Southwest Rumors

midex461 · Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:38 pm

Ok, I admit this is (at least) secondhand info. My father is a pilot for DL, and on a layover in BDL was riding to & from the hotel with some WN pilots. He mentioned to me that they had told him some rumors they had heard.

The first is that WN will be teaming up with DL in ATL for some trans-Atlantic flying.

The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

The first probably has as much of a chance of happening as Bush does of being impeached (for better or for worse), but is the second at all feasible?

N908AW · Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):

The first is that WN will be teaming up with DL in ATL for some trans-Atlantic flying.

Noooooo......

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

Actually I heard something like that here before. Who knows, with other cargo carriers still with DC-10s, DC-9s, DC-8s, and 727s, maybe WN/other carriers could bring NG equipment in and do a better job for less...

atrude777 · Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:49 pm

Cargo thing has been going around.

Expect something though from SWA Wink

Alex

OPNLguy · Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The first is that WN will be teaming up with DL in ATL for some trans-Atlantic flying.

Gary Kelly was quoted saying that in the paper the other day, but your rumor has the airline wrong--it's ATA, not Delta...

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

Gary Kelly put this one to bed on the January 9th internal hotline message. That hasn't stopped the rumors, which are largely fueled by SWA's recently starting to use Pemco (in Dothan AL) for some MX work. One of the many things Pemco does are side cargo door mods (Alaska has two in the barn right now for that), so some folks have arbitrarily assumed that any SWA aircraft that goes to Dothan is in for a cargo door mod. I've released 4 aircraft in/out of Dothan in recent weeks, and NONE have had cargo doors added.

Drive a wooden stake through the heart of this rumor; it's dead... Wink

thegreatchecko · Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):

Gary Kelly was quoted saying that in the paper the other day, but your rumor has the airline wrong--it's ATA, not Delta...

FINALLY! Before ATA basically went under, I recall them wanting to start Trans-Atlantic low-fare service. Hopefully, WN can get the details ironed out in MDW to pull this off (international connections, baggage regs, etc.)

GreatChecko

OPNLguy · Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
FINALLY! Before ATA basically went under, I recall them wanting to start Trans-Atlantic low-fare service. Hopefully, WN can get the details ironed out in MDW to pull this off (international connections, baggage regs, etc.)

See the 4th paragraph at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...tories/013006dnbusata.7befcde.html (www.bugmenot.com if it asks for registration).

BTW, ATA didn't "go under" as in liquidate/cease to exist ala' Chapter 7--they filed Chapter 11 reorganization, and they're supposed to exit that process in 1Q2006.

chase · Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:59 pm

I don't think WN/TZ to Europe is going to happen anytime soon, if they currently don't even codeshare on TZ's existing routes to Mexico and the Carribean.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
FINALLY! Before ATA basically went under, I recall them wanting to start Trans-Atlantic low-fare service. Hopefully, WN can get the details ironed out in MDW to pull this off (international connections, baggage regs, etc.)

Would they really do it from MDW though? There's a big difference between hopping your 73G to LAX from MDW's little runways, and hopping your 757 to Europe from them. For that matter, would the 757 even make it from Europe to MDW on fuel range? Looking at the WN route map, IF this is to happen, I'd say BWI is a much more suitable match airfield and geographically speaking.

luv2fly · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:11 am

I would have to agree with BWI as a better choice for Europe and considering the range of the 757's

stirling · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The first is that WN will be teaming up with DL in ATL for some trans-Atlantic flying.

jetBlue is the airline exploring engaging a partner for international flying.
Neeleman says it can happen by the end of the year.

DLKAPA · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):

jetBlue is the airline exploring engaging a partner for international flying.
Neeleman says it can happen by the end of the year.

If it were Jetblue I'd expect them to be in talks with SRB on this one. Don't they already interline luggage? A codeshare wouldn't be too far-fetched I don't think.

BWI757 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

Let's see, those who print their freight passes out first get to load their cargo first.

Imagine 20 "A" group forklifts/loaders racing towards the plane so they can get the "front seat"

Announcements over the PA systems: "Just put your cargo down in any available area, we have a full flight today"

BWI757

stirling · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:56 am

I think Virgin makes the most sense, alliance wise...who else left out there not already married to someone?
But then Virgin America throws a monkey wrench in to that scenario..

acelanzarote · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:57 am

Maybe Jetblue should buy BMI up!

RiddlePilot215 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 13):
Maybe Jetblue should buy BMI up!

If JetBlue acquires the assets to BmiBaby as well, do you think David Neelman would change the name to "Blue Baby"?

acelanzarote · Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:15 am

Well BMI could hardly be any worse, at least Jet Blue would get BMI or whatever they became called into something worthwhile! Both operate Airbus as well!!!

Lindy · Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:18 am

But what about ATAs L1011? They can fly to Europe.

Rafal

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting Lindy (Reply 16):
But what about ATAs L1011? They can fly to Europe.

They're awfully tired already. To use them in a Euro revenue service they'd need updated interiors... and with as old as they are and the maintenance/heavy check concerns I doubt they'd ever recoup enough ROI to make it worth it.

chase · Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:56 am

Rumor in Spring '04 had TZ starting Europe ops from either CLT or BOS, neither of which they serve any more. So I would agree that BWI would make the most sense for the US end of the route. They were in serious talks with an airport in Germany at the time, although I don't remember which. Cologne, I think.
But, again, I would be astounded if they announced codesharing with WN to Europe before CUN and GDL.

N200WN · Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Chase (Reply 18):
But, again, I would be astounded if they announced codesharing with WN to Europe before CUN and GDL.

I have to agree with you there. I think Europe is a long way off, if at all. Last year at a managers meeting Colleen hinted that international codeshare was coming with ATA, and she also mentioned that RR holders wanted fun places to go. Which leads me to believe that they are also working on linking the FF programs together. So with that, I suspect that CUN would be the target destination for a start. Also, it would work from both HOU and BWI.

If Europe were ever to start I agree with all that BWI is where it would be. Tornado hit it on the head with MDW. Now BWI-London/Stansted would be great. What an airbridge that would be between two low cost hubs.

dalneighbor · Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:54 am

I heard a rumor that AA was going to move some of its flying from DFW to DAL because they are refocusing on profitable routes. Probably just crazy talk, but has anybody else heard about this?

DLKAPA · Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 13):
Maybe Jetblue should buy BMI up!

What would foreign ownership laws have to say about that?

Junction · Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 12):
I think Virgin makes the most sense, alliance wise...who else left out there not already married to someone?

Could be Virgin, but keep in mind they already have an extensive alliance/codeshare arrangement with Continental from almost all the VS U.S. gateways.

YLWbased · Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 20):

or maybe some DC-3 too duck

flydreamliner · Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting PillowTester (Reply 20):
737 family of aircraft with second-hand IL-86 and Boeing 717 aircraft.

Are you out of your mind?

First off, what incentive is there to replace 737's with 717s? Especially since southwest has already bought a contingent of 737-700s. Better question, where are they getting these 717s from? Everyone who has 717s (the few there are) are holding on to them.

And when you said IL-86, clearly you did not mean the Russian Il-86 did you? Because that's insane.

FlyingTexan · Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
The first is that WN will be teaming up with DL in ATL for some trans-Atlantic flying.

OOOO THATS GOOD STUFF!

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):
.

The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

They already run a freight service between LV and the LA Basin. Cargo: *working girls* and others in the skin industry.

FlyingTexan ~ Fightin' Wright from Skin City

rsbj · Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:11 am

A friend of mine in recurrent training reiterated that Gary Kelly said we are in talks to code share with Delta. Did Gary mean to say ATA? I don't know, sure is interesting.

jcf5002 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting N200WN (Reply 19):
If Europe were ever to start I agree with all that BWI is where it would be. Tornado hit it on the head with MDW. Now BWI-London/Stansted would be great. What an airbridge that would be between two low cost hubs.

I think that the biggest problems with any WN international service originating from BWI would be an infastructure and logistics standpoint. Although BWI has been growing at a tremendous rate and Southwest just built the new 'A' Terminal, they are understaffed there to begin with and any other service agencies (such as fuel) would be hard-pressed to assist this expansion. I only know this because I worked at BWI as a refuller and know how hard it was to keep up with demand, especially at the WN terminals.

On the other hand, BWI's 'B' Terminal is being rebuilt and I think a hydrant cart fueling system is being installed with everything else. So the space is there.

I think it would be a great idea and could be extremely profitable for Southwest to start doing, but at least for BWI, I'm not sure if it could supply the equipment and manpower fast enough to cope any time soon.

NWDC10 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:30 am

I'm very supprised WN doesn't have SEA-ANC non-stop service. Robert NWDC10

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 29):

I'm very supprised WN doesn't have SEA-ANC non-stop service.

WN won't open a station for less than 10x a day. Where else would they go from ANC besides SEA?

swabur · Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 25):
They already run a freight service between LV and the LA Basin. Cargo: *working girls* and others in the skin industry.

Nice!! Anyone been to BUR on a Friday Night? Check out those LAS flights!!

DfwRevolution · Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 30):
Where else would they go from ANC besides SEA?

LAX, OAK, SAN, LAS, PHX, DEN, and SLC are all within the range of the 737-700 with winglets.

Mexicana757 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 32):
LAX, OAK, SAN, LAS, PHX, DEN, and SLC are all within the range of the 737-700 with winglets.

Don't forget MDW. biggrin

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 31):

LAX, OAK, SAN, LAS, PHX, DEN, and SLC are all within the range of the 737-700 with winglets.

Just because you can get there doesn't mean you're going to be able to steal enough AS pax to fill 10x a day. Alaskans like their AS, and are pretty entrenched into FF miles.

ntspelich · Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 33):
Alaskans like their AS, and are pretty entrenched into FF miles.

Yeah, just like folks used to say about people in PHL, US and their Dividend Miles.

NTS

737tanker · Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 29):

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 28):
I'm very supprised WN doesn't have SEA-ANC non-stop service. Robert NWDC10

Rumor out of the training center is ANC starts in 2007. The word is that WN will start it as payback to what Alaska did to WN at SEA.

AirWillie6475 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting Midex461 (Thread starter):

The second is that they'll (WN) be turning some of their 300s into freighters and running a freight service btwn cities like LAS-LAX

Those pilots apparently needed some more sleep. The atlanta rumor sounds ok.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 35):

Rumor out of the training center is ANC starts in 2007. The word is that WN will start it as payback to what Alaska did to WN at SEA.

Southwest would be blowing ALOT of money to go open a station at Anchorage just to "payback" Alaska. That wouldn't be very fiscally responsible of them, sounds Northwestish in nature.

dalneighbor · Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
Southwest would be blowing ALOT of money to go open a station at Anchorage just to "payback" Alaska. That wouldn't be very fiscally responsible of them, sounds Northwestish in nature.

Or AAish. Maybe AA only acts fiscally irresponsible in North Texas.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):

Or AAish. Maybe AA only acts fiscally irresponsible in North Texas.

Oh God, here we go.

DfwRevolution · Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 33):
Just because you can get there doesn't mean you're going to be able to steal enough AS pax to fill 10x a day. Alaskans like their AS, and are pretty entrenched into FF miles.

I'm sure the largest domestic carrier in the U.S. would sure struggle to fill ten additional departures per day. Ahh the almighty loyalty card.

While obviously Alaskans will be traveling out of ANC, have you considered that there are people looking to travel to ANC from WN's huge continental stations and their respective loyalty circles?

And why do you insist traffic must be stolen? Have AS and other carriers completly fulfilled every single need for traffic between ANC and the contiental states? Of course not. There is always a city pair, a departure time, a frequency, or a fare that isn't being offered. To suggest WN of all airlines couldn't fill a measly ten flights per day is beyond ludicrous.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 39):
Oh God, here we go.

How can you possibly object to a claim that AA engages in bully tactics? What do you call the legal harrasment of Legend, basing a luxury F100 fleet at DAL, engaging double-sided logic in arguing against DCA perimeter but for DAL perimeter, and pulling service from small communities that didn't speak out in favor of the W.A.?

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 35):
The word is that WN will start it as payback to what Alaska did to WN at SEA.

Hardly WN's style.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 40):
How can you possibly object to a claim that AA engages in bully tactics? What do you call the legal harrasment of Legend, basing a luxury F100 fleet at DAL, engaging double-sided logic in arguing against DCA perimeter but for DAL perimeter, and pulling service from small communities that didn't speak out in favor of the W.A.?

Did I say AA doesn't? No. I just didn't even want to utter the letters AA because it leads to a giant pissing match as this is quickly becoming. There was no place for AA in this thread, NOR the Wright, but in 2 posts you and your boy DAL have managed to get them both in.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 40):

Hardly WN's style.

Which is EXACTLY what I meant by THIS:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 37):
Southwest would be blowing ALOT of money to go open a station at Anchorage just to "payback" Alaska. That wouldn't be very fiscally responsible of them, sounds Northwestish in nature.

dalneighbor · Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 41):
Did I say AA doesn't? No. I just didn't even want to utter the letters AA because it leads to a giant pissing match as this is quickly becoming. There was no place for AA in this thread, NOR the Wright, but in 2 posts you and your boy DAL have managed to get them both in.

When you are enslaved, slavery is kind of top of mind every day. For you its just something to chat about every now and then. For me its a vacation I can't afford with my wife, its a trip to Omaha and the CWS that is too expensive to fly to, its my home and my economy that suffer. Its a real drag on the quality of life here.

cjpark · Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 20):
I heard a rumor that AA was going to move some of its flying from DFW to DAL because they are refocusing on profitable routes. Probably just crazy talk, but has anybody else heard about this?

WN is going to start service in Tyler to capture that large and profitable market.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 42):
When you are enslaved, slavery is kind of top of mind every day. For you its just something to chat about every now and then. For me its a vacation I can't afford with my wife, its a trip to Omaha and the CWS that is too expensive to fly to, its my home and my economy that suffer. Its a real drag on the quality of life here.

If you cannot afford a vacation with your wife then get a better job or learn to save more money. Don't claim your personal problems are a result of the WA.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:53 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 42):
When you are enslaved, slavery is kind of top of mind every day. For you its just something to chat about every now and then. For me its a vacation I can't afford with my wife, its a trip to Omaha and the CWS that is too expensive to fly to, its my home and my economy that suffer. Its a real drag on the quality of life here.

Holy melodramatic. Funny, I've been "enslaved" to non-LCC fares for the past 10 months, even surviving a long-distance relationship over 700 miles despite those non-LCC fares. I haven't cried yet, and I don't feel as if there's been "a real drag on the quality of life here," either. High crime rates, high property values/cost of living leading to a lack of comfortable middle class housing leaving just ghettos and $500k developments or rental properties, bad roads, lack of infrastructure, and a host of other things might make the quality of life in the Lehigh Valley pretty bad depending on the perspective, but definitely not airfares are a "real drag on the quality of life here..." and I've got alot more riding on my "quality of life" because of said relationship that those high airfares could really mess up as opposed to missing out on a random vacation and the College World Series.

As for other posts by other esteemed members of airliners.net, I refuse to give credence to threads about anatomical parts of the other gender and any FOD in them. Really classy, and deletion was already suggested.

Tornado82 · Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:10 pm

For the record though, Anchorage, that "Major metropolitan area" has 334,124 people, and is ranked #141 in the nation for MSA's.

Let's compare that to some other similar-sized MSA's that Southwest doesn't yet serve.
116. Fort Wayne, IN
074. Syracuse, NY
126. Davenport/Moline (Quad Cities), IA/IL.
146. South Bend/Mishawaka, IN
147. Charleston, WV

And any of the following all in a row....
63. Allentown/Lehigh Valley, PA
86. Scranton/Wilkes Barre, PA
88. Harrisburg, PA
98. Lancaster, PA
119. York, PA
121. Reading, PA
Sure you could say those are served by PHL... but not many people in their right minds are driving down from AVP in the winter to save money @ PHL on flights, sorry... and by the way, tiny little
155. Erie, PA is more than 100mi from the nearest WN airports so they're not served at all either.

As for similar sized cities served by WN already:
118. Manchester/Nashua, NH (But that's WN's version of Boston!)
129. Reno, NV (gambling/Tahoe skiing)
133. Brownsville/Harlingen, TX

Oh yeah... Anchorage is a major city alright, it can handle another 1370 seats getting dumped into it on routes already covered, no problem.

Besides, isn't WN still mad at SEA and would never want to add flights there anyways??

Source for above demographic data: www.proximityone.com

[Edited 2006-01-31 07:11:59]

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:36 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 20):
I heard a rumor that AA was going to move some of its flying from DFW to DAL because they are refocusing on profitable routes. Probably just crazy talk, but has anybody else heard about this?

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):
Or AAish. Maybe AA only acts fiscally irresponsible in North Texas.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with you, DAL, why did you have to hijack this thread to continue the Love debate? There are plenty of times to talk about it without interjecting it into a different type of thread.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 40):
How can you possibly object to a claim that AA engages in bully tactics?

He wasn't.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 43):
It takes two to tango. Was DALNeighborin any way wrong to say that entering ANC for the sole purpose of retaliation would not be an American-esque move? Events within the last 3 months prove that Reply 38 was spot on, albeit abrasive.

Point is, you didn't want to hear it, you revved your emotional engine into high-gear, and you can't pass the buck.

I'm not emotional about it one way or the other, but I think it was pretty clear in reading through this thread that DAL's post suddenly lurched it in a different direction, and he clearly was trying to get something going. I mean, his first comment was about AA moving flights to DAL - what does that have to do with the conversation?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 43):
To the contrary, the W.A. is pertinent to almost any discussion on WN fleet planning, code share, or station opening. Removing the perimeter around DAL would dramatically shift the direction WN heads in the next 3-5 years, equal to opening an all-new station in a major city.

I love your posts - especially the technical ones - but I think IMHO you're off base this time.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 44):
If you cannot afford a vacation with your wife then get a better job or learn to save more money. Don't claim your personal problems are a result of the WA.

Oh look who showed up now. I'll get the beer.

-Dave

PlanesNTrains · Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:41 pm

One thought on ANC service by WN. Morris Air did it for a while from SEA (I flew them once - January, midnight landing, no jetbridge, not a pretty picture), so there is a precedent for a LCC to fly the route. I don't know if 10X could work, but maybe 6X to SEA, PDX, OAK, LAS, and MDW, or some such?

Or hit AS where they really hurt and do Seattle-Juneau. Or an Anchorage-Fairbanks shuttle - LOL! That'd shake things up a bit.

Seriously, though, I like Alaska Airlines, and would hate to see them take a hit from WN, but I think both would coexist just fine.

-Dave

Lono · Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:20 pm

Not able to do cargo... not enough time on the ground... need more of a cargo infrastucture....very expensive... the legacies gross more in cargo than sw makes in a year.. not gonna happen..

EA CO AS · Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:35 pm

Quoting N200WN (Reply 19):
she also mentioned that RR holders wanted fun places to go.

What, ELP isn't good enough for you people?

Signed,
Herb Kelleher

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 48):
One thought on ANC service by WN. Morris Air did it for a while from SEA (I flew them once - January, midnight landing, no jetbridge, not a pretty picture), so there is a precedent for a LCC to fly the route. I don't know if 10X could work, but maybe 6X to SEA, PDX, OAK, LAS, and MDW, or some such?

Or hit AS where they really hurt and do Seattle-Juneau. Or an Anchorage-Fairbanks shuttle - LOL! That'd shake things up a bit.

Dear WN,

Bring it on.

Signed,
The people of Alaska Air Group

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