marie

but not re-used
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:42 am

Now that the mystery has been solved, I have a question: Who can spot the teeny tiny people around the airplane?  Smile I can see only one so far -- the guy in the background in front of one of the two doors on the mezzanine to the left of the vertical stabilizer.
What's fair is fair.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:46 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 12):
I've always been told that minutia in the amount of paint applied to each side of the rudder can effect the balance.

You might be right in this respect

Boeing -


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Photo © Royal S King



Airbus -


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Photo © French Frogs AirSlides



But this Qantas tailplane will be red, but isn't here yet. But does seem to have some kind of primer already?


View Large View Medium
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Photo © French Frogs AirSlides



Edit: Added pics in.

[Edited 2006-01-02 22:50:45]
 
jeb94
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:46 am

Any flight control surface that gets painted has to be balanced on almost all aircraft. The balance of these controls are critical and paint can add a significant amount of weight. There are several layers of paint as well, adding to the weight.
 
dan2002
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
Now that the mystery has been solved, I have a question: Who can spot the teeny tiny people around the airplane? I can see only one so far -- the guy in the background in front of one of the two doors on the mezzanine to the left of the vertical stabilizer.

Theres one walking by the nose as well.


Dan
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atmx2000
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 4):
The 777 is not built on a moving line.

It is in the process of shifting to a moving line. I don't know if it has been completed yet.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...s/252270_boeing16.html?source=mypi

Over the past year, Boeing has been implementing a more efficient and leaner production system for the 777 at the Everett plant, switching from a conventional assembly line to a moving production line that is now used on the 737 program in Renton.
Production of the 777 is also being shifted in phases to an adjacent bay in the plant to make room for the 787, which will enter production in 2007. Final assembly of that plane is expected to require 800 to 1,000 workers.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 17):
But this Qantas tailplane will be red, but isn't here yet. But does seem to have some kind of primer already?

I honestly couldn't tell you as I am no where near as familiar with airbuses assembly process as I am with Boeings.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Dan2002 (Reply 19):
Theres one walking by the nose as well.

Oh yeah! I don't know how I could have missed him. He's much larger, since he's in the foreground.

On second inspection, I think that the one guy I pointed out might be next to a second, smaller person in a light-blue shirt, although that second "person" could equally be part of a tool box or something. [EDIT: On third inspection, it's clear that it's not a person in a blue shirt. Had to use the "Fit Screen" function to see that.]

Anyway, the whole process of assembling even just one aircraft must be elaborate and a monster to keep track of.

The American flag on the wall is a nice touch.

You truly can see more and more in the picture the more you look at it.

[Edited 2006-01-02 22:57:52]
What's fair is fair.
 
A319XFW
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 6:55 am

Here's one in XFW - rudder still in primer.


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Photo © Björn Lange



But perhaps it's not as critical for small aircraft as it is for large?
Pure speculation on my behalf as I know nothing about paint (well apart from watching it dry is boring  Big grin and on Airbus' a/c most are completely pre-painted because of the time and complexity that is) so I'll shut up now!
 
gigneil
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:12 am

The Virgin America rudder seems to be covered in a protective sticker.

N
 
3DoorsDown
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:29 am

The others on this site that said we paint the rudders beforehand due to wieght and balance issues are correct. Be it a small 737 or a large 777. As for Airbi, I would not even want to guess why they do what they do.  biggrin 

3DD
 
474218
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:46 am

All the primary flight control surfaces must be balanced. If the primary control surface is not balanced it will flutter when and if hydraulic pressure is lost or in the case of a small light airplane a control cable brakes. Rudders are painted prior to installation because to balance them they must be laid flat and the rudder, when installed is mounted vertically. For those rudders that only have a coat of primer their weight and balance will be determined by calculating the weight of the paint used when the final livery is applied. When aircraft are repainted the SRM contains a chart that can be used to determine how much and where weight must be added to keep the runner balanced. Additionally there is a maximum weight a primary control surface can be and if it get too many coats of paint (or repairs) it must be completely stripped and repainted.
 
lincoln
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:12 am

So, stupid followup question time, when an airline changes their livery (or simply repaints after the 5-10 years that a paintjob lasrs) is the rudder taken off to be repainted? Is it rebalanced, or is that only done for the initial paint job?

Lincoln
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Dougloid
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 7):
Boeing has always pre-painted the rudders of all of the new commercial aircraft. There have been some exceptions with BBJ's or some VIP aircraft. It's one of the ways people can tell which airplane is their's before leaving the line.

Douglas used to prepaint them when the rudder was balanced.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
aileron11
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:28 am

I always thought the rudders are painted for identification purpose on the line SO everyone knows what a/c is being built for which airline never knew about the balancing learn something new every day.  Smile
Jersey Lou
 
greasespot
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting CessnaLady (Thread starter):
(Seems unlikely they would paint that part beforehand hoping that it matches the final paint job...)

They have to be pre-painted as the weight of the paint is more than the alowable weight change. If the change is more than a prescribe change they have to balance the rudder. By doing it before saves time because they do not have to remove it and re-balance it when it is painted. If for some reason the airplane is not delivererd to the original customer they have to take the rudder off and re-balance it if it is re-painted.

GS
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prebennorholm
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:38 am

The 777 rudder is made of carbon fibre composites while the fixed fin is a metal structure.

Often when building not too large composite structures, then you start with paint in the mould and apply the carbon fibre when the paint has cured in the mould.

The A300-600 for instance has an all composite fin and rudder. Here is an unpainted A300-600:


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Photo © Christopher Hammarborg



I don't know if Airbus and Boeing uses the "paint first in the mould" method, but I wouldn't wonder if that's the reason.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
3DoorsDown
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Aileron11 (Reply 29):
I always thought the rudders are painted for identification purpose on the line SO everyone knows what a/c is being built for which airline never knew about the balancing learn something new every day.

It never hurts to have a rudders paint job to tell you which airline it is, but that isn't the primary reason to do it. There are a few positions in the Final Assy building that the vertical isn't installed yet. If you are working in final you know which customers airplane you are working on with or without the vertical.

3DD
 
L-188
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting RedDragon (Reply 8):
The rudder is generally painted in advance, supposedly so it can be balanced properly before the rest of the aircraft is painted.



Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 9):
The rudder is pre-painted as it allows it to be more accurately balanced duing assembly. Boeing have been doing that for years.



Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 9):
Rudders are pre-painted due to the fact that the weight of the paint can effect the balance, which is very important on the rudder.



Quoting Jeb94 (Reply 18):
Any flight control surface that gets painted has to be balanced on almost all aircraft. The balance of these controls are critical and paint can add a significant amount of weight. There are several layers of paint as well, adding to the weight

Pretty much all right.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 31):
Often when building not too large composite structures, then you start with paint in the mould and apply the carbon fibre when the paint has cured in the mould.

Applies to any composite, fiberglass or carbon fiber.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 6):
Not all Boeings production lines are moving, the 747 one is but there are several that arent.

- The 747 began moving production in 2001.

- At the moment, the 737NG and 717 are both moving lines. When the 717 line closes in May, this will leave the 737NG. The 757 was converted to a moving line in 2002 before closure.

- The 777 is in the process of converting to a moving line. As the above post indicate, this will open in 2007. Once the 777 is converted to moving assembly, only the 767 will be manufactured in bays.

- The A320 is also undergoing a transformation to the moving assembly process. Anyone have a completion date?

- The 787 will debut as a moving line.
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nhgrafx
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:24 am

I just think its a beautiful sight to see such a magnificent bird coming together like that.
Is it weird I have a RemoveBeforeFlight pitot cover on my car rear view mirror?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:25 am

Well, the new B744-Beluga is built on base of used B744, but those aren´t for sale.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
474218
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:33 am

Could someone please explain what is meant by a moving production line? Or better yet describe how it works?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 36):
Well, the new B744-Beluga is built on base of used B744, but those aren´t for sale.

Boeing isn't doing the work on that though.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):
Now that the mystery has been solved, I have a question: Who can spot the teeny tiny people around the airplane? I can see only one so far -- the guy in the background in front of one of the two doors on the mezzanine to the left of the vertical stabilizer.

Which picture are you talking about??? In the 777 pic in the opening post at least 5 people became visible upon a quick first glance.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
Could someone please explain what is meant by a moving production line? Or better yet describe how it works?

I don't know the specifics, but the basic concept dates back to Henry Ford and building cars on an assembly line... rather than having several workers at each assembly station, he could have one person trained to put on one part as the car rolled by on the line, and thus, make more cars faster in the same amount of space. The process would have to be scaled up for aircraft, though.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:59 am

this may clear things up a bit about moving assembly lines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_line
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474218
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:05 am

Antoniemey,

Thank you, but are you saying that the line keeps moving, like an automobile production line. Are the planes on a conveyor belt like cars. I have worked six (6) different production lines and I am having a hard time picturing a moving production line for aircraft. Someone please help.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
Thank you, but are you saying that the line keeps moving, like an automobile production line. Are the planes on a conveyor belt like cars.

The line moves at a very, very slow rate of 2 inches per minute (for the 737), on supports moving on a track of sorts. Here is more from Boeing:

Moving Final Assembly Line Production

Moving line picture for 717:

ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
trex8
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:49 am

sl OT but NG has deliverd "new" E2C Hawkeyes which actually have salvaged parts from older stored/scrapped planes. these are always parts which are not fatigue life critical eg landing gear doors etc. dunno if commercial manufacturers do the same.
 
474218
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RE: Would Boeing Use Used Parts In New Planes? (photo)

Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:54 am

Atmx2000,

Thanks that really helps but now I have a lot more questions. I will start a new topic when I get them all down.

Carl

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