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lazyshaun
Topic Author
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BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:15 am

Just saw it on justplanes.They are supposed to be ordered in 2007-ish. BA also have some 320's and 319's to be delivered in that year as well, 2 319's and 3 320's. It worries me that by ordering 321's might mean the departure of some 757's...  Sad
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boeingguy1
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:36 am

I dont understand... isnt the 757 a better (economically) plane compare dto the A321? At least theyll get some cash for those 757's... maybe CO is intrested?  Smile <<<< Wishful thinking  Silly
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BestWestern
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Boeingguy1 (Reply 1):
isnt the 757 a better (economically) plane compare dto the A321

For the routes BA will be using the 321 for it is a far superior aircraft in comparison to the 757.
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jacobin777
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 2):

For the routes BA will be using the 321 for it is a far superior aircraft in comparison to the 757.

though I'll take a 757 over A321 any day of the year (not that I don't like A321's), you might be correct, however, only if the routes were known can one make an accurate judgement.


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dutchjet
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:02 am

It is not surprising that BA is adding to its A32X fleet in order to add some capacity on European/regional routes - also consider that BA may be eliminating more 2nd generation 737s from its fleet as leases expire, etc. BA still has a good number of 737s in their fleet.

I would not be too concerned about the 752s that remain in the BA fleet - BA kept the newest 757s in their fleet and, as far as I know, plans to retain the small 757 fleet for the near term future. The 752s are versatile aircraft and are very useful to BA - the 752 is more airplane than the A321 and while the A321 can fly most of the segments that a 757 handle, there are some route/payload/operating conditions which require the 752. It is expected that BA will select a single type to replace its 752/763ER fleets....as BA just finished updating their 763ERs, its likely that the 752s and 763ERs will remain with BA for the medium-term future.
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:04 am

BA are using the 321 on short hops ex Terminal 4 (CDG etc.)

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
though I'll take a 757 over A321

As someone who takes A321 twice a week... I'd take anything for some variety.
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whitehatter
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:31 am

The 757 did its job at BA.

One consideration is that it was used on short European sectors and domestic shuttles, so the aircraft accumulated high cycles in a relatively short time. That's not a Good Thing.

The A321 is a better fit on many routes as it is more tailored to short hops. Using a 757 on flights of under an hour is something of a waste of that aircraft's capability, and the A321 offers better economics for those stages. You just don't need the power and range for LON-EDI and back maybe 4 or 5 times a day.

I would expect the 757s to head the same way as the last batch, to DHL. Their low cycle freight operations are ideal for high-cycle aircraft.
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Crosswind
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
though I'll take a 757 over A321 any day of the year (not that I don't like A321's), you might be correct, however, only if the routes were known can one make an accurate judgement.

On anything up to 5 hours+ the A321s operating costs are far lower due to it being significantly lighter and having a significantly lower fuel burn. On BA's current 757 route network the aircraft is completely wasted, and that translates into a direct cost penalty hauling around the extra weight.

BA's recent regular 757 destinations include;

Aberdeen
Berlin TXL
Budapest
Dusseldorf
Edinburgh
Frankfurt
Glasgow
Hamburg
Lisbon
Madrid
Manchester
Milan MXP
Nice
Prague
Rome FCO
Warsaw

Even on longer sectors formerly served by the 757 such as Athens, Istanbul and Larnaca would not suffer any penalties if operated by A321.

My definitive A321 v B757 arguments can be found here

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
The 752s are versatile aircraft and are very useful to BA - the 752 is more airplane than the A321 and while the A321 can fly most of the segments that a 757 handle, there are some route/payload/operating conditions which require the 752.

As I said above the 757s capabilities are completely wasted by BA, and there are no European routes that BA could not operated an A321 on without penalty. My airline operates A321s on flights up to 5 hours, I can't remember the last time we were payload/performance restricted, it was about 2 years ago and caused by a combination of short runway, unusually low pressure, long flight time due headwinds (5hrs+) and full passenger load (218)

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 6):
I would expect the 757s to head the same way as the last batch, to DHL. Their low cycle freight operations are ideal for high-cycle aircraft.

The later G-CPE_ registered aircraft are far more likely to continue in their passenger role with other airlines, they may have a high number of cycles vs flight hours, but their total number of hours is low due to fairly low utilisation. That coupled with only being built in 1997/98 will mean they are very desirable in the passenger market and will be able to command better lease rates than as freighters. With the majority of their lives still ahead of them these aircrafts' cycles/hours ratio would quickly begin to average out if put to use on longer sectors.

The DHL fleet were converted to freighters as they had accumulated 10-15 years of work on short-haul routes, a fair amount of cycles but again not particularly high number of hours for their age, plus the 535C engines made them unattractive and inflexible for the passenger market. However as a job lot the fleet proved perfect for DHL on their low utilisation short-haul freight network.

Regards
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DavidT
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 7:31 pm

And in my dreams:

BA orders 15 A319 aircraft to be based at MAN for its BA Connect regional service.

:D
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:06 pm

Crosswind - looks like this is a more mature 757 A321 discussion. As BA dont operate a charter config 321 they would have even less reason to keep their 757's. My last 757 experience on BA was ex BUD, and the aircraft have really seen better days.
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G-CIVP
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Mon Feb 27, 2006 3:16 am

The BA B757's depart the fleet starting in Sept/Oct of this year.
 
madhatter
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:07 am

I was under the impression the recent small A320 and A321 order they placed was to replace the BCal A320s still in their fleet. When has it been announced they were replacing their 757s? They haven't got enough aircraft on order to do so.

Madhatter
 
whitehatter
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 7):
The later G-CPE_ registered aircraft are far more likely to continue in their passenger role with other airlines, they may have a high number of cycles vs flight hours, but their total number of hours is low due to fairly low utilisation.

Was there not some talk of a first refusal deal BA had done with DHL over the entire fleet?

When the aircraft came up for replacement DHL would be given the opportunity to take the remainder, before they were parked or sold off?
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jacobin777
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 7):
On anything up to 5 hours+ the A321s operating costs are far lower due to it being significantly lighter and having a significantly lower fuel burn. On BA's current 757 route network the aircraft is completely wasted, and that translates into a direct cost penalty hauling around the extra weight.

thanks for the info.....looking at their 757 routes which you provided, it does seem as if the 757's might be a bit "overkill"...

that being said, I love the 757's.....such a "hotrod" aircraft!!!

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 5):

As someone who takes A321 twice a week... I'd take anything for some variety.

I agree..I know how you feel, as I fly on AA's "mad-dogs" MD-80's on 70% of my flights... Sad
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lazyshaun
Topic Author
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:07 am

Madhatter, there was an order last year for Bmed, and GeeBee (I think), to add to their fleets, but this is for BA, not GeeBee/Bmed. It is somewhat an uncertainty when the 757's will leave their fleet, but with various A32X a/c arriving here and there over the next years or so, I think there may be some departing soon. I don't know where you got that info, G-CIVP, but it would make sense to lose maybe one or two before the 32X's arrive in 2007.

I love how these threads quickly turn into comparing 757's with A321's, and usually the A321 wins the argument, simply because of the job its got to take over from the 757 in comparison.
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FlyCaledonian
Posts: 1994
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:35 pm

https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2612796

If you'd searched Lazyshaun you'd have seen I started the above thread about the additional BA A320 family orders.

Basically BA had 3 A319s and 3 A320s left on order from their previous A319/A320 order. BA has converted the A319s to A320s, plus ordered one more, making 7 A320s for delivery in 2007/08. It also ordered 3 additional A321s, again for delivery in 2007/08. The 10 aircraft will replace the CFM powered A320s, originally ordered for British Caledonian and delivered to BA between 1988-90. Incidentially, the 10 CFM A320s are among the oldest aircraft in the BA fleet.

As things stand nothing decided about replacing the 13 757s, which form a common fleet in terms of crew rating with the 7 shorthaul 767s (Was 11 but 4 being reconfigured for longhaul flights this summer).
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Lazyshaun (Reply 14):
I love how these threads quickly turn into comparing 757's with A321's, and usually the A321 wins the argument, simply because of the job its got to take over from the 757 in comparison.

Well for me and for a lot of aviation fans, the 757 is an amazing aircraft and beats 321 hands down!
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donder10
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 16):
I love how these threads quickly turn into comparing 757's with A321's, and usually the A321 wins the argument, simply because of the job its got to take over from the 757 in comparison.

Welcome to the real world.
 
RedChili
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 7):
BA's recent regular 757 destinations include;

You can add ARN to that list; usually a couple of 757s a day, plus some A319s and a B763.
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vv701
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
also consider that BA may be eliminating more 2nd generation 737s from its fleet as leases expire, etc



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
It is not surprising that BA is adding to its A32X fleet in order to add some capacity on European/regional routes - also consider that BA may be eliminating more 2nd generation 737s from its fleet as leases expire, etc

BA returned one 735 to its lessor last year. But two others were ferried LGW-LHR in December and went to the BA paint shop and were repainted. So it looks as if their leases have been extended.

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 10):
The BA B757's depart the fleet starting in Sept/Oct of this year.



Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 15):
As things stand nothing decided about replacing the 13 757s, which form a common fleet in terms of crew rating with the 7 shorthaul 767s (Was 11 but 4 being reconfigured for longhaul flights this summer).

Or are some / all of the newly ordered aircraft for franchise partners BMed or GB Airways. The last A321 order was not all for BA itself. I guess that their greater buying and negotiating power gives them a better price than either BMed or GBA could negotiate.

Personally I would be surprised if BA got rid of their admittedly small 752 fleet as many of the aircraft are still quite young. As for getting rid of the fleet starting this coming autumn this does not seem compatible with the passenger growth of 8 per cent that the airline is forecasting on its web site. It would require a huge increase in aircraft productivity to achieve this with a smaller fleet. So if the 752s are really going BA will have to lease in replacement aircraft which would raise their cost base. Hmmmm?!?
 
Candid76
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Fri Mar 03, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 15):
The 10 aircraft will replace the CFM powered A320s, originally ordered for British Caledonian and delivered to BA between 1988-90. Incidentially, the 10 CFM A320s are among the oldest aircraft in the BA fleet.

As these include some of the very early (and very rare) 100 series aircraft, it will be very interesting to see if they get any takers. Maybe they could be part exchanged to Airbus and PAMELA might get her hands on them?
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA Order 1 A320, 3 A321

Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
Or are some / all of the newly ordered aircraft for franchise partners BMed or GB Airways. The last A321 order was not all for BA itself. I guess that their greater buying and negotiating power gives them a better price than either BMed or GBA could negotiate.

True that 3 of the A321s BA previously ordered went to GT, but this looks like it's all for BA this time. GT and KJ both have their A321 orders from last year for delivery over next couple of years. They used up some of BA's options as yes, it benefits them to use the negotiating power of BA, but then again BA took out a mass of options when it placed the original order for 43 A319s and 20 A320s in the late 1990s. At that time these aircraft were for BA Regional and EuroGatwick, and it was thought Deutsche BA and Air Liberte would re-equip with the A320 aircraft too. How things have changed since then!
Let's Go British Caledonian!

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