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Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 92):
I just did a quick overview of San Diego on Google maps. I just started laughing I mean really laughing. The fact that you guys can't come up with a better idea and that there is no spare land is hilarious. If one really wanted to there were more than enough spots to put in an airport. It would effect the environment but is definitely doable. You guys on the west coast make me laugh.

The entire county has been computer modeled and tested for compatible sites. A runway primary surface extends 10,000' from each end of the runway at a 34:1 slope (1 foot rise for each 34 feet of distance). This surface splays out from 200' to 2,500' wide at the end of the surface. A secondary surface extends beyond that to 50,000' from the threshold. Any penetration of the surface makes the location invalid if the terrain removal criteria set by Federal Law is exceeded. Terrain removal is expensive in and of itself and any environmental issues discovered require extensive mitigation cost mandated by the Federal Law. An airport has to have a reasonable cost of construction or it becomes impossible to operate at. Perhaps you think the environmental and terrain issues are that easy to deal with, but you couldn't be more wrong. If anything it shows your lack of understanding of the issue. Federal Law covers the environmental component, so it would apply to what ever place you live in as well it's not a "west coast thing". It is "not" doable. Like the professor, you're looking at this in a vaccum.

Here's a looksee at said surface (Page 6):

http://www.san.org/flash/assp/pdf/3.14_Otay%20Mesa%20Area.pdf

San Diego isn't some flat chunck of land East of the Rockies.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 94):
Is it just me, or does it seem like that everyone on this board who actually lives in San Diego thinks Miramar is the way to go, but the out-of-staters are saying no way. I googled and found a great location

I'm out of state... But a native...  

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 97):
It's headquarter for the 1st Marine division and other units. The whole vast of land is needed for training. They run tanks, shoot artillery etc. Trust me when I say that the whole area is needed for training. It's important when you want a good well trained military.

And an airfield was proposed for the Marines to house the MV-22's South of the existing field with brand spanking new digs, above the flood plain and further away from the said training areas.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 92):
Also, the F-35Bs will have to make carrier landings when they are attached to the carrier air wings. So, they will continue to practice carrier landings along with VTOLs. 40+ fighter jets and 40 plus military helicopters need their own base. Joint use is not an option.


Only new F-18 pilots in training are using that for carrier landings. The active duty peeps go to San Clemente. The training will be gone. No factor. But if they feel they need one, here's a field:

http://www.terraserver.com/imagery/i...one=11&res=8&provider_id=512&t=pan

San Clemente:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...8.537674&spn=0.277543,0.462799&t=k

[Edited 2006-03-15 15:09:12]
 
CX747
Posts: 6554
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:26 pm

Nice, finally something other than why Miramar is needed!!! Thank you Coronado!!!

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 99):
Now a person with real insight was retired Army colonel and City Councilman Frank W. Seifert (he was the first person to fly into Lindbergh Field in 1928). He suggested Mission Bay be developed into the regions airport back in 1939. It was nothing but a swamp back then but later developed into a park in the 1950's. Today, I think a runway down the middle of the flood control channel would work. Departures would be right over the water. Arrivals would be through the Mission Valley gap near I-5 and I-8. An 11,000 foot runway is possible.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting CX747 (Reply 101):
Nice, finally something other than why Miramar is needed!!! Thank you Coronado!!!

They looked at it, click around at all the 32 sites looked at:

Mission Bay Dredge/Fill
San Diego River

http://www.san.org/flash/assp/map_load.htm

Next....
 
CX747
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:27 am

I like that site! It made me laugh again because anything "civilian" is wayyy to expensive and harms the environment. Miltiary sites don't have any environment it is just the fact that the military owns it!!! Your observation that Miramar is the best though is wrong. There are several civilian sites that could be used. Pursue those please.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 103):
I like that site! It made me laugh again because anything "civilian" is wayyy to expensive and harms the environment. Miltiary sites don't have any environment it is just the fact that the military owns it!!! Your observation that Miramar is the best though is wrong. There are several civilian sites that could be used. Pursue those please.

You have no concept of the issue at hand. None at all. Even the estimated $8 Billion is a marginal cost for a two runway airport. Denver, with 6 runways would only be $9 Billion today. If you can't come to terms with that, then maybe you should find another topic. You're comments are borderline trolling, but certainly amusing given your lack of knowledge and understanding of Airport Construction standards and costs.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 82):
Actually, I'm headed off to OTS for the Air Force this May.

Then I'm glad I retired. God help the Air Force.

[Edited 2006-03-15 17:15:48]
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:37 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 104):
Then I'm glad I retired. God help the Air Force.

Was your bitterness beneficial to the Air Force?
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 105):
Was your bitterness beneficial to the Air Force?

Hardly bitter as previously stated, but if ignorance and self servitude is the future, then the military is clearly headed in the wrong direction. Such a stature is not helpful to anyone.
 
Lostintime
Topic Author
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:23 am

Even with all the discussion about locations and such it will be interesting after the vote in November what Bruce Henderson will dredge up into this whole process and send it to the courts for years.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:46 am

Quote:
Even with all the discussion about locations and such it will be interesting after the vote in November what Bruce Henderson will dredge up into this whole process and send it to the courts for years.

I hope when Bruce Henderson passes away he can be buried under home plate at Petco Park.

He always said the stadium would be built over his dead body.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Lostintime (Reply 107):
Even with all the discussion about locations and such it will be interesting after the vote in November what Bruce Henderson will dredge up into this whole process and send it to the courts for years.

Maybe this will keep that money waster busy:

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/pp.asp?c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=1184811
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 109):
Maybe this will keep that money waster busy:

We will have to figure out what 90 days he is going to be working for them and then during that time figure out what we need to get accomplished.
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:57 am

I will say it one last time, Brown Field. They can remove the mountians and flatten that area out, NO PROBLEM. As far as the environmentalist go, who in the heck gave them the authority to tell what the majority can and cannot do/build/etc because they said so? Hmmm....

The city wants Miramar because its the CHEAPEST route, end of story.

Personally, I would rather pay $14 billion to go into an airport rather than city officials pockets; Petco Park and Qualcomm Stadium anyone?

*Yeah, I'm going to get flamed, but what else is new on this site?*
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
*Yeah, I'm going to get flamed, but what else is new on this site?*

No kidding, be prepared! Everybody, but a few, want to run the military out and if you tell them to hold on for a momment, they say, HOW DARE YOU GO AGAINST WHAT I SAY!!!!
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
The city wants Miramar because its the CHEAPEST route, end of story.

It's a County, not City issue.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
I will say it one last time, Brown Field. They can remove the mountians and flatten that area out, NO PROBLEM. As far as the environmentalist go, who in the heck gave them the authority to tell what the majority can and cannot do/build/etc because they said so? Hmmm....

Try again. The endangered species are on the Federal List. I'm with ya, but it's not an option for a replacement airport. RNP maybe with 737's, and that's a big maybe.

My favorite is on page 7:

http://www.san.org/documents/assp/Ci...ilian_Site_Concepts_063005_PWG.pdf

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
Personally, I would rather pay $14 billion to go into an airport rather than city officials pockets; Petco Park and Qualcomm Stadium anyone?

The per pax cost on such a scenario would be $40-45. Denver International is at $14.50. Not even in range of being supported by the airlines.

[Edited 2006-03-15 20:30:47]
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 113):
It's a County, not City issue.

My mistake (again), thanks.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 113):
Try again. The endangered species are on the Federal List. I'm with ya, but it's not an option for a replacement airport. RNP maybe with 737's, and that's a big maybe.

Grrrr...Federal...now thats hard to work around...

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 112):
No kidding, be prepared! Everybody, but a few, want to run the military out and if you tell them to hold on for a momment, they say, HOW DARE YOU GO AGAINST WHAT I SAY!!!!

I have 3 older sisters, all three of them are evil (one of them calls me fart-biscuit, rat-brain, turtle-butt, etc.) So honestly, I could care less. Big grin
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
CX747
Posts: 6554
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
The city wants Miramar because its the CHEAPEST route, end of story.

I'm glad that somebody finally acknowledged why the county wants Miramar. It is funny that other people here say the same thing just in round about ways. Really all I was looking for was them to admit why they wanted what isn't theirs to begin with. More than likely, the county it will get Miramar and the Marines will move elsewhere.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 104):
Then I'm glad I retired. God help the Air Force.

Thanks for the support. All I really wanted is what you have finally provided. A link to something other than Miramar and how civilians can use their own money and land to fullfill their needs.

[Edited 2006-03-15 23:08:04]

[Edited 2006-03-15 23:12:03]
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 115):
A link to something other than Miramar and how civilians can use their own money and land to fullfill their needs.

You mean to a solution that is so cost prohibitive it would never be built? Keep trying.

According to you, the military making better use of 3 significantly underutilized airfields with a 20 miles radius of Miramar and never facing a BRAC again is less favorable than completely destroying an ecosystem and paying 2-3 times more for air travel than any where in the world imploding San Diego's economy. Incredible.

[Edited 2006-03-16 00:16:54]
 
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Coronado990
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 111):
The city wants Miramar because its the CHEAPEST route, end of story.

Come on now. It is very centrally located as well.

As far as cheap goes...when was the cheapest route considered a bad thing? Would you prefer that they seek the most expensive route without knowing for sure (and I mean for sure in triplet!) the cheapest and most central site will not work?

In my opinion, this is all driven by land developers wanting Lindbergh's property for high rise condos no one can afford anyway. They could care less if we have to commute 100 miles to some remote airport or even if the Marines leave town if that is what it takes.

Without Miramar, everyone knows trying to find 3500 flat acres in this terrain is absurd. Therefore, I strongly believe we are going to have to settle for keeping Lindbergh for domestic and then supplement it with a 1000 acre one-runway beauty that can accommodate a 12000 foot runway. There is only one spot, marketing wise, that can support this kind of facility and it is the choice I think I will eventually gravitate towards.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
irelayer
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 117):
As far as cheap goes...when was the cheapest route considered a bad thing? Would you prefer that they seek the most expensive route without knowing for sure (and I mean for sure in triplet!) the cheapest and most central site will not work?

Agreed...Miramar is cheap, central, and incredibly convinient (in terms of politics, timing, etc etc...). Thus the authority wants it because it is the IDEAL location for a new airport. Cheapness is good in this case. To some it is an unrealistic assumption that Miramar will someday (partially or completely) close and allow for a civilian airport...but things change rapidly.

I love people who employ the cliche of "thinking outside the box" because it allows for some measure of hand waving. Hand wave all you want...if the solution was as trivial as CX747 makes it out to be, the San Diego airport issue would not be as contentious as it is. The net result of the "thinking outside the box" philosophy are the numerous outlandish, unworkable solutions to the problem contributed by people with nothing better to do than go off on flights of fancy. The way this is going, the next proposal will be a shift to VTOL aircraft to do away with airports all together. Miramar is rapidly becoming the only solution...plain and simple.

-IR
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 116):
never facing a BRAC again

I am amazed that you keep on bringing up the BRAC thing. You, of all people being previous military, know that the military has to be prepared in all situations. A plan is made up for everything. The fact that Miramar was on the BRAC is not a surprise at all. Not every base goes on the BRAC, granted, but every base does go through a review process. It was Miramars turn and in this case they had to come up with a plan in case Miramar was picked to be shut down. They take these plans and review it and along with needs of the military, impact on the economy, loss of jobs, and other aspects are taken into effect and evaluated. The fact that Miramar wasn't picked in this go around means that the military has plans for it in the future. So, in your process of running the military out of San Diego take that into consideration.

Quoting IRelayer (Reply 118):
The net result of the "thinking outside the box" philosophy are the numerous outlandish, unworkable solutions to the problem contributed by people with nothing better to do than go off on flights of fancy.

Taking in the fact that Miramar is not going to close down and that the military says "NO" to a joint use facility what is your plan oh mighty smart one! Since we, who say okay to what is happening, are looking elsewhere and apparently are on some "flight of fancy".
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
CX747
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:39 am

Hello all, how is everyone?

I don't think the matter is trivial nor do I think a solution is easily had. I'm sure that Miramar is a perfect solution. My main concern is that your perfect solution doesn't belong to you. The current tenant has politely said no. In the long run I actually believe that Miramar will close and become a public airport. If we closed George and Norton then Miramar can go to. 30+ years from now maybe it will be Pendleton itself. There is plenty of empty desert in Nevada and Arizona. Dislodging several thousand Marines and a 100+ aircraft is much easier than ticking off the voting public. I guess its that utter lack of caring about the military that gets to me. I'm saddened at some of the posts to say the least.

My future military service was brought up by myself earlier, and then by others so I thought I would comment on it and why it has me defending Miramar.

I have always wanted to join the service and have always loved flying. Putting the two together was my dream and thanks to God it came true. I don't care where I'm based and to be honest don't know how much I'm going to get paid at the end of the day. That doesn't matter to me. In the future when I have a wife and kids it will but right now it is about serving my country and flying.

Not everyone though has joined for the same reasons. Others have joined for the benefits, some for women who love uniforms and other have joined to see the world. The military is now all voluntary. If you continue to take away the great locations to be based at, it just shrinks the pool of candidates who want to join. The Army missed their recruiting goal last year and other services are having the same problems. Why is a kid who doesn't know anything about the military going to leave home, go through hell, get paid $18,000 dollars a year and live in Yuma? Miramar or San Diego can get a young man or girl thinking, it sweetens what at some points is an extremely bitter pill. That's were my red light goes on, that's where I have a problem. In a day and age where the military has to be competitive to get applicants, your just slamming the door on another perk or bonus.

Think about all the bases that have been closed in California and other "hot spots". Heck, there used to be a Myrtle Beach AFB with A-10s. If you don't think that 18 yr old kids want to go to someplace really nice, then you don't know kids. I'm not looking at this as a lie or hey, "Join the Marines and live in San Diego" speech. What Miramar offers though is a perk, a bonus to an aircraft maintainer or mechanic who just spent a year plus in the desert. I don't need a perk or a bonus because my overall future job is a heck of a perk. Some of the kids I oversee need a perk or some sort of incentive. When I listen to them talk excitedly, they talk about the mission, they talk about serving their country and how cool it is to be able to live in xxxx. Sorry to Yuma, but it just isn't it.

Sorry for my rant and I'm sure that it went way off topic.

[Edited 2006-03-16 01:52:25]

[Edited 2006-03-16 01:53:33]
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:37 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 120):
Not everyone though has joined for the same reasons.

I joined the Navy because I love my country and I want to serve my country. Ever since I was a kid that is what I wanted to do. It sickens me to see people who value their freedom and talk about their freedom and who cry "FREE SPEECH" and turn around and dis the military, spit on the military, and not see the good the military has brought. Sure it has its problems...who doesn't, but if they weren't around imagine where we would be.
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting CX747 (Reply 120):
The current tenant has politely said no. In the long run I actually believe that Miramar will close and become a public airport.

The landlord has the final say, and that's not the tenant.

Quoting CX747 (Reply 120):
The military is now all voluntary. If you continue to take away the great locations to be based at, it just shrinks the pool of candidates who want to join.

What's wrong with being based at Pendleton, North Island, Point Loma, or Navy outlying field? Miramar as joint use ensures those bases never close protecting the pool and are better utilized saving taxpayer money. At the same time converting Miramar from a $461 million a year contributor to the economy into a $7 Billion a year economic engine. Imagine the MAC facility potential. All the MAC flights at congested LAX could easily shift to a commercial airport at Miramar and be closer the the bases the LAX MAC Terminal currently supports.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 119):
The fact that Miramar wasn't picked in this go around means that the military has plans for it in the future.

Miramar, and all San Diego bases were protected by Duke Cunningham and the head of the BRAC commission who lives in Rancho Santa Fe and was nominated by Cunningham. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why it remained open.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 121):
I joined the Navy because I love my country and I want to serve my country. Ever since I was a kid that is what I wanted to do. It sickens me to see people who value their freedom and talk about their freedom and who cry "FREE SPEECH" and turn around and dis the military, spit on the military, and not see the good the military has brought. Sure it has its problems...who doesn't, but if they weren't around imagine where we would be.

Being a volunteer force, we all join for the same reason (at least most). Given that, we also have a duty to support the community that supports us wherever that community might be. It's not a one way street, it's a partnership. When a community is facing a major economic shortcoming, such as air transportation infrastructure and members shrug it off when there are four airfields in a region that are underutilized there comes a time where you have to look at it from the perspective of what is and isn't wasteful. A solution should then be sought that benefits both the military and the community. Joint use of Miramar does just that.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 117):
In my opinion, this is all driven by land developers wanting Lindbergh's property for high rise condos no one can afford anyway. They could care less if we have to commute 100 miles to some remote airport or even if the Marines leave town if that is what it takes

It'll be a casino. A good chunck of it is indian land. If not a major shipping port for the Port District as it would revert to them, but they are prohibited from using it as an airport. As for developers.. Read plenty of ariticles about the Airport fighting with developers around SAN, Miramar and all the other airports in the county.

[Edited 2006-03-16 02:10:20]
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:37 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 122):
Joint use of Miramar does just that.

The problem is that you have been going back and forth between arguements in running the military out of Miramar to joint use efforts....which one is it?
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 123):
The problem is that you have been going back and forth between arguements in running the military out of Miramar to joint use efforts....which one is it?

Always been joint use, but supporting moving a mix of aircraft to make it work. People that say all of those operations have to be at Miramar are the ones not thinking out of the box. There are plenty of other things going at Miramar besides flying. A prison for one. Base housing, Support facilities, Reserve flying units, Helos, Ospreys (half going to Pendleton anyway) and MAC flights. The proposed airport uses the existing runway (but rebuilt because it's 40+ years old) and another new runway about 4,300' south of it with terminals in the middle and access to the terminals from the Freeway without going through the main gate. The only thing that actually needs to be remedied is the touch and go operations and removal of F-18 training. The training will be gone (2017) by the time an airport would open (2020-2023) and the touch and go's can go to another airfield in the area. What makes sense on moving the F-35's is the single basing solution for a very expensive aircraft that is facing a landslide of budget problems.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 10:35 am

CX747, I must tell you I appreciate the sacrifice you will be making, and the loyalty you are showing to your country. We should all be proud that people like you are willing to serve our country.

On the subject of San Diego, I am just curious, how familiar are you with San Diego, and California in general? I really get the impression that you are an extremly informed outsider --- not really a bad thing, but I feel it alters you opinion, and you will never have a real feel for SD the way Coronado990, Boeing7e7 or Phuebner and others do. It is my honest opinion that the Military has other options. Most Californians seem to feel that the last couple of rounds of Base closures were political in nature, and aimed at "getting back" at California. Miramar is expendable to the Military, and the cynic in me says the only reason it was not closed was part of the political punishment to California.

I really don't see how anyone can drive around SD, and not come up with the Conclusion that Miramar is the best logical choice for an airport. I think Coronado990 made one of the best point in this discussion, what will San Diego do when after spending $10 billion dollars or so to build an airport in El Centro or somewhere, and than the Military says, "Oh BTW, Miramar is now available for a public airport". Please don't forget, that the people of San Diego are tax payers also, and they are not being greedy by asking the Military to consider other options.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:08 am

Two UCSD professors shed a different light on the discussion:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...b/20060317/news_lz1e17bernste.html

Today, as San Diego sees its developmental trajectory compromised by an outmoded and inadequate airport, the city turns to its long-standing institutional partner for assistance and support. And all the Navy has had to say to date is the equivalent of “drop dead.” The lessons of the past make plain that the citizens of San Diego have every reason to expect better than that from the United States Navy.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4711
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RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:05 am

Also from that same article, there is a brief history of the workings between the armed forces (specifically the Navy) and the city of San Diego.

There has been tremendous amounts of cooperation in the past, and this has been a two-way street. We San Diegans take great pride in our continuous and unwavering support of our armed forces, and will ALWAYS continue to do so in the future.

Examples of San Diego's support:

Quote:
Navy warships have made San Diego a regular port of call since the mid-1800s, and in 1900 the Navy took its first steps to establish a permanent base in the city, a fuel depot on Point Loma. Then, in 1915-1916, San Diego Congressman William Kettner led efforts to create a permanent base for the Marines in San Diego – the city's first major military installation.

The terms of the real estate transactions making this possible cemented the way San Diego and the Navy dealt with each other for years to come. First, the private sellers of the 238-acre “Dutch Flats” agreed to forgo all profit on the sale. Second, the city offered to deed the adjoining 500 acres of municipal tidelands free of charge to the Navy Department.

In 1917, the city of San Diego allowed the Navy to use Balboa Park as a training station for $1 per year. Shortly thereafter, the city donated the land on and around Inspiration Point as the permanent site of Naval Hospital San Diego.

The decision regarding the hospital propelled other efforts on behalf of the fleet. Between 1919 and 1920, the city donated the sites that became the Naval Training Station at Loma Portal, the naval shipyard at 32nd Street, and the supply depot and pier at the foot of Broadway. Special elections authorizing these gifts yielded near-unanimous ballots in support of the land transfers.

The Navy's support of San Diego:

Quote:
The relationship between the city and the Navy soon evolved into one of mutual support, respect and appreciation. In 1937, retired Admiral Joseph M. Reeves thus characterized the partnership: “I know of no city [other than San Diego] where the people are more intelligently appreciative of the service of the Navy to our country. I know of no city where the Navy in its work has received greater moral and material assistance.”

San Diegans offered enthusiastic support for naval expansion in their midst while the Navy built much of the city's essential infrastructure. For example, in 1927, the Navy committed itself to complete major elements of the Nolen Plan, an ambitious agenda of civic improvements that included the waterfront and Harbor Drive. Dredging out San Diego Bay and filling in the shoreline – with the explicit purpose of creating a harbor for shared naval and commercial use – was another huge cooperative venture begun in 1913 and still under way in the 1990s.

A Naval Electronic Laboratory at Point Loma and massive naval funding for the Scripps Institution of Oceanography solidified San Diego's role in World War II. It also guaranteed that the city would remain a center of technological research and development in areas of major concern to the fleet – meteorology, oceanography, underwater acoustics and sonar. That legacy continues to this day in the work of such state-of-the-art naval facilities as SPAWAR (Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command), located just east of Lindbergh Field itself.

And finally, it is not a snipe at any armed forces, but a reminder to all:

Quote:
In its aggressive rejection of suggestions for joint-use aviation facilities in the region, the Navy has disowned over a century of history that speaks to an enduring partnership between the fleet and the city. Of course it is true that the Navy has for many years brought jobs and opportunities for development to the San Diego region. But it is equally true that San Diego has consistently gifted its resources, real estate and political will to the needs of the service.

Today, as San Diego sees its developmental trajectory compromised by an outmoded and inadequate airport, the city turns to its long-standing institutional partner for assistance and support. And all the Navy has had to say to date is the equivalent of “drop dead.” The lessons of the past make plain that the citizens of San Diego have every reason to expect better than that from the United States Navy.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
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Coronado990
Posts: 1539
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 127):
For example, in 1927, the Navy committed itself to complete major elements of the Nolen Plan, an ambitious agenda of civic improvements that included the waterfront and Harbor Drive. Dredging out San Diego Bay and filling in the shoreline -- with the explicit purpose of creating a harbor for shared naval and commercial use -- was another huge cooperative venture begun in 1913 and still under way in the 1990s.

I have a copy of John Nolan Plan from 1926 right in front of me. One of the reasons Lindbergh Field was created was to relieve North Island from civilian traffic since it was a popular Naval flight school back then. Kind of ironic.

Another ironic point in the report is that Navy and Marine Park was axed when the Navy extended Lindbergh's runway underneath MCRD during WWII. It was envisioned to have canals much like Venice when that was filled in from bay dredging to accommodate the bigger aircraft carriers that called San Diego home and not an airport terminal complex as it is today.

Now that NOV is getting closer, it comes down to two things on this issue....

Do you want to deal with this NIMBY...."Not in My Back Yard".
Or this NIMBY..."Not in the Military's Back Yard".

Choose one, both can be fearsome! Mom or the Drill Instructor.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 128):
Choose one, both can be fearsome! Mom or the Drill Instructor

I just hate to consider what the traffic will be like with the poor access to the airport with no solution. Imagine the nutty professors even conservative number of 24 million passengers when there's 17 million today. Not like you can put a flyover form the I-5 across the runway, or even around it for that matter. Nothing inside the 2,500' before the threshold area is allowed anymore above 46'. I suppose you could build elevated access roads from the I-5 down Grape and Hawthorne so no one has to stop for the lights or trains/trolley. Pretty much knocks out access to Little Italy.

I want to be a fly on this wall:

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/...c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=1270899&ct=1738947

[Edited 2006-03-17 23:35:13]
 
Trvlr
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 129):
I want to be a fly on this wall:

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/...c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=1270899&ct=1738947

I will be. Looks like the meeting is public.

Aaron G.
 
phuebner
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:37 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:13 am

Low Landing

Now you might think this is cool, which I think it is, but this is how Coronado beach will look like if it becomes a major airport. It will ruin this beautiful beach.
Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Tue Mar 21, 2006 10:37 pm

Debate results:

Interesting admission by the UCSD professor....

Carson said it would be preposterous to pick the Yuha Desert site in Imperial County, one of two civilian sites under review. The 100-mile distance and cost of such a facility, he argued, would kill demand through ticket-price increases just as effectively as the steps he advocates for Lindbergh.

Well duh.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060321/news_1m21airport.html

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/...?c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=412359&ct=2071517

[Edited 2006-03-21 14:38:36]
 
User avatar
Coronado990
Posts: 1539
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 132):
Carson said it would be preposterous to pick the Yuha Desert site in Imperial County, one of two civilian sites under review.

I wonder how WN would react if the airport was moved out that far. I willing to bet they would pay the TIJ airport to just pave a taxiway onto this side of the fence and build a 12 gate terminal there. TIJ would make a mint from the landing fee's.

If you think about it, if for some stupid reason Yuha came to fruition, TIJ could really take advantage of being the only close-in airport in metro San Diego.
SFO=NoCal LAX=SoCal SAN=LoCal
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:15 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 133):
If you think about it, if for some stupid reason Yuha came to fruition, TIJ could really take advantage of being the only close-in airport in metro San Diego.

No doubt. If the option is to build a maglev, they better run it to PHX and LAS because WN and HP aren't going to run those routes anymore. Airlines would have a fit. Desert = Spirit of St. Louis/Mirabel (Spelling).

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