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HPLASOps
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Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:58 pm

I know there's a boatload of Wright Admendment threads out there, but I wanted to start one with this twist:

The plans for a new Las Vegas airport about 30 miles south in Ivanapah are moving ahead at a steady pace. Currently, LAS is a great airport with modern facilities and an unbelievable location, however it will be overcapacity very soon. The way I see it, once the new airport is finished, there won't be a lot of motivation for airlines to move their service out to the new airport, given that Vegas is a tourist market and with an adequate facility so close to the strip.

So, gang, to all those who have commented on Wright before, I'd like to get a pre-debate going, before anything has been enacted or passed. How would everyone feel about Wright-Admendment style legislation passed to protect the investment into the new facility? Would you all like to see LAS closed down? Do you think Las Vegas can support two airports? I realize it's not a perfect parallel, but there are many similarities to what Vegas may face 15 to 20 years from now to what Dallas/Ft. Worth now faces. Let the thread begin.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
The plans for a new Las Vegas airport about 30 miles south in Ivanapah are moving ahead at a steady pace.

I haven't heard any developments lately, what's moving ahead?

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
Currently, LAS is a great airport with modern facilities and an unbelievable location, however it will be overcapacity very soon.

 checkmark , The airport has plans to add a northwest wing to the D gates, which would provide 9 additional gates in mid-2008, as well as Terminal 3 in 2010 which would have it's own Parking, Baggage Claim, and Ticketing, however these projects may need to be completed sooner than they think at the current growth rate.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
The way I see it, once the new airport is finished, there won't be a lot of motivation for airlines to move their service out to the new airport, given that Vegas is a tourist market and with an adequate facility so close to the strip.

That's very true, however by 2017 (supposedly it's going to be that long but there is no way), there will most likely be more homes down that way and traffic will only be worse in the valley, so that might help some.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
How would everyone feel about Wright-Admendment style legislation passed to protect the investment into the new facility?

No, no, and no. Let the market decide.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
Would you all like to see LAS closed down?

Noooooooooooooo.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
Do you think Las Vegas can support two airports?

Eventually, yes.

They think it will be 2017, but like I said at this current growth rate Mc Carran will be maxed out more like around 2012.
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:25 pm

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 1):
haven't heard any developments lately, what's moving ahead?

By "moving ahead" I meant they are still there and the plan hasn't been tossed out the window yet.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 1):
The airport has plans to add a northwest wing to the D gates, which would provide 9 additional gates in mid-2008, as well as Terminal 3 in 2010 which would have it's own Parking, Baggage Claim, and Ticketing, however these projects may need to be completed sooner than they think at the current growth rate.

2010 will be a lofty goal for T3 seeing as how none of the houses that will need to be relocated have been. As far as I know, T3 is still on the drawing board just like Ivanapah.

So if Vegas can support two airports, which airlines will move out there, and what will be the motivation for them to do so?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 2):
So if Vegas can support two airports, which airlines will move out there, and what will be the motivation for them to do so?

Well by 2017, LAS will be so congested that maybe they will want to move to a non-congested airport. Otherwise I'm not sure.  Wink
 
txagkuwait
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:01 pm

Restrictions placed on McCarran would be okay, so long as they are reasonable and are applied to all carriers equally.

Let's look at reasonable. There is going to be one heck of a lot of infrastructure at McCarran and it will be relatively new. It makes zero sense to tear it all down. So, what a new airport needs to do is augment McCarran rather than replace it completely.

All other things being equal, short flights benefit from airports that are close to town much more than long hauls. To wit: if you are in London, England, it isn't really critical if your flight to Las Vegas lands at an airport 30 minutes closer to town. It's not like you are going to hop in your car and drive it instead. If you are in Ontario, however, and the trip from the airport to your final destination in town adds an hour to your travel time, you may very well decide to drive rather than fly.

Therefore, putting a perimeter rule on the close-in, "downtown" airport makes a certain amount of sense.

It does not make sense to impose rules against thru ticketing. That's just being punitive.

Let's summarize:

So, you are the city of Las Vegas and McCarran has gotten to the point where you just can't grow it any more and you need a new airport for expansion....

It would be a waste of money and resources to take a wrecking ball to your current airport. Thus, we are going to leave McCarran open.

We want airlines to move service to the new airport, but we don't want them to move everything there - to move everything to a new airport will force us to duplicate all the facilities we already have PLUS build more for additional growth. Allowing two airports to operate will allow us to build a smaller and less expensive new airport.

So we institute a perimeter rule a la La Guardia. Make it a thousand, or maybe 1500 miles. If someone wants to fly LAS-DEN (within the perimeter rule)-PVD they can do so on a single ticket. If they wish to go LAS-PVD on a nonstop, though, they'll have to use the new airport.

In the case of Las Vegas, you are going to have to do something like this. The location of the new airport is sufficiently remote, compared to the convenience of McCarran, that airlines are going to prefer McCarran.

The family traveling on vacation to Las Vegas are not going to be deterred by the fact that their nonstop flight from Cleveland deposited them someplace closer to Boulder City than the Strip.

The businessman from Phoenix needing to get downtown on a one day business trip will care a whole lot that he has an hour to travel once the plane lands.

The amount of infrastructure at and money invested in McCarran make it sheer lunacy to plow up the runways and build something larger 30 mi outside of town.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 4):
The amount of infrastructure at and money invested in McCarran make it sheer lunacy to plow up the runways and build something larger 30 mi outside of town.

Precisely. If McCarran is already that close to capacity, building a 2nd airport, and then closing McCarran and moving everything to the 2nd airport only transfers today's existing capacity from one airport to another, instantly saturating the 2nd airport. In that case, what's next, building a 3rd airport to relieve the congestion at the 2nd, and then closing the 2nd?

I seem to recall an old fable about cutting "excess" from one end of the blanket to make up for a shortfall at the other end of the same blanket...  Smile
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
The plans for a new Las Vegas airport about 30 miles south in Ivanapah are moving ahead at a steady pace. Currently, LAS is a great airport with modern facilities and an unbelievable location, however it will be overcapacity very soon. The way I see it, once the new airport is finished, there won't be a lot of motivation for airlines to move their service out to the new airport, given that Vegas is a tourist market and with an adequate facility so close to the strip.

See IAD/DCA for your answer, or Mid America. One of the two will occur. Moving by force through slot allocation or an empty airport. It would probably more cost effective to buy up land and add another parallel runway with 2,500' of separation. Vegas is VFR city.

[Edited 2006-03-10 14:48:22]
 
abefroman329
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:22 am

Unless Vegas' economy happens to shift away from gambling and tourism, or the new hot spot for casino hotels is suddenly the area around the new airport, it'll be a white elephant. Who in their right mind would fly to an airport 30 miles south of town when McCarran is right on the Strip?

And forget about perimeter restrictions - what's the motivation? You're not dealing with runways that are too short for larger aircraft like you are at LGA or DCA.

[Edited 2006-03-10 17:24:08]
 
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lapper
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Abefroman329 (Reply 7):
Who in their right mind would fly to an airport 30 miles south of town when McCarran is right on the Strip?

I suspect many of the airports in the US have towns that have grown up around them. People are not used to driving mile to get into a city. However in other parts of the world, it's the norm.

Look at what they have done in HKG, KUL, look at where Malpensa in in relation to Milan etc. Airports that are a long way from the city they serve, but operate perfectly well.

You sometimes need to stop and think, hang on a minute, we can't expand here any more and just have to bite the bullet at some point and move further out. Otherwise, what are you going to do, demolish Mandalay Bay and Luxor to build more airport? I don't think so.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Abefroman329 (Reply 7):
Who in their right mind would fly to an airport 30 miles south of town when McCarran is right on the Strip?

I'd bet money that new megacasino/hotels would be sprouting like mushrooms next to the new airport anyway.

Vegas is growing rapidly but it's not all casino/tourism related. People are just MOVING there. I'm going to be going to LAS twice this summer and neither time is to gamble or hang out on the Strip. That's like saying "who in their right mind would want to use IAD when DCA is so close to all those government buildings downtown?"

Although IAD is another issue entirely, I'll stick with the subject at hand Big grin
 
cjpark
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:17 am

Why would voters even bother to approve bonds for a new airport anywhere if there was not an assurance that the new facility would be given a better than average chance at success? What is the best way to do that? Close the older close in airport and make that land available for other uses. AKA Stapleton at Denver and Bergstrom in Austin.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):

So, gang, to all those who have commented on Wright before, I'd like to get a pre-debate going, before anything has been enacted or passed. How would everyone feel about Wright-Admendment style legislation passed to protect the investment into the new facility? Would you all like to see LAS closed down? Do you think Las Vegas can support two airports? I realize it's not a perfect parallel, but there are many similarities to what Vegas may face 15 to 20 years from now to what Dallas/Ft. Worth now faces. Let the thread begin.

Oh HELL NO. Long Live LAS.

The frieght and charter airlines will probably be the first to move to Ivanpah, if it gets built. They just started a multi-year environmental study out there from what I have read in the RJ. By 2017, if the Vegas area keeps growing at the same rate we will have over 3 million people here plus who knows how many hundreds of thousands of tourists at any given point. Yes, the valley will be able to maintain two airports. They need to start small, not build a fortress like DFW that is a complete pain in the ass, whatever airlines choose to move there, or are inticed to move there through lower landing/parking fees, rents, more facilities, etc. are going to be testing the market. I could see airlines like Champion, G4, maybe NK plus freight carriers going out to Ivanpah if it were open today.

The main problem we currently have at LAS is lack of runway capacity, we need to get the business jets that are not casino owned out of LAS and over to Henderson Executive or VGM. Also, why do the Janet flights go out of LAS, let the Feds run them through Nellis, tear down the EG & G terminal, along with all the GA hangers and parking, Signature, on the west side of the airport, along Koval Lane, might be able to add a long, thin, 10-12 gate terminal there.

As for Dallas, they F***ked up big time with DFW, at this point in time, without the AA hub at DFW, DAL would probably be more than large enough to handle all Metroplex flights with the amount of service currently being provided to the area.

We here in LAS should learn from their mistake and not build a large, useless, airport 30 miles outside of town. But a small reliever airport that can be substantially expanded if needed. That is what LAS needs. We are also not a hub in the sense that DFW is a hub, never will be. LAS is primarily an O/D airport, WN operated so many flights they have an incidental hub here, HP is smaller than WN in LAS and considers LAS a hub as they have many destinations served, not a whole lot of frequency though on intra-west routes.

As for the Wright Amedment in LAS, if anybody in Gov't. tried to pull that crap again we should have Vito put them in a nice warm hole out in the middle of the desert.
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 4):
The family traveling on vacation to Las Vegas are not going to be deterred by the fact that their nonstop flight from Cleveland deposited them someplace closer to Boulder City than the Strip.

Actually, Ivanpah is on I-15 South of LAS, between Jean and Primm. Primm is the Cali state line. Boulder City is on HWY 93, just across the damn from Arizona.
 
incitatus
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 4):
All other things being equal, short flights benefit from airports that are close to town much more than long hauls. To wit: if you are in London, England, it isn't really critical if your flight to Las Vegas lands at an airport 30 minutes closer to town.

That's a reasonable idea but keep in mind that pushing longer haul flights to the far out airport makes connecting services into the closer airport more desirable. So Vegas may have a hard time attracting longhaul service because flying into LAX and connecting to the current airport may be preferred to landing in the far out airport.

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 4):
It does not make sense to impose rules against thru ticketing. That's just being punitive.

An unsurprising statement, but what the no-thru ticketing rule is trying to prevent is exactly what I described.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
cjpark
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 11):
As for the Wright Amedment in LAS, if anybody in Gov't. tried to pull that crap again we should have Vito put them in a nice warm hole out in the middle of the desert.

Won't it be funny if and when the new airport opens and WN refuses move Ensign will suddenly see the real reason behind the WA and he has to flop like a fish to take care of his constituents. Just think instead of the WA we can also have the EA.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 14):
Won't it be funny if and when the new airport opens and WN refuses move Ensign will suddenly see the real reason behind the WA and he has to flop like a fish to take care of his constituents. Just think instead of the WA we can also have the EA.

Please, thats the best you can do, by the way, do some homework and you'll find the Clark County Department of Aviation produces surplus revenue, has been for a long while. What makes you think that building another airport will bankrupt them and piss off Nevadans such as myelf. That will only happen if they build another DFW, from the plans they have posted, the CCDOA are talking a small reliever airport, two runway, twenty gate terminal, nothing to drastic to start, lots of room to expand. Read up on some of this before you post, you might learn something.

http://www.mccarran.com/

Click on Ivanpah valley airport you can play the timeline, check out the plans, etc.

As for WN or anybody else being forced to move to Ivanpah, everybody wants to fly into LAS, the tourists, conventioneers, residents of LAS, it is so convientent that the airport is in the middle of town. When they opened it in the 1940's, it was out in the middle of nowhere. The Strip was not the invented yet, Downtown on Fremont was where the action was back then.
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:36 am

The more I look and think about it the more I think they are off with the passenger predictions. 2.7% growth rate a year? Ya right. Last year it was over 6%. and then they even say Mc Carran will be maxed out in mid 2014 but the new airport won't be ready till at least 2017??


http://www.mccarran.com/Ivanpah/Metro%20Area%20Passengers.PPT

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 11):
The main problem we currently have at LAS is lack of runway capacity, we need to get the business jets that are not casino owned out of LAS and over to Henderson Executive or VGM

Actually according to there website, the problem is gate space, parking, and roadway congestion, not airfield capacity. LAS's main runways are 25L and R, but 19L/R are not used nearly as much as they could be. 19 L/R are more like overflow runways, such as when there isn't enough spacing between the 25R arrival's so they overflow on to one of the 19's.
 
cjpark
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 15):
Please, thats the best you can do, by the way, do some homework and you'll find the Clark County Department of Aviation produces surplus revenue, has been for a long while. What makes you think that building another airport will bankrupt them and piss off Nevadans such as myelf. That will only happen if they build another DFW, from the plans they have posted, the CCDOA are talking a small reliever airport, two runway, twenty gate terminal, nothing to drastic to start, lots of room to expand. Read up on some of this before you post, you might learn something.

We all ready have learned more about airport issues in North Texas than any region should have to learn. Thanks to WN. Whether or not your airport system can pay for itself is not germain to my post. Based on our experience with WN you guys are in for a hell of a ride. I was just making light of the irony of the situation you may soon find yourself in.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 17):
We all ready have learned more about airport issues in North Texas than any region should have to learn. Thanks to WN. Whether or not your airport system can pay for itself is not germain to my post. Based on our experience with WN you guys are in for a hell of a ride. I was just making light of the irony of the situation you may soon find yourself in.

WN has been in LAS for years and the airport will bend over backwards for them. The bring cheap fares which means more passengersn and more tourists, which in turn means more $$ for everyone. The airport, City, County, and State are all happy to have WN in LAS.
 
jpj777
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:47 am

When I first saw the title of this tread I thought you were going to talk about the residents who don't want planes turning northbound from 25L/R which is a very hot topic in the valley right now and also a reason there can't be more takeoff's from those runways, as far as T3 goes there are no more houses there they could build it at anytime (check Goggle maps, they just recently updated the Vegas valley) also they are building a big shopping center on the corner of Russell and Eastern which I belive was airport property at one time which could have been used to move the cargo facilitys or at least the business jets and build a new terminal where there where. Think McCarran would like that land back?
 
travelin man
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 5:49 am

If they close LAS, and move the flights out to near the state line, you'll probably see a drop in the number of people flying from SoCal. By the time you would check in, wait, fly from LAX/BUR/ONT to this new airport, get your bags, and the drive another 30-40 miles, you may just as well have driven in the first place. It would be just as long in terms of time, and cheaper too.

The only reason it makes sense to fly from SoCal to Vegas these days is because of the proximity of LAS to the Strip.

That said, I would hope that LAS doesn't close, but that this new airport (if built) would be just a feeder airport.
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 17):
Whether or not your airport system can pay for itself is not germain to my post.

Your original post:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 14):

Won't it be funny if and when the new airport opens and WN refuses move Ensign will suddenly see the real reason behind the WA and he has to flop like a fish to take care of his constituents

Than what is your point, Ensign will not allow LAS to be closed to commercial traffic, his father deep in with the Mandalay Resorts, now part of MGM Mirage, no way on a snowy day in Hell would Ensign vote to close or restict LAS. The casinos run the show out here, they are not going to want the CCDOA, Ensign, Ried, Guinn or anybody else you can think of, do anything that might be detremental to tourism, which closing or restricting LAS would. Therefore where would the support to close or restrict LAS come from.

You may view WN as a problem in DAL, yet from what you have posted in previous threads, you fly WN from DAL-HOU. Whats up with that, you talk about closing DAL and not flying WN, yet you vote with Cash, not this BS we are doing here, that you want WN to keep serving DAL, keeping DAL open.

We are in for a "hell of a ride" with WN how ? They are the largest carrier at LAS, they keep expanding flights out of LAS. The only problem the CCDOA have with WN now is that WN needs more gates.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 17):
I was just making light of the irony of the situation you may soon find yourself in.

Soon find ourselves in ? For an airport that might never be built, who knows what will happen between now and when another airport gets built in the valley. Who's to say US/HP pulls another US and closes up West Coast hubs again, or DL or NW goes bye-bye, not as much of an effect. It might be a while until flights built back up.

With this proposed airport at Ivanpah, the Californian's are already complaing that we might be polluting their vast metropolis of Baker and their side of Sandy Valley with an airport so close to the CA line.  Wink Seriously though, I read something along those lines in one of the local articles on the proposed airprot. A lawsuit to stop development of the proposed airport from CA before it starts would not surpirse me.

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 16):

Actually according to there website, the problem is gate space, parking, and roadway congestion, not airfield capacity.

I hear that, somewhere in my first post I had a solution for that  Wink, T3, getting rid of GA parking/hangers, maybe for T4. I think I am going to try and run for Director of CCDOA. Big grin JK
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Jpj777 (Reply 19):
When I first saw the title of this tread I thought you were going to talk about the residents who don't want planes turning northbound from 25L/R which is a very hot topic in the valley right now and also a reason there can't be more takeoff's from those runways, as far as T3 goes there are no more houses there they could build it at anytime (check Goggle maps, they just recently updated the Vegas valley) also they are building a big shopping center on the corner of Russell and Eastern which I belive was airport property at one time which could have been used to move the cargo facilitys or at least the business jets and build a new terminal where there where. Think McCarran would like that land back?

Yeah the Scummerlin residents have been making noise about the "right turn", little do they remember, prior to 2001 or so alot more planes made the right turn off of the 25's than a left turn, like currently. Pretty much the FAA has said we are doing what we want on this one, the residents lost. What do I care, I live in GVR, all parts of the valley have some form of planes from one of the four airports in the valley flying over their homes, those people need to deal with it.

Russell/Eastern, I used to rent one of those homes back when I was in college, all where owned by CCDOA, Terra West rented them out dirt cheap. Great memories standig on the roof with a beer watching the departures/landings on the 25's
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 22):
Yeah the Scummerlin residents have been making noise about the "right turn", little do they remember, prior to 2001 or so alot more planes made the right turn off of the 25's than a left turn, like currently. Pretty much the FAA has said we are doing what we want on this one, the residents lost. What do I care, I live in GVR, all parts of the valley have some form of planes from one of the four airports in the valley flying over their homes, those people need to deal with it.

My dad lives in Summerlin where I visit several times a year, I don't see what the big deal is, by the time the planes get over there they are going to be up several thousand feet, it's not like they are going to be creating a sonic boom at a thousand feet. Hell I swear those VGT turbo props that buzz over constantly are noiser than if a WN 737 was overhead at 8,000 that departed off of 25L.
 
abefroman329
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
I'd bet money that new megacasino/hotels would be sprouting like mushrooms next to the new airport anyway.

Good point, much like the old Hacienda.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
Vegas is growing rapidly but it's not all casino/tourism related. People are just MOVING there

And they're MOVING there because the casinos and tourism are generating a need for other industries. Why would people need/want to live in the middle of the desert if there weren't legions of casino workers who need food, clothing, shelter, banks, etc., etc.?

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
That's like saying "who in their right mind would want to use IAD when DCA is so close to all those government buildings downtown?"

Sort of. I'm pretty sure the native population that finds IAD more convenient than DCA is much larger than the one that will find this theoretical second Vegas airport more convenient than McCarran. Plus we have the perimeter rule, which makes IAD more attractive in terms of more nonstop flights from farther away. Plus, well, it's not as though the federal government is going to pick up and move to Reston, or they're going to open up a second federal government there...
 
HPRamper
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Abefroman329 (Reply 24):
And they're MOVING there because the casinos and tourism are generating a need for other industries.

I totally agree. But the people who work those support industries probably aren't going to give a crap about the casinos, at least after the first year or so of living in Vegas. If all the business in Vegas were crammed onto the Strip, fine. But Vegas is a big city now, and the number of people headed out of town is increasing as the population grows.

As for why people live there, some people actually like that dry heat. Some hope the weather helps ailments. Some just like the desert. Some work at the airport  Smile I personally wouldn't want to live there, I work with a couple of guys who used to and they hated it.

The best idea would be one already posted. Use the new airport for cargo and charters, I'd throw in all general aviation and yes, all non-casino related bizjets. Basically the BFI to LAS's SEA. For starters. I have no doubt regular air service wouldn't be too far behind. Depending on fares, most people would have no big problem flying to an airport other than LAS.
 
vegasplanes
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 23):

My dad lives in Summerlin where I visit several times a year, I don't see what the big deal is, by the time the planes get over there they are going to be up several thousand feet, it's not like they are going to be creating a sonic boom at a thousand feet. Hell I swear those VGT turbo props that buzz over constantly are noiser than if a WN 737 was overhead at 8,000 that departed off of 25L.

Exactly, the residents of Summerlin/The Lakes are picking the wrong fight, they should be more worried about VGT, planes overthere have been dropping out of the sky the last few years, all residential around VGT.
 
ScottB
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
It would probably more cost effective to buy up land and add another parallel runway with 2,500' of separation. Vegas is VFR city.

I'm about to fall over in shock because we actually agree on something. The best option is just to expand the thing where it is already. Virtually no one is going to want to fly to an airport that is literally in the middle of nowhere, 30 miles from the Strip. The only way you'd get airlines to fly there is by restricting LAS with slots or a perimeter, but that would reduce the utility of the airport as a connecting hub. Short-haul passengers would just drive. Closing down LAS is simply not a reasonable option given the enormous cost of building a larger facility somewhere else.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
Why would voters even bother to approve bonds for a new airport anywhere if there was not an assurance that the new facility would be given a better than average chance at success? What is the best way to do that? Close the older close in airport and make that land available for other uses. AKA Stapleton at Denver and Bergstrom in Austin.

Just toss LAS in the dump? Just toss DAL in the dump? Who in their right mind just throws the millions if not billions of perfectly good infratstructure away?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
HPRamper
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:02 am

Depends....if A) the old airport is no longer needed or wanted, which is NOT the case in the LAS situation, and B) the land can be redeveloped and used in a way that will be more profitable in the bigger picture than the airport was previously.

So with LAS, we are looking at possibly B, if that whole chunk of land was turned into casinos, but very much not A. So I seriously doubt LAS will be shuttered anytime in the foreseeable future.

Now with DAL, I'm not sure how much Dallas pulls in from taxes not to mention the other services WN provides for the city, and I'm not sure of the land value. Suffice to say DAL is smack dab in the middle of Dallas, only a few miles from downtown in fact. DAL is a much more complicated issue than LAS since this is a real airport and not some "theoretical in the future airport."

So, B is iffy. I also firmly believe that DFW could handle WN operations thrown into the mix, at least since DL pulled out. So I'd personally say the region does not NEED DAL. All this talk of competition...with two airports in the same metro area, that just means the region is competing against itself. Competition should stay between airlines, not between airports.

Does WN own DAL? Like, own as in put payments down and bought it? Because if not, they are still technically at the whims of the politicians in that area.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:18 am

I'd rather see incentives given to the major airlines to bring larger aircraft into LAS instead of a constant stream of 737's, etc. Presently, DL is the only domestic operator using widebodies on LAS domestic runs within the continental USA.

As for the Summerlin right turn issue- I agree there is limited noise issue as the aircraft will be so high up by the time they reach the Summerlin area, it's almost a moot point. Now as for the Nevada Trails development- one of the reasons I didn't buy there was because of the aircraft noise.
 
HPLASOps
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 9):
I'd bet money that new megacasino/hotels would be sprouting like mushrooms next to the new airport anyway.

Some are already out there (Buffalo Bill's, Nevada Landing) as well as a 36 hole golf course (Primm Valley - just on the other side of the stateline). However, I don't think many will spring up just because of the distance travelled to get back to the valley. You can probably get some people to drive out there for a job, but you can't get many, and I'll bet there are more people on staff at any given casino at any given hour than there are residents who live within 20 miles of the Ivanapah airport.

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 22):
Yeah the Scummerlin residents have been making noise about the "right turn", little do they remember, prior to 2001 or so alot more planes made the right turn off of the 25's than a left turn, like currently. Pretty much the FAA has said we are doing what we want on this one, the residents lost. What do I care, I live in GVR, all parts of the valley have some form of planes from one of the four airports in the valley flying over their homes, those people need to deal with it.

True, but that's just because SNOBberlin residents think that since their homes are at higher altitude than Green Valley homes, they have a higher opinion. I've always loved living on the south side of the valley, and as long as I live here, I'll continue to live on the south side. I do miss taking off from 25R, making a right turn, flying over the strip and seeing the Desert Inn Golf course passing below me. The left turn just doesn't provide the same view, unless you get a real chubby out of looking at bare mountains.

But back to the original topic - it seems like most are in favor of leaving LAS open. But no one has really made any solid speculation as to how to motivate airlines to move out there. I think it's almost certain WN will refuse to move, and if WN won't move, then why should anyone else? HP/US will need to stick around to keep them in check, and if AA and UA still have west coast flights, they're not going to want to move. You might be able to get G4, but with them having headquarters in Vegas, I would hope they are given an option as to what works best for them. Moving cargo alone won't be enough to solve the overcapacity issues, some airlines are going to have to move out there. So who and why?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 27):
The best option is just to expand the thing where it is already. Virtually no one is going to want to fly to an airport that is literally in the middle of nowhere, 30 miles from the Strip. The only way you'd get airlines to fly there is by restricting LAS with slots or a perimeter, but that would reduce the utility of the airport as a connecting hub. Short-haul passengers would just drive. Closing down LAS is simply not a reasonable option given the enormous cost of building a larger facility somewhere else.

 checkmark  I know it will be costly, but I say buy out some of those businesses along Sunset Rd. there and build a third parallel, and also expand parking facilities and make some room for more gates.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 29):
So, B is iffy. I also firmly believe that DFW could handle WN operations thrown into the mix, at least since DL pulled out. So I'd personally say the region does not NEED DAL.

Sure, the region doesn't need DAL, I just don't see why the need to close it either. WN has been there for years, and has a nice little operation there. HOU and IAH exsist just fine with out any type of WA.
 
aaway
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
How would everyone feel about Wright-Admendment style legislation passed to protect the investment into the new facility?

Fortunately, the City of LAS and it's Dept. of Aviation (DoA) does not have another municipality as a rival and cosponsor. Therefore, Wright-style legislative protections wouldn't be necessary. However, if the Ivanpah site were destined to become the primary air carrier field upon opening, then I believe LAS would follow the DEN and AUS models and shutter McCarran. Then Henderson would be expanded for all-cargo and charters.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
Would you all like to see LAS closed down?

McCarran's strategic location ensures that it will remain the primary air carrier airport for the Las Vegas area well beyond the planned opening of the Ivanpah site. And I'll agree with Boeing 7E7...there's more airside capacity to be had at McCarran - south of Sunset Road.

Quoting HPLASOps (Thread starter):
Do you think Las Vegas can support two airports?

Technically, being done now if you consider VGT and Scenic Airlines.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
HPLASOps
Topic Author
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 32):
I know it will be costly, but I say buy out some of those businesses along Sunset Rd. there and build a third parallel, and also expand parking facilities and make some room for more gates.

Hey, my parents' business used to be in those buildings across Sunset Road. What about this option, if we're in the land buying speculation business - buy up the property along Eastern Ave. up to Tropicana and make another (or two) north south runway, and then close 19/1 and put another terminal there?

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 32):
Sure, the region doesn't need DAL, I just don't see why the need to close it either. WN has been there for years, and has a nice little operation there. HOU and IAH exsist just fine with out any type of WA.

How is capacity at HOU and IAH anyways? Could WN move back to IAH (I know they don't want to) and not make IAH over capacity?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 30):
I'd rather see incentives given to the major airlines to bring larger aircraft into LAS instead of a constant stream of 737's, etc. Presently, DL is the only domestic operator using widebodies on LAS domestic runs within the continental USA.

Sure DL runs widebody's into LAS, but they also run CRJ's to SLC, which seems like a waste to me. The 737's actually seem somewhat right sized for LAS, they aren't considered a heavy, and still provide 137 seats. Some markets like LAS-PHX though could support some larger aircraft.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 31):
But no one has really made any solid speculation as to how to motivate airlines to move out there.

Exactly, and as you said no one is going to want to be the first one out there, nor are most people in the valley except on the extreme southwest side going to even want use that airport.
 
ScottB
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 31):
But no one has really made any solid speculation as to how to motivate airlines to move out there. I think it's almost certain WN will refuse to move, and if WN won't move, then why should anyone else?

I don't think anyone would or should want to move operations out of LAS. Yes, it would be expensive to take land for expansion, but duplicating the infrastructure at a site 30 miles away would be even more costly and inconvenient to passengers.

Pretty much the only way to force airlines out to a remote airport would be to offer very significant financial incentives or to institute some sort of slots (and no, not Las Vegas-style slots) regime or perimeter rule. It's the same as how you'd force airlines to use ONT instead of LAX.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 30):
I'd rather see incentives given to the major airlines to bring larger aircraft into LAS instead of a constant stream of 737's, etc. Presently, DL is the only domestic operator using widebodies on LAS domestic runs within the continental USA.

Why would the casinos do that? The only way the airlines would do it is IF they received some kind of real incentive, and even then...I know even with a hub in LAS, my airline wouldn't bite on that. For many airlines widebodies are stretched thin as it is, and the money made flying a US-Europe route will beat the hell out of anything made flying domestic to LAS. Especially since the majors right now are adding international flights and often cutting domestics, or at least keeping them at status quo.

Speaking of which, what kind of incentives do you mean?
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 29):
All this talk of competition...with two airports in the same metro area, that just means the region is competing against itself.

No it doesn't. It means this region is using all of its assets to effectively compete against other regions of the country and the world.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 29):
Competition should stay between airlines, not between airports.

That is one of the dumbest tag lines I have ever heard. The airlines are competing. Would you advocate closing airports in Houston, LA, NY, South Florida, and Chicago because "airports shouldn't compete against each other"?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:19 am

My prediction:

1)We will all be dead before this gets built.

2)If/When it happens they will close LAS ala Stapelton and build condos.

It's about the land. Not the runways, no matter what they say now.

No airport = No Wright.
 
aaway
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):
That is one of the dumbest tag lines I have ever heard. The airlines are competing. Would you advocate closing airports in Houston, LA, NY, South Florida, and Chicago because "airports shouldn't compete against each other"?

With all due respect to the thread at hand (no hi-jacking of this thread), the primary reason that the other areas have multiple airports is due to capacity restraints at the primary fields.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
iowaman
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 34):
Hey, my parents' business used to be in those buildings across Sunset Road. What about this option, if we're in the land buying speculation business - buy up the property along Eastern Ave. up to Tropicana and make another (or two) north south runway, and then close 19/1 and put another terminal there?

That would be even more costly having to tear up 2 runways and then building a third east-west runway, however they would have more terminal space. I still think that the best bet is to build a 3rd 25L/R parallel when the time comes and find some other space for a new terminal, maybe taking out 19R for it.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 39):
My prediction:

1)We will all be dead before this gets built.


I may not be, however I will probably be an old man.  Wink
 
HPLASOps
Topic Author
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 41):
I still think that the best bet is to build a 3rd 25L/R parallel when the time comes and find some other space for a new terminal, maybe taking out 19R for it.

Why not take out 19L since that's the one that intersects with 25R? That would allow for more dual ops and greater capacity. You could have all the heavies and mainline aircraft going out of the 25s and then save 19R for the GA flights.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting Aaway (Reply 40):
With all due respect to the thread at hand (no hi-jacking of this thread), the primary reason that the other areas have multiple airports is due to capacity restraints at the primary fields.

Without Wright suppression of demand, DAL would surely be at capacity and DFW would would be very busy with some room to accomodate growth. I don't see anything wrong with that scenario.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
jpj777
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:18 pm

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 31):
I'd rather see incentives given to the major airlines to bring larger aircraft into LAS instead of a constant stream of 737's, etc. Presently, DL is the only domestic operator using widebodies on LAS domestic runs within the continental USA.

American, Continental, Delta, Northwest and US Air bring in 757's daliy and theres ATA and Hawaiian 767's to Hawaii and OAI's DC10's, we even get an A340 from the Philippines (of course that is international) 757's may be considered narrow but they are "Heavy" in FAA terms and loaded with PAX's

[Edited 2006-03-11 04:02:42]
 
cjpark
Posts: 1226
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:36 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 28):
Just toss LAS in the dump? Just toss DAL in the dump? Who in their right mind just throws the millions if not billions of perfectly good infratstructure away?

People who see no need for under utilized infrastructure and who want to protect the investments made in newer planned airports.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):
No it doesn't. It means this region is using all of its assets to effectively compete against other regions of the country and the world.

No it means that the City of Dallas is competing against itself. Think about this for a minute, if DFW was the only passenger airport in the region we could have more departures per capita than any other top 10 city in the country.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):
That is one of the dumbest tag lines I have ever heard. The airlines are competing. Would you advocate closing airports in Houston, LA, NY, South Florida, and Chicago because "airports shouldn't compete against each other"?

Here we go again with that tired argument that if the other Cities can have multiple airports why can't we?

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 39):
No airport = No Wright.

Perfect!!!!!!!!

I can't think of a better way to say it.

Quoting Aaway (Reply 40):
With all due respect to the thread at hand (no hi-jacking of this thread), the primary reason that the other areas have multiple airports is due to capacity restraints at the primary fields.

Exactly!

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 43):
Without Wright suppression of demand, DAL would surely be at capacity and DFW would would be very busy with some room to accomodate growth. I don't see anything wrong with that scenario.

Except that there is no way for anyone to prove your theory. If DAL had not been restricted we would be paying for DFW from our local taxes. DAL would have been at capacity due to lower costs for the airlines and that 10 billion dollar investment Dallas made in DFW would resemble the old Greater Southwest Airport. But I guess that is what you really want right DAL?

Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 21):
You may view WN as a problem in DAL, yet from what you have posted in previous threads, you fly WN from DAL-HOU. Whats up with that, you talk about closing DAL and not flying WN, yet you vote with Cash, not this BS we are doing here, that you want WN to keep serving DAL, keeping DAL open.

I think that WN is being rather disengenious in its current effort to repeal Wright. Why did it wait all these years? There have been other efforts to repeal or change Wright that WN did not support.

That being said I would rather fly WN from DFW. I never said anything about not flying WN. DAL is not needed and should be closed to commercial traffic. WN can and should operate from DFW.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
incitatus
Posts: 3386
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RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:09 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 43):
Without Wright suppression of demand, DAL would surely be at capacity and DFW would would be very busy with some room to accommodate growth. I don't see anything wrong with that scenario.

Notice that after a few comments the pro-Southwest crowd (except one) packed out of this thread. The arguments in favor of keeping an old airport open get really dicey once there is no Luv in the scene.

A new airport far out in Vegas would have difficulty attracting longhaul service unless a Wright style restriction is placed on old LAS. Or it is bulldozed.
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 39):
My prediction:

1)We will all be dead before this gets built.

2)If/When it happens they will close LAS ala Stapelton and build condos.

It's about the land. Not the runways, no matter what they say now.

No airport = No Wright.

1) Maybe, maybe not

2) Look at the plans they are posting for this proposed airport, showing max. capacity at 44 gates with 2 runways. This is half the size of LAS now, not withstanding D gates and Terminal 3 expansion. The new airport is not supposed to replace LAS, it is a reliever airport to supplement LAS.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 45):
I think that WN is being rather disengenious in its current effort to repeal Wright. Why did it wait all these years? There have been other efforts to repeal or change Wright that WN did not support.

That being said I would rather fly WN from DFW. I never said anything about not flying WN. DAL is not needed and should be closed to commercial traffic. WN can and should operate from DFW.

Yet, currently you are supporting DAL being open, WA aside, by flying from there at all. The cash you are giving WN to fly those flights is ammo in WN's camp to keep DAL open to commercial traffic and try to remove the WA. Yet all you are proposing is to restrict commerical traffic at DAL, not close the airport and redevelop it.

Having not lived in the Dallas area, flying into DFW is a pain in the rump, from taxing to the terminal, to getting to the rental car facility, to getting out of the airport. Takes longer to get out of DFW than it did to fly in from LAS, terrible design from the D perspective of O/D, other than the loooong taxi times it serves its purpose as a hub. But IF AA ever did decide to move or close that hub, or AA went bye-bye, DFW would be an absolute ghost town. A hub can always be replaced, not too many people care if they connect in IAH or STL vs. DFW or like.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:25 pm

>>Notice that after a few comments the pro-Southwest crowd (except one) packed out of this thread. The arguments in favor of keeping an old airport open get really dicey once there is no Luv in the scene.<<

Nope, some of us (me) just woke up since I am in a time zone 9 hrs ahead of DAL and 11 hrs ahead of LAS.

The rest of 'em might have been following college basketball tournaments. It is possible to have a life outside A.net....in fact, it's not only possible, it's desirable.

>>Except that there is no way for anyone to prove your theory. If DAL had not been restricted we would be paying for DFW from our local taxes. DAL would have been at capacity due to lower costs for the airlines and that 10 billion dollar investment Dallas made in DFW would resemble the old Greater Southwest Airport. But I guess that is what you really want right DAL?<<

No way to prove your theory, either. I would suggest that DFW would have become DFW and DAL would have been DAL with or without protectionist legislation. Why? Because DAL was fairly close to saturation in 1973. Deregulation and the dramatic increase in airline passenger traffic which accompanied it far outstripped anything DAL could have handled.

But speaking of disingenious.....I find it hysterical that the same folks who have said, in other posts, that DFW is more convenient to everyone and that's why WN should move to DFW will selectively say that DFW would end up like Greater Southwest...which ended up the way it did because it was so pathetically inconvenient.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5114
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Another Wright Thread - Vegas Style

Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:28 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 38):
That is one of the dumbest tag lines I have ever heard. The airlines are competing.

Hmm...didn't mean for it to be a "tag line," but ok. And I still beg to differ. Put two baseball teams in stadiums across town, and they don't have a game. Put WN in with the other airlines at DFW, then we will see real competition, survival of the fittest in action. And what a show it would be.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 45):
DAL is not needed and should be closed to commercial traffic.



Quoting Vegasplanes (Reply 47):
Yet all you are proposing is to restrict commerical traffic at DAL, not close the airport and redevelop it.

So what should be done, if not bulldoze it, but keep it open to non-commercial flights? That's a big chunk of real estate.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 46):
A new airport far out in Vegas would have difficulty attracting longhaul service unless a Wright style restriction is placed on old LAS. Or it is bulldozed.

We might see the LGA-JFK scenario played out eventually. But that would be years down the road, after the new airport opened.

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