Largest Country With No/efficient Flag Carrier?

MD11junkie · Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 49):
I do not know the local legal situations but it seems to me from observation that some countries - Germany and Switzerland being examples - require all aircraft registered in those countries to carry the national flag. Other countries - the UK and the USA are examples - apparently do not.

Those planes are being tested in Airbus' facility at HAM before delivery to BA. All BA planes are UK registered, as far as I know.

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Mexico - Aeromexico

And Mexicana de Aviación (MX)

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Venezuela - VIASA

No longer exists. No Santa Barbara is taking that place, but soon CONVIASA will take the role as the venezuelan flag carrier

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Ecuador - Equatoriana

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Peru - Faucett

Both no longer exist. Ecuatoriana de aviación was absorved by VASP and then sold to LAN.
Perú currently has no "official" flag carrier. But other than Faucett, AeroPerú was it's flag carrier. Now, LAN Perú says its the official flag carrier of the country and the government refuses to recognize it like that. Aerolíneas del Perú is soon to start operations and the Peruvian government will hold 15% of the shares.

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Argentina - Aerolineas Argentina

It's Aerolíneas Argentinas. Not your fault, but second time I've seen this error.

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Soviet Union - Aeroflot

You mean Russia, right? Wink

Cheers!

Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

vv701 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 50):
Those planes are being tested in Airbus' facility at HAM before delivery to BA. All BA planes are UK registered, as far as I know.

Sorry. I thought this is what I said:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 49):
all Airbus aircraft built at Hamburg have therefore been German flag carriers while carrying their test registration

aer · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 48):
In Guatemala however, Tikal tried to become the flag carrier, but fierce competition of TACA didn't let them grow... too sad!!!

Actually Tikal is the Guatemalan flag carrier. When they started opps to MEX the government gave them that designation so they could fly there due to reciptrocity, since Aviateca doesn't exist any more.

SA006 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Chad, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Benin, Togo, Central African Republic, Congo-Brazzaville - Air Afrique

I have to disagree here Smile

. Senegal have a national airline , Air Senegal International. Tchad has Toumai Air Tchad , Benin has Air Benin , Mauritania has Air Mauritanee. I'm not sure if these airlines are private or not or if they count as flag carriers for their respective countries.

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Nigeria - Nigeria Airways

Nigeria Airways doesn't exist anymore. Nigeria is without a national airline since they have so many small private companies flying around. There is no set , main airline in Nigeria that operates the bulk of traffic in/out of Nigeria.

-SA006

anthsaun · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
A list:

Canada - Air Canada (formerly Trans-Canada Airlines)
USA - Pan Am
Mexico - Aeromexico
Cuba - Cubana
Jamaica - Air Jamaica
Trinidad & Tobago - BWIA
Bahamas - Bahamasair
Netherlands Antilles - ALM
Guatemala - Aviateca
El Salvador - TACA
Honduras - SAHSA
Nicaragua - LANICA
Costa Rica - LACSA
Panama - COPA

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 50):
Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Mexico - Aeromexico

And Mexicana de Aviación (MX)

Mexicana is the oldest and carries more international pax than Aeromexico. Even MX has more international routes than AM. Thought, AM has more domestic routes than MX.

Vasu · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting SR100 (Reply 42):
Are they true British flag carrier serving UK well - or are they "just" English flag carriers?

Good point, but I reckon it's only the same as Aeroflot serving tons of intl destinations from Moscow and hardly anything from the rest of Russia! (equivalent in size to the rest of Europe!!)

Quoting BCAL (Reply 44):
BA was thinking of dropping "British" from its name

What would it be called...? "Airways"?!

BCAL · Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 55):
What would it be called...? "Airways"?!

Who knows what BA management was then considering!

keego · Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 18):
England = Virgin Atlantic

Virgin is a privatly owned airline. can it still be a flag carrier. I tought flag carriers were government owned.

[Edited 2006-03-06 20:44:52]

bond007 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Keego (Reply 57):
Virgin is a privatly owned airline therefore not a flag carrier.

This thread is really going nowhere...and has done since the start.

It appears there really is no such thing as ONE flag airline for a country (might have been historically).

In the USA it has nothing to do with being privately owned...just that it's a US owned airline and is certified...therefore all US airlines.

Jimbo

rossbaku · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:16 am

Azerbaijan - AZAL J2.

They serve the country reasonably well (Nakhchivan, Ganja etc. all served)

RossBaku Silly

smokescreen · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 54):
Mexicana is the oldest and carries more international pax than Aeromexico. Even MX has more international routes than AM. Thought, AM has more domestic routes than MX.

I picked AM because historically (IMHO any flag carrier discussion is historical, because the term is almost meaningless today) it has had more "prestige" long-haul int'l routes, specifically European ones.

Quoting SA006 (Reply 53):
I have to disagree here . Senegal have a national airline , Air Senegal International. Tchad has Toumai Air Tchad , Benin has Air Benin , Mauritania has Air Mauritanee. I'm not sure if these airlines are private or not or if they count as flag carriers for their respective countries.

Thanks - I was unaware of those. I assume they have risen out of the ashes of Air Afrique since it went under?

Thanks to all who vetted my list - I should have been clearer that in many cases I was listing airlines (and occasionally countries) which no longer exist. Oh, and thanks MD11junkie for busting me about AR - I know better than that!

antoniemey · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 38):
As such, many airlines choose to paint the flag of their country on the exterior and may be termed as 'flag carrier' of that nation, although there is no requirement (to the best of my knowledge) in civil avaition, that an airline display the flag of its country of regn.....

I think it might be a requirement for US registered air carriers to put the US flag on their planes. Certainly they ALL do it as far as I've seen.

LH455 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Flying Belgian (Reply 45):
In D.R Congo they have one private carrier, Hewa Bora. They mainly fly overseas to either Brussels and JNB.

But it's not the flag carrier and DR Congo doesn't have any, depsite the fact that Kinshasa is a one of the most populated city in Africa.

Is Bravo Congo's new "flag" carrier despite the fact it's based in Spain? Or is that just for charter flights and not scheduled service?

mainMAN · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
My understanding of the term "flag carrier" is that it dates back to the days of governmental control or regulation - either the state-owned carrier or one designated by the government would "fly the flag" on international routes. Nowadays the term is almost completely meaningless, except for Branson marketing purposes.

Quoting Keego (Reply 57):
I tought flag carriers were government owned.

My thoughts exactly; I thought it was a reference to government ownership, from the days when most countries had a nationalised airline (except the USA?)

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 58):
This thread is really going nowhere...and has done since the start.

Ok, it was interesting though.

BA84 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:48 am

Here's the definition of Flag Carrier, courtesy of HS748:

Clearly you don't understand the definition of flag carrier. A flag carrier is an airline designated by its home country to have traffic rights in a bilateral agreement. Painting a flag on an aircraft doesn't make the airline a flag carrier!

SWISSER · Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 41):
Hmmm....I don't know whether to consider Belgium a "large" country or not and what has become of Sabena as of late, but I don't think Belgium has much of a "flag carrier" ever since Sabena went belly up.

Agreed...
Just compare destinations with SNBA and SN in Africa,
SN operated;
Casablanca
Sal
Dakar
Banjul
Bamako
Conakry
Freetown
Abidjan
Lome
Lagos
Cotonou
Ouagadougou
Douala
Yaounde
Kinchasa
Entebbe
Nairobi
Bujumbura
Luanda
and last but not least;
Johannesburg

That's what I call a flag carrier intead of what we have now...
SN even had a direct connection to Dallas...

But off course Belgium(Sabena) is certainly not big!(only in Africa once! Wink

)

rootsair · Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:02 am

Peru

Sudan

Mongolia

LPLAspotter · Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 65):
SN operated;
Casablanca
Sal
Dakar
Banjul
Bamako
Conakry
Freetown
Abidjan
Lome
Lagos
Cotonou
Ouagadougou
Douala
Yaounde
Kinchasa
Entebbe
Nairobi
Bujumbura
Luanda
and last but not least;
Johannesburg

Libreville too!
LPLAspotter

skyhigh777 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:33 am

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Paraguay. I know it's not a huge country, but it's a decent size with a population of almost 6 million people. Paraguay used to have LAP (Lineas Aereas Paraguayas) but that went under sometime in the early 90's I believe. Now, Paraguay does not have an official airline to really call its own. No airline that represents the country or carrries its flag. Really, only TAM can be considered on of Paraguays more major airlines seeing as how it hires Paraguayan FA's and pilots. AA always had flight crews from Chile and Peru. HopefulLy, Paraguay can have it's own airline sometime in the future again. It's a great country!

HikesWithEyes · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting 737-990 (Reply 30):
Peru comes to mind as its major airlines are subsidiaries of foreign airlines

exFATboy · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 44):
Branson, as is cutomary to gain publicity at other's expense, seized on the opportunity and promptly stated that Virgin planes would fly the flag for Britain.

Well, I'd rephrase that as "Branson, who saw an opportunity to jump on an incredibly stupid decision by BA management..." Big grin

For the United States, there is actually a definition of "flag carrier" under the Fly America Act, at least for the purpose of government travel.

Lostintime · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:52 am

Here is a list of National Airlines from answers.com which I think is what the topic starter was referring to. Plus here is a definition that they give to the term flag carrier

CPH757 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 35):
Well in the US it's pretty much every US airline:

"U.S. Flag Air Carrier. The term "U.S. flag air carrier" means an air carrier holding a certificate under section 401 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958 (49 U.S.C. App. 1371)."

I think that covers all the legacies and some...

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 21):
The USA has a lot of flag carriers, this is an oficial designation given by i dont know who, but some government agency. I believe the latest airline to apply and get it was Frontier with the addition of a route to ANC, which required them to be a flag carrier, due to flying over Canada and international airspace.

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 32):
Also, which one of these airlines do not represent the U.S. well (whatever MD90fan meant when he said that)??
-American,
-Delta
-United
-Continental
-Northwest
-US Airways

But the topic is looking for an efficient flag carrier, which is non-existing in the US, at least among the legacies Smile

Here in Scandinavia we have a three-flag carrier. But if the pilots continue to whine as they do these days, it will soon be reduced to one - the Finnish flag wink

AA777 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 32):
Also, which one of these airlines do not represent the U.S. well (whatever MD90fan meant when he said that)??
-American,
-Delta
-United
-Continental
-Northwest
-US Airways

None of these airlines REPRESENT the USA as a Nation. They operate under US Registration, but they do not represent the United States. You dont see President Bush Flying on a AA aircraft, even though it says "American" on the side. Thus, I say the USA is the largest nation without a flag carrier....

-AA777

SWISSER · Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting LPLAspotter (Reply 67):
Libreville too!

not on own metal Wink

sabenapilot · Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 65):
Sabena operated;
Casablanca
Sal
Dakar
Banjul
Bamako
Conakry
Freetown
Abidjan
Lome
Lagos
Cotonou
Ouagadougou
Douala
Yaounde
Kinchasa
Entebbe
Nairobi
Bujumbura
Luanda
and last but not least;
Johannesburg

Whereas SN now operates:
Casablanca
Dakar
Banjul
Conakry
Freetown
Abidjan
Douala
Yaounde
Kinshasa
Entebbe
Nairobi
Luanda
Monrovia
Kigali

so that's not that bad I'd say...

Anyway, legally speaking SN Brussels Airlines is the Belgian designated carrier in all bilateral agreements, so it is the flag carrier of Belgium.

SWISSER · Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 75):
Anyway, legally speaking SN Brussels Airlines is the Belgian designated carrier in all bilateral agreements, so it is the flag carrier of Belgium.

Off course SN Brussels Airlines is the flag carrier,
and indeed the current structure in Africa is still ok, but we had always 6 planes ready for Africa OPS under the old regime, now only 3...
so inevitably the frequency is affected.
The biggest miss are the America and Asia routes...
We have code shares all over the place, but still.(Belgians don't operate these!)

we lost (on own metal);
Kennedy
Newark
Boston
Montreal
Dallas
Chicago
Atlanta
Washington
Sao Paulo
Chennai
Tokyo

(Not to say some where really ludicrous for SN, like IAD! My mother works for UA in BRU and unfortunatly SN had no chance at all at this Star hub.)

We could at least kept the Tokyo and the Dallas for further connection on AA since they lost (or are losing) LX as a quite important strategic partner in ZRH.
still keeping fingers crossed somehow! SN would be the best replacement for AA, not to mention the current partnership AA/SN is very good!
I hear too there is a potential market for a Tokyo route thanks to interest from Toyota Europe and tourism.

BTW Sabenapilot,
where are you employed right now?

And sorry for the little Hi-jack of the thread guys...
indeed the therm inneficient flag carrier is not applicable for SN Brussels Airlines, the point was more this is 1/4 of the original SN's structure.

[Edited 2006-03-07 03:43:08]

tope98 · Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:18 pm

I agree with USA. and even tough its not that big, sadly Venezuela.

antoniemey · Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 72):
But the topic is looking for an efficient flag carrier, which is non-existing in the US, at least among the legacies Smile

CO seems pretty darned efficient compared to most of the others...

navega · Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:31 am

Mexico has Mexicana as its flag carrier not Aeromexico.

FlyDeltaJets · Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:40 am

I thought flag carriers were just the country that the airline is affliated with.

CP744 · Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 15):
Quoting CP744 (Reply 6):
Largest "Country" without a "flag" carrier..........Canada

HUH???

Air C-A-N-A-D-A??

Elaborate please?

Sure!..... Reading the original post.

Quoting MD90fan (Thread starter):
What is the largest carrier with no flag carrier or without one that represents the country?

I assume that he meant largest "country" with no flag carrier..... Canada is a fairly large "country". AC since privatization certainly is not a flag carrier any longer. WestJet is certainly not a "flag" carrier. Canjet? First Air? Canadian North? North Caribou?.... well... you get my meaning..... If having the Maple Leaf affixed to the fuselage is grounds for being called a flag carrier... well then, I suppose every airline in Canada is a "flag" carrier.

Quoting MD90fan (Thread starter):
(Like one that doesnt serve the country well)

IMHO.... AC does not "serve" the entire country well...... they do a reasonably job in Central Canada... but quite honestly, provide rather pathetic service in the east and west. And no service to the North. Granted this is driven by profit, never the less, service is service.

Westjet.... yeah right! That's like asking if Southwest provides service to the entire US.

All in all, the days of an air carrier providing "service" to an entire nation is done.... with the exception of perhaps some smaller nations. Or nations that are not as driven be stockholders.

Cheers,

Bill

irelayer · Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:40 am

Just taking industrialized countries, it seems Italy and Greece have the crappiest flag carriers (Alitalia and Olympic)...and with Olympic shutting down entirely (true?) seems like Greece doesn't even have that anymore. Also Switzerland is again about to be without a "bona-fide" flag carrier when SI is absorbed by LH.

-IR

rdwelch · Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 22):
Easy Australia - QF is fricking hopeless & incredibly inefficient & the only way to beocme efficeint is to have a big fight with the unions.

Seems QF is killing your tourism in Australia. Geeze, the next thing you know the Chinese will be coming in an taking over the country. bigthumbsup

Gus

MTY2GVA · Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:47 pm

Like it or not AM is larger than MX if MX has more passengers then AM is misusing its fleet . Even do MX is older ( dont get me wrong I love both). But for the world AM is more the flag carrier than MX. AM flies to international destinations with more exposure than MX. Im talking about CDG MAD GRU SCL ATL . And the top US destinations like LAX JFK MIA are served by both.

TACAA320 · Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Thread starter):
What is the largest carrier with no flag carrier or without one that represents the country?

Paraguay.

MD11junkie · Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 85):
Paraguay.

Peru is bigger than Paraguay. Smile

Cheers!

Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

TACAA320 · Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 86):
Peru is bigger than Paraguay.

Agreed. But Paraguay still don't have a flag carrier.

MD11junkie · Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 87):
Agreed. But Paraguay still don't have a flag carrier.

I didn't say they did. In fact, TAM Mercosur is using LAP's routes and codes. Unfortunately they've ceased to exist. I remember those LONG 737-200 flights - they were just hilarious (and unbareable, I've been told).

Cheers! wave

Gastón - The MD11 Junkie

ucunnn · Thu Mar 09, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting MTY2GVA (Reply 84):
Like it or not AM is larger than MX if MX has more passengers then AM is misusing its fleet . Even do MX is older ( dont get me wrong I love both). But for the world AM is more the flag carrier than MX. AM flies to international destinations with more exposure than MX. Im talking about CDG MAD GRU SCL ATL . And the top US destinations like LAX JFK MIA are served by both.

Well you forget that for most canadians, and americans MX is the flag carreir.. Just think about MX at LAX and the bay area for real, plus ORD where MX is the real thing.. CCS, BOG, EZE i guess carriers more than SCL. And GUA SAL, HAV, etc. I know Europe is a weak part now, but it wont be for much longer ( i am talking about months or one or two years..you will see...first in China).

[Edited 2006-03-08 19:32:28]

anthsaun · Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting MTY2GVA (Reply 84):
Like it or not AM is larger than MX if MX has more passengers then AM is misusing its fleet . Even do MX is older ( dont get me wrong I love both). But for the world AM is more the flag carrier than MX. AM flies to international destinations with more exposure than MX. Im talking about CDG MAD GRU SCL ATL . And the top US destinations like LAX JFK MIA are served by both.

MX has a better and larger international market than AM.

Quoting Ucunnn (Reply 89):
Well you forget that for most canadians, and americans MX is the flag carreir.. Just think about MX at LAX and the bay area for real, plus ORD where MX is the real thing.. CCS, BOG, EZE i guess carriers more than SCL. And GUA SAL, HAV, etc. I know Europe is a weak part now, but it wont be for much longer ( i am talking about months or one or two years..you will see...first in China).

Forgot to say that MX is a money maker.

I think both deserve to be Mexico's flag carrier, but MX portraits Mexico's culture, service and quality even better than AM.

By the way... MAD & CDG are not the whole world. And the ATL route is just because DL.

EurostarVA · Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:24 pm

SA006,

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 54):
Nigeria is without a national airline since they have so many small private companies flying around

That is old information you have there.

Nigeria has designated Virgin Nigeria as its flag carrier, with that airline flying to over 8 destinations from Lagos now (including JNB, LGW, and DXB).

The airline is 100% privately owned, with Nigerian investors holding the majority while the rest is held by Virgin Group.

RICARIZA · Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 16):
I believe Santa Barbara was named Venezuela's flag carrier.

Venezuela also has Aeropostal and state owned Conviasa, I don't know which would be the "flag carrier".

Quoting 737-990 (Reply 30):
, Peru comes to mind as its major airlines are subsidiaries of foreign airlines (TACA Peru and LAN Peru

I agree with your thoughts. Same case with Ecuador. (LanEcuador)

Quoting Smokescreen (Reply 46):
Venezuela - VIASA
Ecuador - Equatoriana
Peru - Faucett

Neither exists anymore.

In this part of the world I will say countries (small or big) without a carrier:

1-Haiti
2-Dominican Republic
3-Paraguay
4-Belize
5-Should we include Puerto Rico? or consider AA its flag carrier?

And with airlines but not particulary as a "flag carrier":

4-Peru (They have LANPeru and Taca and others smaller)
5-Ecuador (They have LANEcuador and others smaller)
6-Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala and Costa Rica (They all became TACA)

antoniemey · Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 92):
5-Should we include Puerto Rico? or consider AA its flag carrier?

Puerto Rico isn't it's own country, it's a Commonwealth (Or territory) of the USA. THey were given the chance to decide whether to become a full state, an independent nation, or stay as they are around 2000-ish or slightly before. They chose to stay with the status Quo.

heisan67 · Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting CPH757 (Reply 72):
Here in Scandinavia we have a three-flag carrier. But if the pilots continue to whine as they do these days, it will soon be reduced to one - the Finnish flag

I belive the German flag is more likely Wink

bmacleod · Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:14 am

The USA is clearly the winner of this topic. However you'd think AA would be the flag carrier from its name and if two or more majors shut down which looks like a strong possibility, it just may happen......

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