Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:03 am

Some new, interesting news came out today.. thought I would share..

Triangle Business Journal

1. Landing fees rising 62% from $0.97/1000 lb to $1.57/1000 lb.
2. Airport space fees rising 10% from $80 to $88/sq ft.
3. RDU overall cost per emplanement is $4.00, making it the 10th least expensive out of the 35 mid-sized US airports.

A. Landing fees raised as a result of the transfer of mainline flights to RJ. RDU wasn't able to collect enough funds, thus raising landing fees to recoup.
B. $0.50 of the increase of landing fees goes to pay for debt for Terminal C taxiway relocation and apron expansion loans.
C. The landing fees are still not the most expensive paid at RDU. In 2003-2004, landing fees was $1.67/1000 lbs.

Another article found details the need for the new terminal..

Airport Business

To sum it up:

The Problems:
1. Cramps quarters in Terminal A preventing added flights
2. Shortage of gates made some airlines pass over RDU
3. Lack of space made Full service restaurnats pass over RDU
4. RJ packed wingtip to wingtip due to lack of gate space
5. Passenger had to walk between jets to get in/out of the terminal

The Solution:
1. Legacy airlines in one terminal with 40+ gates, Low cost in other wtih 20+ gates
2. Nearly 100% self-service check-in with 160 multi-carrier kiosks through 2 terminals
3. End of dedicated gates
4. 10 side-by-side security lanes for Terminal C
5. Terminal A will centralize gate/security areas
Aiming High and going far..
 
potomac
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:06 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:08 am

RDU certainly has it's design quirks, but I for one find it incredibly easy to get in and out of. I've been flying btwn DCA or IAD and RDU now every week for 5 months. The security lines are a breeze, delays minimal, and surprisingly there is a US Airways lounge. USAirways and United even use jet bridges directly to their CRJs - though the same can't be said for Delta.

The A terminal is a little odd looking but it seems to get the job done, though I can see the lack of gate space issue. Terminal C - or the half of Terminal C that still exists - doesn't seem to suffer from any gate space issues, but I'd agree that when it is rebuilt it will be much more appealing for new air service.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:50 am

Is RDU not making enough money from the landing fees/gate fees it already is charging its airlines served, or do they intend to rack up more cash for some expansion there of some sort???
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Hurricane
Posts: 1358
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2002 11:39 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:06 am

I can't wait until they have the terminal renovations completed...that'll eliminate many of the problems the airport now has, whether directly or indirectly. They can't be completed fast enough...
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Hurricane (Reply 3):
I can't wait until they have the terminal renovations completed...that'll eliminate many of the problems the airport now has, whether directly or indirectly. They can't be completed fast enough...

Then I think that answers my question... thanks for the post...  Smile
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 2):
Is RDU not making enough money from the landing fees/gate fees it already is charging its airlines served, or do they intend to rack up more cash for some expansion there of some sort???

Since airlines have changed a lot of mainline to RJ, they are getting less money from landing fees.. if airline were to actually right size the equipment into RDU, then the landing fees either would not have to rise, or would rise only slightly..

I"m not saying bring in a bunch of mainline aircraft that would be 80% full (as they typically are), but at least very few RJ and more mid-line aircraft (70-100 seats).

As far as any expansion goes.. the only thing left to do is finish Terminal C and renovate Terminal A...
Aiming High and going far..
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:39 pm

I don't get the RJ quirk anymore to be honest. The avro the Northwest uses and the CRJ9 are close to 100 seats, right? That's not really far off from a DC9 or most 737s, right? So.... what's the difference? And typically, airlines are cutting mainline and adding more RJs into the same airports.

Like with GSO, basically we've lost some cities which is typical for the mid-sized areas between major airports (TOL and GSP come to mind too). But, for instance, NW dropped DC9 flights for the Avro and US cut the 737 and even farther back dumped the F-100 for the CRJ9 ... so really nothing has changed in reality.

What I don't get is what airlines are passing RDU up? It seems that you guys have everyone but Frontier and JetBlue right now (and lesser ones like Pan Am and Hooters). And how much more capacity can RDU really handle??
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 6):
What I don't get is what airlines are passing RDU up?

Dangit, I would like to know whom also.....

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 6):
It seems that you guys have everyone but Frontier and JetBlue right now (and lesser ones like Pan Am and Hooters).

Well. We have all the majors plus AC, FL, and WN... but AC and FL only offer one destination so they are minimal. WN doesn't offer service to any un-offered non-stop destination, but they are keeping the fares lower on their competing routes.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 6):
And how much more capacity can RDU really handle??

Capacity at the gates? Not too much right now. Capacity in people.. depends on which terminal you are talking about right now. Capacity as far as profitable destinations? Well, DEN/BUF/SFO/PVD comes to mind. And others can definitely be handle with at least 1x daily flights.. There is a lot of business travel at RDU, and businesspersons want to fly as close to non-stop as possible..
Aiming High and going far..
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
Since airlines have changed a lot of mainline to RJ, they are getting less money from landing fees.. if airline were to actually right size the equipment into RDU, then the landing fees either would not have to rise, or would rise only slightly..

I maybe wrong here, but I assume that 2 x RJs weigh a lot more than one mainline aircraft with same number of pax...therefore if they are not using the right size aircraft (i.e. 2 RJs when they should use 1 mainline), the landing fees are actually higher using RJs (for the same pax)!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 5):
if airline were to actually right size the equipment into RDU,

Do you think airlines are doing this arbitrarilty adding RJ's? Would it be possible that by adding RJ's they are actually right-sizing the market?
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 6):
And how much more capacity can RDU really handle??

Raleigh is currently the 10th fastest growing city in the USA of cities over 200,000. It is growing at a rate of 60+ families a day. The tiangle is growing at around 25 thousand + a year. RDU has to have more capacity as it continues to serve this growing clientele. For now with oil behaving as it is, Southwest is reaping a lot of the benefits out of RDU. However Jetblue, and Frontier can't stay away for much longer. They will be here by 2008/9
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 10):
Raleigh is currently the 10th fastest growing city in the USA of cities over 200,000. It is growing at a rate of 60+ families a day. The tiangle is growing at around 25 thousand + a year. RDU has to have more capacity as it continues to serve this growing clientele. For now with oil behaving as it is, Southwest is reaping a lot of the benefits out of RDU. However Jetblue, and Frontier can't stay away for much longer. They will be here by 2008/9

I wonder if there are any new destinations discussed for RDU...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 9):
Would it be possible that by adding RJ's they are actually right-sizing the market?

No. Not really. RDU is a 70-100 seat market. Not a 37-50 seat market. RDU is a market which utilizes First class seating due to the large business travelers that we have. On some markets, perhaps the RJ is appropriate (RDU-NYC shuttles).. but on the majority of the markets in which RJ fly, they can easily be upgraded to 70-100 seat aircrafts and still have a 70-80% load factor with appropriate yields.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 8):
I maybe wrong here, but I assume that 2 x RJs weigh a lot more than one mainline aircraft with same number of pax...therefore if they are not using the right size aircraft (i.e. 2 RJs when they should use 1 mainline), the landing fees are actually higher using RJs (for the same pax)!

Nope.. 2 RJ carry less passengers, cargo, and fuel than 1 mainline aircraft.
CRJ at max weight = 53,000 lbs. @ 50 pax
732 at max weight = 129,500 lbs @ 100 pax
MD80 at max weight = 149,500 lbs. @ 142 pax
Aiming High and going far..
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 11):
I wonder if there are any new destinations discussed for RDU...

Only rumors are the usual.. Frontier to DEN and jetBlue to JFK.. other than that.. no other rumors that I have heard...
Aiming High and going far..
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 12):

No. Not really. RDU is a 70-100 seat market. Not a 37-50 seat market. RDU is a market which utilizes First class seating due to the large business travelers that we have

So the airlines are doing this arbitrarily, and not realizing their mistake? I thought they had yield managment departments to think things through. Too bad they don't have you as one of their employees to show them the huge error of their ways.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:58 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 14):
Too bad they don't have you as one of their employees to show them the huge error of their ways.

yup... I agree.
Aiming High and going far..
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5031
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 12):
Nope.. 2 RJ carry less passengers, cargo, and fuel than 1 mainline aircraft.

Last I checked, the 737-200 was a mainline aircraft, and it carries the same number passengers as 2 CRJ-200's, depending on the carrier.

Now, from my experience, two CRJ's can actually have MORE cubic feet of cargo than the 737-200 due to the small bins on the -200 model. Also, the 737-200 can be just as weight restricted as the CRJ-200.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 12):
CRJ at max weight = 53,000 lbs. @ 50 pax
732 at max weight = 129,500 lbs @ 100 pax
MD80 at max weight = 149,500 lbs. @ 142 pax

You are right that those numbers are max weight, but you forget a few key words: max structural takeoff weight. That is, that is the most the aircraft can weigh for takeoff. One thing should be noted though that the 737-200 does not have a max takeoff weight, or even a max taxi weight of 129,500—not even on the high gross weight convertible versions.

It should be also be noted that these aircraft could not legally depart with full payload and full fuel. Also, even with full payload, there are legs where the aircraft does not even reach max takeoff weight.

[Edited 2006-03-28 07:55:06]
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
cltguy
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:07 pm

ERJ, I thought that RDU was planning a landing fee increase all along to help pay for all the new construction going on there. I swear I remember you posting something to that affect a while back.

In any case the main reason that the landing fees are going up really has little to do with the whole mainline to rj sideshow that RDU AA threw out there. The rates went up 62%...has capacity decreased 62%? No...not even close. The main reason the rates are going up is to pay for the hundreds of millions of dollars in construction. Even RDU aknowledges that 83% of the most recent increase is going to pay off construction costs.
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 12):
Nope.. 2 RJ carry less passengers, cargo, and fuel than 1 mainline aircraft.
CRJ at max weight = 53,000 lbs. @ 50 pax
732 at max weight = 129,500 lbs @ 100 pax
MD80 at max weight = 149,500 lbs. @ 142 pax

Well, I guess I shouldn't have said 2 RJs since 3 are probably required to cover one mainline....in which case it is more weight and therefore more landing fees.

My point is that for the same number of pax, using RJs probably results in more total aircraft weight, therefore more landing fees. In your example, 3 RJs would be required to carry same pax as MD80 = more total weight.

So...it looks like changing to RJs has little impact on landing fees paid ...in fact could result in more. Now of course, if loads are lower, then they should have changed to RJs anyway, and should be paying less fees.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 17):
I thought that RDU was planning a landing fee increase all along to help pay for all the new construction going on there.

Hmmm.. I don't recall. I do remember that they raised pax fees to $4.50 to pay for terminal construction, but I don't remember ever saying that they were raising landing fees to pay for the taxiway relocation and apron expansion.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 16):
but you forget a few key words: max structural takeoff weight.

Correct, so neither the CRJ, the 732, or the MD88 would take off at that weight. BUT, the point was that it would take multiple RJ to replace a mainline aircraft and most airlines are replacing mainline and RJ on a 1:1 basis. So there are significant fees being lost. AA went from 5 mainline to ORD to 3 mainline and 2 RJ. Again, a 1:1 change.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 18):
So...it looks like changing to RJs has little impact on landing fees paid ...in fact could result in more. Now of course, if loads are lower, then they should have changed to RJs anyway, and should be paying less fees.

Loads per carrier can be found on RDU website.. almost all carriers at RDU carry over 80% in 2005. Now, how much they made, I'm not sure.. but the bodies were there.. since a lot of the legacy carriers have brought in RJs, they have actually lost quite a bit of load factor while other airlines (WN, FL) have gained pax.
Aiming High and going far..
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 19):
and most airlines are replacing mainline and RJ on a 1:1 basis. So there are significant fees being lost. AA went from 5 mainline to ORD to 3 mainline and 2 RJ. Again, a 1:1 change.

Right, so the loss of fees is because the load factors didn't justify the aircraft type/size ...not because airlines changed to RJs. They changed to RJs coz they couldn't fill the mainlines (hopefully  Smile).


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
They changed to RJs coz they couldn't fill the mainlines (hopefully Smile)

well, I dont know. perhaps. but the reality is that lighter aircraft pay less, which means less revenue for the airport leading to increased fees.
Aiming High and going far..
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:00 am

Quote:
Raleigh is currently the 10th fastest growing city in the USA of cities over 200,000. It is growing at a rate of 60+ families a day. The tiangle is growing at around 25 thousand + a year. RDU has to have more capacity as it continues to serve this growing clientele. For now with oil behaving as it is, Southwest is reaping a lot of the benefits out of RDU.

RDU is going to end up leveling out with population growth, it is bound to happen. Plus, 25,000 families per year doesn't mean more air travelers. Plus the 25k hasn't been every year. Either, the area is still only 1.3 million.

So I still don't really see why RDU needs quadruple the flights per day over places like RIC, NOR, GSO, etc that are very comparable in size and do have learge business travelers bases.

The thing is, if RDU focused only on serving Raleigh/Durham, the airport wouldn't be near what it is now. So please, spare me the "Raleigh is growing so fast" bit. Raleigh is big because it markets to other areas, not just Raleigh.

Quote:
However Jetblue, and Frontier can't stay away for much longer. They will be here by 2008/9

With landing fees as high as they are there (well more than RIC, GSO, CLT, GSP, NOR), I find it hard to believe that this won't have airlines looking at the other two close airports (RIC and GSO) for the cheaper fees and the ability to pull from the Raleigh market.

Like I said, Raligh/Durham is only 1.3 million, the Triad is only 1.3 million, the other areas RDU pulls from make are a million. The market will eventually be saturated, especially when the passengers from outlying areas stop traveling to RDU.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:05 am

Quote:
No. Not really. RDU is a 70-100 seat market. Not a 37-50 seat market. RDU is a market which utilizes First class seating due to the large business travelers that we have.

That is every mid-sized market.... Besides, 70-100 seats is the size of plenty of RJs now: like I said, CRJ9 and Avro are two examples. You've failed to say which RJs are serving the RDU market. For instance, GSO had lots of US Mainline flights dropped, but they were picked up with mainly CRJ9s, so the loss really is not noticeable other than the lack of first class seating.

But the one thing you fail to realize is the "need" for first class seating. Most companies have private jets or hire private jets for executives. Most companies allow their higher managers to fly first class. But most companies have the engineers, marketers, salesman, technicians, etc flying more than anyone else. Those are people that don't fly first class typically, causing the need for first class travel to be lots lower. Just because there are lots of business travelers doesn't mean those business travelers are allowing to fly first class.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 23):
like I said, CRJ9 and Avro are two examples.

Correct.. but RDU is getting CRJs and ERJs.. not CR9s and Avros. The closest is the CR7 (DL & UAX) and E70 (US & UAX), which are right size aircraft for the market they serve.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 23):
Most companies have private jets or hire private jets for executives.

Only ones I know of are SAS (737-700) and LabCorp.. Actually there is a committe in the RTP area made of up 100 business and part of their goal is to get airlines to bring in larger aircraft so they can have the First Class options.. It's called the Research Triangle Park Committee or something like that.. I'm not sure..

I'm not saying the RJs are not doing the job, but what I am saying is that due to the lack of seats, the flying public are losing choices and the airlines are losing potential business. Which is why DL stated they were going to upgrade most of their ATL flights from RJ to mainline.
Aiming High and going far..
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 22):
RDU is going to end up leveling out with population growth, it is bound to happen. Plus, 25,000 families per year doesn't mean more air travelers. Plus the 25k hasn't been every year. Either, the area is still only 1.3 million.

So I still don't really see why RDU needs quadruple the flights per day over places like RIC, NOR, GSO, etc that are very comparable in size and do have learge business travelers bases.

RDU has more high tech/population/colleges/sports team/politics than The triad.
Already has an established base of travel,

Has a younger population.

And yes the Triangle is bigger than the triad. Approaching 1.4 million while triad is around 1.1 million
NCAtlas Population

[Edited 2006-03-28 18:48:38]
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
AADC10
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:25 am

There is a bit of a Catch-22. If money is spent to build a new terminal and facilities to attract a small hub then landing fees and rental rates would have to rise to pay for the construction costs. Landing fees and such have to be revenue neutral by Federal law. The higher landing fees would discourage airlines from flying to RDU. If there were fewer flights, landing fees would have to become even higher to compensate because the same amount would need to be paid on the debt. It would probably take some large subsidies from local government to get an airline to establish operations large enough to occupy an whole terminal.
 
cltguy
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 21):
well, I dont know. perhaps. but the reality is that lighter aircraft pay less, which means less revenue for the airport leading to increased fees.

Does RDU have a bunch of fixed costs that it can't change? It would seem to make sense to me that if the planes that are being flown in are lighter...then that would require less operational funding. Instead of RDU increasing its landing fees to keep its operational budget the same...why can't they keep the landing fees the same and cut their operational budget to meet the lower costs of RJs?
 
cltguy
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:13 am

The latest Census 2005 estimates just released a week or so ago show that the RDU CSA is now 1.51M which just surpasses the GSO CSA of 1.49M. Sorry GSO you lose. Unfortunately your leadership has been slow in changing over from the old economy of manufacturing to the new information and biotech economy and that is the main reason yall have not been growing as fast as RDU or CLT.

For comparison the CLT CSA is now 2.12M...adding 53,000 people in one year.
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:32 am

RDU is doing great compeititively, I wouldn't expect that to change all that much as long as all these employers keep coming in and paying good as I see on the news almost everyday.

For those not familar with working at RDU, the terminal project is truely needed. Terminal A is out of date and can be rather dangerous on the ramp in some areas as there have been injuries to workers and passengers related to the congestion (mainly jet/prop blast from nearby departures). Not to say the delays and of having to push a/c out onto an active taxiway.

Any updates on what is going on with the former DH gate?
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Midway2AirTran (Reply 29):
Any updates on what is going on with the former DH gate?

From what I have read, the DH gate is being clumped together so that A10, A11, and A12 are being offered for an incoming airline... I don't know what airline is looking for 3 gates, but for some reason.. I do recall reading that they were looking to offer the 3 gates as a set..
Aiming High and going far..
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:03 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 30):
From what I have read, the DH gate is being clumped together so that A10, A11, and A12 are being offered for an incoming airline... I don't know what airline is looking for 3 gates, but for some reason.. I do recall reading that they were looking to offer the 3 gates as a set..

Perhaps B6 might want them and run RDU-IAD/JFK/BOS/FLL...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:07 am

Quote:
The latest Census 2005 estimates just released a week or so ago show that the RDU CSA is now 1.51M which just surpasses the GSO CSA of 1.49M. Sorry GSO you lose. Unfortunately your leadership has been slow in changing over from the old economy of manufacturing to the new information and biotech economy and that is the main reason yall have not been growing as fast as RDU or CLT.

Another typical quote from you. But you just proved my point. RDU is at 1.51M and GSO is at 1.49M on top of that "substantial" growth of the triangle, that really isn't proving much except that the Triangle is only slightly bigger.

Quote:
RDU has more high tech/population/colleges/sports team/politics than The triad.

More high tech, I'll grant you. Slightly more population, and I mean you just edge out GSO with all of this dynamic growth. Sports teams? So you have the Hurricanes, that is it over GSO. Colleges? Let's see, you have a bunch of large public schools that generally recruit NC and a handful 1 large private school while the GSO area has 2 large public schools and the #2 (Elon) #3 (Wake) and #5 (High Point) private schools in capacity for the state which recruit mainly out of NC... private schools show more kids flying than public schools do.

Politics? You're right, and that is the key. RDU's success is all due to beaurocracy.

The median family income for the Triangle is only $2000 per family above the Triad..... not a terribly big difference either.

I'm failing to see the "you lose" mentality of the Triad since there are still banks based here, insurance companies based here, tech companies based here, global chemical, and bio-tech..... so uhm.... yeah, you guys have opinions but the facts really show that the areas aren't terribly different.....

BTW, no one has answered any of my RDU questions about mainline vs RJs. Or is that going to be continually glossed over for the sake of more "RDU and CLT are better than GSO" comments?
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 32):
BTW, no one has answered any of my RDU questions about mainline vs RJs. Or is that going to be continually glossed over for the sake of more "RDU and CLT are better than GSO" comments?

Let me say this once and for all..


RDU is not better than GSO is no better than CLT is no better than RDU .. and let the circle continue...

the Triad and the Triangle have basically the same popln..

What was your mainline vs RJ question.. I thought I answered it earlier.. or at least addressed..

And finally.. the reason RDU has higher traffic than GSO is for 2 reason.. RDU pulls from a MUCH larger encachment area.. and of the popn in the Triangle vs Triad, more people and businesspeople travel in the Triangle area than the Triad..
Aiming High and going far..
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 32):
More high tech, I'll grant you.

Unfortunately for GSO and fortunately for RDU this makes a huge difference in business travellers. Much of the high-tech businesses in RTP use a large number of consultants that 'commute' home every week. These industries simply do not exist in such numbers in the triad.

I can talk from experience. I have worked for 2 companies in RTP - Nortel and IBM, and just the one project I was working on at Nortel had 200 consultants alone - most of whom travelled weekly. My most recent projects in the Triad, one of the worlds largest Apparel companies, and another, had at most 10-20 consultants that travelled weekly. See the comparison.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:38 pm

Quote:
What was your mainline vs RJ question.. I thought I answered it earlier.. or at least addressed..

My question was, if RDU is a 70-100 filled seat per plane station, then that is about the size of a CRJ9 and other large RJs. Was mainline replaced with large RJs rather than the small ones (much like has happened at GSO).

Quote:

Unfortunately for GSO and fortunately for RDU this makes a huge difference in business travellers. Much of the high-tech businesses in RTP use a large number of consultants that 'commute' home every week. These industries simply do not exist in such numbers in the triad.

I can talk from experience. I have worked for 2 companies in RTP - Nortel and IBM, and just the one project I was working on at Nortel had 200 consultants alone - most of whom travelled weekly. My most recent projects in the Triad, one of the worlds largest Apparel companies, and another, had at most 10-20 consultants that travelled weekly. See the comparison.

That has less to do with high tech than it does with companies contracting out in general. And that is a very good point and I thank you for bringing that up. But, that attributes some high loads in parts of the week, but still doesn't explain the need for more first class like ERJ170 is saying.

I have no facts to back it up, but contractors going home, more "pleasure" travelers, students going home, annd the crunch that most tech companies are facing are the reason why less first class is desired now.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
Was mainline replaced with large RJs rather than the small ones (much like has happened at GSO).

Mainline was replaced with CRJs... not CR7s, CR9s, E70, DC9s, etc.. (per REPLY 24)

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
But, that attributes some high loads in parts of the week, but still doesn't explain the need for more first class like ERJ170 is saying.

Sorry, was just going by what I heard/read somewhere that most airlines serving RDU don't have trouble filling their First Class sections... although that could be upgrade travel, I'm not sure.. but those are the people that are flying ALL the time that most airlines want to keep.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
I have no facts to back it up, but contractors going home, more "pleasure" travelers, students going home, annd the crunch that most tech companies are facing are the reason why less first class is desired now.

Very true.. very true.. and even though 50% of travelers out of RDU are business, they are not all flying first class.. but as an industry trend, more compancies are beginning to allow their traveling constituents to upgrade to business/first where applicable (a la AirTran fee to upgrade, etc.. ). And though there are business jets out there, more companies are flying the traditional carriers than NetJets or the like.. unless, of course, you are SAS..

ANd, with the recent trend of financial companies having to split their Management and Operations, more financial companies are moving to have a Co-HQ in the RTP area due to the cost of living, cost of business, and access to higher education applicants. Just look at Fidelity bring 5,000 jobs to the RTP area. Credit Suisse First Boston looking at up to 1,400 workers here.. And of course all the Biotech/Pharmaceutical.. but I digress...
Aiming High and going far..
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13515
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:39 pm

CNN Money 100 fastest growing counties 2004-2005

Apparently I was a little low. Wake county itself added 29,000 people in the year from 7/1/2004-7/1/2005.


RDU is in the center of a Growth explosion.
The reason it and Charlotte historically have has higher service loads than GSO is due to the history of hubs. The infrastructure was there already.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
That has less to do with high tech than it does with companies contracting out in general.

Well, not really. As I described, high-tech companies always have, and always will, use contractors and consultants on average much more than other industries. I can tell you that IBM, GE, Cisco, Nortel, Sun etc. have numbers of consultants orders of magnitude greater than the less high-tech companies in the triad area.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 35):
I have no facts to back it up, but contractors going home, more "pleasure" travelers, students going home, annd the crunch that most tech companies are facing are the reason why less first class is desired now.

Yes, although they might not be paying for first-class, the demand is certainly there. The more business travellers you get, the more frequent flyers you get, therefore many requesting upgrades. Almost everyone I travel with is 'elite' status with one airline at least. Probably not the first-class pax you were talking about though.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:37 pm

On the same subject, are there any plans to improve the currently bizarre and deranged FIS set up at RDU - you have to walk downstairs (with your hand luggage) to the tiny FIS inspection area in the basement, get processed and then RE-CLEAR security again (the full US strip-search security, no shoes/belts, laptops out etc) just to walk 50 yards down the concourse and out the building - its a pain, and removes a lot of the charm of arriving at a small international airport, which in theory should be quicker and less painful. Just a thought.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
On the same subject, are there any plans to improve the currently bizarre and deranged FIS set up at RDU - you have to walk downstairs (with your hand luggage) to the tiny FIS inspection area in the basement, get processed and then RE-CLEAR security again (the full US strip-search security, no shoes/belts, laptops out etc) just to walk 50 yards down the concourse and out the building - its a pain, and removes a lot of the charm of arriving at a small international airport, which in theory should be quicker and less painful. Just a thought.

Yup.. the new set-up will be...

Disembark. Customs (multilane clearance). Str8 to Baggage. Out the door.

No more treking up stairs, or walking the concourse, and walking down the stairs to baggage.. It's now uni-directional..
Aiming High and going far..
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 40):
It's now uni-directional

Hurray ! When will it be finished ? I'm travelling to RDU next week.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 41):
Hurray ! When will it be finished ? I'm travelling to RDU next week.

Hahahaha... 2008.. I think customs will be moving to the new-end of the terminal where the 3 international gates will be...

In the meantime.. you must deal with what is and anticipate for what is to come.. LOL
Aiming High and going far..
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 42):
2008

That's too long to wait - build quicker !!  grumpy 

I'm glad they're fixing it up, I will be using RDU quite a lot in the foreseeable future, and although its a nice little airport and very easy to use, the FIS will be better in a proper dedicated facility.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
cltguy
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:54 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 32):
I'm failing to see the "you lose" mentality of the Triad since there are still banks based here, insurance companies based here, tech companies based here, global chemical, and bio-tech..... so uhm.... yeah, you guys have opinions but the facts really show that the areas aren't terribly different.....

When I said "you lose GSO" I was referring specifically to the population "fight".

The GSO area has not been contracting in population, it has been growing all along, just at a much slower rate than RDU. I don't look at that as GSO "losing"...in fact, its more of a win on their part because yall don't have to deal with as many of the headaches that come along with it.

However if you want to look at the reasons as to why GSO is growing slower than RDU you can see that the industries that GSO is known for have not been high growth...Cigarettes, Furniture Manufacturing, Textiles....and if you look at the industries that had decent growth...they have lost those HQ...mainly Wachovia to CLT and Jefferson Pilot to PHL. BB&T is still there...but it is likely it will get bought out in the coming years.

RDU started investing in high tech industries back in the 1960s and has fostered that growth to the behemouth it is today. What was GSO doing back in the 1960s? Cigarettes, Furniture, Textiles...same things its doing today. There have been some high tech companies with operations in GSO, namely RF Micro and Dell...but on the whole it pales in comparison to what RTP has.

[Edited 2006-03-29 15:57:22]

[Edited 2006-03-29 16:02:41]
 
delta767
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 1:24 pm

RE: RDU Update

Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:02 am

What happened to the added flights that were supposed to come when Comair opened their maintenance and crew bases at GSO? DL staff were saying they might see additional destinations or frequencies, things have done nothing but be cut from the schedule. TPA, JFK, now FLL!
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Topic Author
Posts: 5940
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: RDU Update

Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:35 am

Comair has fallen from Delta's graces...

unless they want to run at risk flights.. which perhaps they should do.. or perhaps do some flights under Comair and not necessarily Delta???
Aiming High and going far..
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 905
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: RDU Update

Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:42 am

Has the Comair facility in GSO opened? I drive by it 2-4 times a day and there are never any cars outside of it or planes on the Tarmac.

What did Comair do to fall from Delta's good grace?

GSO is worthless. Few flights, no destinations and the only major aiport of VA or NC with no LCC. Even Roanoke has a LCC with well less than 1/10 of the population.
 
rdu777
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: RDU Update

Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:19 am

I think GSO will be getting a LCL within a few years. I'd love to be more optimistic, but CLT and RDU don't help. I can say though that I'm looking forward to Fedex at GSO. I would hope that they may be able to produce a bit more traffic, pax wise, in and out of GSO. Gsoflyer do you or anyone else have any up to date information on Fedex and how far along they are at GSO? I'd love to hear.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: RDU Update

Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 42):
Hahahaha... 2008.. I think customs will be moving to the new-end of the terminal where the 3 international gates will be...

What international airlines, besides Air Canada, are at RDU?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AaronPMI, AECM, arcticcruiser, FromCDGtoSYD, Google Adsense [Bot], intrance, JannEejit, jplatts, keenaz28, Mbowlesy, mig17, mysterzip, NeperQiell, nyd686, palA35X, PITfall, RL757PVD, Shields, utaussiefan, VV and 131 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos