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burnsie28
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 3:57 pm

This guy is a NW employee, the story that is on that website seems to be lacking several details, but a registered travel partner are allowed, however, the free tickets may have rules to be immediately family being spouse, and kids only. I've seen it on some NW "employee award" tickets before.
 
D L X
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Gkpetery (Reply 72):
From your profile, it says you're a law student.

84 days away from being a lawyer... give or take a bar exam.

Quoting Gkpetery (Reply 72):
So, you should be one of the first to know that with marriage, there comes divorce in the world nowadays.

You don't need to go to law school to know that some (many) marriages end in divorce.

However, that's still neither here nor there. If this guy who is the subject of this suit tried to take his divorcee with him, he would have met the same result as he did when he tried to take his "registered domestic partner" with him. The topic of divorce muddies the issue. The topic of morals is relevant (even though I think it is wrongly used).
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:07 pm

Quoting United737522 (Reply 42):
Also, he said he was going to FL to visit his 89 year old grandmother, sounds like a good time for your partner. sarcastic

Richter, who are you to judge? First of all, he was going to see his 89 year old mother, which i'm sure the partner wouldn't have a relationship with....

He won the tickets, and its his right to use them anywhere he wants to, whether you approve of it or not. You sound ridiculous.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:09 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 75):
He won the tickets, and its his right to use them anywhere he wants

Within the terms and conditions of the ticket
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Jamake1
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:32 pm

The deeper problem here is that the U.S. discriminates against same sex couples by not allowing them the legal right to marry (each other). Even so, if NWA recognizes domestic partnerships by providing such benefits to their own employees, then the prudent thing to do would be to make a slight amendment to its interline policy on award tickets by inserting the phrase, "or domestic partner." Good for the ACLU. If that's what it takes to get antiquated corporate policies updated, then so be it. Progress usually involves a fight of some sort...
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EA CO AS
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting KLM11 (Reply 33):
Regardless of their sexual orientation, they have 100% equal rights to the usage of an award ticket!

It's not an award ticket. It's a non-revenue, space-available pass that only airline employees or their eligible dependents, parents or spouse may use. A domestic partner does not qualify, unfortunately.

Quoting D L X (Reply 56):
NW did not honor the tickets because the companion was not a spouse, a child, or another airline employee. THAT is not illegal discrimination,

Exactly. I'm glad to see SOMEONE gets it instead of whipping themselves into a frenzy in the name of gay rights.  sarcastic 

Quoting Gkpetery (Reply 67):
NWA has a very outdated corporate policy. I'm glad that there are good lawyers in the world that are going to help change that.

So a cadre of lawyers can just come in and arbitrarily change the policies of any private business, eh?

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 70):
He won the tickets, and its his right to use them anywhere he wants to, whether you approve of it or not. You sound ridiculous.

No, you sound ridiculous because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I won two roundtrip passes on BA from a contest my company had - and I found I couldn't take my fiancee because since we're not married yet, even though we share a residence, bills, etc - she's not eligible under established company rules that are in accordance with IRS regulations governing non-revenue travel.

His partner is in the same boat and therefore isn't eligible to use them - end of story. It's not discriminatory in any way.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AR385
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:01 pm

As a lot of people have pointed it out, this case is not very well detailed and the article is lacking in important facts for a lucid discussion. I do think that the person who refused the redemption of the tickets to the couple was simply one of those inflexible, by the book morons we encounter everyday. I am sure common sense, good judgement and a good customer oriented flexibility (even though they were employees) would have immediately averted this situation that NW can ill afford these days.

Unfortunately for homophobics, the average marketing profile of American gay male couples in committed relationships is that of good spending, affluent, above-average yearly incomes (around 60 to 80 thousand/year) well educated and surprise! high yield TRAVELLERS.

For any company in the world to ignore this particular market segment is plain dumb. ESPECIALLY for an airline, for God's sake.

So, the fact that in this day and age things like this happen (from a purely financial standpoint) is beyond comprehension to me.

Please note: I am not looking at this issue just from $$$$ viewpoint. It's just that I don't want to get into the morals or discrimination part of this thread, it's too tiresome, plus, I wanted to contribute a different viewpoint that I have not read here.
 
N1120A
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 73):
So a cadre of lawyers can just come in and arbitrarily change the policies of any private business, eh?

Actually, one already did.


(b) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employment agency
to fail or refuse to refer for employment, or otherwise to discriminate
against, any individual because of his race, color, religion, sex, or
national origin, or to classify or refer for employment any individual on
the basis of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

That extends to sexual orientation with the 14th amendment

Additionally, if you look in the article:

The ACLU cited the Unruh Civil Rights Act, which mandates "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever" without regard to sexual orientation or marital status.

BTW, the first part is part of Title VII of Volume 42 of the United States Code, the Civil Rights Act of 1964

[Edited 2006-02-13 10:06:52]
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:07 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 73):

No, you sound ridiculous because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

No, actually, I do not sound ridiculous. The guy was picking apart the intent of the guys trip, something he is in absolutely no position to do or pass judgment on. Read what I quoted next time. I did not even address the legality of the policy.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 75):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 73):
So a cadre of lawyers can just come in and arbitrarily change the policies of any private business, eh?

Actually, one already did.


(b) It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employment agency
to fail or refuse to refer for employment, or otherwise to discriminate
against, any individual because of his race, color, religion, sex, or
national origin, or to classify or refer for employment any individual on
the basis of his race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

That extends to sexual orientation with the 14th amendment

Additionally, if you look in the article:

The ACLU cited the Unruh Civil Rights Act, which mandates "full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities, privileges or services in all business establishments of every kind whatsoever" without regard to sexual orientation or marital status.

BTW, the first part is part of Title VII of Volume 42 of the United States Code, the Civil Rights Act of 1964

That involved a change to the law though - where ELECTED LAWMAKERS changed the law, not a random private group of attorneys with a pet issue, which is what was implied by the previous poster.

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 76):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 73):

No, you sound ridiculous because you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

No, actually, I do not sound ridiculous. The guy was picking apart the intent of the guys trip, something he is in absolutely no position to do or pass judgment on. Read what I quoted next time. I did not even address the legality of the policy.

Where you sounded ridiculous was when you said the following:

He won the tickets, and its his right to use them anywhere he wants to, whether you approve of it or not.

Why he's attempting to use them was immaterial. Fact of the matter is that he does NOT have the "right" to use them if he's taking someone who isn't eligible, full stop.

[Edited 2006-02-13 10:16:07]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N1120A
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:17 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 77):
That involved a change to the law though - where ELECTED LAWMAKERS changed the law, not a random private group of attorneys with a pet issue, which is what was implied by the previous poster.

Well, a lot of people seem to miss that we don't live in France, Germany or another Civil Law country. The laws of the United States and 49 out of 50 states are a mixed Common Law jurisdiction (as they are in the UK and Canada). That means the courts also have a major say in law making.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:25 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 77):

Why he's attempting to use them was immaterial. Fact of the matter is that he does NOT have the "right" to use them if he's taking someone who isn't eligible, full stop.

I was mostly referring to the destination, which was for some reason being critiqued by United737522.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
legend500
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:33 pm

From a PR/financial analysis, the fact that this has hit the press is inexcusable for any NWA stake- or share-holder. NWA will now spend thousands of dollars defending a lawsuit, thousands more in advertising, and thousands more in employee relations just to stave off a problem caused by a $500 ticket. Just stupid, but entirely consistent from an airline with management which has flown them into bankruptcy.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 74):
Unfortunately for homophobics, the average marketing profile of American gay male couples in committed relationships is that of good spending, affluent, above-average yearly incomes (around 60 to 80 thousand/year) well educated and surprise! high yield TRAVELLERS.
For any company in the world to ignore this particular market segment is plain dumb. ESPECIALLY for an airline, for God's sake.

Entirely true, darn glad I don't own the stock.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 73):
So a cadre of lawyers can just come in and arbitrarily change the policies of any private business, eh?



Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 72):
Even so, if NWA recognizes domestic partnerships by providing such benefits to their own employees, then the prudent thing to do would be to make a slight amendment to its interline policy on award tickets by inserting the phrase, "or domestic partner."

And this is the ground the ACLU's cause of action rests upon. Not the policy itself, but the inconsistency between the benefits policy and the non-rev policy. Such a discrepancy does establish actionable grounds, however tenuous.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
None of you guys would be this upset if it were his fraternity buddy from college.

Frat buddies from college are not eligible for benifits, unlike domestic parters. Entirely irrelevant.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
when everything works properly, the majority get what they want.

Read Hobbes' Leviathan, understand that a large amount of our Constitution is dedicated to perserving individual rights over the wishes of the majority, and then come back and say that.

Also, FYI, the majority of Americans voted for Al Gore in 2000. I guess you forgot that inconvenient example of majority (doesn't) rule.
 
Elton
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 24):
NWA gave away two tickets right? So why do they care who the guy takes

exactly!
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:27 pm

What the heck has this go to do with gays??

If I got the tickets and I lived with my girlfriend, we wouldn't be able to use it - If I had posted this on A.net it would have got one reply telling me shut up and read the policy (rightly so!). Because it involves a gay couple it's taken all out of proportion, and people start implying that gays have MORE rights than my girlfriend and I (and I'm male).

It's a clear and simple policy, and applies to gays and non-gays alike.

An interesting side story to this, is that my company has started allowing gay couples to both be covered by the health insurance of one of them -- BUT, I'm living with my girlfriend and she is not covered  Yeah sure Talk about rights...what about mine??


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
AMFAproud
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:47 pm

It's a stupid policy, but NW have the right to be stupid
And they do so well at being stupid!
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting AMFAproud (Reply 78):
It's a stupid policy, but NW have the right to be stupid

I wonder how many people would have said it is stupid, if I mentioned my girlfriend being refused? You'd have told me I wasn't married and that was the policy ... the word 'discrimination' wouldn't have been mentioned - and neither should it.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Blackhawk144
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 59):
bull, there was a point to it, you took what he said and molded it into something that you could use to attack him, who cares is someone would change it or not, you attacked him on something he didnt even say.

What didn't he say that I supposedly attacked him on? As a matter of fact, I hardly call what I said attacking! How dare you say something like that which isn't true. He said like it or change it for the better or shut up. What if I don't want to change it, then I don't have to shut up. Its my freedom not to. I don't have to change things either, I can do what I want.

Anthony
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OzarkD9S
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:24 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 77):


An interesting side story to this, is that my company has started allowing gay couples to both be covered by the health insurance of one of them -- BUT, I'm living with my girlfriend and she is not covered Talk about rights...what about mine??

You're absolutely correct Jimbo. Domestic partner is domestic partner is domestic partner.

As a gay man the domestic partner/civil union/gay marriage issue is a very personal issue with me. But for a moment, look at the big picture. Domestic partner benefits have to begin somewhere. You can solve your temporary status by getting married. Gays, for the most part cannot. It's a catch-22 for us.

Therefore, when we fight for legal recognition we are, in effect fighting for yours as well. Once the definition of what constitutes a couple/family is broadened to include us, it will include you too.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
bobnwa
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:25 pm

Did just about all of you miss the point that the winner of these tickets was an airline employee and the tickets were passes. When you fly on passes you as an airline employee agree to the rules. The passes also would also not allow a long time live in girl friend.

All of you who are screaming anti-gay are jumping to conclusions. Northwest does allow its employees to use use passes for domestic partners and has for a long time.
 
D L X
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 82):
All of you who are screaming anti-gay are jumping to conclusions. Northwest does allow its employees to use use passes for domestic partners and has for a long time.

Right. I get the impression that a lot of the people that are bashing the airline in this thread either 1) didn't read the article, 2) have an ax to grind against NW, or 3) both.

With that said, it would probably be a good idea to rethink the domestic partnership idea as a suitable substitute for spouse, especially if the airline is granting such persons benefits on the lines of what they grant for employees' spouses.

Or, gays can take their fight for marriage rights to Congress and the courts, which of course we know, they currently are. (I'm with them on that fight 100%.)
 
goaliemn
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting MSNtriathlete (Reply 28):
As person in a long-term same-sex relationship and a frequent flyer on NW, I have to say that I'm disappointed in NW for not having better domestic-partner benefits, and frankly surprised, given the fact that domestic partner benefits are fairly common in the private sector in the Midwest, as well as in the airline industry in general.

Jez. NW has great domestic partner benefits, but you are taxed on them because of IRS rules. This is probably whats happening here. If someone brings anyone besides a government recognized family member, then they would have to pay taxes on the prize. Its the way the tax law is written, not company policy. I hope this comes up in court. If ruled against, NW will let them bring whomever they want, but they'll have the value of the prize show up on their tax form as a result.

I know if your married, your spouse gets equal flight benefits, tax free. If you register a domestic partner, they get equal beneifts as well, but you have to pay taxes on the value of the tickets they use. This is an IRS rule, not NW.
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 81):
You can solve your temporary status by getting married. Gays, for the most part cannot. It's a catch-22 for us.

Yes, I can, but right now if I was gay and living with my boyfriend, I would have MORE rights as far as my company's health insurance.

Fight to get gay marriage legalized, or move to a state where it is legal - meanwhile live by the rules and policies ... same as heterosexual. Don't kid me that you're fighting for MY rights - you want the same as me ...problem is you have more rights in some cases!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
georgiaame
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:04 pm

Very tacky, indeed.

NW may have the legal right to discriminate, and as one who believe is the rule of law rather than the rule of the democratic mob, so be it.

But I don't have to fly with them, and neither do you. This is called economic law, and its grasp extends far beyond the legal.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
nyskymasters
Posts: 143
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
It's not an award ticket. It's a non-revenue, space-available pass that only airline employees or their eligible dependents, parents or spouse may use. A domestic partner does not qualify, unfortunately



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 82):
Did just about all of you miss the point that the winner of these tickets was an airline employee and the tickets were passes. When you fly on passes you as an airline employee agree to the rules. The passes also would also not allow a long time live in girl friend.

Last time I looked, NW extends Domestic Partner travel benefits to employees of NW and other airlines.
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1864
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:14 pm

Well, I've never agreed with that IRS tax rule. It is time that it went thru the door.
What about all the other industries that provide fringe benefits to non dependents and the employees providing such are not penalized? Enough is enough!
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
AEROFAN
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:16 pm

And this is plainly silly on NW. If as has already been established NW allows registered companions to travel, then they should have allowed this gentleman to use this pass as this is his registered companion.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.” ~Harlan Ellison~
 
PanAm747
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:33 pm

I think it's time this topic was shelved and archived.

The last topic, on Gay Pride and airline sponsorship, was closed, locked, and deleted.

It is apparent that we could argue on this topic forever and none of the minds would change.

Straight people ALWAYS have the option to get married. Gay people do not. That is the crux of the argument.

Time to move on to the next airline/airplane topic.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 85):


Don't kid me that you're fighting for MY rights - you want the same as me ...problem is you have more rights in some cases!

I support equal rights and status for every law abiding, tax paying citizen, yourself included. Don't presume to know who and what I stand and fight for.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
cx777fan
Posts: 296
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:01 am

I understand his frustration. As a gay man I'd hate to think that if I won a *pair* of tickets, my life-partner wouldn't be able to fly with me if I wanted to visit my elderly relatives who treat him as a son in law.

However forgive my overly simplistic thinking, but if NW were giving away 2 tickets in the first place, why should it matter to them financially or otherwise who the guy took? Why is the spouse clause there in the first place?

This sounds like a storm in a tea cup to me.

Equality for gay couples before the law is a serious - but in this case - somewhat removed issue.
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting CX777Fan (Reply 92):
I understand his frustration. As a gay man I'd hate to think that if I won a *pair* of tickets, my life-partner wouldn't be able to fly with me if I wanted to visit my elderly relatives who treat him as a son in law.

Right, but the same would be true if it was your heterosexual life-partner ... nothing to do with being gay.

Fight for right to gay marriage in your state, and then you'll have equal rights. California government doesn't happen to agree with gay marriage - others do - that's called a democracy folks. Use your vote, lobby, move to a different state, but don't expect MORE rights than heterosexuals.
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
bobnwa
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:17 am

Does this airline employee get to take his domestic partner on his own airline on passes? If so, why his he so concerned about Northwest tickets. Again, Northwest has always been very accommodating regarding domestic partners for its own employees.

Most of you are making this out to be something it isn't.
 
slider
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 82):
Did just about all of you miss the point that the winner of these tickets was an airline employee and the tickets were passes. When you fly on passes you as an airline employee agree to the rules. The passes also would also not allow a long time live in girl friend.

All of you who are screaming anti-gay are jumping to conclusions. Northwest does allow its employees to use use passes for domestic partners and has for a long time.

It took 82 responses for the voice of reason to come out. Thanks Bob.

Personally, I think NW is being stupid, but hey, whatever.
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 37):
That's my point. If you discriminate equally, than, by definition, not discriminatory

It is inherently discriminatory as a gay couple has no chance to meet the rules for marriage.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 79):
I wonder how many people would have said it is stupid, if I mentioned my girlfriend being refused?

Again, you have the ability to marry her as a gay couple does not.

If you make the rules impossible to comply with the law discriminates pure and simple.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:41 am

Boy they are just digging themselves deeper everyday....it's sad.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
FATFlyer
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:49 am

This discussion has focused on gay and hetersexual couples. But there are a number of benefits extended to couples and families not extended to unmarried singles or divorced persons and widows/widowers who are NOT in a relationship or do not have dependents.

In October 2005, California's Unruh Act was amended to include "marital status" by AB 1400, signed by the Governor taking effect 1/1/06. The term "marital status" could end up adding protections for singles, such as the "frat brother" example used above.

Why should someone who loses a spouse or partner after 30 or 40 years in a relationship be treated differently than someone in a current relationship?

Why should a single person pay proportionally more for health benefit than a couple or family?

Why should a single person have to pay "guest" fees for someone to use a gym or country club membership while 2 or more in a couple or family pay just one fee?

I can see some of the societal benefits when there are dependent children involved for some discounts such as healthcare but beyond that discounts based on a relationship status are also discrimination.

Under AB1400 (also called the Civil Rights Act of 2005), since Jan 1 2006, no matter who NW denied using the pass could possibly be illegal in California.

Text of AB 1400
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/...b_1400_bill_20050929_chaptered.pdf

[Edited 2006-02-13 16:53:39]
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Braniff727
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:12 am

Do any of you have any idea how many airlines do NOT extend flight benefits to same sex partners of other airlines?

I no longer have the access to the site, but if someone does check out the ZED Fare site. They have a comprehensive list of airlines and who is allowed to travel on them. Many of them do not allow SSDPs.
Climbing
 
luv2fly
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:40 am

This does not have to do with NW giving its gay employees partner benefits, what it is NW gave away free tickets and thus had the right, even if morally wrong to place restrictions on the tickets! Years ago when I was a travel agent and worked for a tour operator we always got tickets to raffle off at the annual Christmas party and even back then they carried these type of restrictions. Do I agree, no I never have, though bottom line it is NW that is making the gift.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
hardiwv
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:43 am

And dont forget that NW is KLM's partner...whoever took this decision at NW should spend some holidays in AMS.

Rgs,
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 96):
If you make the rules impossible to comply with the law discriminates pure and simple.

Absolutely no different than saying that I can't drink until I'm 21, or that I pay more for health insurance because I live in Florida, etc. etc.

The NW policy is the same for gays AND heterosexuals .. where is the discrimination?? The fact that you cannot get married in another matter entirely ... nothing to do with NW!!!

If the whole population of the USA agreed in gay marriage, and so did the politicians, we'd have gay marriage ... they don't and we don't ... some happen to vote against it, and some don't think it important enough...that's democracy folks.

My cat doesn't get my health insurance because I can't marry my cat. No, it's not a stupid comparison ... if 100 million people wanted to marry their cat - you bet we'd have it legalized.

Fight to change the laws ...don't fight to get different rights from everyone else.

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 97):
Boy they are just digging themselves deeper everyday....it's sad.

Yep, you sure are  


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-02-13 17:55:23]

[Edited 2006-02-13 17:58:32]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SCEagle
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:55 am

It doesn't come down to discrimination so much as choices.

Sort of the beauty of the capitalistic system...

NW has made a choice with it's policy. Other airlines may make different choices.

Based on NW's choice on policy, some customers (likely the gay ones) will make a choice to avoid NW. Other customers may (or may not) make a choice to become more loyal to NW.

Much along the lines of...

NW may make a decision to serve only red licorice and carbonated water on its flights. Based on that decision of policy, customers would make decisions as well. Red Licorice (with carbonated water chaser) devotees would flock to NW. Others would not.

All about choices in the market...
 
N1120A
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 102):
If the whole population of the USA agreed in gay marriage, and so did the politicians, we'd have gay marriage ... they don't and we don't ... some happen to vote against it, and some don't think it important enough...that's democracy folks.

Constitutions and Democracy are 2 different things

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 102):
Fight to change the laws ...don't fight to get different rights from everyone else.

These people aren't looking for different rights, they are looking to have the same rights as everyone else
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
D L X
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 98):
This discussion has focused on gay and hetersexual couples. But there are a number of benefits extended to couples and families not extended to unmarried singles or divorced persons and widows/widowers who are NOT in a relationship or do not have dependents.

Exactly. This poor guy wasn't told no because he is gay, he was told no because his companion is not his spouse.

People, you've done exactly what my friend wanted you to do: infer that Northwest is discriminating against gays. They are not. California is, the United States is, and many many citizens are, but Northwest is not.


Another thing that people really need to realize is that this may very well be yet another case where the company may want to do right, but the government makes them do wrong. Without a doubt, California law is almost irrelevant to an airline when there is a federal law (in this case, taxes) that take precedent. Good luck, California, taking down the feds.
 
bond007
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:01 am

The fact you cannot get married has NOTHING to do with NW. Their policy is plain and simple, across the board, gays and heterosexuals.

If you think that gays should be able to legally marry, then it has nothing to do with this thread!

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
NWBOS
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:04 am

There is really no need for me to chime in here, because the relevant points have been brought up. Although NW cannot be considered a 'leader' on the issue of same-sex couple rights, it has done its part to provide benefits (including medical) to same sex couples. The IRS tax implications need to be updated, but that has nothing to do with NWA.

These space available passes are no different than passes that are given out by other airlines. In the case of domestic partners, there are still many airlines that do not allow registered domestic partners to travel with the discounted type of standby travel (ID90, ZED, etc.) that most airline employees and their dependents enjoy.

Our Skyteam partner DL does not allow domestic partners of NW employees access to ID95 fares, but American Airlines and United (no codeshare or marketing relationship whatsoever) do. Now, explain to me how THAT makes sense. With our longstanding partner KLM, I can't even get discount tickets for my own parents, but on JetBlue, I can. These pass policies are strange and confusing, but I honestly don't think they have anything to do with gay couples. NW has given its domestic partners full flight benefits since 1999 and to accuse them of discrimination is irresponsible.
 
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FlyPIJets
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 105):
Exactly. This poor guy wasn't told no because he is gay, he was told no because his companion is not his spouse.

What a load of B.S. At one time in this country, blacks couldn't vote because they weren't land owners. By your thinking, that wasn't discrimination against blacks, they just happened to not be allowed to own land.

If gays can't marry, they can't have spouses, now can they!?!

And regarding the whole if you don't like it, leave it. The only way a free republic will work is if there are safe guards to protect minorities, in what ever form they may come. Unpopular cartoons in the press, gun ownership, gays, etc....

...the only way to tell if someone really embraces freedom, is do they respect it.

NW can do far better than this.
Rex Kramer: Get that finger out of your ear! You don't know where that finger's been!
 
FATFlyer
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 105):
Without a doubt, California law is almost irrelevant to an airline when there is a federal law (in this case, taxes) that take precedent. Good luck, California, taking down the feds.

We'll see what happens. I understand no suit has been filed yet, just a letter sent to NW.

But I would also not be surprised to see wording similiar to California's introduced in Congress in the next couple of years. So we may see lots of airline policies that will need to be adjusted in the near future.

As a management consultant I've been telling my clients in California to pay attention to AB1400 and talk to their HR lawyer. There will be a number of business practices and policies that may need to be adjusted out here.

BTW, the original wording that California was going to add also included the phrase "familial status". That would have opened another whole can of worms involving treatment of parents vs. non-parents.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Tarheel
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:56 am

If NW wants to continue doing business in CA they had better clean up their act. The law here forbids such discrimination. This couple is registered as Domestic Partners in our state. I hope they sue, so they can fly F/C on an airline that is not as morally bankrupt.
 
D L X
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RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 108):
By your thinking, that wasn't discrimination against blacks, they just happened to not be allowed to own land.

Well, I suppose that's one (distorted) way to look at it, except that when Blacks couldn't vote, it was because the governments made rules for the specific purpose of preventing Blacks from voting. Of note, it is remarkable that Blacks were the only ones affected by the rules. (Whites that didn't own land usually got a pass to vote.)

NW is not a governmental agency. I would challenge you to find that NW set up this policy for the purpose of preventing gays from using the passes. In fact, NW would pay a penalty in taxes for accepting this pass. You wouldn't know it from reading this article (I'm presuming you read the article) because the article was written from the viewpoint of one side. The counterarticle of course would be markedly different.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 108):
If gays can't marry, they can't have spouses, now can they!?!

That really is something gays need to take to the legislatures and the courts. As I said, I'm with you there. I've been there for years.

Quoting FlyPIJets (Reply 108):
The only way a free republic will work is if there are safe guards to protect minorities, in what ever form they may come.

No disagreement there, but you have to aim your sights at the right people.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 109):
I would also not be surprised to see wording similiar to California's introduced in Congress in the next couple of years.

I dunno... the US Congress is *very* anti-gay right now. Bunch of pansies we call Congressmen and Senators afraid of a backlash from gay-hating voters.
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: NW Refuses Gay Couple's Award Tickets

Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Tarheel (Reply 110):
The law here forbids such discrimination. This couple is registered as Domestic Partners in our state.

Federal law trumps state law. If the state law frustrates the purpose of federal law, the state law will be voided insofar as it conflicts with federal law.

I'm really curious to see the other side of the story, but we will likely never know.

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