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ptharris
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:58 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 43):
Quoting Ptharris (Reply 18):
GO SOMEWHERE ELSE!!

Where?
signed:
All DL employees

Yeah, they will be asking that if the demise actually happens. That was actually aimed at the pilots, not the rest of the hard working folks there at DL. Too bad the other employees couldn't put pressue on the pilots right back at them to get them to back off. Maybe drop a note in their next paychecks that say:

NOTICE ALL DELTA EMPLOYEES: Be aware that the pilots will be soon screwing you out of a job.

BTW, informational pickets are just about as stupid as actual pickets. They drive the same point, the same result, just without harassing the customers. Honestly, I hope it doesn't come to that point because if a DL pilot decided to harass me for flying Delta while they're striking, I'd give them a peice of my opinion.  fight  Strikes are so freakin stupid... may as well parade around with a sign that says "I'm having a temper fit because I'm not getting my way and management is."

I have a slighted opinion on this, as many has seen. My dad worked for years under a union and I can't even begin to count how many times his union or other unions screwed our family to the point where we wondered sometimes how we were going to eat that night. And I say other unions, because if there was a tiff with one union, my father's end of the job couldn't finish because they would have to wait for them to do the job. Then he would go into layoff until the job got back underway. And there have been a few times were the job never recovered from the strike. Here locally the Mirant power plant is a prime example. It's still sitting there half finished because of the strike that occured with one of the electrical outfits. The other contractors financially ran out of cash and the project buckled. Granted, the two industries are different, but unions alike are the same. My dad stepped up to the plate every day for my family no matter what he brought home for pay. He's taken numerous paycuts over the year, but the bottom line was he worked his job and accepted his pay. He knew if at any time he didn't like the pay, he could go somewhere else. At times, that's exactly what he did. Worked in SLC for a few years, worked in Montana for a few years. I just don't see where it's beneficial for any of the DL employees, especially the pilots, and the company. Sure, the management will still get their cut... but you know what? They have their thumb on the button. You can't change that unless you're a stock share holder and even at that it's near to impossible.

Please anyone, don't take my opinion wrong, it's slighted a bit... good for you DL pilots. Fight for what's right and take a stand. You're just doing it at a bad bad time for yourselves and the company. Structure a plan and calculate your hit.. then leverage the company when they have no other choice but to honor your requests/demands. But, that's me. And what do I know?  Confused
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 47):
not true. Tell me, who took a pay cut prior to the pilots and how much was it? Do the research and get back to me.

Check with all the non union Delta employees who had no choice but to take the forced on them pay cuts.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
bucky707
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 51):
Check with all the non union Delta employees who had no choice but to take the forced on them pay cuts.

yep, they did. But their first pay cut was one month after the pilots.


I hope you have another source though. Don't take my word for it, and don't take the word of any other employee. Do the research. Find out when the employees took pay cuts.

The non pilot employees did have some work rule changes before the pilots had a deal, but there were no pay cuts until after the first pilot deal.

Now, with the most recent pay cut for the pilots, the non pilot employees did take a pay cut before the pilots, by a month or two.

But again, don't listen to me. Do the research. I stand by what I post and if you can find actual evidence I am wrong, I challenge you to post it.

[Edited 2006-02-18 21:10:47]
 
deltamd88
Posts: 43
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:19 am

Instead of cutting pay why dont they look to other things, for example their rather high number of CRJ's, the new ACY-ATL route is operating on a CRJ, why cant they dump them and operate a/c with lower costs? Comair's CRJ's must impact DL's bottom line, I dont know how much the contracted carriers impact it though. I know it will cost them to dump the CRJ's and replace them, but in the long run this should help, although its not an immediate savings like cutting salaries. Fuel costs account for most of their expenses, this would be one way of reducing that portion of their expenses. Also, DL is a very loyal Boeing customer, what are the chances of Boeing injecting some cash into DL....or even Airbus, since they seem to be loosing ground to Boeing now, having the third largest airline in the US with an all Airbus fleet would certinaly help them out.
 
2H4
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:51 am




Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 41):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 40):
Does he know something we don't know?

don't know what you mean. But, for United the pay rate is the same for a 320 or 737, so I posted it that way.

Oh, I was just referring to the 737 part of "United 320/737", and imagining a 737 in United service.  Wink




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
this is another turn of the proverbial knife in the pilot's backs

You are speaking as if pilots enjoy moral superiority. Do they?

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 2):
This isn't management anymore, this is a dictatorship.

Look up capitalism in the dictionary.

Look, Delta pilots live on Pluto when it comes to labor economics. Why would they understand reality when they have enjoyed an isolated money-filled cocoon for decades? A Delta pilot is the last person I would ask for an assessment of the labor market of the USA, or on effective corporate structure for that matter. Why would they be experts on these matters? They are speaking beyond their competencies.

They know how to fly jets, and on that topic I would defer to them. However, in labor economics, I would encourage them to shut up because they sound like idiots. The idea that DL/NW pilots are victims is insulting to me and should be to most Americans.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
supa7E7
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 31):
I do have a problem with top management getting paid to leave the company in any manner other than retirement. I imagine most of DL's pilots (And a lot of other workers) as well as a lot of NW employees feel pretty close to the same way.

That's very interesting. You should tell your lawyers to amend the contracts of the executives you employ in your company. Oh, what's that? You don't own any companies? Maybe you should be quiet about it then.

Do you respect property rights or not? Do you think shareholders have the right to set executive pay or not?

Corruption is one thing. Enron was ugly and people will be jailed. But severance is legit, it's legal and it happens because the company owners wish it so. This is basic property rights. Either you believe the workers own the company (like Leon Trotsky) or you believe in private property. Which is it?
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 46):
Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 22):
After all the nearly 50% pay cut, it's probably more benificial to look elswhere, and tell management to enjoy their million$.

What a convenient argument to take the spotlight off of what is the real truth: the fate of the company rests on the pilots. Stop pointing fingers everywhere else, and make a decision.

Um, That IS the real truth! Sorry you did'nt make a #1 salary in the industry like the pilots did, but is that their fault? They saw excellent pay, got hired , did their job, gave up nearly half of it to management, and you want to blame them? Had you been offered $215 an hour to do what you do, would you say, "sorry, I can't take that much money, I'll go work for Air Tran". These guys were the envy of all the pilot groups, were payed well, and performed well. They gave up close to half of that for the airline, and now you want to continue pointing the finger at them? Don't think for one second that more money isn't gonna be asked of you either. Pilots are being dealt with ruthlessly, and they're fighting back ruthlessly. Your management is crooked! When the dust settles, you can blame everyone but them, but the fact is POOR MANAGEMENT will kill DL, not pilots.

[Edited 2006-02-19 02:01:13]

[Edited 2006-02-19 02:02:49]
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Your management is crooked! When the dust settles, you can blame everyone but them, but the fact is POOR MANAGEMENT will kill DL, not pilots.

One of the things this fundimentally ignores is the fact that the current management can only work with what is in place. If they got together, had a few hundred million seed capital and were told "build a brand new airline out of SLC, ATL, JFK and CVG) I think the current state of DL would be very different.

Basically they've got no room to move... therefore they can only work with 'poor' movements and given that I see them as trying very hard by doing things such as those that came out of the song saga. The issue here really is margins. They don't have much to work with at all.

One of the fundimental advantages an new operation has it that they can place competitive arrangments in place from day 1. Everybody enjoys a bonus or a pay rise. If you start a worker on a very low wage, and give them a 'bonus' they weren't expecting they're going to be happy and positive. If you start them on a high wage, NOBODY is thrilled about loosing money and poor moral sets in. The problem isn't the DL management. It is the fact that Airtran pilots, or UA pilots or whoever else is willing to perform that same work at cheaper rates.

I say, if you want the current rates sustainable and the industry profitable, you need to pull about 300 mainline jets out of the entire USA airline industry, that ARE NOT replaced. It is a big ask and the current bankruptcy laws are really proving a barrier, and maintaining some weird State of 'market failure'.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 56):
Either you believe the workers own the company (like Leon Trotsky) or you believe in private property. Which is it?

You do realise most of the people here don't have a clue who trotsky is?
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 58):
I say, if you want the current rates sustainable and the industry profitable, you need to pull about 300 mainline jets out of the entire USA airline industry, that ARE NOT replaced. It is a big ask and the current bankruptcy laws are really proving a barrier, and maintaining some weird State of 'market failure'

I completely agree with you on this. Unfortunately, either ticket prices need to rise, or a major airline needs to fall.
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
positiverate
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Sorry you did'nt make a #1 salary in the industry like the pilots did

I don't work for an airline.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Had you been offered $215 an hour to do what you do, would you say, "sorry, I can't take that much money, I'll go work for Air Tran".

I would have said thank you, then had half the sense to see where the industry was going post 9/11 and, when my company came to me with a wage concession offer, realized that it was in the best interest of everyone around to make an agreement in a timely fashion.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Don't think for one second that more money isn't gonna be asked of you either.

I don't work for an airline, so I don't think that's going to happen.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Your management is crooked!

See above. But while you're making blanket accusations, why don't you name some specifics? What has management done that is crooked, and which specific managers did it?

[Edited 2006-02-19 04:31:51]
 
flyingdoc
Posts: 72
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 pm

As a frequent, loyal DL flyer over several years, this has been very sad for all concerned. I don't really take a side other than I hope that the company survives. I admit that I have some financial interest as I have lots of Skymiles, but if they failed, I fly enough each year that it wouldn't take too long on another carrier to build up a good balance and to make elite status.

As an interested bystander, I must say that DL management over the past several years has made several decisions that I believe are big mistakes. Petitioning the court for these severance packages is another in this series of mistakes. Management should set the example. There are many good examples of corporate leaders who set the example of making personal sacrifice when the company was in trouble (Lee Iacocca at Chrysler, for example worked for $1/year when Chrysler was in serious trouble).
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 60):
But while you're making blanket accusations, why don't you name some specifics? What has management done that is crooked, and which specific managers did it?

If you don't see a multi-million dollar severance package, while all other groups are sacrificing pay, and time as "crooked", then I don't know what else to say. Smart management (CO for instance) will start with cuts from the top, that trickle down to the employees whos paycheck is vital. So what DL employees are thinking while they continue to give up pay is; A portion of MY MONEY is going to ensure that if the airline is liquidated, the management won't need to worry about paying THEIR bills. They're millionaires coming to the airline, and millionaires when they leave. That's a real incentive for them to roll up their sleeves and get in the trenches with their employees huh? I fail to see any justification for any CEO to do that to their company. Unfortunately, airline CEO's just jump from one airline to the other. It's not as easy for the employees.......
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 60):
Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Don't think for one second that more money isn't gonna be asked of you either.

I don't work for an airline, so I don't think that's going to happen

Then I completely understand why your view is such!
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
777Purser
Posts: 215
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:10 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 6):
Everyone has had to suffer from the BS of upstairs, but we keep working, partly because we don't have a union to back us

That is your own fault for not wanting one... Delta workers voted against getting unionizes over and over as They were comfortable like a fat cat sittiing and happily purring on management's lap like a fat cat...well now you are all gong to be their b>>tch. Good for the pilots to confront management with ther BS and try to keep the pilot career a career. I wonder what the FA's are going to do...
 
MX757
Posts: 495
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting Piercey (Reply 43):
(now please don't close the CLE hub)


CLE is not going anywhere anytime soon. CO signed a 10 year lease with CLE airport authority for terminal and hanger use and landing rights.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 64):
That is your own fault for not wanting one... Delta workers voted against getting unionizes over and over as They were comfortable like a fat cat sittiing and happily purring on management's lap like a fat cat...well now you are all gong to be their b>>tch.

While that comment upsets me, I have to acknowlege that your statement is absolutely correct. DL pilots had great pay, and work rules- so why get ALPA involved, when things are great? DL thought that 2% of their check going to ALPA was a waste. Especially when their relationship with management was going so well. That's biting them in the arse right now. While I'm not a big fan of ALPA, when it comes to protecting a contract, they typically do a fine job.

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 64):
Good for the pilots to confront management with their BS and try to keep the pilot career a career. I wonder what the FA's are going to do...

That's the primary issue. DL maintained much respect for their crews for a long time. It's a sad commentary. Whenever ther'es a negociation breakdown the press immediately attacks the pilots, making look like spoiled brats. But people still believe that pilots are bringing million$ of dollars, which could'ent be further from the truth. Of all airline positions, I don't believe any group has taken more paycuts than pilots. A few years back, I was involved in a "informational picket" while with a regional airline. We were trying to hammer out a new contract with management. I carried a sign that read "Do you think we should only get $17 an hour to fly YOUR familly?" A man approached and said, "You make $17 an hour, and you're complaining?" I responded with "I spent four years in college, and another two in flight school- Do you think that's fair?" He said "my son works 40 hours a week, and only makes $9 an hour!" I said "he's making more than I am!" People don't realise that we're payed for flight time ONLY. We only work 80 hours a month! When I joined the majors the pay was better, but now, there's more, and more pay cuts. And soon our proffesion begins being incredibly un-lucrative. 5 years ago, if you'd ask me what airline took care of their pilots the best, hands down I'd say DL. Making a "career" flying aircraft in today's world requires staying on your toes, keeping a fresh resume handy, and be ready to move when the $h*t hits the fan. I'm on my 4th airline now! I've moved three times in 5 years, and realise I may have to again. The "glamour" has left the building..... But you're absolutely right- DL pilots have nobaody but themselves to blame for not retaining union protection. The oportunity was there....

[Edited 2006-02-19 07:19:22]

[Edited 2006-02-19 07:30:02]
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
chgoflyer
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:16 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:34 pm

Maybe if the picket long enough they can just close it. Perhaps their union heads could study how the IAM killed Eastern so they get it just right. Im not in the airline industry and have not had a raise since 9/11 yet all I do is pay more for lousy service on U.S. airlines.... where can I set up a picket line? I just flew ord/atl/lir and the dinosaur "Glen Campell" FA bitched about the current state of his company to the entire first class cabin should have been run out on a rail.
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
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mariner
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:38 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 56):
Do you think shareholders have the right to set executive pay or not?

In the case of Delta, the shareholders have very few - if any - rights.

The company is owned by the creditors.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
Revelation
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 56):
Corruption is one thing. Enron was ugly and people will be jailed. But severance is legit, it's legal and it happens because the company owners wish it so. This is basic property rights.

Just because something is "legit" doesn't mean it is fair or right.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 56):
Either you believe the workers own the company (like Leon Trotsky) or you believe in private property. Which is it?

You live in a very binary world, don't you, Supa? In any case, the workers "own" their labor, which they can refuse to provide when the terms of the employment are changed unilaterally. You are following the plot, aren't you, Supa?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 50):
NOTICE ALL DELTA EMPLOYEES: Be aware that the pilots will be soon screwing you out of a job.

ACS, TechOPs, FA's, DTechnology, DGS, Contract companies: Aramark, LFS, Gate Gourmet, Aviation Safeguards, Gate Safe. This is an extensive but partial list of job-less people after the pilots put Delta under. We all know we work for an airline who really dosn't care about the employees, and we all have to make sacrifices. Non of us in ACS are unionized but we all took cuts like the pilots and our cuts were not off no six-fugure salary. we were making like 15 or 20 an hour and got cut to 10 or 11 talk about a life- style change. Managers at McDonalds make what airline emps make. I feel that you job is payed by its importance so what DL is telling us is that we are useless.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2639
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 69):
You live in a very binary world, don't you, Supa? In any case, the workers "own" their labor, which they can refuse to provide when the terms of the employment are changed unilaterally. You are following the plot, aren't you, Supa?

It isn't as simple as that because if that were the case, then, the could also as easily be replaced.... and we all know what kinda uproar would happen if that was even attempted, let along getting into the legalities.
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 37):
But if you knock the feet from under the company when it's hurting worst, they'll walk out of the board room with their stash and leave you hanging.

If you knock the feet out from under the employees like they're doing now, you have noone motivated enough to go work for you. We're not concerned with keeping management comfortable and happy at this point, it should be the other way around.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 42):
I can here the fat lady singing. Hurry up and shut her down.

Nice ignorant post you have there...congratulations, you're the 1,000,000th person this week to say it.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 46):
Like everything else in business, this is a negotiation.

Yes, all except for the part where management negotiates- right now, it's a kangaroo court. Jerry wants his money now, plain and simple- he's ruthless and heartless businessman, he may have everyone else fooled with his 'people skills', but he hasn't fooled the pilots. His "generous" offer of dropping his monetary requirement by 10 million was so...'cooperative'. Him and Steenland probably meet up every Friday night to discuss how to fuck their respective labor groups the best.

Quoting Ptharris (Reply 50):
Structure a plan and calculate your hit.. then leverage the company when they have no other choice but to honor your requests/demands.

This isn't about making a 'hit' or any sucker punches, it's about warding off further attack...this is defense at this point. When you're negotiating for a higher-paying contract, then you make your 'hits'.

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 55):
You are speaking as if pilots enjoy moral superiority. Do they?....Look, Delta pilots live on Pluto when it comes to labor economics.[/

They don't, but they deserve the right to what they earn. You try having your check sliced in half by a grinning, golden parachuted management. And you, sir, live further out than Pluto when it comes to labor economics.

I'd like to see where this 'required' 325 mil figgure came from. Like Bucky has well pointed out, the other stipulations they want add up to far more, in the neighborhood of 500-600 million. Jerry the baboon won't stop until he gets it though, or someone stops him.
DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting 777PURSER (Reply 64):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 6):
Everyone has had to suffer from the BS of upstairs, but we keep working, partly because we don't have a union to back us

That is your own fault for not wanting one... Delta workers voted against getting unionizes over and over as They were comfortable like a fat cat sittiing and happily purring on management's lap like a fat cat...well now you are all gong to be their b>>tch. Good for the pilots to confront management with ther BS and try to keep the pilot career a career. I wonder what the FA's are going to do...

Please Let me know when this vote occured
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
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ptharris
Posts: 265
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RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 72):
We're not concerned with keeping management comfortable and happy at this point, it should be the other way around.

Better to make them sit and squirm while the barn burns? Yeah, you work on that and let us all know how that works out in the long run. Eastern did the same, did it work well for them?  scratchchin 

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 72):
This isn't about making a 'hit' or any sucker punches, it's about warding off further attack...this is defense at this point. When you're negotiating for a higher-paying contract, then you make your 'hits'.

So, I'm curious.... if you've been "attacked" by Delta, why still work for them? I'm assuming you do work for DL, correct? If so, then why continue to put yourself through the "attacks"?
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving isn't for you.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 63):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 60):
Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 57):
Don't think for one second that more money isn't gonna be asked of you either.

I don't work for an airline, so I don't think that's going to happen

Then I completely understand why your view is such!

Exactly: I look at it from an objective and practical standpoint.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 62):
Smart management (CO for instance) will start with cuts from the top, that trickle down to the employees whos paycheck is vital.

Educate me: which managers, from the Directors position on up, have taken pay raises? Have any taken pay cuts?

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 62):
They're millionaires coming to the airline, and millionaires when they leave. That's a real incentive for them to roll up their sleeves and get in the trenches with their employees huh?

Aha, so now you're resorting to the "class warfare" approach. I would venture that folks at the Director's position, like for example in flight ops or government affairs or marketing are hardly millionaires "coming to the airline and millionaires when they leave". You can't fault someone for their station in life.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3800
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:06 am

If all of you DL pilots are so pissed off, then just strike already. Yes, you're putting 50,000 or so others out of a job right away, but so what, you're going through hell right now and they all deserve it. How dare the company only want to pay you $130/hr to fly. Who the hell do they think they are.

I say STRIKE, sink the fucking titanic already and don't worry about the others. At least all this drama will be over and I can find another carrier to give my loyalty to.

(If anyone thinks the above is serious, get a life.)
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
You can't fault someone for their station in life

Funny, that seems to be your stance on pilots. Do you really believe that they should give up more, just because they're payed well from day 1?

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
Educate me: which managers, from the Directors position on up, have taken pay raises? Have any taken pay cuts?

Have they matched employees deductions? NO! I consider the "Golden Parachute" a damn fine raise. In reality, they could take $1,000,000 out of their salary, and STILL MAKE MONEY when the airline goes under. Can you say that for the employees? NO! If you're gonna badmouth the employees- particularly the pilots, for saying enough is enough, you along with the rest of the public that has no idea how comfortable management is sitting right now. And if you think for a second (like management) that the pilots will eventually "give in", I can tell you they're not! And I'm more than proud of their stance. Management is NOT sharing the burden of their floundering airline with the employees. I don't care how much they make while they're running an airline, but when the $hit hits the fan, they better feel the pain with everyone else. Don't forget who's to blame for all this. If you can blame the pilots for DL's trouble, I'd be more than happy to hear it. As an outsider, you probably believe that DL pilots would do anything to keep this failing airline going. Well, you're wrong. No pilot in any US airline, would have put up with a second pay cut without a major fight, and certainly no pilot would stand and grin while DL upper-echelon petitions for severance! Both of my uncles love to have an employer next year, but if management is not willing to match deductions (which I believe is criminal), they are more than happy to spit on the ground that DL once stood. If DL survives, it will start with management joining the fight, not throwing gas on the fire. As far as naming names, well their petition for severance includes everyone from upper management to board members- not just one man. 90% of A-Net members have either had experience working for an airline, or are trully intelligent airline fans. Can you discount all of their feelings on this issue as well? The fact that you've flown on DL, or invest in DL does not give you the right to bad-mouth their views as incorrect. They know where the fault rests, and I encourage you to open your mind and injest the opinions of the experienced, and not base your stance on a biast media.

[Edited 2006-02-19 21:25:41]
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 58):
I say, if you want the current rates sustainable and the industry profitable, you need to pull about 300 mainline jets out of the entire USA airline industry, that ARE NOT replaced. It is a big ask and the current bankruptcy laws are really proving a barrier, and maintaining some weird State of 'market failure'.

Actually, you need to remove a lot of RJs in Delta's case. That plus a fare structure based on a "Cost plus" system, where the cheapest fare will still pay for the cost to move that seat through the air and a little extra to make the company money, and a lot of airlines would be doing much better. Seems to work for oil companies, after all.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 68):
In the case of Delta, the shareholders have very few - if any - rights.

The company is owned by the creditors.

Thank you Mariner, for pointing out that one point. Then, in the case of companies NOT owned by creditors, most average stock holders put their power of running the company in the hands of a proxy. Simpler for them, yes, but it allowes a much smaller group of people to have control of major corporations. As long as these few people are good at running said type of corporation, that works fine... but it's still, in many cases, not the actual shareholder deciding how much the Executives get paid and whether or not they get severance packages.

And as someone above said, legal doesn't always equal fair or even ethical.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 77):
Quoting Positiverate (Reply 75):
You can't fault someone for their station in life

Funny, that seems to be your stance on pilots. Do you really believe that they should give up more, just because they're payed well from day 1?

See, this is where your argument goes right off the rails. I don't fault the pilots for anything, except for not accepting how markets work. There is a market for their services, which has been set at a level below what they are paid now. At one point the market set their wages where they are now and in some cases above where they are now. There is also a market for the services of corporate leaders, from the Director of Inflight Services for example right on up to the CEO (whom I believe is making $250 K annually, but someone may have more info on that then I do), which includes severance packages. Now, it's a crappy deal to be sure, but unfortunately they have one or two options: wage concessions to get back in sync where the market is, or says crew it, pay us more then our market value, and hope for the best. It's not ALL on the pilots; there have been the effects of 9/11, insane fuel costs, security costs, etc that have thrown the airline industry into turmoil. However, it is what it is.


Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 77):
And if you think for a second (like management) that the pilots will eventually "give in", I can tell you they're not! And I'm more than proud of their stance.

That's certainly their right, and boy will they be proud that they stuck to their guns when the airline burns to the ground and they are standing on its ashes.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 77):
Don't forget who's to blame for all this.

Who is to blame? You keep pointing blame at everyone else.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 77):
The fact that you've flown on DL, or invest in DL does not give you the right to bad-mouth their views as incorrect. They know where the fault rests, and I encourage you to open your mind and injest the opinions of the experienced, and not base your stance on a biast media.

I'm not sure what a "biast media" is (maybe you mean "biased"?), but as someone who put himself through law school while working for an airline (I threw bags on the ramp for 4 years going to school at night), and whose wife works for an airline, and whose parents both work for an airline, I feel pretty comfortable that I have a right to say what I want to say on this issue. That and the first amendment. I don't know where you get the right to attack me for having my views, nor tell me what I can and cannot say just because you don't agree with me. Pretty ballsy of you, considering you have never met me, and don't know me.
 
AirlineAV8tr
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 79):
I don't fault the pilots for anything, except for not accepting how markets work. There is a market for their services, which has been set at a level below what they are paid now

So the fact that they have been working for 10 years on an income that has afforded them luxuries, means that they're the ones to target? Management, and HR set these pay scales, not the pilots. Giving back almost half is about 40% more than I would've ever considered in a negotiation, and is MUCH higher than any other group has ever "donated" in any airline, and in any country.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 79):
You keep pointing blame at everyone else.

By "everyone", I assume you mean management. So yes, I blame them. They entered an area that few can ever get out of, and that's when they get selfish, and refuse to play the game that they themselves have set forth for their employees to follow. Honestly, had the 'brainiacs' in corporate just said, "I know we've asked a lot of you, so we're going to reduce our salary by a percentage until we all pull through this together", the pilots would not be threatening a strike, the stock would not have dropped through the bottom, morale would be higher, and passengers would buy tickets. But they literally did the opposite, and tried to secure cash for themselves.b

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 79):
I feel pretty comfortable that I have a right to say what I want to say on this issue. That and the first amendment. I don't know where you get the right to attack me for having my views, nor tell me what I can and cannot say just because you don't agree with me. Pretty ballsy of you, considering you have never met me, and don't know me.

You're absolutely correct! You have every right to post your views, and I have every right to challenge those views. And if you recall, I was not the one on the attack- you attacked a pilot group that didn't deserve additional poor treatment. I have enjoyed our debate, as it's nice to hear alternative views at times. I will never attack you personally, so I don't know where you get that. But if you're referring to me challenging your statements, then I feel that these debates are healthy. My wife is also a lawyer, and I can't recall her ever getting so worked up over a debate- especially on a web forum. Being a pilot, and having familly flying for DL, I may have more of an emotional attachment to this issue, but I never tried to attack you, or anybody else regarding this forum topic. And as far as the pilots being upset about DL's demise, it won't happen. This is a matter of principle, and unless management pulls their rediculous request for a "parting gift", the pilots have no reason to give anything else. You may believe that this is in the pilots hands, when in reality the ball's in management's court to either keep the airline alive, or walk away with the money that pilots, and other workgroups have already given to keep the airline alive as long as it has been.

[Edited 2006-02-20 03:54:11]

[Edited 2006-02-20 04:16:46]
If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Delta Pilots Picket At Atlanta Terminal

Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
Management, and HR set these pay scales, not the pilots.

Please. The RLA process is, in this day and age, weighted towards labor. It's a "strike-threat system" that allows labor to effectively put a gun to the heads of management while negotiating. It's no one's fault; when it was written the RLA was sorely needed. But it's time they came under the NRLA like everyone else. Under the NLRA, 74 percent of contracts are settled before or within one month after the contract expiration date. In contrast only 21 percent of airline contracts are settled before or within a month following their amendable date. There's a reason for that.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
and is MUCH higher than any other group has ever "donated" in any airline, and in any country.

Of course. When your pay rates are that much more then everyone else (remember, "United +1!"), it takes that much more in cuts to come in line with the rest of the industry. It's simple math.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
you attacked a pilot group that didn't deserve additional poor treatment.

I didn't "attack" anyone. I disagree with their tactics and views. That doesn't constitue an "attack".

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
My wife is also a lawyer, and I can't recall her ever getting so worked up over a debate- especially on a web forum.

I am hardly worked up. A lot is lost in translation over the web. You don't get a sense of tone.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
Being a pilot, and having familly flying for DL, I may have more of an emotional attachment to this issue,

I have family and friends that work at DL as well. I have an equal emotional attachment.

Quoting AirlineAV8tr (Reply 80):
This is a matter of principle, and unless management pulls their rediculous request for a "parting gift", the pilots have no reason to give anything else. You may believe that this is in the pilots hands, when in reality the ball's in management's court to either keep the airline alive, or walk away with the money that pilots, and other workgroups have already given to keep the airline alive as long as it has been.

I had an interesting conversation on the Shuttle today with a deadheading pilot. He was sitting acorss the aisle from me and we struck up a conversation weh he asked if I was enjoying the book I was reading (1776 by David McCullough; I highly recommend it). Anyway, the conversation worked it's way over to what was going on at the company, and I asked if the pilots had collectively bargained a "severance package" in their last contract. He told me that if the company went under, the pilots were entitled to 3 months "furlough pay". So, if the company ceases operation, and the pilots lose their jobs, then they will receive 3 months pay. Pay for losing their job. Sort of sounds like a severance package to me.

Which leads me back to my statement from an earlier post. There are Directors (and by Directors I don't mean on the Board, but rather employees who are in management that are above a Manager and below a VP) who are getting this severance package. Some make less then most pilots do. Are they not entitled to some kind of severance pay, in the same way that the pilot group is? Or is it because you don't respect their job, or them as people, that you object to the package.

[Edited 2006-02-22 05:52:30]

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