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trekster
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:06 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...arch/27/newsid_2531000/2531063.stm

Just seen this on the BBC website.

The worlds worst air crash happened shocking the world.

In the end it turned out the pilot of the KLM, started his take off run with out clearence, and crashed into the top deck of the panam jet.
No one got of the klm plane,but there were surviors on the pan-am
A sad day
Where does the time go???
 
emrecan
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:11 pm

RIP for all those who have lost their lives there...

[Edited 2006-03-27 12:23:35]
 
mbj2000
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:22 pm

I saw a report on TV yesterday showing a lot of details about the crash.
It was not solely KLM captain's fault, it was bad weather, the PanAm 747 missing the right exit, "tunnel vision" of the KLM captain, interferences in the radio communication and last but not least a flight engineer who was not brave enough to speak up against the captain when he heard the PanAm 747 was still on the runway...

Yes indeed a sad day...

Quoting Trekster (Thread starter):
In the end it turned out the pilot of the KLM, started his take off run with out clearence, and crashed into the top deck of the panam jet.
No one got of the klm plane,but there were surviors on the pan-am
A sad day
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
WesternA318
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:10 pm

Prayers to all those that lost loved ones on those flights.
 
isuA380B777
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:10 am

May they all RIP
There are several reasons for this crash as MBJ 2000 mentioned. Go to the following links if you are more interested

http://www.airmanshiponline.com/fall99/articoli/05a99-tenerife.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_Disaster
http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-pa1736.shtml

This is the KLM inflight magazine of 1970's. The captain in the photo is the very same captain who was operating the crashed air craft.

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747luvr
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KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:05 am

I remember this accident every year when I see 3/27...indeed a dark day in aviation. The captain for KLM die in this accident?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:45 am

From my familys their are two sides of the accident it has always been the oddest day of the year.

On one side you have Mr/Mrs Belluomini of East Sacramento, my Great-Aunt/Great-Uncle were aboard the Pan Am flight that originated in Los Angeles, they of course sadly perished. They were planning to fly KLM from Los Angeles or New York (I am not sure) to Amsterdam for a few days and then continue onwards on KLM from Amsterdam to Athens to meet up with the cruise, but opted to take Pan Am, because of a last minute engagement they had to attend at home in Sacramento.

A few days before they left for the cruise my Great-Aunt/Great-Uncle were at my Great-Grandparetns house and my Great-Grandfather remarked to my Great-Uncle that "one of these days all that flying is going to get you in trouble". They were taking a cruise to celebrate their 53rd Wedding Anniversary. The day of the accident, if I remember there was a news bulletin on the radio and my mother said "those poor people", several hours passed and my mother got the call that everyone dreads hearing. For me unless you have lost someone in a airplane accident, you can never know what it is like. It is a surreal feeling, and almost gut wrenching. It plays in your mind over and over again what they were doing at the exact moment the KLM impacted the Pan Am. I wondered if they were looking out the window, or were they talking to each other, or were they conversing with other passengers..

On a side note my family is Dutch/Italian, and in saying so KLM is a symbol of Nederlands around the World. And to many, including myself, a sense of national pride. KLM, is even after the accident the only choice to fly when going to Europe for our family.

[Edited 2006-03-27 21:00:36]
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lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Trekster (Thread starter):
with out clearance

It was not clear if he had clearance, which of course is the same as not having clearance, if you get me. Tower did not know where the Pan Am a/c was. It was all a very unlucky combination of circumstances.

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 5):
The captain for KLM die in this accident?

None on board the KL a/c survived.

I remember this day very well. I did not work for KL yet but everybody in The Netherlands was very affected by it and I remember my dad glued to the radio for days. it dominated the news for months.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
clippervictor
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:01 pm

I truly cannot believe that it has been 29 years. I was barely 7, when my family heard the news over the radio...No survivors on either aircraft. My father (George W. Warns) the engineer for Pan Am was fortunate, and did survive the crash. Fortunately for us, we got word from him that he was ok within a few hours. I will never forget that day, and will remember all of those that lost their lives, and their family members in that horrific crash.

May those that did not survive rest in peace, and know that many people out there think of them often. Also to those families who lost loved ones, may you find strength in another anniversary that your loved ones are in a better place!

Elyse A. Warns
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done. George W. Warns
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 8):
No survivors on either aircraft.

61 crew/passengers o/b PanAm survived.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
na
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:06 pm

Its scary to see the KLM-ad with that headline about punctuality. Because it was exactly that, the KLM captain in a rush to keep the delay as short as possible, that was the most immiadiate cause of this tragedy.
 
tu204
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:49 pm

We studied this crash on our second year.
The tower is also partly responsible. He used inproper terminology. If I recall correctly, something along the lines of "KLM, you are cleared to the papa beacon.....ect...." The KLM captain took this to be takeoff clearance and replied (also using inproper terminology) "*reads back atc*, and we are now at takeoff" The tower thought that he meant that he was holding short. Having heard this, the Clipper transmits "no, we are still taxiing down the runway, the clipper" at the exact same time that the ATC transmitted (meant for the KLM) "ok, stand by for takeoff, I will call you."
Now since these two messages were transmitted at the same time, both the ATC and the Clipper thought that they had transmitted, but in reality they blocked each other's transmissions so the KLM plane heard a 4 second long loud squeak.
So as you see, the KLM plane missed the two most important transmissions.
However, ATC then tells the Clipper to report when clear of the runway, to which the Clipper replies "Ok, we will report when we are clear"
These two transmissions sparked the debate in the KLM cocpit of whether the Clipper was still on the runway. The captain decided that he wasn't.

The thing that I do not understand is, when the KLM saw the Clipper on the runway, he pulled up excessively, so much that he had a serious tail strike (and according to official reports, left a pretty long GASH in the runway). Now I do understand why he really, really wanted to get up into the air, but pulling up so hard that your tail hits the runway is NOT the way to do it - that would actually slow the climb rate and had he managed to make it over the Clipper, he would have probably stalled and come right back down.

Btw, the photo on the BBC article you posted is of the KLM plane.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
kappel
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
I saw a report on TV yesterday showing a lot of details about the crash.
It was not solely KLM captain's fault, it was bad weather, the PanAm 747 missing the right exit, "tunnel vision" of the KLM captain, interferences in the radio communication and last but not least a flight engineer who was not brave enough to speak up against the captain when he heard the PanAm 747 was still on the runway...

I also saw the National Geographic documentary. The KLM aircraft was to fly to a different destination for more pax, fuel up for the flight to AMS. However, to save time, the captain ordered extra fuel to be taken onboard in Tenerife. The documentary said if this extra fuel was not onboard the KLM 747 might have made it over the PanAm 747. Whether it would have stalled even so, I don't know, but at least those people in the PA aircraft would not have died. I don't know if any of you believe in this, but seeing all those factors that made this incident (the bomb, communications breakdown, extra fuel, weather) it was almost like this accident was meant to happen, there was no avoiding it (kinda like Final Destination). It was their time. I know I'm not exactly consoling anybody who lost family, but I nkow the feeling. I lost loved ones on the PY crash as well, and that one also felt like it was meant to happen.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
clippervictor
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:26 am

[

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 9):
61 crew/passengers o/b PanAm survived

As I stated, my father (F/E PanAm) survived.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done. George W. Warns
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 13):
As I stated, my father (F/E PanAm) survived

One of the things that my family was suprized by after the accident was how caring and in touch Pan Am was with all of the families. We recieved letters, phone calls, and communications from Pan Am for a good 3 years after the accident. At the time of the accident many airlines were not prepared for what had happened. Many people were blaming the cockpit crew of both airlines, and there were rumors, if I remember correctly that the Control Tower employees were watching a soccer game on television while directing the aircraft around the airport. Of course that fueled the anger of many families.

For my family it has always been a struggle, and so many things happened that day. Not one party was solely to blame. Pan Am, and its cockpit crew were doing the best they could in the conditions they were given. KLM, was in the same situation. The Control Tower and the airport was not prepared in the 1970's to handle the amount of traffic it had on that day in 1977.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
HBJZA
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:14 am

I could be the reincarnation of one of the victims because my birth date is 27th march 1977 !!!!
 
GQfluffy
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 9):
Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 8):
No survivors on either aircraft.

61 crew/passengers o/b PanAm survived.

I think what he ment to say was that the radio was reporting there were no survivors, while in fact there were some...
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
clippervictor
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:15 am

It was a tragic accident, and many lost their lives, and families were devastated. To those survivors and families, my thoughts and prayers go out to you.
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done. George W. Warns
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:22 am

One of the more remarkable things, if not ironic that I heard were that passengers aboard the Pan Am flight were taking pictures of the scenery and the KLM 747 as they both sat on the apron prior to taxi. I know for a fact that this happened since my relatives personal belongings were returned, what was left of the belongings, and in them a camera, with some photos. They ranged from the Pan Am in LAX, the Midwest as they overflew enroute to JFK, a few photos of NYC from the air, a few from JFK airport, and 2 pictures from the Canary Islands. One was of mountains, taken prior to landing. And the other was a photo of scenery, with a part of the KLM in the foreground.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
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Fly-K
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:34 am

The video shows the location of the wrecks in the overview scene, really scary. I was just standing outside the fence four weeks ago and thought about it, watching an Iberia 747 land. The airport is rather small, with not much space between runway and perimeter, so one is practically near the spot where it happened.
Also in the video you can see some aircraft stranded after the crash (incl a BA L1011), I wonder how long it took until the crash scene was cleared and the airport reopened? There must have been hundreds or thousands passengers on all the diverted planes stranded on the island (am I right that TFS didn't exist yet back then?)
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
BCAL
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:12 am

In memory of the many passengers and crew who perished in the terrible accident, let us not again reopen the topic that has already been discussed many times on a.net and on many other websites. Rather than again attributing blame, people wishing to discuss the accident should visit http://www.tenerifecrash.com where you will find a transcript report written by the first officer on the flight deck of the PanAm 747, Robert Bragg, who survived the accident, and much further information.

RIP all those who perished in the accident
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Skyguy
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:41 am

One of the key problems amongst the several factors that contributed to this tragedy happening was the imperfect communication between the tower and the KLM. It so appeared that the communication equipment being used back then was not as sophisticated as what is presently used by airlines and ATC today. This meant that, at times, if two parties simultaneosly broadcast or sent out a message over the radio, one of the messages may not get heard by the other party.
It was suspected that this is exactly what may have happened when in the early 1980's tapes of the radio communications between the tower, ground control, KL & PA were analyzed again. It seemed that a critical message to KL from the tower to hold on the runway was not heard by the KL crew as they had at that exact moment initiated a transmission to the tower.
Modern technology and sophisticated equipment prevents this from happening now, and is another reason why ATC insists that all instructions to aircraft must be acknowledged by being repeated by the crew exactly as spoken by ATC or else ATC ring fences the aircraft or asks it to stop (if still taxiing in the airport).
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
clippervictor
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:23 am

Sorry BCAL,
I take offense to someone (Robert Bragg) capitalizing financially on the hundreds of deaths in this tragedy so many years after the fact. I have read the transcript, and much of it is implausible. To me, it is disrespectful of aviation and to those people whose lives were lost that day! EAW
If it weren't for the last minute, nothing would get done. George W. Warns
 
isuA380B777
Posts: 166
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 10):
Its scary to see the KLM-ad with that headline about punctuality. Because it was exactly that, the KLM captain in a rush to keep the delay as short as possible, that was the most immiadiate cause of this tragedy.

I was also thinking the same...

Quoting BCAL (Reply 20):
accident should visit http://www.tenerifecrash.com

The photos of the 747 cockpit are all wrong in this web site. Infact they looks like the flight deck of A340
Big version: Width: 640 Height: 427 File size: 33kb


Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 22):
Sorry BCAL,
I take offense to someone (Robert Bragg) capitalizing financially on the hundreds of deaths in this tragedy so many years after the fact. I have read the transcript, and much of it is implausible. To me, it is disrespectful of aviation and to those people whose lives were lost that day! EAW

I also 100% agree with you. We should not try to use dead people to earn money.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 22):
I take offense to someone (Robert Bragg) capitalizing financially on the hundreds of deaths in this tragedy so many years after the fact.

The premise of the video may be good, the intentions utterly deplorable. A few months back a friend of the family said they heard there was a dvd on the topic. I almost fell over since oddly enough until now I know of not one single film, or documentary dediated solely to the accident. Oddly I can say that many people, even adults here in the U.S. are unaware the accident ever happened.

Bragg is out for money, and the movie has a ton from what I have heard of almost comical reinactments of what happened. I can also tell you that it is my understanding that he had to get permission to release the DVD. Seeing as that our family was never contacted, he must not have thought it through(or the production company) to notify the families. Another family that we are still in contact with were not notified as well.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
isuA380B777
Posts: 166
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:13 pm

[quote=Clippervictor,reply=22]

Is the Captain Grubbs still alive?
 
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kl5147
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting IsuA380B777 (Reply 23):
Quoting Clippervictor (Reply 22):
Sorry BCAL,
I take offense to someone (Robert Bragg) capitalizing financially on the hundreds of deaths in this tragedy so many years after the fact. I have read the transcript, and much of it is implausible. To me, it is disrespectful of aviation and to those people whose lives were lost that day! EAW

I also 100% agree with you. We should not try to use dead people to earn money.

And so do I. As a dutchman who lost a relative in this terrible accident I find it very offensive to try to make money on this (or another) tragedy.
Besides that, some pics on that site, are according to me, even not related to the accident.
E.g In the gallery "Aftermath" Picture #31
http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/images/E042.jpg shows clearly a LH tail. Most probably D-ABYB, "Hessen" 19747/29 which crashed in Nairobi on 20 november 1974. And I am convinced that picture #26 http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/images/E035.jpg in the same gallery also is the D D-ABYB. It shows the big black radome, which all LH aircraft carried at that time.
In my opinion it is totally unrespectfull to all those vitctims for (ab)use those pictures.
"The world is just a click away!"
 
vunz
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting KL5147 (Reply 26):
Besides that, some pics on that site, are according to me, even not related to the accident.
E.g In the gallery "Aftermath" Picture #31
http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/images/E042.jpg shows clearly a LH tail. Most probably D-ABYB, "Hessen" 19747/29 which crashed in Nairobi on 20 november 1974. And I am convinced that picture #26 http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/images/E035.jpg in the same gallery also is the D D-ABYB. It shows the big black radome, which all LH aircraft carried at that time.
In my opinion it is totally unrespectfull to all those vitctims for (ab)use those pictures.


Add http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Crash/pages/E001.htm to that, there's the LH tail in view.

In http://www.tenerifecrash.com/gallery/Aftermath/pages/E006.htm you can make out the title 'Lu...' not part of KLM or PanAm also the scenery is totally different

[Edited 2006-03-29 14:41:23]
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:59 pm

They have used parts of the Nairobi accident for filming, and surely for drama as well. It is utterly amazing how far someone will go to make a buck in the states.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
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turk223
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RE: KLM & Pan Am Crash Today In 1977

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:22 am

I thought I was the only one confused by the tail - clearly LH.

I also agree that the memory of the victims should be respected...

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