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KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2894
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:36 am

Courtesy: The Associated Press

Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060301/delta_pilots.html?.v=5

[Edited 2006-03-01 23:37:28]
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:27 am

It will be an interesting few weeks.

The thing I don't get is the strongarmed smoke and mirrror tactics that the pilots are using. First, they agree to the binding arbitration and were even allowed to pick two of the three arbitrators. Yet they say that if they don't get what they want, which is not to have their contract thrown out, they will still strike. This appears to be an all or nothing tactic and not in the spirit of good faith negotiating. If it were good faith, then they should be willing to accept the ruling of the arbritrators, just like the company has to do. Second, I have to wonder how serious they are about the strike. Sure they set up a strike center, but they haven't taken a strike authorization vote. This is why I think they are full of smoke and mirrors.
Tailwinds!!!
 
wnsocal
Posts: 126
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 2:41 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 1):
This appears to be an all or nothing tactic and not in the spirit of good faith negotiating.

So you mean the pilot group is acting just like airline management. They agree to something and then change it later. (ie, UA and US Bankruptcies?)

It's about time someone stood up to these guys.

I wish everyone all the best in this battle.
Airline Nut
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:37 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 1):
Yet they say that if they don't get what they want, which is not to have their contract thrown out, they will still strike.

According to the RLA if both parties agree to binding arbitration the pilots can't legally strike if you don't like the terms. As for management, they could abide by the ruling of the arbitrators and then ask the BK judge to over turn the ruling. In BK it seems to be anything goes on the management side.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:49 pm

Dokken10:

You have to remember that the bankruptcy code, for better or worse, is designed to help a debtor back to financial health, even at the expense of employees and creditors.

The belief is that it is better for an debtor to stay in business and have jobs, rather than shut down, put all the employees on the street, and start selling off assets to pay creditors.
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:04 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 1):
but they haven't taken a strike authorization vote

Strike authorization balloting starts Monday March 6 and ends on April 4. Arbitration hearings are the weeks of March 13 and March 20 and the arbitrators will have up to April 15 to deliver a decision.

Negotiations will resume this Friday March 3.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:04 pm

KarlB737, thanks for all the good threads, but do you say anything other than posting a link? Just wondering, I've never heard YOU express your opinion in the matter.

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 1):
First, they agree to the binding arbitration and were even allowed to pick two of the three arbitrators. Yet they say that if they don't get what they want, which is not to have their contract thrown out, they will still strike. This appears to be an all or nothing tactic and not in the spirit of good faith negotiating.[/

Accepting the arbitration was assuming it was going to be a ruling about a dollar amount of cuts (I don't think you'll see a strike if they rule on 250 million, etc). Using arbitration to get a contract thrown out is too much, it goes well beyond the scope of paycuts- it goes into the realm of totally degrading your workers. I won't be a broken record, but I hope it does come to a strike it the panel does throw out the contract...I think the pilots have played semi-fair, but this business of the company relying on 1113 hearings and arbitrators to get what they want is downright low.

So, the question now becomes, who's going to strike first? NW or DL? Odds are, one of them is going to, so it's just a race to the finish line.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
panamair
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 6):
but this business of the company relying on 1113 hearings and arbitrators to get what they want is downright low.

C'mon...the pilots agreed to use arbitration as well...in fact, they got to choose 2 of the 3 arbitrators!!
 
Dokken10
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:19 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:37 am

For the life of me, I can't remember both parties agreeing to binding arbitration ever!! Is this a first in the airline industry?
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:14 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Fri Mar 03, 2006 1:53 am

Many of you don't seem to understand the role of the arbitrators. The only decision that they are faced with is whether or not to accept mgt's 1113 petition. In other words, DALPA and mgt simply agreed to replace a judge who was unfamiliar with airline contracts with three arbitrators who are more familiar with them. They are not tasked with deciding or negotiating a new contract, and those who say otherwise are unfamiliar with what we agreed to and should probably get the facts before they criticize.

Like the judge, they have one decision, to keep the contract or to throw it out. As always, the Delta pilots stand ready to negotiate and give concessions, as we have done in FIFTY side letters since contract 2000. However, we will not work without a contract. If it is thrown out, we will strike.
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 6):
I won't be a broken record, but I hope it does come to a strike it the panel does throw out the contract...



Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 9):
If it is thrown out, we will strike.

This pretty much says it all:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
C'mon...the pilots agreed to use arbitration as well...in fact, they got to choose 2 of the 3 arbitrators!!

YOUR UNION agreed to this. YOUR UNION agreed that it's decision is BINDING. YOUR UNION gets to pick 2 of the 3 arbitrators. If you strike, it will be ILLEGAL.

There is no argument here, stop holding the rest of the employees hostage.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
YOUR UNION agreed that it's decision is BINDING. YOUR UNION gets to pick 2 of the 3 arbitrators. If you strike, it will be ILLEGAL.

And what do you have to support this argument that a strike would be illegal? The only decision the arbitrator is making is whether or not DL can throw out the contract. THAT'S IT.

If the arbitrator throws out the contract, the pilots have nothing that legally binds them to come to work anymore. They become at-will employees.

However, I think the chance of a strike is relatively small. The two sides will likely reach an agreement.
 
767-332ER
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2001 1:20 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
However, I think the chance of a strike is relatively small. The two sides will likely reach an agreement.

I hope you are correct my friend. Lot of people depend on your statement being a correct one.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
B777-700
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Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
And what do you have to support this argument that a strike would be illegal?

What part of "BOTH parties AGREED that the arbitrators decision is BINDING" do you not understand?
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
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RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
If the arbitrator throws out the contract, the pilots have nothing that legally binds them to come to work anymore. They become at-will employees.

Not a difficult concept but it seems to be eluding some folks. With NW and its pilots apparently surmounting a major hurdle on the road to labor peace, the onus is on DL and DALPA to come to terms. Both sides are hungry for a deal to preserve the airline. I suspect arbitration may be just the ticket....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
FlyPNS1
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 13):
What part of "BOTH parties AGREED that the arbitrators decision is BINDING" do you not understand?

The arbitrator's only decision is whether or not to throw out the contract. THAT'S IT. The pilots have only agreed to allow the contract to be thrown out. However, they have NOT agreed to work under the pay/rules that DL management would implement.

There's a big difference.
 
B777-700
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RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 15):
The arbitrator's only decision is whether or not to throw out the contract. THAT'S IT. The pilots have only agreed to allow the contract to be thrown out. However, they have NOT agreed to work under the pay/rules that DL management would implement.

My goodness, you are quite thick. The standards the arbitrators apply include the following:

Does management need the level of cost savings it is asking from the union to achieve a successful restructure and emerge from chapter 11...

Is managements request fair and equitable and does not place an unfair burden on the union...

Is management seeking the savings through good faith negotiations...

Did the union have good cause to reject the companies proposal...

Now, knowing the issues they will be looking at, and together with the knowledge that BOTH parties agreed that the decision is binding, if they do not rule in favor for the union, a strike would be illegal.

This is not a hard thing to understand. You might not like it, but it is reality.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 16):
Now, knowing the issues they will be looking at, and together with the knowledge that BOTH parties agreed that the decision is binding, if they do not rule in favor for the union, a strike would be illegal.

The only thing that is binding is the decision to throw out the contract. If the arbitrator's allow management to do so, the pilots must accept that the contract is gone. That is the only BINDING part.

However, the pilot's do NOT have to accept to work under the rules implemented by management. That is NOT part of the arbitration. The pilots cannot be forced to work without a contract.

This is NOT the same as traditional binding arbitration. The only thing the arbitrators are ruling on is whether the contract can be thrown out. They are NOT ruling on the terms of a new contract.

Do a little research next time.
 
B777-700
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Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
The only thing that is binding is the decision to throw out the contract.

Which the pilots agreed to. If they rule in favor of management, the arbitrator would have determined that the company is correct in it's numbers, and have negotiated fairly.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
However, the pilot's do NOT have to accept to work under the rules implemented by management. That is NOT part of the arbitration. The pilots cannot be forced to work without a contract.

Then where is the point in any of this? Do you honestly thing either side would agree to this if it wouldn't make a difference anyway? Stop being ridiculous!

Agreement to abide + strike anyway = illegal strike. I cannot make this any easier for you.

Either way, they agreed to it, there's no "take backs".

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Do a little research next time.

I love your irony. Please show where you are receiving your information from...

What stake do you have in all of this?
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:14 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:39 am

B777

You are incorrect. PNS is correct.

Please reread my earlier post. It should have been quite clear.

I have to admit a bit of amusement at you calling someone else "thick" when it is you who doesn't understand the agreement and won't listen to someone who does.

I will try to make it easier to understand...We agreed simply to replace the judge with the panel. Nothing else. The results would be the same whether a judge threw out the contract or the panel does. It is my sincere hope that Delta mgt realizes this and negotiates in good faith.

I think a 50% pay cut, work rule and benefit cuts, loss of 40% of our pilot positions, and now the loss of our pension is enough.


(And for the record, I do have a stake in it. I had a vote. And I read LOA 50 in its entirety before I voted. Perhaps you should do the same...You do know what LOA 50 is, right?)
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
You are incorrect. PNS is correct.

Oh I'm sorry, the judge of the a.net message board has spoken!  Yeah sure

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
We agreed simply to replace the judge with the panel. Nothing else

That is not true. Your union agreed to hold the arbitrator's decision binding. This is stated in countless amounts of company releases, that you should have access to. This is in countless news articles.

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
It is my sincere hope that Delta mgt realizes this and negotiates in good faith.

I believe the panel will find that they have been. You are the ones that haven't, with a ridiculous 115 million offer! On top of that, this strike / shut down threat. But that's not really the debate here.

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
and now the loss of our pension is enough.

Please show me documentation, or reported news articles stating the pilots have lots their pension.

You can't because they haven't. Nice try.

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
(And for the record, I do have a stake in it. I had a vote. And I read LOA 50 in its entirety before I voted. Perhaps you should do the same...You do know what LOA 50 is, right?)

Yeeees, I do, smart guy. Although it seems like you read what you wanted to believe. The one I read said "...If this timeline is not met, Delta and ALPA have agreed to submit the Section 1113 issue to a mutually agreed upon, neutral panel of three airline labor experts for a binding decision on the issue..."

Part 6, paragraph E, subset 4. Go look it up in case you forgot.

If the panel (again, of which your union will choose the majority of members) decides in favor of the company, you won't have a leg to stand on.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10367
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:55 am

Is the Section 1113 issue the voiding of the old contract only or does it include it's substitution with a new contract.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:16 am

If a strike was illegal, why have the pilots already opened a strike center and requested a $10 million dollar strike fund from ALPA national?

Once again, the only binding part of the arbitration is the cancellation of the contract. However, the pilots are NOT bound to work without a contract. Show me in where in LOA 50 it says the pilots will work without a contract. You won't find it because it isn't there.

You can't force people to work without a contract. At-will employees can choose not to work whenever they please. At-will employees can also be terminated for not coming to work. If the pilots go on strike because there is no contract, DL would have the right to fire them and replace them...something they can't do when a contract is in place. However, firing and replacing the pilots is not a feasible plan.
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
If a strike was illegal, why have the pilots already opened a strike center and requested a $10 million dollar strike fund from ALPA national?

Posing my friend. Please tell me you know this! lol. They need to play hardball to get what they want. It kinda defeats the purpose of threatening if you don't play along...

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Show me in where in LOA 50 it says the pilots will work without a contract.

I don't have to. I showed you evidence to back up my claim. I will not do your work for you. The honus is on you now to back up your statement.

Are you a DL pilot? Again, I ask what stake you have in this, and where you get you information from? Your lack of any answer after repeated requests does not do well for your argument.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
I showed you evidence to back up my claim

Your evidence doesn't support your claim, it supports mine.

The only thing subject to binding arbitration is the Section 1113 motion which is whether or not the contract can be cancelled. That is the ONLY item subject to the binding arbitration. The pilots will have to accept that their contract is cancelled, however they are not bound to work under those conditions. The arbitrators are NOT ruling on whether DL pilots have to work under implemented conditions.

I'm sorry that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, but these are the facts. No where in LOA 50 does it state that the DL pilots will work without a contract.

If DL voids the pilot contract, the pilots become at-will employees and can quit/strike whenever they want. Any employee who does not have a contract is an at-will employee and has these basic rights.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 19):
loss of 40% of our pilot positions, and now the loss of our pension is enough.

Please explain these two statements.
How would 40% of the pilot positions be lost?
When did Delta take away the pilot's pensions. ( Don't think this happened or has it been proposed)
 
AT
Posts: 905
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:39 am

don't pilots for all airlines get paid the same? at least the biggest ones?
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Your evidence doesn't support your claim, it supports mine.

Haha yeah right!

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
I'm sorry that you lack basic reading comprehension skills, but these are the facts.

Are they now? And where are you getting these facts?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
No where in LOA 50 does it state that the DL pilots will work without a contract.

It does pretty clearly state that they agreed to abide by the panels decision. If the panel decides against them, they have no legal grounds to stand on.

Again, I ask you...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
Are you a DL pilot? Again, I ask what stake you have in this, and where you get you information from? Your lack of any answer after repeated requests does not do well for your argument.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 27):
It does pretty clearly state that they agreed to abide by the panels decision.

Yes and the panel"s decision is only to allow DL to cancel the contract....nothing more. The panel has NO say over whether the pilots can strike that is NOT covered by the arbitration. Again, this binding arbitration is NOT like traditional binding arbitration that imposes a new contract. The arbitrators are only ruling if DL can throw out the old contract. However, there would be NO new contract in place. Without a contract, the pilots can strike.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 27):
Are you a DL pilot? Again, I ask what stake you have in this, and where you get you information from?

No, I am not a pilot. I am a customer of Delta's as well as someone that personally knows DL pilots and many other DL employees.

I haven't met a pilot yet or anyone else that thinks a strike would be illegal. In fact, you are the ONLY person I have ever met that says the binding arbitration makes a strike illegal.
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 28):
No, I am not a pilot. I am a customer of Delta's as well as someone that personally knows DL pilots and many other DL employees.

Ok, so it's pretty clear you're getting second hand information. Biased info at that. Don't bother tagging on "other" DL employees, you're just listening to the pilots.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 28):
I haven't met a pilot yet or anyone else that thinks a strike would be illegal. In fact, you are the ONLY person I have ever met that says the binding arbitration makes a strike illegal.

Because you're only hearing what you want to. You clearly don't know what you're talking about, and only acting as a pet parrot of your pilot buddies.

I'm sorry I wasted my time argueing with you. You clearly refuse to listen to another point of view.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
You clearly refuse to listen to another point of view.

I hear what you are saying and it is simply wrong. You are misinterpreting what the binding arbitration means in this case.

If a strike was illegal, why hasn't this been brought up in the media? The media has reported heavily on the threat of a strike and not once have they said that binding arbitration makes a strike illegal.

Even DL's management has not said that binding arbitration prevents a strike. They've said a strike would be "murder-suicide", but they haven't said it would be illegal.

You are the only person that thinks binding arbitration makes a strike illegal in this case.
 
flyingdoc
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:53 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:55 am

My only interest in this debate is that I am a loyal DL frequent flyer, Platinum Medallion for several years. What is the time line for coming events? I am flying on DL several times over the next several weeks, including multiple trips overseas. I know that if the pilots strike, it will be the end of Delta. Will I get stranded???
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 30):
You are the only person that thinks binding arbitration makes a strike illegal in this case.

Well, that's just super...  Yeah sure

Quoting FlyingDoc (Reply 31):
My only interest in this debate is that I am a loyal DL frequent flyer, Platinum Medallion for several years. What is the time line for coming events? I am flying on DL several times over the next several weeks, including multiple trips overseas. I know that if the pilots strike, it will be the end of Delta. Will I get stranded???

There will be a decision by 15APR at the latest.

Then again, 50,000 people will be out of a job, and lose their source of income. Sounds kinda selfish when you put it the way you did.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:14 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:24 pm

Our pension has not yet been dropped. It has been frozen. Delta has also stopped contributing to it. As a result, it has become so woefully underfunded that it will be dropped soon, or the PBGC will force a distressed termination. Either way, it is cooked. Even with the proposed funding laws being debated, it will still not survive. Unfortunately, Delta management will not include the cost of the pension in their $325 million dollar request. Nor will they assign a dollar value to the scope changes they want. In other words, they are asking for far more than $325 million.

Also, B777, in your own words you will find the answer to this debate. You quoted "If this timeline is not met, Delta and ALPA have agreed to submit the Section 1113 issue to a mutually agreed upon, neutral panel of three airline labor experts for a binding decision on the issue..." Please read it closely. We agreed to submit the 1113 issue to a neutral panel. The 1113 is a request to throw out our contract. We agreed to let them decide, rather than a judge. We did not, however, ANYWHERE OR ANYTIME, agree to work without a contract. I am sorry if you don't understand this, frankly, you don't have to. I do, and I am the one here with a vote.

Bob, to answer your question, in 2000 we had 10,155 pilots. Today we have about 6400. While it isn't quite 40%, it's pretty close! And now mgt wants us to change our scope to allow them to farm out even more of our jobs. As if their grand plan of blanketing the sky with rjs worked so well for them in the past!
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 33):
Our pension has not yet been dropped.



Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 33):
Bob, to answer your question, in 2000 we had 10,155 pilots. Today we have about 6400. While it isn't quite 40%, it's pretty close!

Now, when you admit to outright lying and inflating your numbers, like you just did, how on earth are we supposed to take you seriously?

Have fun with your vote. I hope you smile at the thought of putting 50,000 people out of work.

Karma can be a bitch.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:45 pm

don't worry about a strike. There are so many layers of government involvement that can prevent or stop a strike. No judge wants to be tasked with deciding whether bankruptcy law supercedes labor law and will push the issue to the limit to make sure such a question is never addressed.

Even if the bankrupty process completely unravels, the President has not relinquished his right to force labor groups back to work. And this President is pro-business and not at all interested in allowing labor at the airline that carries more connecting passengers and serves more US cities than any other airline to take down the US economy. You can bet he'll take the risk of being ruled that he is wrong later to prevent such damage now.

Get out the Vaseline. It's coming. You bragged for far too long that you were the highest paid pilots in the country...heck maybe even in the world. But it's time to return the borrowed money and you have been borrowing at sub-prime interest rates. This will hurt so take the Tylenol now.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 33):
Also, B777, in your own words you will find the answer to this debate. You quoted "If this timeline is not met, Delta and ALPA have agreed to submit the Section 1113 issue to a mutually agreed upon, neutral panel of three airline labor experts for a binding decision on the issue..." Please read it closely. We agreed to submit the 1113 issue to a neutral panel. The 1113 is a request to throw out our contract. We agreed to let them decide, rather than a judge. We did not, however, ANYWHERE OR ANYTIME, agree to work without a contract. I am sorry if you don't understand this, frankly, you don't have to. I do, and I am the one here with a vote.

My brother is DL pilot who also has a vote, and he told me the same thing regarding the binding arbitration issue. If the contract is tossed, and management rolls back pay, benefits and work rules beyond what the pilots feel is necessary, they may very well strike.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
don't worry about a strike. There are so many layers of government involvement that can prevent or stop a strike.

While a strike may not happen, your faith in the government is charmingly naive. The government is going to order pilots who don't have a contract to work without one? What critical national security interest is involved here? This isn't the entire steel industry grinding to a halt - it's one airline. Last time I checked, there was more than one other airline operating in the US.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
DualQual
Posts: 725
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 34):
Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 33):
Bob, to answer your question, in 2000 we had 10,155 pilots. Today we have about 6400. While it isn't quite 40%, it's pretty close!

Now, when you admit to outright lying and inflating your numbers, like you just did, how on earth are we supposed to take you seriously?

Do the math and you'll see it's 37%. I think you can cut him a little slack over what amounts to a 3% "error". Lighten up Francis.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
apodino
Posts: 4017
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:42 pm

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 33):
Bob, to answer your question, in 2000 we had 10,155 pilots. Today we have about 6400. While it isn't quite 40%, it's pretty close! And now mgt wants us to change our scope to allow them to farm out even more of our jobs. As if their grand plan of blanketing the sky with rjs worked so well for them in the past!

Without being familiar with the situation at Delta, I read somewhere that when connection first got the CRJ's for Comair and ASA Delta management wanted to use mainline pilots to fly them since they were jets, but then the Union refused. I don't know if thats true or not, but if it is true, why then did you guys not want to keep flying inhouse, but all of a sudden, you guys do now? Wouldn't it have been much easier to keep it inhouse years ago, and I also believe this opened pandoras box as far as industry outsourcing goes.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:05 pm

apodino,
DALPA leadership will go down as one of the greatest leadership failures in the history of any organization. They have consistely refused to accept reality and in so doing have only given management more power - only to see management's original plan being implemented but at the expense of DL pilots.

I'd sure like to know if the DL pilots here would like to go back and reconsider Leo Mullin's original concession request for something like $500 million dollars. Afer $1B already has been given with the prospect of tacking on another $500M plus, Leo's offer looks pretty attractive. It's hard to say whether Leo's original "ask" would have been enough but one can only look at AA and realize that their employees took the painful step, moved on, and their company has not been back asking for more. Time is money and DALPA has insisted on pi83ing it away in their attempt to demonstrate their machismo. DALPA insisted that it wouldn't give a dime until DL was in such a dire position that they were on their knees. DL is on its knees now and has gained all of the power. DL is supported in its concessionary requests by creditors, the government, and probably most non-union DL employees. At every step of the way, DL pilots have refused to face reality and have only allowed management to gain more power, allowing them to dig even deeper.

And don't tell us you will just call in sick. I understand DL pilots have been calling in since a year ago last fall at a rate of ONE MONTH per YEAR per pilot. If that's not the height of childish stupidity, I don't know what is. You only provide ammunition to every party that examines the situation including those who will arbitrate the case that you have acted irrresponsibly every step of the way.

I genuinely feel sorry for DL pilots as individuals because I don't honestly think most are this stupid. However, they elected and continue to support leadership that has fought management every step of the way - completely in contrast to DL pilot leadership over the years that has worked with the company to face challenges. Ultimately, DL pilots will lose in such an incredibly big way and they will still be flying but for a heck of a lot less money. It didn't have to end this way but DL pilots chose it and will now have to live with the consequences.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 39):
However, they elected and continue to support leadership that has fought management every step of the way - completely in contrast to DL pilot leadership over the years that has worked with the company to face challenges.

I'll agree with your assessment that DALPA has been out of touch with reality. They've spent too long clinging to the image of a pilot profession that no longer exists.

However, the prime reason DL pilots have had to fight DL management in more recent years is because DL management is simply so bad. When DL had quality leadership that actually wanted DL to succeed, the pilots were more than willing to help the company. But when DL is run by sleazy, carpetbaggers it's no surprise that the pilots become antagonistic.

Even the current management team is still questionable. The primary reason why DL is asking for this round of concessions is because the recovery plan launched in 2004 was a failure.
 
flydeltasjets
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2001 4:14 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:23 am

Apodino,

While we never refused to fly any jet, we did make a huge mistake in allowing mgt to fly them elsewhere. In short, we didn't refuse to fly them, but we didn't fight hard enough to get them. We sold our scope for a few extra dollars on bigger airplanes, one of ALPA's greatest failures IMO.

For the rest, many of whom take great pleasure in bashing DALPA. Delta lost $300 million dollars in JAN ALONE! In other words, if we give them the full amount, they will burn through it in under two months. Yet somehow the losses are our fault? Delta mgt has burned through 12 BILLION dollars in losses in the last five years. We could have given leo quadruple the concession he wanted, and we still would have lost money. We could work for FREE, and still be less profitable than LUV! Yet many of you continue to parrot the notion that it is our pilots, not our mgt who drove this once great company into bk.

Our pilots did not buy back 2.5 billion dollars of now worthless stock.
Our pilots did not sell our fuel hedges, costing us billions in extra fuel costs.
Our pilots did not flood the marketand dilute our product with high CASM rjs.
Our pilots did not award themselves bonuses based on cash on hand then run up our debt to unsustainable levels to falsely inflate that cash and steal millions in unearned bonuses.
Our pilots did not allow LCCs to be born right in our back yard, ignoring the threat until it was too late.
Our pilots have not managed this airline to one of the lowest RASMs in the industry.
Our pilots did not take the best gift an airline mgt team can have, a largely non-unionized, happy, proud, and cooperative workforce and ruin it.
Our pilots did not abandon a great O&D market like LAX after buying it with Western.
Our pilots did not spend a fortune ramping up Song then pulling it down, when the money could have been better spent fixing the mainline product.
Our pilots did not ruin a corporate culture by treating employees like liabilities instead of valued assets.

I could go on. And I could list many mistakes the DALPA has made (and I do so at many union meetings). But the fact remains that mgt mistakes have cost this company FAR more than anything ALPA has ever done. And I am tired of taking the blame for, and paying for their failures.

I hope for a settlement. I don't want to strike. I stand ready to help the company, as we have done in 50 side letters since 2001. However, I'll say it again. We will not work without a contract. And while Bush can delay a strike, he cannot stop one indefinately. This is not Poland, and we are not dockworkers at the Gdansk shipyards.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:49 am

Flydeltasjets,
I appreciate your honesty in recognizing that ALPA is out of touch.

I have never said DL mgmt has not made many mistakes but I'll address a few:

stock buy backs- most companies have done it although I do not think it is a wise investment, particuarly in highly cylical industries. keep in mind, however, that DL was investing record amounts of money in the business in the 90s when the stock buybacks occurred. DL employees were very well paid. It is hard to argue that there was a whole lot more that could be reasonably done w/ the money. And, like it or not, public companies are owned by stockholders who want their value maximized - not yours.

Song - it's easy to shoot down Song now that it's gone. I personally wasn't ever a huge fan of the strategy but it did help to maintain DL's market share. Looking at US, DL has done a far better job of maintaining its presence in key NE markets and Song is part of the reason. Even B6 is showing evidence that they cannot keep up the competitive level and the glut of seats they have forced on DL, even though B6 has much lower costs.

RJs - while I don't expect to find too many pilots who will praise an RJ, the reality is that DL recognized their value and used them to build a very viable route network using them. Even today, DL has opened dozens of new routes w/ RJs while other carriers watch their market share drop. The role of the RJ is evolving but in any business, having resources is a good thing. Not using them smartly is another. No one w/ real knowledge has ever said DL has not won handsomely because of having RJs.

LAX - I wish DL had not pulled back out west but if you remember, it wasn't long after DL/WA that the east coast started melting down. DL made the decision to focus on its core markets on the east coast. They outlived Eastern and have largely kept LCCs in a reasonable sized box, something few other airlines have done. With the exception of JFK, DL is the dominant airline in every one of its key markets where it competes w/ LCCs. Now that the west has better revenue performance than the east, it is very possible that DL will ramp up its presence in LAX and the west again. It will be a great day when it happens.

THey had no choice but to sell the hedges because DL didn't have the credit rating to maintain them. Remember that DL's losses were mounting at the same time the pilots were digging in their heels about helping out. Standard and Poors was very wise in letting the investment world know that DL securities were getting riskier and riskier - which meant that buying and holding hedges was no longer an option.

I'm not entirely convinced that the Delta Spirit has been as destroyed as you make it out to be. No one likes pay cuts but DL has a better chance of turning things around than many other airlines. The best thing DL can offer its employees is a future - and I believe they will do it very well. In just six months from now, the world will look very different than it does now. The cutting is not over but it is coming to an end.

What I cannot defend -
the Mullin era pension protections, executive compensation etc. It will never be appropriate in an industry where success or failure is a very narrow line.

I will have more to write this week but I encourage you to hang on. If the pilots do not do something irrational in the next few months, DL will turn around and you will have a future. There is alot of rebuilding to occur. The market has changed. DL might have been slow to address it but they are executing the biggest strategy change in aviation history - and perhaps among any business of its size. DL was once very profitable the way it once operated. Times have changed and they recognize the strategy has to change. Change takes time and is painful but the future for you will be worth it. Don't give up.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
While we never refused to fly any jet, we did make a huge mistake in allowing mgt to fly them elsewhere. In short, we didn't refuse to fly them, but we didn't fight hard enough to get them. We sold our scope for a few extra dollars on bigger airplanes, one of ALPA's greatest failures IMO.

BULLSH!T!!! DL pilots have never wanted to fly the CRJ's. It was offered and they refuted. The same with the E-170. DL wanted to buy them and offer them to mainline and mainline told them to shove it, so DL had Republic buy some and use their pilots. Your loss, their gain.

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
Our pilots did not sell our fuel hedges, costing us billions in extra fuel costs.

But we are hedged for 27% of operations for February. In case your not familiar with it(as a pilot, I'm sure you aren't), our previous hedges weren't exactly gold plated anyway.

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
Our pilots did not take the best gift an airline mgt team can have, a largely non-unionized, happy, proud, and cooperative workforce and ruin it.

You didn't? Well, then I guess YOU weren't here during Contract 2000, then. If you were, then you would know just how well YOU pilots ostracized yourself from the rest of the Delta family. No one else at DL would give 2 pennies if the pilots needed it. By pulling the crap you pulled during that winter, planning to show management something, but what did you do. All you did was ruin's peoples holidays and leave your fellow employee's hanging in the breeze to take the fall for YOUR actions(or lack thereof). Not to mention drive salary paying customers away from DL, therefore hurting your attempt at getting any future pay. And let's see what happened in the end? YOU got your raise, only to have it sliced and diced in BK later to less than what it could have been, and where is the management that you were "trying" to show up? Oh yea, they are sitting on their golden parachutes, laughing right in your face. Talk about bad karma! Now, I would think that BINDING ARBITRATION would mean that if the pilots were to strike, it would be illegal, but in case I'm not right, I can say that if you strike, I sure hope you have a backup plan, as your flying career will be over. Only commuter airlines are hiring(at 4 times less than what you make!) and even then, no one is gonna touch you with a 10 foot pole knowing that you are one of those "Delta" guys that drove the company into the ground. Don't believe me? Look around, how many Eastern guys are still flying? Few to none. I rest my case. So I sure hope your Mary Kay and ebay businesses are gearing up, cause thats what your gonna have to turn to.



Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
Our pilots did not ruin a corporate culture by treating employees like liabilities instead of valued assets.

In regards to this statement and my previous reply, if that isn't the black calling the kettle pot.  sarcastic 


The truth hurts, don't it?



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5514
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
It is hard to argue that there was a whole lot more that could be reasonably done w/ the money.

Maybe pay down the debt DL was rapidly accumulating in the late 90's. Just a suggestion.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
I personally wasn't ever a huge fan of the strategy but it did help to maintain DL's market share.

DL has lost market share in BOS, MCO, TPA and FLL....all of which were big Song markets.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
RJs - while I don't expect to find too many pilots who will praise an RJ, the reality is that DL recognized their value and used them to build a very viable route network using them.

If the RJ's were so viable, why did the hubs with the highest percentage of RJ flights fair the worst? DFW became mostly RJ's and was shut-down. CVG is mostly RJ's and has taken huge cuts.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
With the exception of JFK, DL is the dominant airline in every one of its key markets where it competes w/ LCCs.

Except BOS, MCO, TPA, RDU and CMH. DL is dominant in none of them...though they are still key markets in the DL network.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
Only commuter airlines are hiring

I guess Southwest and Continental are commuter airlines since both are hiring.  Yeah sure

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
Look around, how many Eastern guys are still flying?

Actually, most of the Eastern guys found jobs in the airline industry. They're spread all around, but they are there. Many went to LCC's...Airtran in particular has quite a few.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:51 am

Of the legacy airlines, DL is the largest carrier in every one of the cities you list, Fly PNS and DL is still the dominant airline in every Florida city except MIA and most recently MIA which they chose to cede to MCO. However, DL is so large in MCO that the average person doesn't know that DL carries a few thousand people per month less than WN. DL has done a commendable job of holding onto market share.

The RJs helped push back the date when CVG and DFW had to be cut more severely. The point is that the RJs maintained DL's network and provided the connecting base until a larger network reorg could be accomplished. The fundamentals of carrying connecting traffic have indeed changed but DL has the ability to serve more markets than any other airline.

Fly PNS, I notice that unlike your brother, you aren't willing to admit that DL's pilots have problems of their own - including a deplorable sick time problem. Sign up for a 12 step program, admit you have a problem, and get on the road to recovery. Continuing to blame everyone else for what's wrong while refusing to take responsibility for your actions only results in your personal destruction. Thankfully, there are more pilots like Flydeltasjets than you. No one said that any party is faultless but continuing to deny your personal responsibility is suicidal. When the doctor tells you that you have cancer, get treatment instead of yelling at God for your misfortune. Right now you have a sick time problem that is solely of your causing. Management has nothing to do with your choice to call in sick. Fix it.

[Edited 2006-03-06 02:55:10]
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:58 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
I could go on. And I could list many mistakes the DALPA has made (and I do so at many union meetings). But the fact remains that mgt mistakes have cost this company FAR more than anything ALPA has ever done. And I am tired of taking the blame for, and paying for their failures.

I hope for a settlement. I don't want to strike. I stand ready to help the company, as we have done in 50 side letters since 2001. However, I'll say it again. We will not work without a contract. And while Bush can delay a strike, he cannot stop one indefinately. This is not Poland, and we are not dockworkers at the Gdansk shipyards.

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were my brother. He said almost the same things to me tonight.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
It is hard to argue that there was a whole lot more that could be reasonably done w/ the money. And, like it or not, public companies are owned by stockholders who want their value maximized - not yours.

And partially due to the greed of the stockholders, DL is in extremis. And they want the employees to suffer for the mistakes THEY made.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 42):
I'm not entirely convinced that the Delta Spirit has been as destroyed as you make it out to be.

Are you a DL employee? If not, how would you know?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:06 am

Yea its gonna be a fun next few weeks. Even though we are non union (ramp rats) I support the pilots and ALPA in whatever they do. If they go, I wont work another mainline aircraft. Someone has to stand up to upper level airline management and put your foot down. They cut the pay across the board by sometimes up to 60% and then wat to cut more benefits and retirements, come on. We paid upwards of $50-60k alone on flight training, PLUS college and other flying expenses and they want us to make the same as an off the street bus driver. Thats rediculous. Power to the pilots. Hold fast ALPA.

ATCT
Trikes are for kids!
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:10 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 47):
Even though we are non union (ramp rats) I support the pilots and ALPA in whatever they do.



Quoting ATCT (Reply 47):
We paid upwards of $50-60k alone on flight training, PLUS college and other flying expenses and they want us to make the same as an off the street bus driver

Huh?

So are you a ramp rat, or a pilot?

Or a pilot pretending to be a ramp rat?  Wink

Nice try.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:47 pm

RE: Delta, Pilots Headed To Arbitration

Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting Flydeltasjets (Reply 41):
Our pilots did not buy back 2.5 billion dollars of now worthless stock.
Our pilots did not sell our fuel hedges, costing us billions in extra fuel costs.
Our pilots did not flood the marketand dilute our product with high CASM rjs.
Our pilots did not award themselves bonuses based on cash on hand then run up our debt to unsustainable levels to falsely inflate that cash and steal millions in unearned bonuses.
Our pilots did not allow LCCs to be born right in our back yard, ignoring the threat until it was too late.
Our pilots have not managed this airline to one of the lowest RASMs in the industry.
Our pilots did not take the best gift an airline mgt team can have, a largely non-unionized, happy, proud, and cooperative workforce and ruin it.
Our pilots did not abandon a great O&D market like LAX after buying it with Western.
Our pilots did not spend a fortune ramping up Song then pulling it down, when the money could have been better spent fixing the mainline product.
Our pilots did not ruin a corporate culture by treating employees like liabilities instead of valued assets.

I could go on.

Excellent post.... I left DL back in the 7.5 days when I saw what DL was capable of with their employees.... I did not believe it at first and I guess I missed a drink of the cool aid one day .... but I escaped and have been very happy not having to live on sub standard wages...

But I hope DL can get it together.... I have many friends who are still drinking the cool aid..... In my opinion.... there is a pilot and us attitude at DL.... and that will be very hard for anyone to work around.... and ultimately the hole DL management has dug itself into may be too deep to climb out of....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!

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