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RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:08 pm
by Boeing7E7
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 99):
It's been happening since 2001.

Enjoy it while it lasts.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:14 pm
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 99):
It's been happening since 2001.

That is because the WA restrictions prohibit the additional flights that would be added without the WA.

Think about it, its not that hard to realize that you cannot have it both ways.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:16 pm
by ikramerica
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 95):
Removing the Wright Amendment would end the debate. AA and Ft. Worth could chose to litigate to their heart's content, but we already have precedent for the continuing operation of DAL as a passenger facility.

I don't care about ending any damn debate. You are under the false assumption that airports should compete and DAL is necessary. You are wrong. The government says you are wrong, the cities said you are wrong, the voters who voted for bonds to build DFW say you are wrong.

DAL is pointless, it is old, it doesn't charge WN enough to operate there, and the land has better uses.

I could give a flying fig about WN or AA, but I do care that all this time and money is being wasted. Closing the airport is the best solution.

Closing it, BTW, won't end the debate. Nor would getting rid of Wright. It would just change the debate.

But closing it would at least make it final. No other options, no chance to get some damn Senator giving it a reprieve against the wishes of those who paid for the DFW.

We know how you feel about DAL. But it doesn't make you right. DFW is run poorly. They make bad arguments. But DFW is supposed to be the only commercial airport in that region, by design. The only solution is to make it so.

And since it's been "shown" that GA won't support DAL, it is therefor the best answer to close it completely, since it can't support itself with WN, and certainly won't be able to without them...

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:19 pm
by sccutler
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 55):
Please don't tell me there isn't a better use for a redundant, aging facility that was planned to be closed since DFWs inception?



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 87):
Quoting ScottB (Reply 60):
There was never a plan to close DAL completely, only to end commercial service there

But it's MY PLAN. The only way to solve it is to close it completely and convert it to other uses, which WILL bring in more revenue based on similar moves elsewhere both in the USA and internationally.

Silly, silly, SILLY boy.

There is this persistent and incomprehensibly boneheaded notion (exemplified by IKR's posts above) that Love Field's sole function is to serve Southwest Airlines.

Love Field is a vital and integral part of the aviation infrastructure, serving as a very heavily-used base for corporate aircraft, supporting a great many GA aircraft (I myself fly a DAL-base T210 regularly), and provides employment to thousands in aviation-related businesses.

One might expect to see the ludicrous and short-sighted idea that closing airports and redeveloping them into more houses and strip-malls is a good idea in a forum for ... what?... people in the land develoment and home building game?

But on an aviation board? Just silly; one expects a slightly higher level of core knowledge here (although one is all too often disappointed).

Besides all of which, DAL cannot be closed without violating federal law, as a federally-funded recipient of Airport Improvement Program grants.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:00 pm
by Boeing7E7
Quoting SCCutler (Reply 103):
Besides all of which, DAL cannot be closed without violating federal law, as a federally-funded recipient of Airport Improvement Program grants.

However, it's operations can be altered in terms of use should a joint authority assume control of DFW and DAL.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:50 pm
by dalneighbor
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 102):
I don't care about ending any damn debate. You are under the false assumption that airports should compete and DAL is necessary.

Wrong, airports compete everyday to attract new service. Any monopoly, whether its in the public sector or not is bad for consumers and citizens. DFW management is so bad because they don't have to be good. The wright Amendment limits DAL to only 9 states, meaning if you want to go anywhere else you HAVE TO USE DFW. That's what monopolies do, they remove any incentive for a competent and efficiently run facility that serves the best interest of the public not the business (AA) that is leasing space.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 102):
You are wrong. The government says you are wrong, the cities said you are wrong, the voters who voted for bonds to build DFW say you are wrong.

If all you say were true, DAL would be closed, WN operations at DAL would be a failure, cities wouldn't be sending letters of support for a repeal of Wright, consumer groups in Dallas and across the nation wouldn't be supporting a Wright repeal, and Congress wouldn't be loosening Wright restrictions and supporting outright repeal. Check into reality brother, Wright is yesterday's backroom political power play. Power to the people!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 102):
DAL is pointless, it is old, it doesn't charge WN enough to operate there, and the land has better uses.


As evidenced by the $50 million surplus of funds that the city aviation department is sitting on. DFW gave its surplusses back to American, DAL didn't do that.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 100):
Enjoy it while it lasts.

Enjoy your monoploy pricing power while it last. Say goodnight to Wright.

RE: A New Twist On The Wright Amendment Debate

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 12:54 am
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 105):
Wrong, airports compete everyday to attract new service. Any monopoly, whether its in the public sector or not is bad for consumers and citizens. DFW management is so bad because they don't have to be good. The wright Amendment limits DAL to only 9 states, meaning if you want to go anywhere else you HAVE TO USE DFW. That's what monopolies do, they remove any incentive for a competent and efficiently run facility that serves the best interest of the public not the business (AA) that is leasing space.

Hey Dalneighbor,

I challenge you to provide any instance you can where the City of Dallas has solicited any carrier for new air service from DAL since DFW was built.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 105):
If all you say were true, DAL would be closed, WN operations at DAL would be a failure, cities wouldn't be sending letters of support for a repeal of Wright, consumer groups in Dallas and across the nation wouldn't be supporting a Wright repeal, and Congress wouldn't be loosening Wright restrictions and supporting outright repeal. Check into reality brother, Wright is yesterday's backroom political power play. Power to the people!

There are many cities, consumer and civic groups along with business groups opposed to lifting restrictions at DAL. What is your point? That you think your opinion holds sway over all others?

You should also remember that both members of Congress and the Senate have warned that should Wright go away so will DAL. Be careful what you wish for.

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 103):
Love Field is a vital and integral part of the aviation infrastructure, serving as a very heavily-used base for corporate aircraft, supporting a great many GA aircraft (I myself fly a DAL-base T210 regularly), and provides employment to thousands in aviation-related businesses.

One might expect to see the ludicrous and short-sighted idea that closing airports and redeveloping them into more houses and strip-malls is a good idea in a forum for ... what?... people in the land develoment and home building game?

But on an aviation board? Just silly; one expects a slightly higher level of core knowledge here (although one is all too often disappointed).

Come on SC even lawyers can see excess and wasted resources. Even on an aviation board.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:53 am
by dalneighbor
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 106):
You should also remember that both members of Congress and the Senate have warned that should Wright go away so will DAL. Be careful what you wish for.

You're referring to the threats of Joe Barton and Senator Inhofe. Laughable and right out of the AA "we'll move 500 flights over to DAL" playbook. Do you really think anyone in Dallas would allow DAL to be shut down and lose such a massive contributor to the economy and tax base not to mention the number of jobs in Dallas related to all operations at DAL? Empty threats. Look at me right now, 'cuase I'm wishing upon a star that Wright goes away. Oh I'm being reckless with my wishes, wish, wish, wish. Now I'll run around the house with scissors.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:57 am
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 107):
You're referring to the threats of Joe Barton and Senator Inhofe. Laughable and right out of the AA "we'll move 500 flights over to DAL" playbook. Do you really think anyone in Dallas would allow DAL to be shut down and lose such a massive contributor to the economy and tax base not to mention the number of jobs in Dallas related to all operations at DAL? Empty threats. Look at me right now, 'cuase I'm wishing upon a star that Wright goes away. Oh I'm being reckless with my wishes, wish, wish, wish. Now I'll run around the house with scissors

Don't fall down or all those little WN planes in your head will spill out.

Yes Congress controls the funding for the airports. End FAA ATC at DAL the airport closes, No if's ands or buts.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:04 am
by dalneighbor
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 108):
Yes Congress controls the funding for the airports. End FAA ATC at DAL the airport closes, No if's ands or buts.

Never happen. Who in congress would be in favor of such a move? You may be able to get Joe Barton, and Kay Bailey but its going to take a lot more than that and you don't have it. Back to my reckless wishing, watch out.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 7:52 am
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 109):
Never happen. Who in congress would be in favor of such a move? You may be able to get Joe Barton, and Kay Bailey but its going to take a lot more than that and you don't have it. Back to my reckless wishing, watch out.

Go and read the papers to find out who will take care of business for us.

FYI,

The DNC is going after two of your Senate sponsors. At least one of them will be gone after the next election. At least one of the Senators from Arizona and Nevada will be looking for work before too long.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:11 am
by Boeing7E7
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 105):
Enjoy your monopoly pricing power while it last. Say goodnight to Wright.

For the millionth time, airports are by their nature a monopoly. The investment level and land use requirements are far too great for them to be competitive by nature.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:03 am
by dalneighbor
quote=Cjpark,reply=108]Yes Congress controls the funding for the airports. End FAA ATC at DAL the airport closes, No if's ands or buts.[/quote]

From the Dallas Aviation Department Website:http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/lovenotes/lovefacts.html

• Airport generates more than $2 billion annually to the Dallas economy.
• Estimated 24,243 jobs attributable to Love Field. Self-supporting through
reasonable fees and charges with no cost to the taxpayer.

Seven full service fixed base operators (FBOs) at Love Field provide general aviation users with a wide variety of services including fuel, maintenance, hangar rentals, and charters. FBOs at Love Field are well equipped to handle executive needs providing first class amenities such as meeting rooms, car rentals, limousine service and restaurants.

Love Field serves as the front door to Dallas for seven million passengers a year providing a vital link in the economy of the City of Dallas, the region and the nation.



In addition, if operations are restricted in any additional manner at DAL, I believe the City of Dallas will be on the hook for all leasehold improvements to various lessors located at the airport. The shut down of DAL would be a financial atomic bomb to the city of Dallas. Don't ask me for a link, because I don't have it. It's my understanding that this is the situation at DAL.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:26 am
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 112):
From the Dallas Aviation Department Website:http://www.dallas-lovefield.com/lovenotes/lovefacts.html

• Airport generates more than $2 billion annually to the Dallas economy.
• Estimated 24,243 jobs attributable to Love Field. Self-supporting through
reasonable fees and charges with no cost to the taxpayer.

Seven full service fixed base operators (FBOs) at Love Field provide general aviation users with a wide variety of services including fuel, maintenance, hangar rentals, and charters. FBOs at Love Field are well equipped to handle executive needs providing first class amenities such as meeting rooms, car rentals, limousine service and restaurants.

Love Field serves as the front door to Dallas for seven million passengers a year providing a vital link in the economy of the City of Dallas, the region and the nation.



In addition, if operations are restricted in any additional manner at DAL, I believe the City of Dallas will be on the hook for all leasehold improvements to various lessors located at the airport. The shut down of DAL would be a financial atomic bomb to the city of Dallas. Don't ask me for a link, because I don't have it. It's my understanding that this is the situation at DAL.

And yet those FBO's cannot generate the revenue to keep the airport open without WN.

And once again the property taxes that could be generated from the sales of the land at WN would dwarf the so called sales taxes generated from the PAX at WN. Never mind the fact that the same PAX would spend the same money in Dallas if they flew in from DFW as compared to DAL. It is a win win situation to shut Love down.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:17 am
by dalneighbor
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 113):
And yet those FBO's cannot generate the revenue to keep the airport open without WN.

And once again the property taxes that could be generated from the sales of the land at WN would dwarf the so called sales taxes generated from the PAX at WN. Never mind the fact that the same PAX would spend the same money in Dallas if they flew in from DFW as compared to DAL. It is a win win situation to shut Love down.

Do you seriously see an upside for the city of Dallas? The loss of jobs, the loss of taxable business property including the entire WN fleet and all the checks it would be writting to those that have made leasehold improvements in excess of $1 billion dollars. I'm sure the owners of the Legend terminal and parking garage would love to have the city pay them back for what they spent building those facilities. Can you imagine the cost of the other FBO facilities and the entire WN campus? You won't be able to overcome that cost by building houses on DAL property.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:36 am
by cjpark
Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 114):
Do you seriously see an upside for the city of Dallas? The loss of jobs, the loss of taxable business property including the entire WN fleet and all the checks it would be writting to those that have made leasehold improvements in excess of $1 billion dollars. I'm sure the owners of the Legend terminal and parking garage would love to have the city pay them back for what they spent building those facilities. Can you imagine the cost of the other FBO facilities and the entire WN campus? You won't be able to overcome that cost by building houses on DAL property.

Absolutely. The tax revenue made by the city on DAL in its present form is chump change compared to what can be realized.

RE: American Is Willing To Lose Money To Prove A Point

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:04 pm
by dalneighbor
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 115):
Absolutely. The tax revenue made by the city on DAL in its present form is chump change compared to what can be realized.

You are either dishonest about your answer, or have as much hatred for the city of Dallas as you do for WN.