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London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:47 am

Would there be sufficient demand from secondary US cities for non-stop flights to London, England, using smaller aircraft, like the 737-700 BBJ or 319 CJ, or a normal-configured or corporate-configured 757-200 (might be limited in terms of range with normal configuration), or whatever? Nice niche markets. If so, what sort of US cities? Two which instantly spring to mind are SAN and PDX.

[Edited 2006-01-31 16:53:21]
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luv2fly
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RE: Secondary US Cities To London?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:49 am

Did BA drop SAN to London?
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
N1120A
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RE: Secondary US Cities To London?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting [email protected] (Thread starter):
Nice niche markets. If so, what sort of US cities? Two which instantly spring to mind are SAN and PDX.

In order to operate either of those cities to London, you would have to tank up and lighten the 752. Using the 73GER or the ACJ would require all the auxilary tanks (and the ACJ would still have an issue) and have a very light interior as well. It is not particularly practical.
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RE: Secondary US Cities To London?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
Did BA drop SAN to London?

Yes. However, that per se does not mean it cannot be profitable. You just need the right product, the right pricing and the right marketing.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
luv2fly
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 3):
Yes. However, that per se does not mean it cannot be profitable. You just need the right product, the right pricing and the right marketing.

Considering the amount of connections that are possible with BA via London and they could not make it work, I am doubtful that it could work for someone else.
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Mikey711MN
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RE: Secondary US Cities To London?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:59 am

[email protected], I've always wondered that too. With many relatively secondary markets in Europe being served by CO and AA expansion of 752's across the pond, I think that a BA or similar airline could achieve similar results by connecting LGW to East Coast and/or Upper Midwest secondary markets such as IND, CLE, MKE, BDL, PVD, CMH, et. al.* To certain extents though, FI already does this with its very efficient operation connecting its passengers conveniently through KEF.

As far as SAN and PDX go, I think the former is ripe for some sort of transatlantic service, which I think a 787 would be ideally suited for, i.e. long thin international routes. But IMHO PDX is potentially a bit overserved...not to incite a flame war, but only when those incentives run out and LH still maintains its PDX-FRA route will I fully believe that they'll have long-term sustainable service.

-Mike

* Provided, of course, that they had the range, which I haven't checked in the list.
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
airbazar
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 4):
Considering the amount of connections that are possible with BA via London and they could not make it work, I am doubtful that it could work for someone else.

That's not necessarily true. The US-LON market is mostly for O&D traffic. Few people in their right mind would ever transfer at LHR when there are much better options in Europe. FRA, AMS, MUC, CDG, are all much better airports for transfering. Also, BA often has the most expensive fares for flights beyond LHR, at least that's been my experience.
 
luv2fly
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
That's not necessarily true. The US-LON market is mostly for O&D traffic. Few people in their right mind would ever transfer at LHR when there are much better options in Europe. FRA, AMS, MUC, CDG, are all much better airports for transfering. Also, BA often has the most expensive fares for flights beyond LHR, at least that's been my experience.

I think you might be wrong here as I have flown BA numerous times and the amount of people connecting is more than the ones just going to London
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BestWestern
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:04 am

These destinations need a hub city on the London end, and heathrow is jam packed already. CDG may work for AF.
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[email protected]
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 2):
In order to operate either of those cities to London, you would have to tank up and lighten the 752. Using the 73GER or the ACJ would require all the auxilary tanks (and the ACJ would still have an issue) and have a very light interior as well. It is not particularly practical.

Actually, the range of the 737-700/-800 BBJ is just under 5,000 NM with 50 pax. LHR-SAN is just under 4,800 NM; LHR-PDX is just under 4,300 NM. So, doable, in theory.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
AirScoot
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 7):
I think you might be wrong here as I have flown BA numerous times and the amount of people connecting is more than the ones just going to London

I've run into the same thing.. and it's not just BA/BA connections. There's a load of interline connections happening at LHR as well. Given the range of carriers that serve the airport. LGW is the same - only to a lesser extent.

I've never had to connect beyond T3-T3 but I found the connections easy enough to deal with. I know that LHR has some serious detractors on this board, but I don't think it's as bad as some people make it out to be.

I'll even be there a week from this Friday Big grin
 
cloud4000
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:09 am

In another thread on A.net, Boeing has announced the launch of 737-700ER, which will enable transatlantic services for secondary.
Boston, USA
 
airbazar
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:17 am

I'm not saying there aren't people connecting at LHR because there are. LHR is still the largest Intl airport in Europe. Personally I'd never make it my first choice for connecting. For starters, it's not a Shengen country which brings up added hassles, and if you have to change terminals, forget it, you need at least 3 hours in between flights if you have checked luggage.

If you compare the connecting traffic numbers for the other airports I mentioned (FRA, MUC, AMS, CDG), you'll see that they are all gaining on LHR over the last few years. MUC is today, arguably, the best airport in Europe to transfer between flights.
 
luv2fly
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12):
MUC is today, arguably, the best airport in Europe to transfer between flights.

Though MUC does not offer the amount of flights to the Middle East and Africa like BA does out of London, does it?
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:26 am

I was hoping that such cities would have sufficient O&D traffic, not least because it'd make it easier and also command higher fares (connecting fares are normally less).
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
gilesdavies
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:39 am

Charlotte is always a city that has amazed me with maintaining an A330-300 to both FRA and daily.

Many people outside the US would not have heard of the city and many other US cities would spring to mind first. Unless it is all the conencting flights that is offered by US Airways that allows the flights to be maintained.

I have flown the route several times and the flights have always been full.
 
jacobin777
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
Did BA drop SAN to London?

yes they did a few years ago, it wasn't that the flight had low pax, but it was a bit weight restricted, which killed the yields and profits on it.......if they go for a plane such as the 787, that might be one route they look to restart.......
"Up the Irons!"
 
MAH4546
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
Charlotte is always a city that has amazed me with maintaining an A330-300 to both FRA and daily.

Many people outside the US would not have heard of the city and many other US cities would spring to mind first. Unless it is all the conencting flights that is offered by US Airways that allows the flights to be maintained.

I have flown the route several times and the flights have always been full.

US Airways has nearly 400 (if not more) daily flights into/out of CLT. It is not that difficult to fill a flight that way. The fact that Charlotte has a strong banking industry also helps, as does heavy German investment in the Southeast region in general.
a.
 
N908AW
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 15):
Charlotte is always a city that has amazed me with maintaining an A330-300 to both FRA and daily.

They're called hubs.  Smile

The topic...the 739/73GER would have to be ridiculously overpriced. CASM on a 763 is far less than a 739...but of course, you guys know that.
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Trvlr
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 4):

Considering the amount of connections that are possible with BA via London and they could not make it work, I am doubtful that it could work for someone else.

Keep in mind several factors:

1) BA is prevented from cooperating with American Airlines, its primary alliance partner in the United States. Especially for a smaller market such as SAN, the loss of high-fare AA FF's probably affected potential yields.

2) It might not have been the right sized plane for the route. The 777 is just about the only aircraft that can realistically make it from SAN to Europe in the first place. The 744 is way too heavy, and the 763 (which serves many European routes out of secondary cities in the US) would have to be weight restricted beyond all reason to make it out of SAN.

1) It's not even all about passenger loads. Cargo is a huge factor in profitability calculations, and even the 777 was heavily weight restricted on takeoff from SAN.

So, as you can see, there are actually quite a few important factors out there besides how many people fill up a plane. [email protected] is correct--just get the right product (and, in SAN's case, the right infrastructure) to the market, and profitability is much more likely.

Aaron G.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:10 am

I would say SLC.
If no one else, you may get the LDS Church members (Mormons) who are going on missions to Europe to fly on you.
Plus, I am surprised that DL doesn't fly anywhere foreign from SLC. Not counting Canada or Mexico. It has been a hub for them for 19 years,now.
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fbgdavidson
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 19):
1) BA is prevented from cooperating with American Airlines, its primary alliance partner in the United States. Especially for a smaller market such as SAN, the loss of high-fare AA FF's probably affected potential yields.

Except AA's 'high-fare' FFs would not consider flying BA across the pond as they have nothing to gain from it. Anti-competition regulations mean that BA Exec Club members cannot earn miles on AA transatlantic and vice versa.

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 10):
I'll even be there a week from this Friday 

Likewise, if you are flying out of Terminal 4 and are short of lounge access drop me an email. It is in my profile.
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hz747300
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 3):
Yes. However, that per se does not mean it cannot be profitable. You just need the right product, the right pricing and the right marketing.

That's why God let Boeing invent the 787.
Keep on truckin'...
 
TUNisia
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 12):
MUC is today, arguably, the best airport in Europe to transfer between flights.

I'd say ZRH and AMS has MUC beat in that department. ZRH is just too hard to top for transfers  Wink
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as739x
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:45 pm

Pearson: another thing that I didn't see noted here was that SAN is a low yeild market. There really is not the business passengers in the market. The BBJ's , etc. are for biz tickets. Notice that all the special planes (privateair, LH Biz) hopping the pond go to business centers, not the leisure cities.

ASLAX
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 24):
The BBJ's , etc. are for biz tickets.

Not just for businesspeople: it's for those who have no other option but to use it where no viable alternative exists. So, it might not good considering that there's a plethora of options from SAN.
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JAGflyer
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 9):

LHR-SAN is more like 5480 miles.
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Trvlr
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 21):
Except AA's 'high-fare' FFs would not consider flying BA across the pond as they have nothing to gain from it. Anti-competition regulations mean that BA Exec Club members cannot earn miles on AA transatlantic and vice versa.

Exactly my point. No partner carrier passengers = less potential revenue for BA.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 24):
another thing that I didn't see noted here was that SAN is a low yeild market. There really is not the business passengers in the market. The BBJ's , etc. are for biz tickets. Notice that all the special planes (privateair, LH Biz) hopping the pond go to business centers, not the leisure cities.

SAN certainly isn't ORD, LAX, or JFK, but it's not TPA or HNL either. There is enough business here to support at least one or two intercontinental flights. The problem, as I and many others have mentioned in this thread and others, is that infrastructure limitations (among other things) have led airlines to settle with placing the incorrect product in the market, if they even attempt to penetrate it in the first place. Comparatively speaking, SAN is quite similar to PDX and PHX (for example), all of which have the correct infrastructure (and skillful management) to quite successfully attract multiple intercontinental services.

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 22):
That's why God let Boeing invent the 787.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Aaron G.
 
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 26):
LHR-SAN is more like 5480 miles.

Precisely - miles. I was talking in NM, which is what is used.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
2travel2know
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:53 am

As much as we would like to see flights from London (most likely LGW/STN/LTN rather than LHR) to secondary U.S. Cities/Airports like: BGR, PWM, MHT, PVD, BDL, ISP, SWF, BWI (?), PIT (again) RIC, ORF, BHM, BNA, MEM, JAX, FLL, PBI, RSW, TPA (?), MSY (again), SAT, AUS, ELP, ABQ, IND, MKE, STL (again), MCI, OMA, ONT, OAK, SJC, SAN (again), PDX, SLC, PHX (?)... this would be very unlikely.
U.K. airlines most likely won't like to fly B737/B757/A320 types there - even if they had them for those destinations within range from London plus some of those destinations may not support daily service, even summertime. For all other destinations maybe those cities wouldn't support a daily or 4 weekly widebody service.
U.S. airlines would consider flying to London from their hubs if they see a demmand there, but most of the cities/airports listed above aren't hubs at all.
Lets keep dreaming and someday we'll see a couple of those cities having flights to London..
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Tornado82
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 5):
I think that a BA or similar airline could achieve similar results by connecting LGW to East Coast and/or Upper Midwest secondary markets such as IND, CLE

CLE already has LGW on CO, seasonally, in a 752. You're not getting much further away than CLE though before you have problems bringing that 752 back west into the winds.

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 5):
FI already does this with its very efficient operation connecting its passengers conveniently through KEF.

FI should look into a codeshare with a more heavily hubbed domestic US LCC. B6 and FL come to mind, looking at routemaps.
 
Orion737
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RE: London To Secondary US Cities?

Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:26 am

Bring back St Louis!!!

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