steeler83
Posts: 7660
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:08 am

quoting SonOFACaptain (reply42) "I think WN has a grudge against US"

Pittsburgh used to be the headquarters for US Airways before they moved to Arlington, VA. I think it was also the reason why there were only 5 or 6 airlines serving the airport to begin with... Operating just about every single route out of PIT essentially kept everyone else at bay... They they moved out and de-hubbed PIT, and now thanks to that, we have WN, Hooters, and USA3000, with all 3 starting service or agreeing to start service almost simultaneously...

Even after the merger with HP, it seems as though US still is downsizing PIT, with the possible elimination of the PIT-MIA route. (They eliminated PIT-SFO, but apparently they realized that that was rather foolish I suppose.) I wonder if anyone else would have an interest of establishing PIT as a hub. On an Airtran thread, someone mentioned that PIT would be a possible candidate for a second hub. Someone said that FL could use a second hub/focus city in the Northeast or Midwest, and PIT would be perfect for that... But, what do I know. That's just wishfull thinking. I do have to say, I do not approve the way US handled bankruptcy by shutting down their biggest hub. That was an unnecessary shot in the gut to PIT
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2205
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:23 am

The most interesting thing I get from this Wright stuff: DFW is a very weak airport and the Dallas Economy is quite fragile.

I always thought Texas things were big and strong. DFW is big, but not so strong that a tiny little airport like DAL would upset the way the economy works, cause massive layoffs, and the demise of the biggest airline in the world. Wow!

If I were thinking of moving my company to D-FW area...I would think again. Way too much of a gamble with such a fragile economy, airport and airline.
 
mtnwest1979
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:23 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:25 am

Well, a lot would depend on where the good tax breaks , business laws, etc, and other incentives may be at.
I think very little would deal with flight activity at the airport. Though, I doubt it would be LBB or something like that.
But I believe that what may be best is to disperse certain aspects of the HQ regime throughout the nation and not just in one centralized place. This way they may actually see things the way they are, not just what they think they are in the system.
Just my $.02
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 54):
we have WN, Hooters, and USA3000, with all 3 starting service or agreeing to start service almost simultaneously...

Umm.... Hooters and USA3k (along with Airtran and FlyI) were there lonnnnnng before WN ever agreed to anything at PIT.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 54):
On an Airtran thread, someone mentioned that PIT would be a possible candidate for a second hub. Someone said that FL could use a second hub/focus city in the Northeast or Midwest, and PIT would be perfect for that...

I mentioned that, it was actually in an IND thread I believe. I could see PIT over IND (unless NW were to croak) but I could also see DAY for Airtran. DAY would have no other legitimate LCC competiton, PIT has WN, and if Airtran were to suddenly build PIT into a focus city you'd suddenly see WN build PIT to their promised levels in no time flat.
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 11):
Southwest president Colleen Barrett said in October that if the carrier is unable to lift the Wright restrictions at Love Field, "we might have to begin casting about for a place that's more efficient to operate."

Dallas "wouldn't even make the first cut" if Southwest were to pick a new headquarters city today, Southwest chief executive Gary Kelly said last year.

Sure as hell sounds like WN is hinting that if they can't get their way in Dallas they will leave. Like I said more veiled threats from WN.

Phoenix Courting WN is news, Barrett's statement is from October, Kelly's is from last year, it's old news.

Either way good or bad, old or new, imagine what you'd be saying a year from now IF WN suddenly packed up and moved to PHX or LAS! Then you'd be claiming they "snuck" out of town or something without giving Dallas the opportunity to really work out a deal. There's no appeasing a narrow mind.


SoCal
 
Okie
Posts: 4042
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:29 am

Florida, Texas, Nevada, Alaska, South Dakota, Washington, Wyoming has no State income tax.

link to state income taxes
http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

I do not think WN executives would be interested in taking a 5% pay-cut for state income taxes to move to PHX but will be more than willing to use the leverage for DAL on many levels.

If WN decides to move HQ, I would think LAS would be first on the list as a large operation and no state taxes.

Thats why most every oil company moved to Houston, why FL is in Florida, and why CO, AA and WN are HQ'ed in Texas and many Corporations are moving HQ's to low tax states because the executives take it in the shorts on state taxes.

Okie
 
L1329II
Posts: 285
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:52 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:33 am

How about Kansas City?  Big grin

Seriously though MCI is one of the largest airports in the US - in terms land - and there is plenty of space to expand. Plenty of room for mx and other FA training. Real estate is cheap here and we have 4 seasons... WN has a pretty good presence here already and they succeeded in chasing off Vanguard. The biggest issue here is the terminal setup and connecting flights.

Just thought I would chime in.
"By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?"
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 59):
many Corporations are moving HQ's to low tax states because the executives take it in the shorts on state taxes

Also, no state income tax on corp. profits in the above states mentioned = good for stockholders, more profit.
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 59):
I do not think WN executives would be interested in taking a 5% pay-cut for state income taxes to move to PHX but will be more than willing to use the leverage for DAL on many levels.

If WN decides to move HQ, I would think LAS would be first on the list as a large operation and no state taxes.

And then there's that, taxes, good point Okie. Although I would be willing to bet WN would get tax concessions from Arizona for 20 years to move there, reality would set in on the 21st year, so then I also agree LAS would be the best choice due in part in access to the rest of the system from LAS.


SoCal
 
ckfred
Posts: 5159
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting LEO777 (Reply 25):
UA is headquarted in Elk Grove Village outside of Chicago, by the way has anyone notified King Daley, maybe Chicago will start courting Southwest, and Chicago will beat the hell out of Phoenix and Denver any time.

Considering how hard Chicago pushed to get Boeing's HQ, beating out Dallas and Denver, my guess is that once this news reaches City Hall in Chicago, a plan to move HQ to Chicago, either in the Loop or near MDW will be put together.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 62):
Although I would be willing to bet WN would get tax concessions from Arizona for 20 years to move there, reality would set in on the 21st year,

They wouldn't get personal income tax concessions for the CEO/brass though. You'd be looking at a MAJOR lawsuit if that happened.
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 64):
They wouldn't get personal income tax concessions for the CEO/brass though. You'd be looking at a MAJOR lawsuit if that happened.

Of course they wouldn't, I'm talking about CORPORATE concessions.
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 3:56 am

I think you're all forgetting that WN has absolutely no intention of moving its HQ. They accepted the meeting merely as a courtesy.
Dear moderators: No.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 65):

Of course they wouldn't, I'm talking about CORPORATE concessions.

Sorry, I meant to quote Okie not you.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 66):
think you're all forgetting that WN has absolutely no intention of moving its HQ. They accepted the meeting merely as a courtesy.

And you know this how? In the business world you don't have the time to "accept meetings merely as a courtesy" when its someting that you think is total BS, especially when you're running as large and complex a corporation as SWA.
 
Okie
Posts: 4042
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 66):
I think you're all forgetting that WN has absolutely no intention of moving its HQ

 checkmark 

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 66):
They accepted the meeting merely as a courtesy.

 dollarsign 
Cough Cough Bovine Manure.

This is leverage on many levels whether it be Wright Amendment, Taxes on Capital Expenditures, future landing fees, you name it.

A two hour meeting/presentation, and a press release gets good mileage for WN. Just look at the response. WN management did not fall off the truck last night.

Okie
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 68):

A two hour meeting/presentation, and a press release gets good mileage for WN. Just look at the response. WN management did not fall off the truck last night.

True, I recall reading where once when WN was in negotiations with Boeing over a future purchase, old Herb dropped an Airbus pen on the ground by "accident" for which a Boeing employee picked up and handed back.

Just keeping them on their toes.
 
scoljet
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:50 am

Ideally the WA would get crumpled up and people who live in small to medium markets could start benefiting from the "SWA effect". Dallas is perfect for WN and I believe this is saber rattling to turn up the heat regarding the WA.
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 50):
How would you know? Have you ever lived or been to Phoenix? I doubt it. Believe me, it is like paradise here compared to where you live. We live outdoors all year long and there's so much to do here.

Yep! been there four or five times, especially enjoyed all the time i spent at the Library on Mill Ave in Tempe. The best memory though is still when I was on a 737 for touch and goes at Williams Gateway.

In any case, I wasn't really talking shit about Phoenix, it's just not my cup of tea. It's a very nice city and I enjoyed my time there, but when I was there in October I was hot the whole time I was there (and that is just not proper october weather for me!). Not that that doesn't sound bad right now (seeing as it was windy as ...a sonofagun... last night here in Iowa City and 35 degrees or so) but I likes my midwest winters nonetheless.

[Edited 2006-02-25 21:12:52]
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:56 am

QuotingWe're Nuts (Reply 28)

PHX does need an FA training school, though. The DAL school is backed up almost a year I hear

The Love Field Master Plan mentions Southwest having a training facility in the North Concourse. Is that the FA training facility or is that for other employees?

Also, something I'd really love to know, but can ever get a definite answer on is this:

Back around 5 years ago when the Love Field Master Plan was being drawn up, they did an inventory of the space and gave sqare footage, who it was leased to, lease expiration dates, etc. I remember reading that WN's leases on the West Concourse, where they have their operating gates, and the North Concourse, where they have their training facilities were due to expire December 16, 2006.

Does anyone know if that is still the current situation or has WN signed new leases since then?

Also, WN was supposed to build a new cargo facility at Love Field I believe over where the now-demolished East Concourse gates were and last I heard (over a year ago) it was supposed to open this summer.. What's the status on that project?

LoneStarMike

 
scoljet
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:57 am

As a side note, WN approached Wichita KS, (ICT) about being a focus city years ago before the WA. At the time the city turned them down!! No wonder we cant get decent mainline service in or out of here!
 
steeler83
Posts: 7660
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:58 am

Tornado, you were right about USA3K and FlyI. They were there since the middle of 2004 (FlyI was anyway.) Airtran has been there for years, since 99 or 2000 i think. I didn't mention FlyI only because they folded last month. I was referring to an article in the Post-Gazette about airport traffic last year when they mentioned newer low-cost carriers serving the airport. Either the article was inaccurate or I got my wires crossed (I do mix things up sometimes...) It looks as tho that FL and WN might start a bit of a boxing match if FL wants to establish a small hub or focus city at PIT from what you said tho...
I suppose that DAY could be a hub as well, I believe they have more markets served there than PIT (PIT-ATL/FLL/MCO). At first I thought yins were talking about Youngstown or Ackron. (DAY is near CVG...) I'm not sure why I thought that... Although that also has more service...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2552
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 50):
Besides, we have 340 days of sunshine a year. Can you say that about any other city in North America? No, you can't.

I bet I can think of a few that are extremely close. LAS, TUS, ABQ, and ELP for starters.

As strange as it sounds, I think ABQ will make some sort of pitch for the headquarters. Obviously the fact that is a smaller station and city than PHX, LAS, HOU, and MDW is a major problem. However, Governor Richardson and Mayor Chavez are very ambitious (they recently tried to get the New Orleans Saints to move) and the state is becoming more agressive in attracting businesses, especially aviation related. Eclipse Aviation, Virgin Galactic, and the manufacturing facility for the Javelin fighter are the best examples.

Also, the state budget has a spare billion dollars all the polititians have been trying to spend. The state could not only offer tax breaks to WN, they could offer to build them a new HQ and training facilities.

Do I think WN is going to move to ABQ: No, no, no, no. But I think we will see a thread that New Mexico is trying.

I
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
Tornado82
Posts: 4662
Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 10:19 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 74):
I suppose that DAY could be a hub as well, I believe they have more markets served there than PIT (PIT-ATL/FLL/MCO).

They've got BWI service on FL over in DAY.
 
legend500
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:12 am

- Phoenix is too small a city in too small a state to compete, other Dallas-area cities, Houston and Chicago could be in the hunt.

- Only cities with strong economies would be able to attract SWA, which is a large reason they will stay in Dallas. Also look for Chicago, and Houston here as well.

- The loss of SWA would not affect the DFW metro area at all. It would, however be a disasterous PR move.

- SWA has sunk hundreds of millions into DAL recently. A move is therefore poppycock.

- Smaller cities in economically weaker states may be able to compete in the beginning, but will be swept aside by the breaks larger states (such as California, Texas, Florida and Illinois) can offer.

- It's all essentially BS. SWA has no intention of moving, they just need to rattle the pot a little. A bad idea, I'm already liking AA more.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 16):
The question for me is if WN is serious about moving, why not choose LAS?

Why not choose SLC? I think we have more flights than DAL, dont we?

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 17):
Where a airline is based doesn't necessarily mean its their largest station, for example FL is Orlando based but I'm sure ATL is a larger station for them.

Kinda like Skywest's biggest hub is SLC and their HQ is SGU?

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 46):
who wants to move to phoenix...it is way too hot!

I lived in PHX and found it quite nice there, except for mid-June to mid-September.

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 48):
I think Houston would be more likely. They already have a sizable operation at Hobby and I really can't see them moving the corporate HQ out of Texas. Houston is centrally located for their system wide operations

Houston is deep in the south of their route system, and why would they go head to head with CO, when their already head to head with AA?

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 48):
Your HQ location reflects your route system.

I guess somebody forgot to tell Skywest this...

Quoting Okie (Reply 68):
WN management did not fall off the truck last night.

Nope, they just jumped off a 737!  duck   goodvibes 
 
steeler83
Posts: 7660
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Scoljet (Reply 73):
As a side note, WN approached Wichita KS, (ICT) about being a focus city years ago before the WA. At the time the city turned them down!!

Wichita turned down WN? Are they mad???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18417
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:42 am

I see many posts in this thread that are angry that WN is meeting with Pheonix representatives. Why? Southwest is a business. Once upon a time AA moved their HQ... to Dallas, for economic and some say political reasons. Why not have WN move their HQ for economic and some would say political reasons.

The fact is that WN isn't getting much local support for the Wright appeal. Love or hate Wright, WN has a point here. Yes, Dallas must toe a line and AA is the bigger Gorrila in their backyard. Ok. Then WN needs to move to where they will be the big Gorrila.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 15):
Whats wrong with a veiled threat. You make it sound like its bad for WN to do that. I'm not exactly sure why it is. If WN really wants to get the Wright Ammendment repealed, they would be stupid not to use this and every other tactic in they can.

 checkmark  Its business. Every big company does this. I don't always like it, but I understand the practice.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 31):

I think if Houston made even a decent attempt to compete with PHX, LAS or MDW that they would stand a better chance of landing the headquarters. The cost of living is so much lower in Houston than those other cities and most people in Dallas have friends and family in Houston.



Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 33):
Believe you me there has been nothing slowing down in Las Vegas for the past 12 years.. and then some. What is not growing outwards, is growing upwards. Las Vegas has already overtaken Phoenix in size, and in prestige. Las Vegas, has even begun to cast a shadow on Southern California.



Quoting Planespotting (Reply 46):
Chicago would be a much better fit for SWA



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 2):
Don't be surprised if Denver tries to sneak in here. There are a lot of Hq moves that come down to competition between DEN and PHX.

I think Pandoras box is being opened... (Remember, the last thing out is hope.) If WN is hit with a bunch of offers to move their headquarters, the reality is one or more of those offers will be more cost effective than staying at DAL w/Wright.... or should I say any Wright that doesn't allow connections and direct flights to Florida and WN's other largest stations.

Who would bid for WN's HQ? PHX, HOU, LAS, DEN, MCO, possibly MDW (but Illinois doesn't have as friendly a tax structure as the other states) and a few others. I agree that one will see a *bunch* of dark horse contenders like ABQ, STL (taxes?),

It doesn't matter that WN could move to DFW. Their economic models say its better to expand elsewhere due to AA's strength at DFW. You're welcome to disagree. But at some point, a company needs to stop being hit by "analysis paralysis" and act.

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 78):
- Phoenix is too small a city in too small a state to compete, other Dallas-area cities, Houston and Chicago could be in the hunt.

??? Just passed Philidelphia in population. And LAS and PHX have the most connections in the WN system. The economy in Pheonix is a steamroller. Don't forget that very few places can compete with Pheonix in economic growth (yes, LAS and DEN are there... but you get my point).

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 78):
- SWA has sunk hundreds of millions into DAL recently. A move is therefore poppycock.

The first rule of economic planning is to forget what you've spent in the past and to only look at the future cost/benifit plan, ROI, etc. Yes, that money makes it toughter to move the HQ. If Wright stays in place for more than 24 more months... expect WN to move. That simple.

Quoting Scoljet (Reply 73):
As a side note, WN approached Wichita KS, (ICT) about being a focus city years ago before the WA. At the time the city turned them down!! No wonder we cant get decent mainline service in or out of here!

Really? Do you have a link? Man, I will be flying in and out of ICT a bunch this year and would have loved to have higher frequency service from *anyone.* While UA's times are ok for me, they could be better.  Smile

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 77):

Personally I don't think WN needs a deal from Dallas or anywhere else. They pay much less than they should to the city coffers.

Perhaps that is true enough that it will be tough to justify the economics of a HQ move... We'll see. Like I said, I give this 24 months. Less if *any* city makes the right offer to WN.

Quoting Okie (Reply 59):
Florida, Texas, Nevada, Alaska, South Dakota, Washington, Wyoming has no State income tax.

Nice link. Thanks. Ummm... no offense, but I think we can rule out Alaska for the HQ move...  Wink A little off path to fly crews for training...  Smile Not to mention the lack of WN stations. Nice info in the post overall. Note: I expect states to dicker and cut tax deals packaged as investment incentives...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
scoljet
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:49 am

Sorry lightsaber I do not have a link, go the info from a friend who used to be director of airports here in ICT. I believe the time from was late 70's early 80's. As it was we got the old Frontier instead. ICT is in desperate need of decent westward options other than UA through DEN. While you are in Wichita be sure to check out the Big Dog motorcycle at the airport!
 
boeingpride800
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:37 am

Southwest should move to PHX. It would be good for Phoenix as it is lacking transportation services sense AmericaWest is decreasing operations in the A and H concouse. WN should also consider DEN, seeing as Frontier is moving to PHL. Boeing is going to reproduce the 727, which Southwest will make big money on when they are delivered.
 
iowaman
Posts: 3864
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 2:29 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting FUMANCHEWD (Reply 21):
Many think that LAS is on the brink of slowing down. Water issues are a great concern. Phoenix shows no sign of stopping.



Quoting PlaneDane (Reply 38):
The growth here is amazing and the best part is that the infrastructure is ready for it. There's more than enough water, power, land, freeways, etc. for what is predicted to be some 20 million living here by the end of the next decade.

Doesn't PHX have water issues too?

LAS seems to be behind as far as infrastructure, especially the freeways and roads, which are extremely overcrowded and behind.

If they move anywhere, it will probably be PHX or LAS. LAS as said above is the largest WN station, and Nevada has no state income tax. However if PHX can cut them a good deal, they might move there. I'm with every one else though, I think this is more a threat than anything, I doubt they will actually move.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:22 am

Airline HQs move...its a fact of life.

Continental: El Paso>Denver>Los Angeles>Houston
Pan Am: Key West>Miami>
Mesa: Farmington>Phoenix
Spirit: Detroit>Ft Lauderdale
Delta: Monroe>Atlanta
AA: New York City>Ft Worth
Eastern: New York City>Atlanta>(Houston)
TWA:NYC>Kansas City>NYC>Mt Kisco>St Louis
airTran(ValuJet): Atlanta>Orlando
Braniff: Oklahoma City>Dallas
National Airlines (I): St Petersburg>Jacksonville>Miami
Allegiant: Fresno>Las Vegas
Delete this User
 
CentPIT
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:48 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 54):
(They eliminated PIT-SFO, but apparently they realized that that was rather foolish I suppose.)

PIT-SFO was never eliminated. PIT-SAN and PIT-SEA were eliminated and now will come back as seasonal service.
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:31 am

Southwest is listening to Phoenix because they want to keep up good relations with the city. That is very important to them. They listen to pitches all the time from places they have no intention of going to. It keeps up their image and every once in a while they do get a good idea that way. I doubt they would actually do it, since it would not be worth the complications for both the company and its employees.

The "Vieled threat" value is just icing on the cake. Southwest's political people know that the media does not put things in context, and so might have leaked this out under the table to make it sound like a "threat", when in fact meetings like this happen all the time.

A more interesting question.....if they HAD to move, where would they move?
 
B757capt
Posts: 1394
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 7:11 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting LEO777 (Reply 25):
surprised if Denver tries to sneak in here

King daley. Hah that was good. I am surprised, especially after TZ that the city of chicago hasn't tried to seek in this one.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
spyglass
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 3:17 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 11:55 am

I think if everyone goes back up the thread a ways, We'reNuts has hit it on the head....WN is not gonna move the HQ. Period. No reason to...many reasons, to wit: DallasFort is relatively inexpensive to live in, TX has no state income tax, and a majority of the employees are from the area....really don't wanna move. On top of that, it's nearly in the middle of the entire system, and will stay that way even with no-Wright expansion. 'Course, I 'spose it's fun to speculate...
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 86):
A more interesting question.....if they HAD to move, where would they move?

If the W.A. issue isn't resolved, they may very well HAVE to move (assuming they'll never consider a move to DFW).

Quoting Spyglass (Reply 88):
DallasFort is relatively inexpensive to live in

So is Phoenix.

Quoting Spyglass (Reply 88):
TX has no state income tax

Who's to say Phoenix or the state of AZ won't give them incentives?

Quoting Spyglass (Reply 88):
a majority of the employees are from the area

And why wouldn't they consider a relo? Companies relocate all the time and employees are incentivized to go with them (or given compensation to sunset).

Quoting Spyglass (Reply 88):
it's nearly in the middle of the entire system

I don't think that's too relevant since DAL doesn't have the kind of traffic or ease of access a "middle of the entire system" kind of arrangement usually affords -- thanks to the W.A.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 8053
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 12:38 pm

Headquarters locations are complicated decisions. Many of the critical factors have been mentioned in the posts above. Dallas has: (1) a very, very strong work ethic: people who work hard and understand the concept of a day's work for a day's pay, very important as to having quality support staff for headquarters and mechanics for airplanes; (2) relatively easy commute; (3) no state or city income tax on individuals; (4) low cost of housing and high quality of life for working folks and executives alike; (5) low tax on aircraft "based" there; (6) low costs of construction, with quality contractors and no graft/nonsense; (7) good public schools; (8) non-militant labor environment; (9) extraordinary cultural attractions (museums, opera, symphony, restaurants, etc.). It also used to have a relatively-sane, professional city-manager form of government. Unfortunately, in recent years it has begun to adopt the Northeast (read stupid politicians with more and more power to muck things up) form of running a city -- you'd expect this kind of lunacy in San Francisco or Portland, but I wouldn't have expected it from Dallas when I lived there. I guess the Yankees are screwing it up.

Obvious candidates are Chicago, Houston, Vegas, Phoenix, Baltimore, Philadephia, Oakland, Denver. When you start to compare the factors that I identified above, before "incentives", you can see that all the potential cities do significantly worse on at least one factor. You also have the problem that when you put executives in a different city, the culture of the company cannot help but change. Go to someplace like San Antonio to keep some of the Texas benefits, you lose some of the sophistication; go somewhere like Houston, you face more big-city problems that Dallas has minimized; go to Chicago, you lose a lot of the fundamentals that make Southwest work; go to Vegas, you get a little bit of Chicago at the same time that you keep some of the Texas benefits.

It's a condundrum. And there's no "right" answer, although there may be some clearly wrong ones.

One thing that is truly sad, though: Most politicians grossly underestimate the willingness of companies to move, because government is a lumbering beast and business can be extremely nimble. By the time a company is talking about moving, it's an indication that the politicians have let them feel taken for granted. Seattle really screwed up by letting Boeing move its HQ to Chicago, but even entertaining the option of moving was the result of years of Seattle taking Boeing for granted. New York lost a huge amount of business to New Jersey for the same reason -- business that could just as well have been accomodated in Brooklyn or Queens or Westchester but for political stupidity. Years before, New York lost the headquarters of an extraordinary number of the companies that actually make stuff (rather than those that just exchange money), because of its insane anti-business political climate. GTE and Exxon are delighted to be in Las Colinas, Texas; International Paper is delighted to be in Nashville; and so on. On the other hand, twenty years after I first arrived there, name me one big company that thought that downtown Dallas was a super place to relocate to. Be shortsighted enough to take one successful company for granted, and your chances of having another one decide to move in become decidedly lower. And it sure looks like Dallas is screwing this up.

[Edited 2006-02-26 04:47:23]
 
We're Nuts
Posts: 4723
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 6:12 am

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 64):
And you know this how? In the business world you don't have the time to "accept meetings merely as a courtesy" when its someting that you think is total BS, especially when you're running as large and complex a corporation as SWA.

Posted above:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 11):
"They came knocking and we decided, as a courtesy, to grant the opportunity," said Southwest spokesman Ed Stewart. The airline did not request the meeting, and it has not been scheduled, he said.



Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 69):
The Love Field Master Plan mentions Southwest having a training facility in the North Concourse. Is that the FA training facility or is that for other employees?

Yup, that's the FA school. Very nice facility, though the old terminal is a dump.
Dear moderators: No.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18417
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Southwest: PHX Lobbying For Headquarters

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:55 pm

I thought about this topic more than I should have today...

Assumption: WN is planning for their hedges to expire in a high fuel cost environment and has decided to improve their post hedge competitiveness.

Hypothesis: WN sees four solutions to this potential problem:
1. Increase RASM
2. Decrease non-fuel CASM
3. Decrease fuel CASM (engine upgrades, maybe winglet the 733's, etc.)
4. A mixture of the above.

Let's look at the Headquarters from a cost/benifit (CASM/RASM) perspective.

For the above points:
1. RASM could be increased dramatically at DAL if Wright were partially or fully repealed.
2. CASM for WN will drop if the HQ has full access to their *entire* system. (Cheaper movements for employees to/from HQ.) Also, the more flights at HQ, the more economies of scale reduce the CASM per flight as fixed costs are amortized across more seats.
3. A centrally located HQ decreases fuel costs moving around staff. Here DAL benifits geographically, but perhaps the best "central location" would be the centroid of WN operations which is further west (e.g., nearer DEN).
4. A combination of the above.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 81):
Airline HQs move...its a fact of life.

Continental: El Paso>Denver>Los Angeles>Houston
Pan Am: Key West>Miami>
Mesa: Farmington>Phoenix
Spirit: Detroit>Ft Lauderdale
Delta: Monroe>Atlanta
AA: New York City>Ft Worth
Eastern: New York City>Atlanta>(Houston)
TWA:NYC>Kansas City>NYC>Mt Kisco>St Louis
airTran(ValuJet): Atlanta>Orlando
Braniff: Oklahoma City>Dallas
National Airlines (I): St Petersburg>Jacksonville>Miami
Allegiant: Fresno>Las Vegas

Nice list. I'm reposting it as I'm in shock how many airlines have moved their HQ. Also, the original Pan Am also move their HQ from NYC to IIRC Miami? Recall, Once upon a time that Met life building was the PanAm building!

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 87):
One thing that is truly sad, though: Most politicians grossly underestimate the willingness of companies to move, because government is a lumbering beast and business can be extremely nimble. By the time a company is talking about moving, it's an indication that the politicians have let them feel taken for granted.

 checkmark  First, a really good post on many points. While there are definately costs to moving a HQ, you hit the nail on the head when you point out it can be done pretty quickly and a government can easily drive away a business.

IIRC the cost of moving a business is the new infrastructure plus about $30,000 per employee. (Cost of moving a family or the cost of hiring/training a new employee.)

Quoting Scoljet (Reply 78):
While you are in Wichita be sure to check out the Big Dog motorcycle at the airport!

That thing is weird but very cool! Thanks for the update. Appreciate the info in your post on ICT.

The more I think about this, the more I believe that WN will make a serious play to force a decision at DAL: open up Wright or we move. Note: This is going to be a glacially slow process. But within 24 months, the answer will be made one way or the other. The next step would be to announce the end of their patience with the lack of political support and formally request bids for the HQ relocation (a la Boeing's HQ move).

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos