AF's Next Move In The USA

AF773 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:24 am

Hi all,

A lot was said about new routes for AF in the states. Any new thoughts on possible routes for the future and which aircraft could be used?

SEA, DEN, SLC or any other?

[Edited 2006-01-17 16:38:34]

B742 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:37 am

I have heard a lot of rumours about a CDG-SEA service, so maybe that will be a future destination Smile

I think SLC could be a good route, but in codeshare with DL. Either DL or AF would send aircraft on SLC-CDG, but would codeshare for connections at CDG and SLC Smile

Rob!

ARGinLON · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:40 am

Not much left apart from SEA and DFW....

STT757 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:54 am

I would list the possible new AF destinations as follows..

1.) Seattle
2.) Denver
3.) Dallas/Ft.worth

Long shot perhaps Las Vegas?..

cloud4000 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:57 am

There's no money in LAS, the yields are just too low.

Flying Belgian · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:59 am

SEA in code-share with NW would definitely make sense !! The market may be even more open if SK is withdrawing.

With an A332 to begin with !!

FB.

Mikey711MN · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:06 am

Granted, I'm a bit biased in favor of my old hometown, but what about MSP? It's an airport with relatively few transatlantic options (only KL 3x daily for transatlantic connections and an eventual return of LGW daily), a ton of available feed through NW's extensive domestic operations, and ample international facilities. And I think NW is stretched a bit thin in their widebodies--not to mention finances--to start the route themselves.

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that an MSP-CDG route wasn't started sooner after NW joined the Skyteam alliance.

-Mike

gunsontheroof · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 5):
SEA in code-share with NW would definitely make sense !! The market may be even more open if SK is withdrawing.

SK has been at SEA for decades now, so I don't really see them withdrawing. On the other hand, I keep hearing conflicting reports of how profitable the route is, and if it is indeed performing poorly, SK might be better off sending their metal elsewhere. If that were to happen, I think you'd see AF jump onto CDG-SEA in a heartbeat, although I suspect they'll begin SEA service within the next few years regardless of whether SK or any of the other players in the SEA-Europe market jump ship.

SRT75 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 6):
MSP? It's an airport with relatively few transatlantic options (only KL 3x daily for transatlantic connections

If you're talking about the AMS service, it's all NW equipment with a KL code-share.

Unless/until NW and KL split up, no chance that AF would go into MSP. AF and KL are one, and it wouldn't make much sense to have flights to both hubs (CDG and AMS) from MSP.

I would suspect it will be 1-stop to Paris from MSP for the long term. Either through DTW on NW or AMS on KL/AF.

drerx7 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:19 am

Haven't they tried DFW twice already? Or maybe that was once--you think they will retry once again so soon?

AF773 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:34 am

I agree,

I think MSP could be a very good new route for AF with the 332.

Regarding LAS, Vegas is not a big destination for the French.

Concorde001 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting AF773 (Reply 10):
Regarding LAS, Vegas is not a big destination for the French.

I don't think that really matters. AF doesn't rely heavily on French passengers (O&D traffic) for its longhaul flights - AF successfully uses its CDG hub to get loads of passengers to connect from all over the world, so Las Vegas may work - but I think better yields could be found elsewhere!

RL757PVD · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
There's no money in LAS

Im sure im not alone in saying that there is plenty of my money in vegas!, at least it used to be my money...

Id like to see SLC... to help boost offerings and feed from that hub.

Rookinla · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:17 am

I'm possibly barking up the wrong tree here, but what about MCO? I know that it gets a lot of tourist-related traffic but there is a sizable Middle Eastern population in Central Florida, as well as a DL Focus City. Skyteam, anyone? Connections to the Middle East through CDG? Until 9/11 MCO had Saudi Arabian and El Al and Kuwait had just received Govt approval to run to MCO as an extension of its JFK leg. Keep in mind that FI is switching airports and the EI charter service is ending...Possibilities? Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

MAH4546 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 13):
I'm possibly barking up the wrong tree here, but what about MCO? I know that it gets a lot of tourist-related traffic but there is a sizable Middle Eastern population in Central Florida, as well as a DL Focus City. Skyteam, anyone? Connections to the Middle East through CDG? Until 9/11 MCO had Saudi Arabian and El Al and Kuwait had just received Govt approval to run to MCO as an extension of its JFK leg. Keep in mind that FI is switching airports and the EI charter service is ending...Possibilities? Thoughts? Thanks in advance!

Yield is still pretty weak. Air France likely would not do well. El Al flew to Orlando through most of the late 1990s. At one point it was a weekly TLV-MCO-MIA-TLV flight. Never really successful.

Rookinla · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:33 am

Thanks for your input there. You know MCO aviation quite well. Are there any additional foreign carriers, in your opinion, that should give MCO a try at this point? I know that MCO is a changing market and that business travel is still spotty at best. But with all of the different nationalities moving to the area (seemingly in mass numbers) and the growing tech sector in the city, how far out do you see MCO having to wait for higher yields, more foreign carriers, etc? I appreciate your opinions...

AV8AJET · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:34 am

I just can't see why AF or DL have not yet started any transatlantic routes out of SLC? Maybe CVG will drop and SLC could take over. CVG is to close to ATL and I think SLC would be a better place to grow for DL.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 11):
AF doesn't rely heavily on French passengers

*falls out of chair laughing at the above ridiculous statement* Silly

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 16):
I just can't see why AF or DL have not yet started any transatlantic routes out of SLC?

I can.

Virtually non-existent O&D plus most large catchment-area markets (LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX, DEN, LAS, etc) already having several Euro-nonstops in their own right.

brink777 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:51 am

SAN just joking how pathetic the 8th largest city in the states with know nonstop service to europe it doesnt matter that theres airport issues SAN can handle the 777

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:56 am

...oh, and almost forgot:

AF should give in and finally come scheduled to MSY
duck

RL757PVD · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:54 am

The only viabline translantic route for SLC in the near term would be CDG because of the codeshare "barbell" network on both ends. I.E ...BZN-SLC-CDG-GVA.

Granted we are dealing with intl feed for alot ofsmaller cities so demand isnt THAT strong, but i think a 763 or 330 could be supported.

texdravid · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Drerx7 (Reply 9):
Haven't they tried DFW twice already? Or maybe that was once--you think they will retry once again so soon?

They started at the most unfortunate time, in the summer of 2001, and 9/11 shut down the route and it hasn't returned since.

IMHO, I don't see it returning any time soon, for several reasons.

1). AA is just too strong at its fortress hub at DFW. BA and LH have been longterm players and have somehow survived. I feel that LH, in particular, survives on the Indian/Pakistani expatriates flying back to India as a one-stop through FRA.

2). IAH is just one hour down south by plane, and it is a long-standing AF route since the inception of IAH and in fact is increasing its service.

3). No oil in DFW, as compared to IAH. No tourism angle for French citizens.

Thus, I'm afraid we in DFW have to rely on AA service or fly out of IAH. C'mon, do you really have confidence in those DFW officials to land new transatlantic service? I don't.

Trvlr · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Brink777 (Reply 18):
SAN just joking how pathetic the 8th largest city in the states with know nonstop service to europe it doesnt matter that theres airport issues SAN can handle the 777

It does matter, sadly. SAN can handle the 777, but not without weight restrictions. This renders transatlantic flights unprofitable.

If San Diego had another airport, we'd have probably seen several nonstop flights to Europe by now.

Aaron G.

fewsolarge · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:13 am

I think the two first predictions remain the most likely: DFW and SEA. DFW because of its sheer size; SEA because of size, mix of business travelers, and potential for connections with current or future partners.

AF can tap NW's markets from DTW ... no need for MSP at this point.

MCO might be a good wildcard ... low fares, but full planes and good connection potential with DL.

SLC-CDG will happen, but it could still be years, and AF won't be the one to start it.

CRGsFuture · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Fewsolarge:
I think the two first predictions remain the most likely: DFW and SEA. DFW because of its sheer size; SEA because of size, mix of business travelers, and potential for connections with current or future partners.

AF can tap NW's markets from DTW ... no need for MSP at this point.

MCO might be a good wildcard ... low fares, but full planes and good connection potential with DL.

SLC-CDG will happen, but it could still be years, and AF won't be the one to start it.

The best bet really for AF is SEA. Besides for business there is a lot of tourist destinations in the area, the Pacific Northwest also has alot of wonderful natural landscapes. And the fact that at SEA, AF can have a splendid codeshare system with NW and Alaska, for even more destinations.

MCO will never happen, too little yields and the fact that France has a Disneyland.

SLC is more aimed for a Delta CDG route and so AF has no need to go there, and finally DFW is too controlled by AA and BA, both part of OneWorld which would cancel out AF.

To me SEA is the likeliest place because its strategic for SkyTeam and allows for tourism in the Pacific Northwest

rwsea · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 23):
I think the two first predictions remain the most likely: DFW and SEA. DFW because of its sheer size; SEA because of size, mix of business travelers, and potential for connections with current or future partners.

I think SEA is a possibility if AF/KL once again start codesharing with AS/QX. The market could probably support the flight on its own, but the connections would make the flight much more successful.

As far as DFW goes, yes it is a big city, but doesn't AA already fly DFW-CDG? Why would AF want to start a route to a non-partner's fortress hub when that non-partner operates the exact same route?

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 21):
No oil in DFW

...guess you've never heard of a tiny lil' organization called ExxonMobile?

Quoting Fewsolarge (Reply 23):
SLC-CDG will happen

For your sake, I sincerely hope you aren't planning a trip to LAS any time soon...

Rookinla · Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 24):
MCO will never happen, too little yields and the fact that France has a Disneyland.

Yields may not be high enough yet but over time they probably will be. Remember that we are talking about AF's future US plans. There are only limited US options for them based upon sustainability. You have to believe that AF will look at Skyteam connection cities for their most of their future US growth. Right now, the unserved cities that fit the bill include SEA, MSP, MEM, CVG (year round service), SLC and yes MCO. SEA is a real possibility...probably good yields and little competition. MEM...uh, no. MSP could be possible but there are several AF gateways not too far away that would make this route unreasonable and unprofitable. SLC will most likely get CDG service in the future, but probably via DL...but who knows? Not strong O&D but good connections. But if DEN gets service, forget it. CVG is probably a hub that DL will significantly downsize in the future so that option probably is not likely. When considering MCO, Paris having a Disneyland really has little to do with whether or not AF comes to MCO. MCO offers pretty good connection opportunities throughout the US. It is #4 in Domestic O&D traffic in the US, #14 in overall US passenger traffic (approx 34 million) and #24 in the World based upon passenger traffic. A MCO-CDG route could not exist solely on O&D numbers. I will fully admit that. But when you consider the Skyteam connection traffic there, you have to wonder whether a 3 to 4 times weekly flight would work. Ask yourself this question: If you have to connect, would you rather connect in ATL or MCO?

twolz2rn · Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:11 am

This may have been anwsered already, but why is CVG a seasonal service?

Rookinla · Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:21 am

Doesn't DL run a daily 777 CVG-CDG? If so, overcapacity could be the problem. Not enough need for two dailies except in season. While I'm posting, does anybody have access to O&D numbers internationally? I'm mainly interested in MCO-CDG, TPA-CDG and LAS-CDG. Just curious how the numbers work out...Thanks...

CRGsFuture · Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Rookinla:
When considering MCO, Paris having a Disneyland really has little to do with whether or not AF comes to MCO. MCO offers pretty good connection opportunities throughout the US. It is #4 in Domestic O&D traffic in the US, #14 in overall US passenger traffic (approx 34 million) and #24 in the World based upon passenger traffic. A MCO-CDG route could not exist solely on O&D numbers. I will fully admit that. But when you consider the Skyteam connection traffic there, you have to wonder whether a 3 to 4 times weekly flight would work. Ask yourself this question: If you have to connect, would you rather connect in ATL or MCO?

But you have to remember half of those connections are Delta Connection and the other head to cities that are already major hubs of DL save for a couple of ones. I'd fly into ATL because that is the superhub of DL operations and pretty much connects with most of the country. But that's me, plus the fact Paris has a Disneyland razz

hz747300 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
...oh,

Big enough logo for Fred? Smile

What about PHX? Any chance that AF would go to PHX?

BNinMSY · Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:34 am

MSY needs AF! Many a crew change and still a number of oil related employees in the area - despite that wench Katrina!

incitatus · Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 4):
There's no money in LAS, the yields are just too low.

At the very least this is a statement without evidence to support it. LAS has a lot of domestic competition at rock bottom fares. But international service is limited and Virgin lacks a European network to feed its Vegas flight. If Air France can serve St. Marteen, which is a very touristy destination, why can't it serve Vegas successfully? Vegas is not all made of poor people. Any second rate show ticket costs at least $100. There are lots of $400/night hotels in the city. Not all tourists are equal.

USAF757300 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 31):
What about PHX? Any chance that AF would go to PHX?

I really couldnt see AF starting PHX. LH however, I think that could be a very interesting new thread.

b6sea · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:05 pm

I think you'll see AF in SEA very soon. The European routes from SEA must be doing moderately well because BA's LHR route is going 9x weekly for summer and someone has to pick up the slack now that Aeroflot's gone. Also if you think about it, for a metro area of at least 3.5million people with a well above average income and many well established worldwide corporations, SEA doesnt have that many euro-flights (only 3daily flights to Europe) and if SK pulls out ( I HOPE THEY DONT!) then their down to 2. Plus as has been said before, connections with AS are sitting there waiting to be tapped. Only reason I couldn't see this flight happening is that the AF/KL network is already tapped with the NW flight to AMS.

-Chans

B4REAL · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 29):
Doesn't DL run a daily 777 CVG-CDG?

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 29):
This may have been anwsered already, but why is CVG a seasonal service?

DL 777 CVG-CDG is year round (at least for now)

AF CVG service is seasonal.

Summer season there are 2x CVG-CDG with DL and AF. Nice view when the 777 and A333 are in same sight of each other @ CVG.

san747 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 22):
It does matter, sadly. SAN can handle the 777, but not without weight restrictions. This renders transatlantic flights unprofitable.

If San Diego had another airport, we'd have probably seen several nonstop flights to Europe by now.

Couldn't the flight operate with an A330-200? That seems like a more fitting-sized aircraft (capacity-wise) for CDG-SAN than a 777-200, anyway... (Though I'll take a 777 anyday!)

Coronado990 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 22):
It does matter, sadly. SAN can handle the 777, but not without weight restrictions. This renders transatlantic flights unprofitable.

If San Diego had another airport, we'd have probably seen several nonstop flights to Europe by now.

If an airline really wants to serve San Diego, they'll find a way. They just have to be creative. The 777 can fly non-stop from Europe to San Diego. That's half the battle. California is a hot destination and there is no reason Southern California shouldn't be served by more than one international airport. San Diego and Ontario should work together. We have something Ontario needs and Ontario has something San Diego needs. San Diego has the passengers and Ontario has the runway plus better cargo facilities. Customs could be done at San Diego and re-fueling can be done at Ontario.

Perhaps an incentive such as LAWA and the SD Regional Airport Authority splitting landing fee's between the two airports would entice service from both Europe and Asia. Who knows, there might be more people getting on at Ontario warranting it's own service someday. It might be a good way to see if ONT has a chance of taking off.

thepilot730 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:41 pm

Why couldn't DEN receive service from Paris? LH has FRA-DEN leg nonstop for sometime now. I believe that they must be doing well since it is year round service 7 days a week with a 747. Does anyone see AF servicing DEN in the near future?

Please give reason behind your opinion.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:56 pm

Quoting BNinMSY (Reply 32):
MSY needs AF!

Hear Hear!

Quoting B4real (Reply 36):
Nice view when the 777 and A333 are in same sight of each other @ CVG.

no one flies the A333 into CVG

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 38):
Customs could be done at San Diego and re-fueling can be done at Ontario.

and the airlines say (through their actions rather than their words)... "why bother with either of them, when both can be done concurrently at LAX?"

diamond · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:06 pm

" ... Big enough logo for Fred? ... "

Nothing is big enough for Fred. Smile

N1120A · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 31):
What about PHX? Any chance that AF would go to PHX?

PHX can only really handle 1 large non-hub carrier flight, and BA fills that need. The LH pull out showed that. The 787/A350 should change that

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 38):
If an airline really wants to serve San Diego, they'll find a way. They just have to be creative. The 777 can fly non-stop from Europe to San Diego. That's half the battle. California is a hot destination and there is no reason Southern California shouldn't be served by more than one international airport. San Diego and Ontario should work together. We have something Ontario needs and Ontario has something San Diego needs. San Diego has the passengers and Ontario has the runway plus better cargo facilities. Customs could be done at San Diego and re-fueling can be done at Ontario.

ONT has a customs FIS that is probably just as large as the one at SAN. There is no way an airline wants to futz around with refueling when they can just fly to LAX. If an airline wanted to serve the SAN area THAT bad, they would fly into TIJ. San Diego needs to wait for the 787 or Miramar or both

Quoting San747 (Reply 37):
Couldn't the flight operate with an A330-200? That seems like a more fitting-sized aircraft (capacity-wise) for CDG-SAN than a 777-200, anyway... (Though I'll take a 777 anyday!)

Actually, the 772 is fine for SAN capacity wise. The issue is taking off with a full passenger load and a full cargo load. It can't happen, and that is why BA pulled out. The A332 would actually have a harder time making it back to Europe.

MSY is actually a market absolutely ripe for a Euro flight. It is the US headquarters for Royal Dutch Shell, a company that has actually expanded its presence in the city post-Katrina. The metro area is almost at full strength, another significant part is only 1 hour up the road in Baton Rouge, the city has business people pouring in and the population is coming back. Add that to the cruises, movies and tourists coming both for the old Big Easy as well as eco-type tourists who want to see just what happened to some places. Add to all of this the fact that levy reconstruction is likely to be done by a Dutch firm and that adds up to AF/KL having both the tourist and business demand into the city. I would go so far as to say the city can support flights to at least 2 European cities, particularly if a legacy decides to open a focus here.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
MSY is actually a market absolutely ripe for a Euro flight.

We tell, they ignore. *sigh* Sad

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
It is the US headquarters for Royal Dutch Shell

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
Add to all of this the fact that levy reconstruction is likely to be done by a Dutch firm

...and yet, friggin' KLM/Privat decide to send yet another nonstop to-- wait on it-- HOUSTON! mad

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
I would go so far as to say the city can support flights to at least 2 European cities

Could certainly see MSY supporting a global legacy Euro-carrier in tandem with scheduled-charter service by the likes of MyTravel, ThomasCook, etc.

Not so sure about two legacies gunning it out here, on just O&D and de facto connections though.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
particularly if a legacy decides to open a focus here.

*cough*
UA

HPLASOps · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:05 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 17):
Virtually non-existent O&D plus most large catchment-area markets (LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX, DEN, LAS, etc) already having several Euro-nonstops in their own right.

LAS has several Euro markets? VS's LAS-LGW and BD's LAS-MAN are the only I can think of. Forget the statisitcs, my gut feeling says there's a market for CDG-LAS.

ConcordeBoy · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 44):
VS's LAS-LGW and BD's LAS-MAN are the only I can think of.

What's your point? ...last I checked, those two alone constitute "several" Yeah sure

That, and the scheduled charters you're forgetting about:
Condor, MyTravel, etc.

hz747300 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting USAF757300 (Reply 34):
I really couldnt see AF starting PHX. LH however, I think that could be a very interesting new thread.

You're probably right. I spent 12 years in Arizona and did not meet a single French person, not even in college. It seemed a bigger destination for Northern Europeans, the window blind factory I worked at in Casa Grande, was Dutch, and the senior management were all Dutch transplants.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 33):
At the very least this is a statement without evidence to support it.

There is lots of money in Vegas, yes, hotels are pricey relatively speaking and the shows are expensive too. However, it is primarily a tourist destination, with an endless supply of European themed hotels. If you are from Paris, why would you travel 5000 miles to visit, voila, Paris? That said, there is probably room one more leisure/charter carrier from Europe, but the tourists in Vegas want to save their money for hotels, shows, miniature golf, hookers, AYCE buffets, and illicit substances, not paying for a premium carrier, which Air France is.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 12):
Im sure im not alone in saying that there is plenty of my money in vegas!, at least it used to be my money...

The only time I lost money faster than in Vegas was at an adult club Germany.

MAH4546 · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:35 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 46):
You're probably right. I spent 12 years in Arizona and did not meet a single French person, not even in college.

It has nothing to do with that. You probably aren't going to find many French people in Atlanta, Detroit, or Cincinnati. In fact, very few US cities have anything near a significant French community - NYC, Miami, Boston, maybe a handful of others.

It has do with other factors. In the case of Air France, things like local demand from that city to Paris, and, perhaps more importantly, local demand to Africa and the Middle East, where AF has a very strong network. French ex-pat communities don't fill any of AF's USA flights.

N1120A · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 44):
LAS has several Euro markets? VS's LAS-LGW and BD's LAS-MAN are the only I can think of. Forget the statisitcs, my gut feeling says there's a market for CDG-LAS.

Like Fred said, other than LAS-LGW and LAS-MAN, you also have Condor operating scheduled flights to FRA about half the year.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 43):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 42):
particularly if a legacy decides to open a focus here.

*cough*
UA

We should make a chart, a la widebodyphotog

N1120A · Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:46 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 47):
It has nothing to do with that. You probably aren't going to find many French people in Atlanta, Detroit, or Cincinnati. In fact, very few US cities have anything near a significant French community - NYC, Miami, Boston, maybe a handful of others.

It has do with other factors. In the case of Air France, things like local demand from that city to Paris, and, perhaps more importantly, local demand to Africa and the Middle East, where AF has a very strong network. French ex-pat communities don't fill any of AF's USA flights.

Total agreement there Mark. The reason LAX-CDG flights never work for US carriers is because AF controls a large percentage of the US-based premium traffic. In fact, ex pats don't fill any flights to Europe, at least not ex pat US-Europe O&D. What fills European flights are tourists, O&D business, Middle East and African O&D (LAX based Iranians are the prime example of this and are the reason for the sheer number of 747s sent in by European carriers) and (particularly for AF/KL) oil traffic. Yet another reason for at least 1 MSY-Europe widebody + 1 PrivatAir type flight.

[Edited 2006-01-18 07:52:00]

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