While folks.... I can't help be thinking I've seen this before. As NW pilots start their strike vote today. We should know within 15 days if NW will be in business or be like Eastern Airlines.

Even though I'm not a big fan of NW. I still do not want to see this airline go under and all of the staff lose their jobs. It is big news here in DTW because next to the Auto companies, NW is the largest employeer of Southeastern Michigan....

I'm sure the Ex-NWA MX folks will be right behind them with their full support just like the pilots were for them......Ooh wait..... Never mind.   

Really hope they don't strike, one for the jobs and two because I'm moving out to Michigan and am going to be counting on NWA as a link back to NYC

This thread seems a little melodramatic. Remember that they are voting to authorize a strike, not to strike. It's not uncommon when labor and management are not getting along in any industry.

ALPA themselves say "Although our goal is to reach a consensual agreement with NWA management, we must be prepared to defend our jobs and our profession, if necessary."

Don't worry, NYC pilot, just take Continental.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3): Remember that they are voting to authorize a strike, not to strike. It's not uncommon when labor and management are not getting along in any industry.

Good point Cubsrule. There is a huge difference between authorizing a strike and striking. That said, this will scare away business and that isn't good for NW jobs in the short-term.

Personally, I think the DL pilots will decide on striking/not-striking first.

Lightsaber

"Don't worry, NYC pilot, just take Continental."

Amen to that, we've already had our dramatic labor problems, come fly with us!

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6): Amen to that, we've already had our dramatic labor problems, come fly with us!

I second that.. CO has WAY BETTER Customer Service and their staff are more professional (Well Cabin Crew anyway)...IMHO

You also have NK that flies between DTW and LGA.

I'm sure if NW pilots go on strike, there will be plenty of other carriers to take advantage of the huge void.

Can you say "WN in DTW?" Robert NWDC10

Quoting NWDC10 (Reply 9): Can you say "WN in DTW?"

Ohh God I hope not!! I think NW will survive, but as a drastically reduced airline. Personally I see them saying goodbye to all the Airbus aircraft (or Boeing for that matter) in the pipeline. The problem with NW is that they do not have a good product, and haven't in more than a decade.

Cant imagine how if NW and DL shut down this quarter??? I dont think I could picture it, this would be a big issue if two major airlines close down so close together, many markets will be empty for a while.

As stubborn as NWA management is. They will let them strike and then hire new pilots at a lower pay scale. That way they can bust the union right down to nothing. Just like they did with the mechanics. Make no mistake about this. NWA is going to bust every union they have and get what they want......

I'm saying that either DL or NW pilots will hit the picket line, but I think it's more likely that NW's pilots will strike, simply because NW's track record with labor is not very good.

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 12): As stubborn as NWA management is. They will let them strike and then hire new pilots at a lower pay scale. That way they can bust the union right down to nothing. Just like they did with the mechanics. Make no mistake about this. NWA is going to bust every union they have and get what they want......

By the time that they hire new pilots, and get them through ground school (usually 6 weeks) plus get them in the SIMS, you're looking at about two months time. NW won't be around if they have to wait for two months to get SCABs trained.

Well, there goes the last DC-10 operator in North America, lol. Now if DL would just follow the same course...   

I was listening to a senior NW ramp agent here at MSY today on the employee shuttle bus and he was saying that management wants to outsource the ramp of EVERY domestic station (except for the hubs). They want to void all contracts and pay everyone $9.00/hour without many benefits. He was saying that the 16th is the key day, and many people have a general idea that NW could close its doors for good.

I guess we'll see.

No airline - NONE - can afford a pilot strike. Despite the FACT that there are very many pilots available who have the skill and FAA certification necessary to operate the jets in NW's fleet, no one but NW-trained pilots can operate NW equipment. Even if a pilot has the appropriate type rating, the FAA requires that a pilot for a 121 carrier complete the training specified in the 121 certificate - so even a pilot who flies, say, A-330s for another airline can't fly NW A-330s without that airline-specific training. There are no pilot scabs who have long careers.

I love DL, and I hope they survive if any legacy does. But I don't hope for a NW pilot strike, because that would mean the end of NW, and the healthier carriers would pick off the best parts of NW like scavengers without a second thought.

I post this only as food for thought for the haters on this site who want the demise of (this legacy) or (that legacy) without regard to the fact that it would mean that they'd actually have to pay for their $399 fares to Europe or Asia. One of these days, the WN or FL lovers will realize they can't non-rev to SIN or ATH on a 737.

I'm crossing my fingers that NW doesn't go under. Though you over in the U.S. don't see it, over here in Japan, NW is the 3rd international carrier after JL and NH with UA coming up 4th.

Imagine the economic loss to Japan and the U.S. with the colapse of one of the few U.S. carriers that connects a domestic market to more destinations in Asia than almost any other carrier. UA can't pick up all that traffic, and no other U.S. carrier has the destinations. If they do go belly up, it will take time to divide up all the routes and slots.

If CO were to come in, then fine just as long as they serve the midwest.

Quoting Moparman (Reply 10): Personally I see them saying goodbye to all the Airbus aircraft (or Boeing for that matter) in the pipline.

Really? I don't see that at all. I am seeing that they need both. They need something that can replace the DC-10 and something to provide frequency in replacement of the 744...yes the 744. They can't wait around for the 787 to do both Asia and Europe...the DC-10s need to go. They can't use A330s on all their Asia routes as they would have massive restrictions on MSP/DTW to Asia.

If NW can pull out of this mess, I see the DC-9s gone. Mainline Domestic is all A319/320 and some 757s. We might see some A333s on the beach market. NewCo will have CRJ/EMB doing regional to HUB and non-stop point-to-point routes. International to Europe will be A333s. International to Asia will be A332 and 787s. Some 744s will stick around but be phased out in favor of frequency and overflying Japan.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18): I'm crossing my fingers that NW doesn't go under.

On the other hand, I'm crossing my fingers HOPING that NW does go under.
Its the shake up that the industry needs.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18): Imagine the economic loss

... this loss would only be termporary. Then it should help the industry recover and become stronger in the long run.

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 19): On the other hand, I'm crossing my fingers HOPING that NW does go under.

That's fun in the abstract. What do your crossed fingers tell the kids of NW employees who are HOPING their parents can pay for their food/clothes/school next year?

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 19): On the other hand, I'm crossing my fingers HOPING that NW does go under. Its the shake up that the industry needs

To all you nwa lovers....welcome to our world...when you kool aid drinking nwa DC9 loving folks were dancing in the streets dreaming of uniteds demise and low and behold....2 things happened......chain saw steenland came to town and .....united PREVAILED....at least 3 weeks out of ch11(thats nothing short of a miracle)...karma is indeed a good thing and that has made a rather upbeat group of folks enjoying out almost certain shutdown a great humbling experience to you folks up north....


burnsie28,
marion house soup kitchen is across from holy family cathederal....

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 12): As stubborn as NWA management is. They will let them strike and then hire new pilots at a lower pay scale. That way they can bust the union right down to nothing. Just like they did with the mechanics. Make no mistake about this. NWA is going to bust every union they have and get what they want......

As has already been pointed out, if the pilots do walk, NWA management will be SOL! It would be atleast a 3 month strike before the first scab was qualified. In addition to the ground school, which NWA could farm out, you have the simulator training, which NWA could also farm out. But, the "fly in the ointment" is trying to get line training done. How do you do that if there are no pilots and flights? First you'd have to train the line instructors and get them qualified as Check Airmen. I think the windows would be boarded up in Eagan long before that happened.

I am stuck. On one hand, our industry needs SOMETHING to happen. I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that at least one big player in the US airline market needs to concede. None of us wants to see it. None of us wants to see our hometown or hub carrier falter. On the other hand, my city and my state depend on NW. With the hub that NW has created in MSP, we directly serve just about every state in the United States, and sometimes have even served the most states of any airport in the United States (I counted 46 at one point). For this size city, we have some pretty amazing direct international flights (ie. NRT, AMS, LGW [when it actually flies...]) as well. I see many other medium-sized metro areas across the nation that can't boast the same kind of direct service. NW brings the world to Minneapolis, and Minneapolis to the world.

We have one of the world's largest airlines based in of all places, Minneapolis (well OK Eagan, which is really more St. Paul, but you get the idea). It is one of the larger civilian employers in this state. It has long-standing roots here and seems to develop and defend its "home turf" whenever and wherever it can. But more importantly, NW's hub facilitates the existance of many large corporations in and around Minneapolis/St. Paul. I could go down the list of large corporations, and Fortune 500 corporations based here, which usually exist someplace bigger than us. Whether you like NW or not, they DO get the business travelers here directly. Even in the worst of times and in the lousiest weather, MSP seems to never stop rolling.

A wise man once said, "...when you have read the last page, it is time to close the book." But what happens in the next book in the series? IF NW were to close its doors, what would happen to MSP as an airport? As a market? (actually we can fill in the blanks for DTW and MEM as well) More than likely, another airline would try to fill the void. Would MSP exist as a real hub? Perhaps, but maybe not. Local control would probably be gone. We would almost become a bastard step-child kind of market, where the international routes may possibly dwindle away and direct service to many markets could cease to exist. I'm sure that many of you who work in hubs for other airlines may agree that hubs in a non-headquarters city can be awkward in ways.

If NW closes its doors, I will be saddened, as they have dutifully served us for years and have a long-standing local heritage. I grew up seeing the red-tail fly over all day and expect it. Nobody here can doubt the fact that NW is a very colorful carrier which elicits much discussion about all the crazy things they do (labor issues, NRT hub, "what will they do with the DC9s?", etc.). But if the red-tail stops flying, what else may disappear from this community?

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 23): If NW closes its doors, I will be saddened, as they have dutifully served us for years

It would be a sad day for KLM too. NW is one of the main feeders for our European flights. It is already noticable with the snow in the Northeast paralizing flights: yesterday afternoon KL's European flights were empty.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 7): second that.. CO has WAY BETTER Customer Service and their staff are more professional (Well Cabin Crew anyway)...IMHO

I'll third that!

Quoting Wedgetail737 (Reply 8): I'm sure if NW pilots go on strike, there will be plenty of other carriers to take advantage of the huge void

I guess the fate of McNamara Terminal will be that of the Silverdome  

Two friends and I flew ATL-OMA last summer X in MSP each direction. We were treated professionally by every NW employee we encountered. We even commented amongst each other how refreshing it was to encounter such nice people. On one leg a gate agent went way over and above the call of duty, and put all three of us on an earlier flight ---thus getting us to our destination about two hours earlier--- without the usual $ penalty we endure from our "hometown" airline.

Also got to fly on a "Jurassic-9" on one leg. Interesting comparison to the A-320 on the next leg------what a difference in technology!

Anyway, I sure hate to see anything happen to threaten the exsistance of NW. I hope all the issues will be resolved, and NW will survive.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 16): I was listening to a senior NW ramp agent here at MSY today on the employee shuttle bus and he was saying that management wants to outsource the ramp of EVERY domestic station (except for the hubs). They want to void all contracts and pay everyone $9.00/hour without many benefits

I think you better check back with your friend. The IAM which is the union your friend belongs to has already reached an agreement with Northwest that includes the following.
1. All ramp jobs at the hubs and all other stations with 10 or more flights a day will remain with the IAM and mainline Northwest.
2. The wages agreed upon are significantly higher that $9.00 an hour.
3. Not sure about all benefits but IAM will take over the pension and medical will change slightly.

Either your friend does not read his NWA and IAM notifications or someone is making up stories!!

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 27): Either your friend does not read his NWA and IAM notifications or someone is making up stories!!

NW wants the IAM out, they will do anything still to bust the union outside the Hubs. Dont say an agreement is made and nothing to worry about, anything can change and the first thing management wants is to get rid of IAM.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 28): NW wants the IAM out, they will do anything still to bust the union outside the Hubs. Dont say an agreement is made and nothing to worry about, anything can change and the first thing management wants is to get rid of IAM.

Are you aware that the IAM membership is voting presently on the IAM/NWA proposal? Seems to contradict what you are saying.

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 17): One of these days, the WN or FL lovers will realize they can't non-rev to SIN or ATH on a 737.

Ummm... I'll never get to non-rev. (I don't qualify.) My international flying isn't covered by any one network airline either...

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 23): I am stuck. On one hand, our industry needs SOMETHING to happen. I'm pretty sure that most of us agree that at least one big player in the US airline market needs to concede. None of us wants to see it. None of us wants to see our hometown or hub carrier falter.

One of the better posts on this thread. Well said. Although any one big player conceding would only buy one to three years of "breathing space" for the others.

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 23): But what happens in the next book in the series? IF NW were to close its doors, what would happen to MSP as an airport? As a market? (actually we can fill in the blanks for DTW and MEM as well) More than likely, another airline would try to fill the void. Would MSP exist as a real hub?

First, I want neither NW or DL to fail. I happen to like both airlines and recognize they are going through a tough time. But I would like to answer the questions possed:

If NW closes, MSP like STL would cease to be a large hub (as in one of the major hubs of the world). IIRC, something on the order of 50% to 70% of all of the traffic through there is connecting. Without the connecting traffic, fewer destinations would be served. Thus, some demand would be lost as destinations leave the MSP route map. On the other hand, there would be a feeding frenzy at MSP, DTW, and to a lesser extent MEM that would drive down airfares at those airports (long term, short term getting onto a flight could be tough). But it will take years for traffic to build back up to its current level. Unfortunately, the region would lose quite a few jobs for good, but should recover completely within 3 to 5 years. Replace MSP with ATL and the statement holds true too (although FL would make it a major hub, eventually).

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 21): To all you nwa lovers....welcome to our world...when you kool aid drinking nwa DC9 loving folks were dancing in the streets dreaming of uniteds demise and low and behold....2 things happened......chain saw steenland came to town and .....united PREVAILED....at least 3 weeks out of ch11(thats nothing short of a miracle)...karma is indeed a good thing and that has made a rather upbeat group of folks enjoying out almost certain shutdown a great humbling experience to you folks up north....

Carefull. Don't wish NW too much ill will. UA isn't in the black yet. Yes, a miracle of a recovery at a cost of 40,000 jobs out of 98,000. Pretty amazing and an incredible jump in efficiency for UA, true.

I really hope to see the day NW begins to fly the DC-9 replacement.

Lightsaber

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 30): If NW closes, MSP like STL would cease to be a large hub (as in one of the major hubs of the world). IIRC, something on the order of 50% to 70% of all of the traffic through there is connecting. Without the connecting traffic, fewer destinations would be served.

MSP-CHI: 2768 pax/day
STL-CHI: 1935 pax/day

MSP-NYC: 2099 pax/day
STL-NYC: 1209 pax/day

MSP-LAX: 1835 pax/day
STL-LAX: 1178 pax/day

MSP-ATL: 1220 pax/day
STL-ATL: 593 pax/day

See a pattern? MSP wouldn't see the service it does now, but it would certainly not be like STL. Hell, they could probably sustain an AMS flight.

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 16): He was saying that the 16th is the key day, and many people have a general idea that NW could close its doors for good.

A friend of mine is a pilot for NW and was telling me the other day that has about had it with them treating him like a "glorified bus driver" and is looking to head over to jetBlue. I remember what a great airline NW use to be. My dad use to fly them all the time to MSP and DTW (he put the NW people movers in at both) and I flew them once BDL-DTW-PBI-DTW-BDL and thought the service was very good. Although I feel the company has already sentenced itself to death, I will miss the red tails.

[Edited 2006-02-15 06:06:56]

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 15): Well, there goes the last DC-10 operator in North America, lol. Now if DL would just follow the same course...

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 19): On the other hand, I'm crossing my fingers HOPING that NW does go under.

Hahaha, people losing their jobs! Hysterical! The misfortune of others is always good for a laugh!

You both need help.

B

Quoting NonRevKing (Reply 33): Hahaha, people losing their jobs! Hysterical! The misfortune of others is always good for a laugh! You both need help.

That is one thing I've never understood about the NW/DL threads. People excited others will be out of work. People excited states economies will be destroyed when all these people hit the unemployment lines.

So many are out to destroy Steeland that they are completely blind to all the other worker bees at the airline that have nothing to do with the decision making process.

Why does it take 2 weeks for the pilot strike vote? It seems to me it could be done in 2-3 days.

Quoting BUFjets (Reply 35): Why does it take 2 weeks for the pilot strike vote?

They have to wait for the republicans to come in and verify all the pregnant and dangling chads.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 13): I'm saying that either DL or NW pilots will hit the picket line, but I think it's more likely that NW's pilots will strike, simply because NW's track record with labor is not very good.

For what ever reason DL old-timers have too much love and passion to see thier company go down at thier hands.

No one will strike. Each side will hold out until the last second and then they will reach an agreement. Face it, the pilots are just like most of us.... they have bills. Credit Card bills from Christmas, taxes due, etc.. Like I said.... No one will stirke...lessons were learned from Eastern.

I'm truly amazed that it has taken NW this long to activate the chopping block. When US Airways went through this a year ago, people thought it was too late, but lo and behold, they're still flying around and many of its employees still have jobs. It really, really sucks that the unionized employees cannot preserve the wages they fought for years ago. I wish all of them well and hope that whatever happens it is the best possible situation for the airline and as many employees as possible.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 37): For what ever reason DL old-timers have too much love and passion to see thier company go down at thier hands.

I agree...there isn't nearly the passion/family atmosphere at NW, from all I've seen.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 18): NewCo will have CRJ/EMB doing regional to HUB and non-stop point-to-point routes.

Flown by piss-paid former mainline pilots? I'd rather see the company fold than for management to get their way on this one, and I'm sure alot of the pilots have committed themselves to it. If NW can do it, who's to stop the other airlines? Enough is enough.

DeltaGuy

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 40): If NW can do it, who's to stop the other airlines? Enough is enough.

US Airways has authorized up to 83 CRJ-900's to be flown at lowly Mesa wages. This is exactly in the average seat range of Newco. No one is stopping the other airlines.. they've already done it. Its keeping up with the competition pure and simple.

I used to enjoy reading these posts, but these are getting ridiculous. It is a strike VOTE and everyone is predicting the end of the airline. I doubt very seriously NW wants a costly strike. Any idiot knows a strike would kill the company. Both sides playing hard ball like they do at every negotiation. This isn't much different than in years past. NWs actions are in direct result of what is happening at other carriers. People want to pay Wal-Mart prices, they live with the consequences. Everyone wants everything on the cheap and something has to give. That being said, NWs number one problem is they feel the employees have no long term memory. We are still owed from the last concession and wouldn't give back until forced by bankruptcy. They tried and tried and tried. They really did it to themselves. So here they are again having to play hardball, it is just the way the company operates. The plan for the future is the 330, 744, and 787 to be the backbone of the international fleet. 757, A319/A320, and DC9-40/50 will make up most of domestic fleet. NW has spelled that out. DC9-30 future still up in the air with pilot negotiations and ability to acquire larger regional jets.
As for NWs demise....a bit premature, folks.

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 21): burnsie28, marion house soup kitchen is across from holy family cathederal....

LOL!

Quoting NWAskyteam (Reply 42): Everyone wants everything on the cheap and something has to give

Amen, NWASkyteam! If NWA management and the god forsaken IAM can get through this, more power to them, and I for one, dont mind spending the extra $100 - $450 for better service on CO. On my trip from SLC to HKG in two weeks, Im going SLC-IAH-EWR-HKG just because I think its worth it service-wise.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4): Don't worry, NYC pilot, just take Continental.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6): Amen to that, we've already had our dramatic labor problems, come fly with us!

Continental is my favorite airline and gets my business on almost every other route but I just find their prices to always be much higher than NW on the NYC-DTW flights. NW works out well for me though, cheaper fares, maineline aircraft (CO only uses ERJs to DTW), and I get onepass miles for each flight.