http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/pr...d=PJGIN1XPFFE0XEAJJM3U1C2QBFFT4VMD

Both a brochure and video. Looks nice.

While these are extremely nice, why doesn't AA finish what projects they had already taken on in their 763 program.... It is my understanding that they were going to place PTV's in the Y cabin but due to cash issues they chose to stop this mid-installment....no? I am not one to complain about PTV's and such but I think that referbs that were stopped should be completed before starting a new referb in the C cabin.

Matt

The new cabin looks great. Can't wait to fly on one!

Looks like 777 style interior (see the bins).

It's about time...


FB.

6 across on the 767 is going to be a tight squeeze. 2-1-2 would have been better like CO does. I wish DL would do it as well since the seats up front are only a half inch more in width.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 4): 2-1-2 would have been better like CO does.

But the space has to come from somewhere. AA's 767s have always had 2-2-2 in J. If AA were to go to 2-1-2, it might give people a bit more width room in each seat, but it would force AA to either lose a row at the back or cut a row into Y, just to stay even on J capacity. In addition, I don't think that seat width is that much of an issue for most people. Sure, everyone would like more width room, but I doubt that many people would notice the few inches they might be missing. Who knows though, maybe I'm wrong!

Did anyone notice the detachable PTV screens? It looks similar to the DigiE system some airlines are using now.

[Edited 2006-03-09 19:12:08]

Looks hsarp, might have to give AA another chance soon.

YOWza

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5): But the space has to come from somewhere.

No arguing with you that the space would have to come from somewhere.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5): AA's 767s have always had 2-2-2 in J

Change is inevitable. It may be time to move the cheese.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5): If AA were to go to 2-1-2, it might give people a bit more width room in each seat, but it would force AA to either lose a row at the back or cut a row into Y, just to stay even on J capacity.

But if you give customers a reason to purchase a better product they could pay more for said product to make up the revenue for the lost seats. Those costs spread across all cabins throughout the plane wouldn't be a big increase in cost.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5): In addition, I don't think that seat width is that much of an issue for most people. Sure, everyone would like more width room, but I doubt that many people would notice the few inches they might be missing.

Now I'm speaking from someone who isn't familiar with the J Class product that AA has on the 777 but...DL has BizElite across the 777 and the 767 line. The seats in the 767 are only half an inch wider than those in Steerage. Believe me, you notice the difference compared to the IIRC 21" or 22" width on the 777 they fly. It makes a big difference in sleeping and a lot of folks flying in J want that beauty rest.

CO's BizFirst product may have different seat styles across the 757, 767, and 777 but they all have comparable width. Maybe the 757 is missing some of the bells and whistles of the other two but it is a wide enough seat to sleep in. As someone who took the 764 from NRT-GUM-HNL-IAH I can attest that the wider seat in the 2-1-2 arrangement made the trip liveable despite the stops and weird time changes. (Arriving in HNL before I left GUM was the worst one!)

I wonder how far away United is from announcing its new product. United certainly is working on one since AA is their biggest competitor on many routes.

I am glad to see AA offering up a nice new cabin. There are some nice innovations. A two piece tray table is an interesting idea that I haven't seen anywhere. The idea of sliding your seat forward though seems kind of pointness when most seats let you slide the tray table back.

Quoting Max999 (Reply 6): Did anyone notice the detachable PTV screens?

I noticed that. I don't think it is a feature however. I would find it annoying to have to find a place to put it rather than just have a huge screen on the seat back or a small screen that pivots so it is relatively close (like the current ones).

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8): Quoting Commavia (Reply 5): If AA were to go to 2-1-2, it might give people a bit more width room in each seat, but it would force AA to either lose a row at the back or cut a row into Y, just to stay even on J capacity. But if you give customers a reason to purchase a better product they could pay more for said product to make up the revenue for the lost seats. Those costs spread across all cabins throughout the plane wouldn't be a big increase in cost.

I am presuming that these lie flat seats will have a larger pitch which means fewer seats to begin with. If decrease the number of seats per aisle, then you are drastically reducing the number of seats on the plane. The fall in number of seats might be just a little bit too high.

However I do agree that people will prefer wider seats. I certainly do. I am one of those people that would pay a little more and try to get on a 777 flight. 767s in general often have worse cabin interiors than 777s. A big reason is that although they are used on high yielding transoceanic flights, the maximum flight time of a 767 is 8-10 hours compared to a 777 that might be flying 12-14 hours or even more.

Overall really very nice, but the interlocking tray table seem really cumbersome. Can you imagine the inconvenience of taking it all down when the window pax needs to get out? It also seems like the alignment of the seatback tray with the one on the arm would not match up for very long just by normal use. Everyone would always need to be very careful with it to work right, and they won't be.

THAT'S IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's ok...But, it looks the same as any other "J" class today.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8): But if you give customers a reason to purchase a better product they could pay more for said product to make up the revenue for the lost seats. Those costs spread across all cabins throughout the plane wouldn't be a big increase in cost.

This issue is not one of cost. It's about satisfying customers.

Envision this scenario: it's a Friday night in August, a businessman is flying from Phoenix to Paris on American, via DFW. He is AAdvantage Platinum, flies tens of thousands of miles on AA each year, and his upgrade easily clears on his PHX-DFW flight. Now he gets to the gate at DFW for flight 48 to CDG, a 763 with the new J cabin. Flight 48 has been retrofitted with the new layout which, using your assumption, would mean that it has 25 seats in J instead of the current 30. Of the 25 seats in the cabin, it is booked to 18, leaving 7 open seats.

Now, if you were this Platinum flying from PHX to CDG, who is about to board a flight that is nearly ten hours long, which would you rather have: a few inches wider of space, and perhaps a little more elbow and/or breathing room, and only a 28% chance of getting an upgrade, assuming your high on the priority list, or forego a few inches of elbow room, but still enjoy the new seat, along with all its new amenities, but have a 40% chance of your upgrade clearing? I would be willing to make a guess that for most people, they would rather have a beautiful new seat, with upgraded service and amenities, but forego a few inches of elbow room if it means they have a higher chance of getting an upgrade. In essence, is it better to have a big chance of having an upgraded J seat, or to have a small chance of having a really upgraded J seat?

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 1): PTV's in the Y cabin but due to cash issues they chose to stop this mid-installment....no?

No... installation never began. Eight 763s that were delivered to AA a few years ago came equipped with the storage boxes for the equipment under the pax seats, but that was it. No 763 in the AA fleet has PTVs in any cabin. Currently biz class customers get DVD players with 30 titles to chose from and Bose QC2 noise cancelling headphones.

This new j-class product will also be added to the 777 starting in 2007.

It looks a bit like the LH new J class. The LH was also designed by Recaro.
I also think this is very similiar to what LY is planning to put in its 777 and 744s.

Looks great. Which frames are getting the upgrade first? 772?

Nothing groundbreaking here in the big picture. Another lie-flat at an angle effort here.

The idea of joining the tray tables together is interesting though, as is the removable video player thing. The memory function is something I've not seen before either.

Expect BA to move the J Class bar up another notch with their product which is due to be unveiled....err when is it due to be unveilied?  

Boring.

Looks like J Class introduced by the rest of the world 5 years ago.

The tray table idea came from biz class pax... it seems often pax don't know what to do with their laptop when it comes time to eat. With this new traytable pax can just push their laptop forward and still have room for their dinner tray. Sounds good to me.

I saw a schematic drawing of the cabin and it appears the new seats will fit within the space of the old seats. Now, to accomplish this, when the seats lay flat, pax feet will actually extend under the seat in front of them, as many new biz-class designs do. To help with the width issue, the outside armrest of each seat lowers, giving each pax a little more room. Capacity will remain the same at 30 j-class seats and 182 coach seats.

The new biz class cabin will feature 777-style interiors, but that will only extend to the galley in the middle of the aircraft. In order to keep costs down, AA decided to only retrofit the aircraft in the j-class cabin. Not shown in the sneek peak is a new cross aisle to allow pax in G, H and J seats to access the lavs without going through the forward galley. This is welcome by both pax and flight attendants, but it does come at the cost of the main closet. There is still, however, a closet across from the forward lav by the cockpit.

This may sound like a dumb question...

But why are they retrofitting the 767's business class cabin, when the vast majority of passengers fly economy... surely putting some kind of investment into the Y class (PTVs or something?) would benefit more people?

The trouble is, I would have to agree with 2x2x2 on the 767. I think that noone chooses COntinental ONLY because their 767s are 2-1-2. Heck, most paying J customers probably don't know that they are 2-1-2, or even that the plane is a 767!

Still looks inferior expecially when it comes to privacy and comfort, to BA's Club world. Near lie flat beds and individual seats are much more appealing. Heading out to Europe 8-10 times a year, mostly in J class, I don't see anything there that will attract me to give it a shot. BA, then UA (especially with the upgrades to FC   )

Quoting Amirs (Reply 14): It looks a bit like the LH new J class.

Which was the old VS J Class that have ripped out.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 12): Now, if you were this Platinum flying from PHX to CDG, who is about to board a flight that is nearly ten hours long, which would you rather have: a few inches wider of space, and perhaps a little more elbow and/or breathing room, ...... In essence, is it better to have a big chance of having an upgraded J seat, or to have a small chance of having a really upgraded J seat?

I would purchase a ticket that assures me J Class versus hoping for the upgrade. That's just me though. I would prefer the bigger seat but again that is me.

Quoting Vasu (Reply 19): But why are they retrofitting the 767's business class cabin, when the vast majority of passengers fly economy... surely putting some kind of investment into the Y class (PTVs or something?) would benefit more people?

The reason why AA is updating its cabins is not to appease the needs of the general public. It is to get more higher paying passengers which have higher margins. There is a lot more competition in business class as far as product differentiation than economy. AA has found with the failure of the More Room Throughout Coach concept that passengers in economy won't pay much more for more perks. It is the business and first class cabins where there is product differentiation that will attract passengers to AA.

I hate to say it, but honestly AA cares more about business class customers since the bottom line is what matters. However PTVs would be a good addition to all economy seats.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23): I hate to say it, but honestly AA cares more about business class customers since the bottom line is what matters.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any airline on earth that offers dual classes that doesn't care more about business class customers because, as you rightly say, they provide far more revenue per-seat.

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 16): Nothing groundbreaking here in the big picture. Another lie-flat at an angle effort here.

I was wondering the same thing. It's a big improvement in a lot of ways with a lot of interesting features, but the lack of a 180-degree lie-flat bed does not seem at first blush to be competitive, particularly as BA will be imminently unavailing its new product.

Charles, SJ

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 25): It's a big improvement in a lot of ways with a lot of interesting features, but the lack of a 180-degree lie-flat bed does not seem at first blush to be competitive, particularly as BA will be imminently unavailing its new product.

I don't think AA's primary objective was to be on-par competitive with BA or other international carriers. I think AA accepted a long time ago, as most U.S. carriers have, that it doesn't matter how good their seats are, they are never going to be as good as BA, CX, SQ, EK, etc. On the other hand, I think AA's primary objective here was more to improve their international J product to make it moderately competitive on the international stage, to the extent that they can retain and attract premium traffic in foreign markets, but not so much as to destroy attractiveness for existing frequent flyers. In order to create a J cabin with completely lie-flat seats, they would have to either cut into Y which -- in todays environment -- is not feasible, or they would have to shrink the J cabin capacity, which would make upgrading harder and infuriate premium FFs. I think what AA has done is strike a good balance, and I think this will at least bring AA's international J seats into par with its main U.S. competitors -- CO and DL.

Looks great! Thanks for sharing the link.

This looks nice, but I would still like to see the first-class seats in the 757 fleet replaced with seats similar to the MD-80 or 737. Those seats are old, beat up, and have a flat headrests. They are just plain uncomfortable for long-haul, and they are probably worse for trans-Atlantic and Hawaii flights.

Im disappointed... Its a nice improvement, but I think it should be 180 degrees because as soon as these seats are installed more and more airlines will be updating their seats. AA will remain behind the times.

AA787

As an AA Plat ( former exec  ) and someone who can sometimes end up spending WAY more time in those 763 J seats than he wants, this is a gigantic step forward.

Mind you, I don't care if BA is better. BA isn't going to get me from GRU to MIA, or DFW to SCL, or LAX-MIA. AA will.

This will be the first new J product from a US carrier in quite some time and will surpass all other US airlines' offerings on their 76x fleets (for the time being). As for the width issue, this is taken care of by the ability to lower the armrest. Currently, the 763 J seats are a paltry 18.5" wide. With the lowered armrest, the AA seats give 22". That's a HUGE difference. Also, considering the BA 76x fleet has just been dusked, the current J product will be there for a good length of time. Keep in mind that AA WILL adapt the product and make improvements for the 777 (including greater seat width). While I'd love to have true 180 degree lie flat seats, I'd rather have more seats in the cabin, and thus more upgrade opportunities and/or alternatives for times when I need to change my schedule. Even when I travel on paid J I encounter sold out J cabins from South America to North. I want as many seats as possible.

I'm quite happy that they kept the 2x2 config. I for one, loathe the D seat on CO's 76x fleet. It is too exposed and while not having a seatmate is a boon, you have much less personal space since both sides of your seat are open to the aisles. Something doesn't quite fit under the seat in front? Can't have it on the floor... it's a hazard.

[Edited 2006-03-10 04:43:43]

I'm unimpressed. Looks like the same seats CO did years ago and CO service is way better. Those seats give you wedges which are annoying and prevent sleep.

UAL777222,
To answer your question specifically about why they stopped the Y PTV and started the C class upgrade, the answer is simple. Their product was uncompetitive...even more than UAs business class seat. UAs existing C seat vs. Americans C seat is VASTLY superior. AA has obviously decided to leapfrog ahead, since UA is doing the same thing and unfortunately, in the UA vs. AA marketing wars, AA almost always wins.

The main reason they stopped the Y conversion (and this is an opinion only), is so they could fund the C class upgrade. From a return on investment perspective, it is much quicker to convert a C class cabin to the new generation seat (in this case since there are no PTV plug ins, there are no mods they have to do to the aircraft). Plus, they will fill it up with full fare paying passengers (since this product will be deployed before UA gets theirs done...in this respect, we don't even know what UA is doing yet). Score one for AA; once again they have made "vaporware" and have got passengers jazzed (and competitors concerned). They have even figured out how to get a six across configuration to work with a 22 in wide seat. I am familiar with the firm in San Francisco who does AAs concept work on their interiors and once again, it looks like they have a winner. Since AA does not have an F product on the Atlantic anymore (except route where the 777 is deployed), they have really leaped ahead of all the US competitors.

More than UA's response, it will be interesting to see how Delta will respond; since they have practically an all 767 fleet across the Atlantic and their BusinessElite is so far behind the competition. Continental will have to deploy their 777 seat on the 767; so they will likely stay with five across and a more hybrid in-flight product than AAs Business Class. Northwest already has bed seats in the A330; however, their product is low grade compared to what is out there in the marketplace already. It would not surprise me if they have to rethink their seating investment in another two years or so when AA starts eating them for lunch.

I am very interested to see, now that AA has come out of the closet, how UA will respond. The staggered C class seat is a very interesting (and popular) concept, as it allows for greater aisle access while maintaining the integrity of the bed seat (see EOS airlines; they operate this on their 757 all C class flights from JFK to Stansted). UA will also have to overhaul its F suite; since it is also uncompetitive with other F suite products coming on the market. In the front cabin, privacy is the key to success; since a bed is a bed. What differentiates F from C is privacy and space. Needless to say, they did very well with PS on the JFK-LAX/SFO route. I am very interested to see how creative they get with long haul international. They have issues in all cabins and they really need to spring ahead if they are going to fend off AA across the Atlantic and the Asian carriers in the Pacific. With QF starting service to San Francisco and Singapore Airlines possibly also getting into the US-Australia market, they need to move fast. While AA has the same challenge; they have come off to a pretty good start.

baw716

What I did not see advertised was laptop power; which is a BIG omission for AA, since this is a very important competitive feature.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 8): The seats in the 767 are only half an inch wider than those in Steerage.

True, the seatcushions are only half an inch wider, but there's also the center armrest. So if you measure the distance between the centerlines of the seats, it's significantly wider. That's what makes a big difference -- most people are wider across the top than the bottom -- even when you get to my age.

Not saying the 21" seats aren't nicer -- they are -- but the 767 J seats at 2x2x2 are still much nicer than sitting in steerage.

Steve

Quoting Max999 (Reply 6): Did anyone notice the detachable PTV screens? It looks similar to the DigiE system some airlines are using now.

Are they detachable screens or personal DVD players. From the picture, it looks as though the PTV is actually a DVD player sitting on the forward tray table.

This is great improvement for AA. I have to admit that I was really hoping for something different. It looks just like the J class product offered by most other intl carriers. My fingers are crossed that UA is in the process of developing a completely new concept (staggered seating?) that will raise the bar. We will see.

-J

Very nice, although like others says another lie flat seats. I can't wait to try AC new lie flat suites.

I like the lay out,very interesting seats

Looks promising!

All of AA's premium cabins have in seat power for laptops currently, I can't imagine that it would not be part of the new j-class. It just wasn't showcased in the sneek peak as they are as common place as reading lights.

AA currently operates all LHR flights with 777s. DFW-FRA, RDU-LGW and one DFW-LGW are also operated with T7s. All other trans-Atlantic routes are operated with 763s. I briefly mentioned before that these new J-class seats will also be installed on the 777s starting in 2007.

It's seems that seat width is an issue. The good news is, or at least I think it's good news, is SeatGuru has the current 767 J-class seat width at 18.5" and the sneek peak shows the new seats with a width of 22". Three and a half inches is no small gain, especially in such confined space.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 38): the sneek peak shows the new seats with a width of 22". Three and a half inches is no small gain, especially in such confined space.

Possibly this figure includes the armrests for the total width of the seat. An extra 3.5 inches on 6 seats across is a total of 21 inches. If the seats are indeed that wide and don't include the armrest then the aisles will be shrunk almost a foot in width to accomodate the seats.

Why, why, why not the 180 degree flat seats, but another airline chooses the slidey wedgy ones,

Sam

Is this really that impressive?

This only brings them up to the average level of current day J. While it is an improvement over what they've got right now, it is hardly very nice. By the time they're done with upgrading these their competition is probably going to upgrade their seats again.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 39): Possibly this figure includes the armrests for the total width of the seat. An extra 3.5 inches on 6 seats across is a total of 21 inches. If the seats are indeed that wide and don't include the armrest then the aisles will be shrunk almost a foot in width to accomodate the seats.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. Just look at the seat drawings. The aisles are very narrow. The armrests are very narrow. That's not the case with Delta's current seats, where a lot of space is wasted. Or even with American's current seats.


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The narrow Delta seats make it very uncomfortable to sleep in any side position. American is just catching up - finally. Is Delta?

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 20): Heck, most paying J customers probably don't know that they are 2-1-2, or even that the plane is a 767!

I disagree. Most people who fly C class are frequent travelers, who know what type of aircraft to get on, because they don't want to be totally screwed when they can't sleep on an overnight flight with a meeting in the morning. They know what they're traveling on.

The seat looks relatively similar to every other offering, except one thing- the "PTVs." What a joke- removable DVD players in a brand new business class?! Give me a break. I'd go one-stop with DL or CO before I touched AA. Not that I fly C internationally anyways; can't afford it.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26): don't think AA's primary objective was to be on-par competitive with BA or other international carriers. I think AA accepted a long time ago, as most U.S. carriers have, that it doesn't matter how good their seats are, they are never going to be as good as BA, CX, SQ, EK, etc.

More's the pity. The potential's there, even without the enhanced seats.

Charles, SJ

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 39): Possibly this figure includes the armrests for the total width of the seat.

I have a feeling that extra space comes into play when the outside armrest is pushed down. One of the features of the new seat is the outside armrest can be lowered to give more room... that 3.5" could easily come from that.

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 41): By the time they're done with upgrading these their competition is probably going to upgrade their seats again.

It will always be like this. The airline industry is cyclical and all the airlines play catch up to the next. One introduces a new product, then another one-ups that new product, then the next one one-ups that product. Airlines rarely stay on top when it comes to new seats... it's only good until the next introduces their new product. Now, having said that, I think there are differentiations in the "group" airlines fall in. I think most international carriers are always a step-up from US carriers... that is, US carriers compete more with each other and foreign carriers compete more with each other, in terms of product offering. Of course, they all compete for the pax.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 43): What a joke- removable DVD players

They are not removeable DVD players, rather digital entertainment centers that include movies, sitcoms and television shows, games, newspapers and magazines. All in digital format. Passengers can use them however and whenever they want, and they likely provide more entertainment options than any PTV system, all on-demand.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 45): I have a feeling that extra space comes into play when the outside armrest is pushed down. One of the features of the new seat is the outside armrest can be lowered to give more room... that 3.5" could easily come from that.

I did forget about that. SQ and VS make that same comment with their seats. They are X" wide and X+whatever more" for sleeping with the armrest down.

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 45): and they likely provide more entertainment options than any PTV system, all on-demand.

Doubtful something removeable can hold as many options as V:Port on VS or KrisWorld on SQ.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42): The aisles are very narrow. The armrests are very narrow. That's not the case with Delta's current seats, where a lot of space is wasted.

I don't see wasted space on DL. I see the middle and outside armrests that look about the same width on the new AA seats. I also see them cramming as many seats in the cabin as possible.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 42): The narrow Delta seats make it very uncomfortable to sleep in any side position.

Which I why I suggested the 2-1-2 arrangement like CO has now. I've slept in both on a 767 and CO was better for me. Who cares if you get the single seat and look like you are sitting in a baber's chair?

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 43): The seat looks relatively similar to every other offering, except one thing- the "PTVs." What a joke- removable DVD players in a brand new business class?! Give me a break. I'd go one-stop with DL or CO before I touched AA. Not that I fly C internationally anyways; can't afford it.

You need to clarify what makes removable entertainment units "a joke". I've grown fond of the DVD player/bag offered on the 767 on American. It is much better than something fixed on the armrest (like on the 777) because you can put it wherever you want. I've been given a faulty DVD player on the 767 and guess what, the flight attendant just took it away and brought me another unit. Can't do it if the unit is built in. To me portable units win.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 14): It looks a bit like the LH new J class. The LH was also designed by Recaro. I also think this is very similiar to what LY is planning to put in its 777 and 744s.

I agree 100% with you.

Pretty soon we will have people that say the AA seat is great but the LH ones is horrible because they slide down, and vice versa.

The seat looks nice. AA needs to get a new wide body.

I personally dislike 767's and prefer the A332/3.

On a side note, AA will be removing the 2 lavs in the center section in the very back of coach and adding 6 seats in their place when the 763's are receiving the new business seats and overhead bins. This will bring the coach seating capacity up to 194 and match the lav layout on the 763's we received a couple of years ago.

Regards,

AA777223ER