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PanAm747
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Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:46 am

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060214/news_1m14airport.html

In short, a previously discarded idea of taking out the Marine Corps Recruit Depot and placing a parallel runway in its place has been resurrected. Instead of taking out an entire district (19,000 residents and hundreds of businesses), this would only require the Marine Corps to relocate this one particular site to one of their other facilities in San Diego county, most probably Camp Pendleton.

It will be interesting...it might just work.
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brink777
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:02 am

it would be great or a new airport at miramar would also be great.

all the other sites proposed suck !!!!!!!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:03 am

A 15% increase in capacity is not cost recoverable for the $3-4 billion it will cost to move MCRD and it's historical landmarks and build the runway. I.E... A new airport at Miramar that doubles capacity would be $5-7 Billion. Done right, Miramar could house LAX which is a long term solution, not another bandaid.

Read between the lines:

A delegation from the San Diego County Regional Airport Authority will visit the Pentagon on Thursday to discuss joint use of a Marine Corps or Navy base for a regional airport.

This means:

Miramar
Pendleton
North Island

The MCRD option was also ruled out previously because of historical buildings on MCRD and terrain (read downtown). It can only be used one way. Depart West and arrive from the East with a hard right missed approach, likely with horrible minimums due to the downtown area which makes the present terrain problem look trivial. It's also only 9,400' which means it only solves a very small portion of the domestic capacity issue. This would only push the problem off for about 20 years. Then what?

Went through this in the mid 90's only to watch politicians get stupid by fighting over who would control Miramar (City vs. Port District) - now both are out of the equation. Miramar has always been the best solution.

[Edited 2006-02-14 19:05:40]
 
redflyer
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:04 am

Oh dear, I have a feeling some know-it-alls (who don't) are going to try and rip the Union-Tribune article and this thread a new hole.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Trvlr
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:08 am

The article says that the Airport Authority is possibly studying this option to demonstrate just how unworkeable it is, as was the case with the other dual-runway option proposed a few months ago.

I didn't know that Susan Davis had gotten involved in the dual-use debate. We'll see how that plays out, especially with the election for Cunningham's replacement coming up.

Aaron G.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 3):
Oh dear, I have a feeling some know-it-alls (who don't) are going to try and rip the Union-Tribune article and this thread a new hole.

Its a pretty straight forward article if you ask me. Its also letting the local military know that local commentary isn't the real issue. The decision on Joint use (where the DoD recommended Miramar Realignment but the BRAC commission reversed) is at the DC level.

Plain as day about DoD opinion on Miramar:

http://www.defenselink.mil/brac/pdf/pt2_08_indo.pdf

Assuming no economic recovery, this recommendation could result in a maximum potential reduction of 1,279 jobs (623 direct jobs and 656 indirect jobs) over the 2006-2011 period in the San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA Metropolitan Statistical Area, which is less than 0.1 percent of economic area employment.

This has yet to be released as well, oddly Pendleton remains an option in potential lieu of Miramar:

http://www.mv22eiswest.net/

Quoting Trvlr (Reply 4):
I didn't know that Susan Davis had gotten involved in the dual-use debate. We'll see how that plays out, especially with the election for Cunningham's replacement coming up.

At least someone has a pair...  Smile

[Edited 2006-02-14 19:20:32]
 
lgbflttrainer
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:41 am

I am curious, Boeing7E7 (I'm not being a smarta**, I'm serious)...how would relocating LAX to Miramar be a long-term solution for Los Angeles? Given that it's nearly 2 hour between the two entities, on a good day (3+ hours with traffic), I'm not sure I follow the thought you have on this...

thanks...
Overt enthusiast...like that's a BAD thing?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting LGBFltTrainer (Reply 6):
I am curious, Boeing7E7 (I'm not being a smarta**, I'm serious)...how would relocating LAX to Miramar be a long-term solution for Los Angeles? Given that it's nearly 2 hour between the two entities, on a good day (3+ hours with traffic), I'm not sure I follow the thought you have on this...



This is a discussion of SAN relocation/expansion options. Miramar, as an option can house an airport the size of LAX as the SAN replacement going forward long term. It wouldn't start that big, but the land mass makes an airport of such size doable long term.

[Edited 2006-02-14 21:00:01]
 
lgbflttrainer
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:27 am

Ah...ok, simple misunderstanding of how you were referencing LAX...you're saying that Miramar could house an airport THE SIZE of LAX...

My bad...thanks for the clarification...

And, I fully agree...a long-term solution is needed, and Miramar would definitely fill that bill...
Overt enthusiast...like that's a BAD thing?
 
irelayer
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:12 am

If anyone listened to "These Days" with Tom Fudge (local San Diego show) this morning on NPR they had a guy from the Airport Authority and a guy from the North County economic development board on and they took calls. Nothing new was brought up however...a bunch of people called with suggestions that have been discussed to death on this board (McClellan as a reliever airport, closely spaced parallel runways at SAN, SAN/TIJ joint airport, etc...). The capital investment required to retrofit SAN with two runways, the potential political "wiggling", all the relocation etc is not worth it for just a small increase in capacity that will not meet the long-term needs of the area.

I just realized I agree with Boeing7e7...that doesn't always happen...:P

-IR
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 9):
I just realized I agree with Boeing7e7...that doesn't always happen...:P

That's the difference between talking shop and talking politics.
 
DCAYOW
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
In short, a previously discarded idea of taking out the Marine Corps Recruit Depot and placing a parallel runway in its place

The runway would not be parallel, it would be in an open V shape. It gets us very little in the way of capacity as it would only be usable for departures most of the time and the curfew would probably be extended to that field as well.
Retorne ao céu...
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting DCAYOW (Reply 11):
curfew would probably be extended to that field as well.

Probably???? All those neighbors hoping for a move to see this rolled out as the solution in the end? Lindbergh might look like Baghdad if that happened.

 Smile
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:49 am

As the article says, however, the proposal does not address the white-knuckle approach on to the airport, nor would it be of any use in terms of dual runway ops, plus local residents would have a fit.

IMHO, I don't see this proposal going anywhere.

Charles, SJ
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 13):
IMHO, I don't see this proposal going anywhere.

I wouldn't worry much about that. The per pax cost to the airlines for it would be off the charts for the poor capacity gain.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 3:52 am

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060215/news_lz1ed15top.html

It does appear that finally cooler heads are prevailing.

From the article:

Quote:
Nor is the revived discussion of adding a second truncated runway at Lindbergh Field, thereby wiping out the Marine Corps Recruit Depot, a serious alternative.

Thankfully!!
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Thu Feb 16, 2006 4:15 am

Love this stuffs:

Toward that end, it is indeed heartening that a delegation from the San Diego County Regional Airport Authority will meet this week with Assistant Navy Secretary BJ Penn to open a dialogue on the airport issue.

The knee-jerk opposition to joint use by local base commanders must be overcome, and the sooner the better. In the end, the siting of a replacement civilian airfield will be decided by their higher-ups in the Pentagon and, quite possibly, by their higher-ups in Congress.

In the months ahead, then, the merits of joint use at Miramar or North Island or Camp Pendleton will come into sharper focus. If done correctly, a civilian airport at any of these bases would not unduly hamper the military's operations. And there would be one huge advantage for the Pentagon in these times of tight budgets – cost sharing. That is, a civilian airport, which is a cash cow under any circumstances, would pick up a big share of the cost of operating the base, saving the military millions of dollars a year.

Having local media in your camp is huge peeps.

To think this all could have been solved with the BRAC had the Airport Authority not been prevented from pleading it's case to the commission months ago by local political clowns. Particularly the village idiot now facing jail time Duke Cunningham.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:10 am

Navy to San Diego Airport Authority:

Navy: 'We will cooperate' on new airport site


http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060217/news_7m17airport.html

My faith in the sane prevailing is renewed....
 
28L28L
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:11 am

Does anyone remember when the old Rwy 13-31 closed?
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting 28L28L (Reply 18):

Early 1990's. It wasn't very useful and the City controlled airport land use at the time and wanted to build up downtown the way it is today making the runway completely useless. They circumvented the Port Districts Authority as it has for years which is a big part of Lindberghs problem with terrain. Too much encroachment, lack of vision. The City has also made the same foolish decisions around Montgomery and Brown Field by approving incompatible development around them. This is one of the problems (aside from the terrain issue) at Brown. The City approved homes on the land they own around Brown a few years ago. Don't know what the status is these days regarding Brown, don't live there anymore. If it's any indication of the poor decisions with regard to the City airports (which are separate from Lindbergh that is owned and operated by the new Airport Authority), the City Airports Director was fired a few months ago.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:16 am

First, as I read the link, they are simply doing due dillegence to prove that a 2nd runway is not a cost economical approach for Lindbergh. This will allow for an end to the 2nd runway option at Lindbergh and instead focus on SAN2.

Quoting Brink777 (Reply 1):
it would be great or a new airport at miramar would also be great.

all the other sites proposed suck !!!!!!!

Miramar (north and south) are the two best sites I've seen. While I hate to displace the military airfield, with all of the base closures that are going to occur, why not make one an economic plus.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 2):
A 15% increase in capacity is not cost recoverable for the $3-4 billion it will cost to move MCRD and it's historical landmarks and build the runway. I.E... A new airport at Miramar that doubles capacity would be $5-7 Billion. Done right, Miramar could house LAX which is a long term solution, not another bandaid.

I'm a big proponent for expanding SAN if it could be done wisely. It could be by a 2nd runway or a new airport. But I have to agree 100% with Boeing7E7, a 15% increase isn't worth spending more than $100 million or $200 million. Even at that, San Deigo wouldn't even notice another 15% increase in capacity, but they sure would notice the new runway going in. The region needs 2X to 3X the airport capacity. 1.15X... ugh. Do the study, reject the plan, move on to build an airport in Mirimar.

Quoting LGBFltTrainer (Reply 8):
And, I fully agree...a long-term solution is needed, and Miramar would definitely fill that bill...

 checkmark  It needs to be within 45 minutes of downtown San Diego (during anything but the worst hour of traffic), have long enough runways for international flights, and allow for major expansion. Mirimar seems to be the last site standing that makes any sense.

One question, could Mirimar be made into a 3 or 4 runway airport later on? E.g, 3 runways in a configuration like PHX or 4 like ATL pre 5th runway? Looking on google earth, displacing a small section of freeway (or building a bridge a la 5th runway at ATL, gives a space 8,000 feet away from the current long runway (3,500m long by measurement on google earth). To me, that's room for 4 runways. Two on the north, one the current long runway, another 1,000 to 1,250 feet further south, than one 3,500 feet further south and the last 8,000 feet (centerline to centerline) south of the northern runway. LAX2 with decent runway spacing!

Don't take offense, but I don't expect SAN to ever run 50% widebodies a la LHR; but that region *needs* more capacity. IIRC, SAN accomodates 50% of San Diego's needs, 25% drive up to LAX (some SNA/LGB, but not much), and 25% of the potential traffic differs the flight due to SAN being impacted. So I wish they would stop meeting and build the new airport! Two runways will be filled very quickly. Like I said earlier, build it within 45 minutes of downtown San Diego (with all but the worst hour's of traffic); any further away makes no sense to me; it wouldn't be a San Diego airport, but rather a Riverside or rural So Cal airport.

Lightsaber
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
One question, could Mirimar be made into a 3 or 4 runway airport later on?

4 max build out (2 dependent pairs). You can fit LAX on there.

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
but I don't expect SAN to ever run 50% widebodies a la LHR

787 perfect bird for about six international markets, outside of that, not much going. Sure as heck aren't going to see the 380.  

Then again, no move and the only option will be 787-300's all day, Southwest will abandon the market because of slot allocation. Imagine the parking lot trying to get there. SAN works... For a price. Yuck!

[Edited 2006-02-17 19:44:33]
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:35 am

Well, not to beat a dead horse, but El Toro could have/should have been added to consideration. Despite the fact that OC wants it to be houses, it's still viable airport land. Had the goverment had any foresight, they could have-

A) Kept the Marines at El Toro, and given Mirimar to San Diego right away
B) Moved Pendleton and the recruiting distruct to El Toro and given the land to SAN for their new runway
C) Given El Toro up for a new airport, OCX I believe it was to be called.

Either way, SoCal is running out of land and out of options, but only growing by the day. It's a damn shame to waste one big airport they could have used. Cooler heads need to prevail.

DeltaGuy

[Edited 2006-02-17 21:40:40]
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lehpron
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RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 21):
787 perfect bird for about six international markets, outside of that, not much going. Sure as heck aren't going to see the 380.

I'm not so sure about that.  Wink If we are going to end up with an airport that has twice or thrice the capacity of SAN now, we will be creating a market for the "if you build it they will come" crowd. Not all our capacity future will be regional, seems only prudent to plan for a visit by A380's at some opint down the line, be it decades. This airport replacement is designed for the future, not just a decade maybe 60 YEARS?

What kind of future do you any of see:

  • SAN2 becoming the regional hub the southerm California making LAX the international hub of the the entire south west USA?

  • SAN2 eleviates LAX's region/domestic traffic while self expanding, with few international traffic?

  • SAN2 takes up all it's intended overcapcity with few international flights but no such eleviation of LAX?

  • Or a combination of the above three?

  • Or another option apart from the above four?
  • The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
     
    Boeing7E7
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:53 am

    Quoting Lehpron (Reply 23):
    seems only prudent to plan for a visit by A380's at some opint down the line, be it decades. This airport replacement is designed for the future, not just a decade maybe 60 YEARS?

    Who says the 380 will be flying in 60 years?  
    480? 580?

    Quoting Lehpron (Reply 23):
    Or a combination of the above three?

    Combination. Domestic capacity met very long term, small initial International development to key points with 787/350 sized aircraft (the first 10-15 years after opening), then reverse market cynergies (20-25 years) - Regionals connect to not only LAX International flights, but also San Diego from the larger regional markets such as SBA, FAT, PSP etc...). LAX bears the A380/747 size bird, SAN becomes a 787/777/350 playground.

    Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 22):
    Well, not to beat a dead horse, but El Toro could have/should have been added to consideration.

    That's an issue for another market to deal with.

    All told, both airports at El Toro and Miramar are completely justified to fix the SoCal problem. Ironically, had the issue been solved when Miramar was closed by the BRAC (prior to being converted to a Marine Base while the City and Port fought over control) and LAX acted to support Orange County with El Toro there'd be two airports being built today.

    [Edited 2006-02-17 22:59:05]
     
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    lightsaber
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:40 am

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 21):
    4 max build out (2 dependent pairs). You can fit LAX on there.

    Looks good to me. Thanks.

    Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 22):

    Either way, SoCal is running out of land and out of options, but only growing by the day. It's a damn shame to waste one big airport they could have used. Cooler heads need to prevail.

     checkmark 

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
    All told, both airports at El Toro and Miramar are completely justified to fix the SoCal problem. Ironically, had the issue been solved when Miramar was closed by the BRAC (prior to being converted to a Marine Base while the City and Port fought over control) and LAX acted to support Orange County with El Toro there'd be two airports being built today.

    It should have been done with a loan to the Marines only forgiven if an airport was built at El Toro. I'll agree both airports should already be under construction.

    As to what will San Diego become? I expect mostly a large O&D destination 2X to 3X the current size with moderate international routes.

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
    SAN becomes a 787/777/350 playground.

    Here is the first place I disagree. Since LAX already has connections, most likely it will remain the US West coast hub for international flights. Then again, SFO used to be, so maybe I'll be proven wrong. Either way, build the airport and lets see what happens!

    Lightsaber
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    DTWAGENT
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:48 am

    Well, I do agree that SAN needs to do something. The airport is getting more and more traffic every year. I would think it would be a good Idea to build a new up to date (in tech.) airport. Because SAN is growing like mad. My wife and I go out their a lot to see family. And I have notice how hard it is starting to get to move around the airport. So my vote would be for a new airport.
     
    PSA727
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:26 am

    The county really needs to get over this "put another baid-aid on it and
    call it a day" mentality! Adding a parallel runway will do nothing about gate
    space or road access. But most importantly, a second runway will do nothing
    about noise restrictions, take-off weight restrictions, and fog!

    There is nothing more annoying than landing at SAN, then being diverted to LAX and waiting for a bus at midnight for the journey down to SAN. And to pour salt on the wounds, after making the failed landing attempt, seeing the lights of Miramar down below from the window as we head up towards LAX.

    The noise retrictions prevent any carrier from scheduling a departure past
    11pm; which is why we don't have overnights to DFW or MSP. And if you're
    on an overnight flight, they tend to leave about a 1/2 hour to an hour earlier
    than their counterparts out of LAX, which makes for a longer connection at
    your stopover point. Nice!

    And if the area ever wants to see nonstops to Europe or Asia, they're going
    to have to give airlines better operations to work with, and short runways is not one of them.
    fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
     
    lehpron
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:08 am

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
    SAN becomes a 787/777/350 playground.

    Exactly what I was thinking in short term (I see short-term generally at 10yrs)

    I found another article that I thought was quite ammusing: From the SD UnionTrib, January 23, 2006:
    Miramar a mirage for airport developers

    I want to see it though, NIMBY's may have numbers but are still ignorant...  Wink
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    san747
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 12:26 pm

    Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 20):
    Don't take offense, but I don't expect SAN to ever run 50% widebodies a la LHR; but that region *needs* more capacity.



    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
    SAN becomes a 787/777/350 playground.

    That'll be just fine with me, considering the only widebodies (passengers) are a daily DL 767 and daily HA 767...
    Scotty doesn't know...
     
    halls120
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:19 pm

    Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 22):
    A) Kept the Marines at El Toro, and given Mirimar to San Diego right away

    No way the Marines could have stayed at El Toro. Way too much development around the airport.

    Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
    All told, both airports at El Toro and Miramar are completely justified to fix the SoCal problem. Ironically, had the issue been solved when Miramar was closed by the BRAC (prior to being converted to a Marine Base while the City and Port fought over control) and LAX acted to support Orange County with El Toro there'd be two airports being built today.

    Given the housing density around El Toro - and mind you, these aren't cheap houses - El Toro had NO chance of conversion to a civilian airport.
    "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
     
    DeltaGuy
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:41 pm

    Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
    Given the housing density around El Toro - and mind you, these aren't cheap houses - El Toro had NO chance of conversion to a civilian airport.

    Who the hell's fault is that though...the damn NIMBY's. The base was there long before they were. Bunch of self serving ballwashing bastards IMHO. They're having wild parties now that they've defeated the airport, and if it continues to go their way, absolutely zero will remain of the base, it'll be "green park meadows", but in reality it will ultimately be more expensive houses. Yet the residents will rely on SNA and LAX for their travel needs...when you're rich, why bother having the airport in your backyard huh? Hope someone can do some manuevering to turn this travesty around.

    Had cooler heads prevailed, despite the noise, the Marines would have stayed at El Toro and Tustin, and we probably would have had the airport at Mirimar. Ideally, all of the above would have remained military bases, but that's just me  Wink

    DeltaGuy
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    Boeing7E7
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    RE: Dual Runway Concept Resurfaces At SAN

    Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:05 pm

    Idiocy prevails:

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060218/news_7m18airport.html

    Un-freakin' believable.

    Memo to Navy: You can't support troops without a vibrant economy - national or regional.

    Consider this:

    1. Lindbergh contributes 5 times more to the regional economy than does Miramar a new airport would double that to $7.6 Billion a year.
    2. Does the Department of the Navy really have a need for 40% of the land mass in San Diego County?
    3. Does it need Miramar for the MV-22 or can they operate at Pendleton in light of the Navy's consideration to use Pendleton as the MV-22 base if the Environmental Impact Statement says Miramar is not compatible?

    http://www.mv22eiswest.net/

    Quoting Halls120 (Reply 30):
    Given the housing density around El Toro - and mind you, these aren't cheap houses - El Toro had NO chance of conversion to a civilian airport.

    Most of the development occured after the closure because land use policy was not in place. Mind you, the base closed over 10 years ago and the issue took 8 years to be resolved and no-one, absolutely no-one did anythign to prevent development during this time. This is why new airport land use law was passed in California 3 years ago.

    It'll be interesting to see if the Airport Authority has the nads to launch a PR war over Miramar. Stage IV commerical aircraft in 20 years vs. the incredibly loud MV-22 Osprey - aka flying coffin (The fixed wing training is going to Eglin and most of the F-18's at Miramar retire in 2010 - the rest move to Yuma). Judging from what they said about the "Navy Cooperating" day one, when they apparently said "pound sand" they just might.

    [Edited 2006-02-18 14:22:44]

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