JAL To Slash Another Four Int'l Routes!

ktachiya · Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:45 am

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20060119-00000321-kyodo-bus_all

This is the link in Japanese for all of you that can read Japanese. If not, I will continue with the usual translation that I do.

On 1/19, Japan Airlines has announced that they will withdraw their service from 4 international destinations including its KIX-LAX routes. This is due to the fact that because of all their mechanical troubles, passengers have avoided flying on JAL. They have cancelled 10 routes over the past year, and this kind of event is unprecedented. They plan to focus on operating its profitable routes to earn the company cash.
The KIX-LAX runs will be stopped in October of this year. In addition, its NRT-LAS-LAX-NRT (3 times weekly) will be stopped from September. In addition, they will stop their Hiroshima-Seoul routes, and Komatsu-Seoul routes from the end of March.
In addition, the KIX-BNE-SYD routes are being reviewed currently and might be stopped as early as next march. In order to prevent passengers in the Kansai region being affected heavily, they Japan Airlines is talking about talking to other airlines flying similar routes to increase capacity on these routes.

I guess this is inevitable but this is CRAZY sad!!!! My hometown is Kobe, next to the neighboring city of Osaka, but this means that it will be impossible to get to North America on a JAL flight because they also stopped their KIX-ORD operations a few years back. In addition, I have flown on the KIX-BNE-SYD-KIX sector, many many times and I guess this is inevitable. The plane only had about 150 pax every time I flew on them.

I hope the best to JAL and hope they survive!!!

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cloud4000 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:59 am

I'm surprised they're cutting KIX-LAX, you would think that it was a profitable route given the business travelers that ply that route.

b6sea · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:08 am

I havent heard much about JAL recently... are they having problems or is this just some early spring cleaning of superfluous routes? Sad to hear that the KIX-LAX flight... on the bright side, maybe that will free up a plane or two for a NGO-SEA flight that's been rumoured for some time.

-Chans

airbuseric · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:17 am

Ahh, good decision to cut in routes which are financially negative for the company. This will make some 744 frames available for conversion to Freighters soon. For the time being, JL should go the way in making money, on every place they can. And if they've to stop those routes, they will have a reason for sure to do this.
Eric

BigGSFO · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:17 am

It would be nice for them to return to DFW and perhaps take over AA's second DFW-NRT flight. AA, of course would code-share. This way AA can allocate those 2 777's elsewhere while still operating 2 daily flights (1 on AA metal, the other on JL metal).

N79969 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:26 am

Maybe the 787 will make some of these routes viable again.

wrighbrothers · Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:24 am

Does this mean that they are leaving LAS all together ?

Wrighbrothers

ktachiya · Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 1):
I'm surprised they're cutting KIX-LAX, you would think that it was a profitable route given the business travelers that ply that route

I know, I thought the same. Maybe they could at least downsize and continue the route? Or reduce frequencies?

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 6):
Does this mean that they are leaving LAS all together ?

The article sounds like it!!! They three time weekly NRT-LAS-LAX-NRT flight is being cut.

BH346 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:38 am

It is very disappointing to hear that JAL has to axe more routes. If I'm not mistake, with TG cutting KIX-LAX and now with JAL cutting the route, this will leave the KIX-LAX market with no nonstop service.

cloud4000 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting BH346 (Reply 8):
It is very disappointing to hear that JAL has to axe more routes. If I'm not mistake, with TG cutting KIX-LAX and now with JAL cutting the route, this will leave the KIX-LAX market with no nonstop service.

Doesn't ANA ply the KIX-LAX route too?

AussieItaliano · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting BH346 (Reply 8):
this will leave the KIX-LAX market with no nonstop service.

That's sad, considering it once had 4 carriers flying the route (TG, JL, NH, UA).

MAH4546 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting B6sea (Reply 2):
on the bright side, maybe that will free up a plane or two for a NGO-SEA flight that's been rumoured for some time.

ANA, not JAL, has expressed interest in Nagoya-Seattle.

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 9):

Doesn't ANA ply the KIX-LAX route too?

No. JAL is the only airline on the Osaka-Los Angeles route. This especially makes the cut shocking. I wouldn't be shocked, however, to see United or ANA fill the void. Thai was flying LAX-KIX until just a few weeks ago, replaced with non-stops to Bangkok.

N79969 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:33 am

10 years ago both UA and NW also flew to LAX out of KIX. I think the real big loser is the city of Osaka. They have been falling behind Tokyo and the decline just got a bit worse.

HKGKaiTak · Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:16 am

It's certainly sad news about the KIX-Oz route ... it's just unfortunate the numbers aren't there to make the route viable. There was a press release by the Australian Tourism Minister Fran Bailey yesterday, and I think that points to how much leisure tourism accounts for on that route rather than business traffic.

Carpethead · Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:32 am

Japanese population is now declining and JAL is in the red, so all routes not making a profit are suspectible for cuts. That's reality.

Perhaps with NH taking delivery of couple of 772ER this year or a couple displaced from NRT can be put on the KIX-LAX. Also remember UA has a new NGO-SFO service that has cut into traffic to the US west coast from central Japan.

Komatsu & Hiroshima (HIJ) -ICN routes are not daily. HIJ-ICN competes with OZ A321 that operates on a daily basis. OZ or KE will probably pick-up the Komatsu-ICN route.

Trvlr · Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:39 am

I'm really starting to get worried about JAL. Hopefully the oneworld partnership will bring in extra business, but I'm feeling more and more like the airline is having a hard time coping with the 21st century (in the literal not figurative sense).

Trimming the fat from the route network is a good idea, but I find it hard to believe that nobody can make money on KIX-LAX. There must be something wrong with JAL if it can't turn a profit on a route as seemingly important as this.

Aaron G.

aaway · Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 15):
Trimming the fat from the route network is a good idea, but I find it hard to believe that nobody can make money on KIX-LAX. There must be something wrong with JAL if it can't turn a profit on a route as seemingly important as this.

From what I've read anecdotally, JAL is still having issues with JAS merger. As far as LAX-KIX, I wonder why a triple 7 isn't being considered? Anyhow, I'll ask someone from JL's staff at LAX. Perhaps some light will be shed.

MDorBust · Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:22 am

Shame.

I've been on that KIX-LAX flight many times and I am certainly not looking forward to haveing to take a flight throught NRT for future travels.

commavia · Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:46 am

If only AA had a spare 777 lying around, maybe they could take a crack at LAX-KIX ...

Neverest · Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:20 am

I wonder why JAL is having problems. Normally they should be the dominant player in their home market. But I remember from my experience of living in Japan in the mid-80s that JAL service, including in First Class, was nothing to give credit to Japan. Their cost base must be very high working out from Tokyo and inflexible labor practices. Also their attachment exclusively to Boeing may have something to do?

klkla · Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Neverest (Reply 19):
Also their attachment exclusively to Boeing may have something to do?

What would that possibly have to do with anything? All it means is that they have better performing, more fuel efficient aircraft Wink

MDorBust · Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Neverest (Reply 19):
Also their attachment exclusively to Boeing may have something to do?

ANA doesn't have a particular love for Airbus either if you hadn't noticed.

cloud4000 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Neverest (Reply 19):
I wonder why JAL is having problems. Normally they should be the dominant player in their home market. But I remember from my experience of living in Japan in the mid-80s that JAL service, including in First Class, was nothing to give credit to Japan. Their cost base must be very high working out from Tokyo and inflexible labor practices. Also their attachment exclusively to Boeing may have something to do?

I know labor costs are high in Japan, but I believe they've started hiring a lot of foreign flight attendants, mostly from Southeast Asian countries.

tundra767 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:22 am

When I was flying for ATA we use to deadhead on JAL to KIX all the time from LAX and the flight was always packed! I am suprised!

Neverest · Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 21):

It may be reasoned that due to, Boeing no matter what mindset, and exclusive reliance of Japanese airlines on Boeing aircraft, it may be hard for them to get really competitive prices for their planes. The reasons for this are varied, including extensive work sharing by Japanese companies with Boeing, with resultant pressure to buy Boeing.

ikramerica · Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Neverest (Reply 19):
Also their attachment exclusively to Boeing may have something to do?

It only took 19 replies before a Frenchman started an A v. B war.

Where were they supposed to get their 400+ passenger aircraft over the last 40 years, if you would be so kind to enlighten us. If only the A380 had been available in 1985, JAL would be in great shape today!

centrair · Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:12 pm

The thing that kills JAL is that they have so many agreements with the big travel agents in Japan (Kintetsu, JTB, etc) for block seating in Y. They have a fleet that is, in my opinion, too big for the market. Big not in numbers of planes but capacity. The days when flights had to stop in Japan for fuel are almost gone. The days when you had only the choice of JAL or ANA are gone. They have to change.

UA, AA, NW have all increased service at NRT and expanded at other airports. European and Asian carriers have increased service to Japan. Other factors include opening of markets outside of Osaka and Tokyo. This fractures the market.

Example. If you want to fly from Sendai to North America. You are better off flying ANA to NGO and connecting to UA than trying to go via KIX or NRT, which have virtually no domestic connections. If you fly via Tokyo from Sendai, you have to fly to HND, take a train to NRT (1+ hours) then recheck- in. Its two tickets. The other option is taking a train to NRT from Sendai which takes too much time.

JL just does not have the power it once had in Japan.

Neverest · Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):

It only took 19 replies before a Frenchman started an A v. B war.

I may be French, but with my American education and years of residence in US, probably I am not much different from you in my outlook.

HeeseokKoo · Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:28 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 14):
OZ or KE will probably pick-up the Komatsu-ICN route.

Currently KE and JL codeshare on JL's Komatsu-ICN. I heard that KE is preparing to launch this route as JL drops it.

MarkATL · Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 25):
It only took 19 replies before a Frenchman started an A v. B war.

Dude, chill out. Just as many Americans around here start B vs A arguments out of nothing.

m404 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:46 pm

I'm wondering if this might be worth NW going back into the KIX route with a lighter acft - 330 and if that would make the landing fees more palpable. With a 787 it may be even more enticing for ANA and NWA.

[Edited 2006-01-20 05:47:47]

N79969 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:56 pm

There are a few problems at JAL. The most recent one is the ongoing string of highly-publicized safety incidents. Their image has suffered and customers are now avoiding the airline. That is one reason why these routes are being withdrawn.

I think the other problem is the poorly-conceived and executed merger with Japan Air System. I do not think they have actually achieved many of the cost savings that they should have with a merger even if their revenue went up. The other problem is that JAL is not hedged for fuel and is taking a beating.

USAJPNflyer · Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:07 pm

Actually, you can fly from Sendai to Tokyo/Narita. That route actually started when I was living in Sendai from 2000-2003. IBEX Airlines (ANA connection) flies this route twice a day.
http://www.anaskyweb.com/us/e/travel...e/departure/schedule_s/us_sdj.html

However, this flight seems to always be fully booked, especially the morning flight, to make the international connections out of Narita. The afternoon flight's schedule is not so convenient for those making late-afternoon outbound connections to USA flights. Also, depending on who you are flying for the international segment, you may not be able to through-check your baggage. I had this happen to me when I was connecting to UA one time.

The Sendai - Narita flights go to Narita Terminal 2, so if you are flying out of Terminal 1 you also need to build in extra time to shuttle between terminals. If you had a similar situation to mine, you'd also have to claim and recheck your bags as well... so connecting in Narita is not easy, even if your domestic Japanese airport offers a direct flight.

Nagoya would be a better choice for connections since everything is under one terminal, especially since there are no more Sendai - Kansai connections offered now (used to have these in the past).

I am not sure that a Sendai to Tokyo/Haneda flight was even offered, as I have never seen one during my stay. In any case, the Tohoku Shinkansen services were quite fast (the nonstop Hayate/Komachi 2 service would make the 350km journey from Sendai to Tokyo Station in 1 hour 39 minutes). It takes 40 minutes just to take the shuttle bus from Sendai Station to Sendai Airport, so I am not sure such a route would have been a viable one with several shinkansen services offered every hour.

cx777fan · Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:46 pm

As I mentioned on a previous thread about JL's woes, I think one of their biggest problems seems to be athe failure/inability to internationalize and modernize their corporate thinking and practices.

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 15):
but I'm feeling more and more like the airline is having a hard time coping with the 21st century

I think that is very true. With the problems with Japan's sagging economy, ageing population and heavily discounted block bookings by giant travel agents, it seems alarming that they don't emulate so many other asian carriers and use NRT/KIX/NGO as major transit hubs for travellers between Europe & SE Asia and Australia or as UA/NW do with connecting US/Asia traffic. Inbound tourism to Japan is paltry and presumably many non-Japanese business travellers use their own national carriers or make decissions based on milage/status. The over-reliance on Japanese pax - especially with NH as a competitor for the domestic market is unlikely to see an end to the current malaise.

blue787 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 22):
mostly from Southeast Asian countries.

JL also have a large LHR base.

atmx2000 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:39 pm

Quoting CX777Fan (Reply 33):
With the problems with Japan's sagging economy, ageing population and heavily discounted block bookings by giant travel agents, it seems alarming that they don't emulate so many other asian carriers and use NRT/KIX/NGO as major transit hubs for travellers between Europe & SE Asia and Australia or as UA/NW do with connecting US/Asia traffic

I was suprised when you said this, but after looking at the Great Circle Mapper I realized that Japan isn't that far off from the great circle route from LHR to SYD. I don't think that it is viable for traffic between Europe and SE Asia, as Japan is just too far east and north of SE Asia. They would be better off focusing on transpacific traffic.

LTU932 · Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:06 pm

What about NRT-MEX? I heard JL had their Mexico flight on the chopping board as well.

md11dude · Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:44 pm

Makes me wonder how well they are doing on their NRT-YVR and NRT LAX routes?

centrair · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:07 pm

CX777fan...you said what I was trying to say. Thanks.

I feel that JL needs to get off its butt, improve its safety, and start stretching its legs.

As only two U.S. carriers and a few south east asian carriers have 5th freedom rights, JL and NH for that matter could really milk their situation.

As I said in another thread about their fleet, I feel JL fleet capacity is too much for their needs. Back when they were virtually the only show in town, it was okay to have such a fleet. Now they need to think out and focus on hub-point and through traffic. They have been expanding routes out from other cities but they are still focusing on the prime destinations for the Japanese. Example being JL's NGO-CDG. Central Japan has limtedbusiness interest in France beyond the occasional EADS visitor. But as a tourist destination, France is #1 in Europe for the Japanese. Businesswise, LH's NGO-FRA is important due to the automotive trade.

In the next year, JL will need to review their business and safety practices and create a new model that works to keep the company going. NH has already started and is making moves to start longer haul routes out of KIX and NGO with continuing and connecting service to places in Asia. When this starts, I think JL will be hurting.

Quoting USAJPNflyer (Reply 32):
Narita flights go to Narita Terminal 2, so if you are flying out of Terminal 1

Luckily all of NH will move to T1 in June. T1's new wing will be for Star Alliance members. Going to be very stylish.

[Edited 2006-01-20 09:18:18]

centrair · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 35):
I was suprised when you said this, but after looking at the Great Circle Mapper I realized that Japan isn't that far off from the great circle route from LHR to SYD. I don't think that it is viable for traffic between Europe and SE Asia, as Japan is just too far east and north of SE Asia. They would be better off focusing on transpacific traffic.

Was gonna add too myself above but was too lazy.

SYD-HKG-LHR 9189nm
SYD-SIN-LHR 9274nm
SYD-KIX-LHR 9343nm
SYD-NRT-LHR 9402nm
SYD-DXB-LHR 9473nm

Now think if they could do both Transpac and OZ-Europe?

Carpethead · Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:45 pm

Unfortunately, the biggest headache is the OZ-Europe direction, as it's not as convenient for minimal time connections with the current schedule. Then again, its not that good going the other direction either.

Quoting N79969 (Reply 31):

You are right on about it. Though not poorly conceived, the merger has not bear to fruition the synergies. After three years of merger, the only a/c types retired were the MD-11 & DC-10. They will have separate unions for everything from pilots, mechanics, F/As, etc.

Simpilicity · Fri Jan 20, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 13):
It's certainly sad news about the KIX-Oz route ... it's just unfortunate the numbers aren't there to make the route viable. There was a press release by the Australian Tourism Minister Fran Bailey yesterday, and I think that points to how much leisure tourism accounts for on that route rather than business traffic.

Quoting Ktachiya (Thread starter):
In addition, the KIX-BNE-SYD routes are being reviewed

I don't think they fly KIX/BNE/SYD, KIX/SYD, but can't find any KIX/BNE flights.

Perhaps you mean KIX/SYD/BNE or BNE/SYD/KIX ?

AvFan4ever · Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting N79969 (Reply 31):
The most recent one is the ongoing string of highly-publicized safety incidents.

I think the other problem is the poorly-conceived and executed merger with Japan Air System

The other problem is that JAL is not hedged for fuel and is taking a beating.[/quote]

These are all true. JAL has been dogged by the local media and the general public doesn't know any better. The JAS merger has saddled JAL with tons of dead weight and operating inefficiencies. High fuel prices and a meager hedging program have left JAL more vulnerable than most, and local fuel taxes are prohibitive. Aloof ticketing and customer service practices perceived by the international market don't help at all. SIA or Emirates they aren't.

I avoid purchasing JAL tickets mainly because I absolutely HATE dealing with JTB and other local Japanese travel agencies. You can't purchase tickets via the English version of the JAL web site.

[Edited 2006-01-20 13:13:53]

cx777fan · Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:53 pm

I once or twice flew JAL SYD-LHR via NRT. The overnight stopover in a tiny hotel room in NRT may not be to everyone's liking, but it suited me fine. I arrived in London in much better shape than I would have if I'd flown twenty-something hours with a one or two hour break in HKG/SIN/BKK/DXB etc. That also happened to be the cheapest ticket available at the time. What's more, I flew back on the most oddly configured 747 I've ever been on. all but the very last section of the a/c (smoking in those days -late 90s) were business class seats. Food and service were Y, but 14 hours LHT-NRT in a biz seat was great!

I think the kangaroo route could be quite lucrative for them - if only they had the sense to market it properly in Australia and Europe/UK. Consider also codeshare flights with QF once JL are fully part of oneworld - JL could serve European destinations like Paris, Milan, that QF don't fly to. (However, as I type that, I'm thinking that QF probably have agreements with BA for places like that...just wishful thinking to try and help JL sort themselves out!)

jupiter2 · Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:48 am

Simpilicity,

JL 777/778 routes KIX/BNE/SYD/KIX is operated daily by JALWays with 743's. I thought you would have known that being in the travel industry.

I to have done the SYD/NRT/LHR/NRT/SYD flight on JAL a couple of times, as mentioned not a great room at Narita but it serves the purpose. Have also done the same route but using the QF flight from SYD which operates overnight, much better connex wise, although still a few hours.

I am surprised though that they are considering canning the KIX/BNE/SYD flights, from what I've seen the numbers onboard are usually very high 350 plus when it arrives in SYD. I know pax numbers don't always tell the full story, but the loads are there, they need to get the yield right.

RL

aaway · Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:02 am

I spoke to a JL manager this afternoon. He stated that a final decision regarding LAX-KIX and LAS-LAX-NRT is due next month.

He indicated that LAX-KIX loads were generally good, although F hasn't performed as well as it once had. Y is always fulll...of pax on free tickets, and bulk / consolidator type fares. Typical story...yield is crap, especially with a decided lack of premium fares to mitigate the travel agency tourists filling the back.

He further expressed the opinion that LAX-KIX be converted to all-economy and that the (potential) loss of JL 25 (LAS-LAX-NRT) would not be significant.

LTU932 · Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:44 pm

Quoting Aaway (Reply 45):
He indicated that LAX-KIX loads were generally good, although F hasn't performed as well as it once had. Y is always fulll...of pax on free tickets, and bulk / consolidator type fares. Typical story...yield is crap, especially with a decided lack of premium fares to mitigate the travel agency tourists filling the back.

Why not have JALways take over that route, along with the LAS service since this one seems to be rather leisure orientated nowadays. Maybe JL could keep those routes alive that way.

Simpilicity · Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 44):
JL 777/778 routes KIX/BNE/SYD/KIX is operated daily by JALWays with 743's. I thought you would have known that being in the travel industry.

So why can't we find any nonstops at all with any carrier KIX/BNE IN OUR crs?

Simpilicity · Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:03 pm

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 47):
Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 44):
JL 777/778 routes KIX/BNE/SYD/KIX is operated daily by JALWays with 743's. I thought you would have known that being in the travel industry.

So why can't we find any nonstops at all with any carrier KIX/BNE IN OUR crs?

our apologies ... we just checked again & no nonstops with any carrier BNE/KIX, but u are correct ...

** AMADEUS TIMETABLE - TN ** BNE BRISBANE.AUQL 21JAN06 28JAN06
1JO*JL 777 D KIX BNE I 2125 0655+1 0 30OCT05 24MAR06 747 8:30
2 :QF 374 D KIX BNE I 2125 0655+1 0 06DEC05 24MAR06 743 8:30

N1120A · Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting Cloud4000 (Reply 9):
Doesn't ANA ply the KIX-LAX route too?

Nope, but they may start now. United really should jump on this chance to beef up LAX again

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