AA JFK Expansion?

AA767400 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:14 am

What happen to AA's plans for new service out of JFK?

I know NCL got canned, but what about the wish list and the one 757 they have flying around with winglets?

Any information will be appreciated.

steeler83 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:44 am

I just did a google search on "American Airlines and JFK" and this is one of the links that showed up...

http://www.dmjmhn.aecom.com/MarketsAndServices/40/28/index.jsp

Apparently construction appears to be underway for a massive 55-gate terminal for AA and American Eagle, slated for completion in 2007. This will be the new gateway to the UK and handle 14 million passengers a day... There are also four pics on this site. That proposed terminal is massive!!

ramerinianair · Thu Mar 16, 2006 6:47 am

How many more gates do the new facilities offer over the old?
SR

steeler83 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:23 am

Just out of curiosity, is this an expansion of an existing terminal, or is this a whole new terminal building? Terminals 8 and 9 have American gates, with Terminal 9 being entirely operated by AA and AA Eagle; that terminal has 10 gates while terminal 8 has 24. I think that only a handful of the gates on terminal 8 are operated by AA though. All together, it looks like AA has about 15 - 20 gates at JFK... If this is a new terminal to solely by run by AA, it looks like AA will be establishing a massive hub at JFK, that would total up to over 70 gates...

superhub · Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
Apparently construction appears to be underway for a massive 55-gate terminal for AA and American Eagle, slated for completion in 2007.

Actually, the first phase is already open since summer 2005.

http://www.aa.com/content/amrcorp/pressReleases/2005_07/27_jfk.jhtml

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
Just out of curiosity, is this an expansion of an existing terminal, or is this a whole new terminal building?

It is a totally new terminal. But it is now called terminal 9 as it initially replaces the old terminal 9. Soon..terminal 8 will be knocked down to make way for the new terminal 9 expansion.

AA767400 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 8:32 am

I know they are in the process right now of building the concourse that sticks out of the left hand side of that final design pic. That is where customs and immigration will be, which will be a much needed touch to the project since the current facility is run down.

Question is will QF,EI,LA,MA, and RJ move into the new terminal? And will IB decide to return? I know that AY decided to remain in the current terminal because the manager likes the people there. Whether that's true or not who knows.

I know on a whole the project was reduced somewhat, and now has less gates than they first started off with. But still more than the currently have, and an overall better terminal.

Thanks for the site steeler83. smile

STT757 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
Apparently construction appears to be underway for a massive 55-gate terminal for AA and American Eagle, slated for completion in 2007. This will be the new gateway to the UK and handle 14 million passengers a day... There are also four pics on this site. That proposed terminal is massive!!

The project has been drastically scaled back, when complete it will have less sq ft than originally envisioned when launched in '99 and have only about 39 gates out of a planned 55.

AA787 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:10 am

However the 39 gates is still an increase from the 23 they were operating out of during the construction.

AA787

AirRuss · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
handle 14 million passengers a day

dang that's a lot of people! Silly

spartanmjf · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting AirRuss (Reply 8):
dang that's a lot of people!

Must be those new AA A380's....

AirRuss · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Spartanmjf (Reply 9):
Must be those new AA A380's....

Let's see.... scratchchin

Using the 55-gate proposal and a high-density Y-configuration of 1,000 passengers crowded

, 14,000,000 pax per day would equal 1 A380 every 6 minutes at each of the gates, 24 hours a day. bigthumbsup

Can JFK even land 550 flights per hour? razz

I seriously want to work there Big grin

MCMAHONSMR · Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:43 pm

I traveled through T9 last week on a trip out to LAX and I was amazed with the new facility. I'm travelling to DCA tomorrow on AA and am bringing my camera to do a trip report so be on the lookout for pics next week.

steeler83 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting AirRuss (Reply 8):
dang that's a lot of people!

Something else to make that seem large... PIT barely serves 10-12 million!!!! And the 55 gates (although someone posted that this number is now reduced), that's how many gates PIT's old Greater PIT terminal used to have before they tore that down and built the current landside and airside terminals... I would love to see this thing built!!! I am sure that this project would put JFK back on the top 10 list for busiest airports...

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 5):
Thanks for the site steeler83.

You're welcome any time. Pleasure to help aht!!! Big grin

CentPIT · Thu Mar 16, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
PIT barely serves 10-12 million!!!!

This number will once again grow and is growing now!

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
And the 55 gates (although someone posted that this number is now reduced), that's how many gates PIT's old Greater PIT terminal used to have before

PIT currently has 100 gates available for use. I am not sure who said it was reduced. Watch the facts before you throw them out here. Wink

CRGsFuture · Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:05 pm

I think he means 14 million a year, 40,000 a day as it says in the article.

steeler83 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 13):
PIT currently has 100 gates available for use. I am not sure who said it was reduced. Watch the facts before you throw them out here.

Yeah, I know it does. It actually has 75 gates in use, the very ends of concurses C and D were left open for any necessary expansions, according to a PIT link I found while doing a google search. If that information is wrong, then that site is inaccurate...

I was talking about the old terminal along what is now business 60 in Moon Twp... As far as the reduced terminal, I was referring to the proposed AA terminal we were discussing in the thread. Someone posted that it was scaled back a little, and that is what I was referring to. Sorry for any confusion...

ckfred · Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:40 pm

I think the gate reduction was for the portion to be used by Eagle. AA has cut Eagle flying out of JFK significantly with the rise of B6.

On the other hand, the terminal still has the same number of gates for mainline aircraft.

planetime · Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:35 pm

Any international expansion American is planning out of JFK ? Couple of billion $$$'s has to have some major expansion plans in it.

jfr · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:25 pm

Following up on a random comment in an earlier post: Yes, the terminal will have 380-compatible gates.

Another comment: it's a miracle this project ever got finished. Taking over T8 from United; building the whole bloody thing on a site that would continue to serve millions of people per year throughout the construction phase; dealing with the Port!

And then there was 9/11. When everyone thought AA was going to pull in their horns, Don Carty reaffirmed the project straightaway that same tragic week. Just imagine the leap of faith that took.....a whopping USD 1.3B investment during those dark days.

My earliest involvement in it was in 1988, when JFK was still intending to build the wacky, ill-fated K2K program, and even then AA had been at the UA relocation for at least 10 years.

Next time you go there, just remember it took almost 30 years to achieve. Amazing......

Cadet57 · Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:42 pm

Does this have anything to do with the DL expansion at JFK?

NYC777 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
The project has been drastically scaled back, when complete it will have less sq ft than originally envisioned when launched in '99 and have only about 39 gates out of a planned 55.

True the main reduction in gate capacity was due to scaling back American Eagle ops at JFK thus they reduced the number of RJ gates at the terminal. All the mainline gates have been retained as far as I know.

AA767400 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 20):
True the main reduction in gate capacity was due to scaling back American Eagle ops at JFK thus they reduced the number of RJ gates at the terminal. All the mainline gates have been retained as far as I know.

Yeah STT757 has been saying this since AA scaled back the project. But the bottom line is that this is a newer and better facility overall.

Where is Mark to shade some light on any new flying out of JFK. Last I heard he said that JFK-DUB was on, due to the fact that JFK-NCL was dropped before started due to the expense of opening a new station which is not the case with DUB.

ZRH will revert back to it's original earlier time due to LX going to *A. Question is will they retain their codeshare, and for how long? Many airlines that are in different alliances codeshare together. Since this was a rather good relationship, I don't see why they could make it work.

Last I heard there is only one 757 and one 738 flying around with winglets. Were they supposed to roll out another 757 anytime soon after the first one? The whole plan seems to have frozen .

Humberside · Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 21):
Last I heard he said that JFK-DUB was on, due to the fact that JFK-NCL was dropped before started due to the expense of opening a new station which is not the case with DUB.

Wont a new DUB service also need a new SNN service?

HNL · Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
This will be the new gateway to the UK and handle 14 million passengers a day...

I think you mean year.

planetime · Fri Mar 17, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):
Does this have anything to do with the DL expansion at JFK?

No the AA expansion at JFK has been planned out since late 90's. DL was supposed to make a huge expansion terminal wise but they got cash strapped after announcing it. No DL is doing expansion flights wise only and minor terminal improvements.

steeler83 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting HNL (Reply 23):

I think you mean year

Yeah, thanks for correcting me on that... I meant 14 million a YEAR, 40,000 per DAY!!! (14 million people a day, that would look like the entire city of Tokyo under one large roof...) A few others corrected me as well. Thanks for correcting me; I can't believe I mistyped that...

runway23 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 21):
ZRH will revert back to it's original earlier time due to LX going to *A. Question is will they retain their codeshare, and for how long? Many airlines that are in different alliances codeshare together. Since this was a rather good relationship, I don't see why they could make it work.

AA and Swiss codeshare ends at the end of this month. Sad to see a long partnership be ended Sad

qqflyboy · Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:16 pm

I spoke a few months ago with AA's project manager for the new terminal and he said AA is trying to get the Port to take on T8. The terminal no longer needs to be demoed since that side of the new terminal is the part that was axed. He said it will cost a lot of money to tear down T8... a move no longer necessary to meet expansion plans. I haven't heard anything recently on where AA stands on that front. If they can get the Port to take over the terminal, it's more room for another carrier. We'll see.

As far as flying goes, the planned international expansion is on hold... at least for now. AA recently worked with a consulting group who told AA to curb expansion until they made a full year profit. That is expected to happen this year, so the expansion plans, although scaled back to start, should get under way next year. This includes the additional 757 transatlantic flying. AA has every intention, in the short and long term, to shrink domestically and expand in international markets.

Do keep in mind AA is taking delivery of two new T7s this year and begins service from Chicago to Shanghai in a couple of weeks (April 1). Also, AA begins the long anticipated upgrade of it's J-class product in the next couple of months. Still a busy year for AA... and 2007 will prove to be even more busy as expansion plans come to fruition.

steeler83 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:40 pm

I wonder how this looks next to DFW... I know that is the fortress hub for AA. It looks like AA will have over 60 to 70 gates total at JFK with this new terminal... How many does DFW have, and how do daily flights compare or contrast...

jfklganyc · Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:56 pm

"I spoke a few months ago with AA's project manager for the new terminal and he said AA is trying to get the Port to take on T8. The terminal no longer needs to be demoed since that side of the new terminal is the part that was axed. "

How could that be?

I thought they axed the RJ concourses. You mean to tell me that the whole East side of the terminal including the main concourse will not be built?

How the hell can AA leave the Terminal half finished? I mean I see how they can cut off the concourse, but how are they going to leave the main terminal? They can't leave it like that.

I'm sure the Port Authority wouldn't allow them to do that.

PJ

SESGDL · Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 28):
I wonder how this looks next to DFW... I know that is the fortress hub for AA. It looks like AA will have over 60 to 70 gates total at JFK with this new terminal... How many does DFW have, and how do daily flights compare or contrast...

AA's operations at DFW and JFK don't compare. AA's DFW hub is the second largest in the world, with over 750 daily flights to more than 150 destinations, carrying over 16,000,000 passengers yearly. AA at DFW has more than 70 gates and 3 of their own terminals. At JFK, AA doesn't even have over 150 flights and by no means dominates like it does at DFW. It is unlikely AA's operations at JFK will either be even close to as large as their ops at DFW simply due to the number of connecting passengers DFW gets.

Jeremy

kaitak744 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 30):

AA's operations at DFW and JFK don't compare. AA's DFW hub is the second largest in the world, with over 750 daily flights to more than 150 destinations, carrying over 16,000,000 passengers yearly. AA at DFW has more than 70 gates and 3 of their own terminals. At JFK, AA doesn't even have over 150 flights and by no means dominates like it does at DFW. It is unlikely AA's operations at JFK will either be even close to as large as their ops at DFW simply due to the number of connecting passengers DFW gets.

Well, DFW is a domestic hub. JFK is THE international hub for AA. They operate to every major U.S. city to every city they serve in Europe.

At DFW, you see alot of MD-80s and 737s. But at JFK, its 767s and 777s.

qqflyboy · Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 29):
How the hell can AA leave the Terminal half finished?

Terminal 8 is it's own, free-standing terminal and is complete. If AA were to leave it as is, any airline could come in and operate from it. Terminal 8 was originally scheduled to be demolished to make way for the new terminal, but the part of the new terminal that would have taken the place of T8 is no longer in the plans, and therefore, T8 doesn't need to be torn down. No work has begun on T8 itself. The work being done on the new terminal now is taking place where T9 used to be.

planetime · Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:53 pm

What is the eventual status of JFK to AA be when all its all set and done? Will it be the biggest International Hub such as how delta is keeping JFK or something else? I am guess that eventually when all set and done JFK will have 40 gates or so.

AA767400 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 29):
How the hell can AA leave the Terminal half finished? I mean I see how they can cut off the concourse, but how are they going to leave the main terminal? They can't leave it like that.

T8 is where an extension arm for Eagle was to be built.

Now that has been scrapped so there is no need to demolish T8, and an airline can come in and use it for their needs. The new T9 has all it needs without building that extension. The newer extension that is being built where T9 once was is for customs and immigration and international arrival gates.

STT757 · Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 28):
It looks like AA will have over 60 to 70 gates total at JFK with this new terminal...

That figure is way off, AA will have 39 gates all together when everything is finished.

BigGSFO · Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
Well, DFW is a domestic hub.

Actually it is more than a domestic hub - AA offers many many intertnational flights from DFW to Europe, Latin America, Canada and Japan.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
JFK is THE international hub for AA.

Arguably MIA is AA's largest international hub linking more cities in the USA to more international destinations than JFK. ORD would be 2nd.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
They operate to every major U.S. city to every city they serve in Europe.

Not to forget South America, Tokyo and the Caribbean! Smile

jfr · Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
Well, DFW is a domestic hub. JFK is THE international hub for AA. They operate to every major U.S. city to every city they serve in Europe.

I have to laugh at this. True, JFK is an important international hub for American, but come on.......Peter Dolara's Miami is their international monster, followed by JFK, DFW, ORD and SJU in that order.

At best, you can say that JFK is American's European gateway for many, but not all, of its domestic markets.

jfklganyc · Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:49 pm

No, look at the original picture.

The middle concourse, which is for mainline flights, extends to the east of the main terminal as well. This is where T8 stands.

The Eagle concourses that were eliminated were the two closest to the roadways.

Which again brings my question: is the Eastern portion of the middle (mainline) concourse being built or not?

To get to 39 gates, it would appear that they would have to build it.

Also, what happens to the eastern facade of the main terminal. Are they spending $1 billion to leave the facade half finished with a temporary wall on one side?

Something doesn't add up here. If anyone has an updated picture on the anticipated terminal it would be appreciated.

PJ

MAH4546 · Sat Mar 18, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
JFK is THE international hub for AA.

No, it is not. MIA is, always has been, likely always will be, despite JFK's undeniable important role in AA's international network. ORD is their second most important international hub, and then comes JFK.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 31):
hey operate to every major U.S. city to every city they serve in Europe.

No, they don't. They fly five Europe routes from JFK - Brussels, London Heathrow, Paris, Rome, and Zurich. They also fly to Shannon, Dublin, Manchester, Madrid, Frankfurt, London Gatwick, and Glasgow from others hubs.

NYC777 · Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 38):
No, look at the original picture.

The middle concourse, which is for mainline flights, extends to the east of the main terminal as well. This is where T8 stands.

The Eagle concourses that were eliminated were the two closest to the roadways.

Which again brings my question: is the Eastern portion of the middle (mainline) concourse being built or not?

To get to 39 gates, it would appear that they would have to build it.

Also, what happens to the eastern facade of the main terminal. Are they spending $1 billion to leave the facade half finished with a temporary wall on one side?

Something doesn't add up here. If anyone has an updated picture on the anticipated terminal it would be appreciated.

PJ

I think you're right on. I don't see how they're going to get to 39 gates withou building the Eastern half of the terminal (sans the RJ gates which is also removed from the western portion). Without the Eastern portion the terminal is going to look awful and will not have the gate capacity that AA is saying.

B797 · Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:46 am

The new terminal would be a major difference from former 9 which was horrible.

Horus · Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 am

Is AA likely to resurrect their JFK-CAI route before 2008? 2005 US tourist numbers to Egypt returned to their pre-9/11 levels and with economic improvements in the country I would hope to see a US carrier gracing Egyptian skies soon. Note pre-9/11 TWA/AA had 6x weekly B763 flights routing JFK-CAI-RUH and DL had 3x weekly JFK-CAI-DXB flights with the MD-11.

Horus

OzarkD9S · Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 42):

Is AA likely to resurrect their JFK-CAI route before 2008? 2005 US tourist numbers to Egypt returned to their pre-9/11 levels and with economic improvements in the country I would hope to see a US carrier gracing Egyptian skies soon. Note pre-9/11 TWA/AA had 6x weekly B763 flights routing JFK-CAI-RUH and DL had 3x weekly JFK-CAI-DXB flights with the MD-11.

I doubt very highly if AA will send it's own metal to the Mideast anytime in the forseeable future. Between BA codeshare, and RJ soon to join oneworld, they have no need.

STT757 · Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 40):
think you're right on. I don't see how they're going to get to 39 gates withou building the Eastern half of the terminal

There's the possibility that they are going to have less than 39 gates, but are not publicly stating this to save face.

jfklganyc · Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:29 pm

Something had to be built on the east side. Inside and out, the east side is a temporary wall.

Something needs to be done. I wish we could see a pic of what.

PJ

rjpieces · Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:47 pm

Does anyone have any recent pics? It would be great to see a picture of this along with the debate over what remains to be built...

steeler83 · Sat Mar 18, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 35):
That figure is way off, AA will have 39 gates all together when everything is finished.

That doesn't seem to make sense, tho. How many gates do they currently have? This expansion in the beginning called for an additional 50-some gates. Even if its scaled back somewhat that is still a lot of additional gates this terminal will have (unless they cut it back to maybe 15 or 20 additional gates, which I highly doubt). That, coupled with the existing gates, and AA has a pretty sizable operation at JFK, I believe, how does that total a measley 39 gates??? Maybe I thought wrong about AA at JFK before this proposed new AA terminal. I thought that this would bring their gate totals at JFK to about 70 and mimmick DFW's AA function, but someone told me otherwise. I didn't think B6 would be making it into PIT this year... Well, do I really need to say anymore about that...

Horus · Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 43):
I doubt very highly if AA will send it's own metal to the Mideast anytime in the forseeable future. Between BA codeshare, and RJ soon to join oneworld, they have no need.

It's disappointing that perceived and to be honest unfounded fears can get in the way of a viable business operation. However as you said the OW alliance should be adequate in serving the market for now. But I'm still optimistic a US airline will start services to CAI next year US Airlines And Egypt (by Horus Mar 3 2005 in Civil Aviation)

Horus

OzarkD9S · Sun Mar 19, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Horus (Reply 48):

It's disappointing that perceived and to be honest unfounded fears can get in the way of a viable business operation.

You are correct. In a perfect world our differences would be celebrated, not be a source of fear.

Nonetheless, AA is AMERICAN Airlines, an all-too obvious target for the "Death To America" crowd. And I don't mean to suggest that the majority of Middle Easterners/Muslims/Arabs are a threat, but the track record isn't too hot in that area right now...and neither side is innocent.

Rant over.

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