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kaddyuk
Topic Author
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:53 am

I Want to offer this to the floor...

This is just something i've been questioning and its the underestimated power of British Airways...

People who know me, know that i'm Pro VS All the way, but there are two differences between BA and VS...

Size & Infrastructure

While VS is stuck in T3 and cant seem to have aeroplanes delivered fast enough, British Airways is planning something. They've lost big time in recent years due to 9/11 and strikes etc. However the last two years they have made BIG profits in their longhaul services.

Their aircraft utelization is low, around 13 to 14hrs per day. Where as VS is MUCH higher. If you check v-flyer you can see that VS aircraft are in the air almost all the time (around 19hrs per day). Very Little downtime & Flexibility. Where as BA have spare aircraft all over the shop and with a slight rejiggle of the flying schedule can produce available aircraft in a short space of time. This is an impossibility with VS!

When VS started flying to PVG, BA matched our service by flying daily. Once VS started to DEL, BA increased to 14 times weekly. All without gaining ANY new aircraft. An impossibility for VS with them having no spare aircraft...

I think within 2 or 3 years time, the market in the UK will become even tighter than it currently is because of the sleeping giant that is British Airways.

Their short haul seems to not raise any profits, infact it probably looses more than it makes. however they need the shorthaul to support the longhaul. This might be the only archillees heel of BA.

Questions? Comments? Flames?
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
mainMAN
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Thread starter):
When VS started flying to PVG, BA matched our service by flying daily. Once VS started to DEL, BA increased to 14 times weekly. All without gaining ANY new aircraft. An impossibility for VS with them having no spare aircraft...

BA have a big enough fleet to be able to change schedules in this way. In recent years, they've dropped Pittsburgh, Lilongwe, Kuala Lumpur, Nagoya, Osaka and now Melbourne (amongst others) to send aircraft on more profitable routes.

I don't remember VS contracting, except perhaps to YYZ.
 
ktachiya
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 1):
Osaka

Osaka might have been axed but didn't they make Tokyo 2x daily?
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
A388
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:15 am

I can see BA as a sleeping giant. After all, they are one of the biggest European airlines next to AF and LH. They have the aircraft to be flexible and like I've said before, I feel a large and important long-haul aircraft order coming from BA either this year or next year. I think the 747-800 and 777-300ER fit BA's fleet perfectly as replacement of their 744 fleet and expansion of their current long-haul fleet as well. The A380 might also have its place within BA but I think this will take a few more years before BA orders or leases the A380 (IF they do).

Regards,

A388
 
jacobin777
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 1):
I don't remember VS contracting, except perhaps to YYZ.

and ORD..... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
commavia
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:08 pm

As much as I hate to say it, as I absolutely love BA and the U.K., I think the real fly in the Jet A for BA is going to continue to be Heathrow, which has languished for decades because of the complete inability of the U.K. government to come to a consensus on focusing on development and airfield capacity growth at one of the largest economic engines in all of Britain. The debate has repeatedly been hijacked by narrow-focused, short-sighted NIMBYs who have held up economic growth and development not only at and around Heathrow, but by extension, throughout the U.K.

While I certainly agree that BA is an excellent airline, and competitor, against VS or against AF/KL, LH, etc., BA is going to continue to face an uphill battle if it has to continue in the future to deal with the prospect of ridiculous capacity constraints at its largest hub -- with only two usable runways -- while AF and KL, and LH, have much more growth capacity at their respective hubs.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:29 pm

13/14 hour utilization is about the norm for the industry.
BA did drop FUK too.
 
TransAmerican
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting 797 (Reply 3):
If they don't fly to CCS, then they're no giants

Hehe, it certainly would be lovely to see a BA 744 land at CCS again. It would also mean that I could visit my family in Venezuela without having to resort to the likes of Iberia via MAD!
Dream like you'll live forever. Live like you'll die today.
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:52 pm

Let's see...

300+ fleet of modern jets
World's largest operator of 747-400s
30-40 Million passengers per annum
200 destinations worldwide
£2 billion sitting in the bank, waiting to acquire new aircraft/airlines
One of the world's most profitable airlines

I'd say British Aiways is a giant indeed, just not sleeping!!!  yes 
 
aussiestu
Posts: 752
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:01 pm

KaddyUK I understand where you are coming from and believe the next two years for BA are going to be interesting ones. While they have dropped routes and cancelled services and with no new longhaul aircraft ordered for delivery one wonders what the plan is???

The routes that were dropped have mostly (MEL excepted) been unprofitable. Why fly to somewhere if your not making money and who cares who it upsets, if your not making money get rid of it. And although services were dropped you have seen an increase in flights to destinations that make money. JFK LAX SFO MIA DEL BOM CPT JNB are all services that were either served just daily but have had that increased to 2 or 3 times and JFK is up to 7 from LHR. Thats expansion without an increase in aircraft. I do believe though that BA is conservative in that expansion and chooses its markets wisely.

We have only seen 2 new routes recently and thats Bangalore and Shanghai. Markets that are proving themselves well. While like most people I would love to see BA regain its reputation as the worlds favourite airline and the biggest european carrier I just want them to do it the right way and the best way.

Just wonder what the next new route for longhaul is??????  Confused
 
cardiffairtaxi
Posts: 298
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:11 pm

Just got back in from CWL,and there are 2x BA 747-400 at BA Maintenance hangar.
One just delivered,and one about to go back up tp LHR.
 
congaboy
Posts: 258
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 9):
300+ fleet of modern jets
World's largest operator of 747-400s
30-40 Million passengers per annum
200 destinations worldwide
£2 billion sitting in the bank, waiting to acquire new aircraft/airlines
One of the world's most profitable airlines

I'd say British Aiways is a giant indeed, just not sleeping!!!

...and they are becoming VERY aggressive with their cost-cutting focus, of which my company has become "victimized". This practice (sorry, practise) will only make them even more formidable regarding profitability.
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
B747-4U3
Posts: 617
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 8):
Let's see...

300+ fleet of modern jets
World's largest operator of 747-400s
30-40 Million passengers per annum
200 destinations worldwide
£2 billion sitting in the bank, waiting to acquire new aircraft/airlines
One of the world's most profitable airlines

I'd say British Aiways is a giant indeed, just not sleeping!!!

I respectfully disagree, I still think they are sleeping. Once they move to T5, however, I think they will really wake up and stomp all over the competition.

I would say that BA's greatest drawback is that it is spread over 3 terminals at the moment, and often people have to transit from one to another by bus which is a bit of a pain in the arse and it increases transit times. Once T5 opens, with the exception of a few flights which will leave from T3, all of BA's flights will be under one roof making the connecting experience more pleasant, and should thus attract more customers.

Furthermore, T5 will improve BA's efficiency which could make more routes possible (i.e. with lower costs and better connections we might see BA return to Osaka- well proably not Osaka as JL already serve that route, but you get the point).
 
cornish
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 4):
Quoting MainMAN (Reply 1):
I don't remember VS contracting, except perhaps to YYZ.


and ORD.....

And cutting their one short haul route to Athens operated with A321s.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Thread starter):
Their aircraft utelization is low, around 13 to 14hrs per day. Where as VS is MUCH higher. If you check v-flyer you can see that VS aircraft are in the air almost all the time (around 19hrs per day).

This is no surprise and really is irrelevent in this context. Virgin's route network is entirely long haul while BA has a high proportion of short haul.
Short haul utilisation is always lower than long haul by and large with traditional network carriers. Even if you compare long haul fleets with long haul fleets you have to remember that VS have a high proportion of LONGER haul routes in their route network - places such as HKG, TYO, LAX, SFO, etc and very little Medium haul (only really LOS, NYC etc). BA have a far higher proportion of medium haul routes than VS.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Thread starter):
Their short haul seems to not raise any profits, infact it probably looses more than it makes. however they need the shorthaul to support the longhaul. This might be the only archillees heel of BA.

It is supposedly breaking even now - well at least the LHR services. But at the same time the fact that it has a much greater feed into its long haul network than Virgin is a BIG advantage and as such will mean that BA is always more likely to offer greater capacity and frequency on key long haul markets, particularly because it has a much bigger customer catchment market.

Virgin only really manages to feed passengers between its Transtlantic and African services.

Also because BA offers a range of destinations both short haul and long haul that Virgin cannot ever hope to offer, it will be in the majority of cases more attractive to the frequent flyers and corporate clients who have more opportunites to earn and spend miles.

Finally because BA has traditionally been the UK's flag carrier it possesses the Uk rights to fly to many of the countries around the world. For certain markets Virgin has to wait for a change of the bilaterals before it can start operating - and now of course it will be in competition with Bmi for second carrier rights....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Arrow
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:24 am

Just booked a summer trip YVR-LHR-GVA on BA (first time I've used them in 20 years), and based the choice on departure/connection time, price, service. I don't think they are asleep.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
mutu
Posts: 501
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:37 am

Gosh this is a fun thread..makes me think long and hard. I remember the old days when BA was the "worlds favourite" and VS was in its infancy. BA was making about £800m profit in its best year carrying about 22m pax. Oil wouold have been $18pb. Now we have profits of £600m, 40m pax, oil at $65bp and VS a strong quality competitor. Add on the advent of the aggressive LCC's in the UK you would think BA should have gone under years ago!

Well it never sits still, cutting costs, switching capacity to maximise yield and profits. Its ambitious 10% operating margin plan (many in the sector claim this is not possible) now looks like a reality for 2008 (barring another crisis somewhere) which would put profits at £800/900m.

Cash performance is even more impressive. BA owns outright its longhaul fleet, there are no lease charges etc but there are depreciation costs against profits. Add these back and you start to see that cash generated by the business each year has been in excess of £1.2bn BEFORE proceeds from selling non airline assets.
Again a giant size performance, definately a giant. But is it sleeping?

Well against it, Heathrow is constrained so with no extra slots (And competition authorities likely to try to allocate away from BA if additional slots were created) growth will be hard to find, and there is oonly so much capacity movement can be done to improve profits. UNLESS of course you continue to take a couple of short haul flights out of the programme each season and use them for long haul (take off and landing times permitting). THis is of course a way to keep moving forward. Short haul breaks even (actually I think LHR ops make a small profit, LGW a small loss, and other UK a loss), long haul a huge profit

Against it , more and more new entrants on key routes (TAM, Etihad, VS continuing to grow) will decrease yields potentially unless the on board product is SOOO fantastic that people will not desert (it isnt, was once though, and could be again for a period of time)

Against it, environmental lobbies etc and the oil climate (but I guess ALL operators will have the same problems so a level playing field)

Against it, that fleet needs replacing. I know the oldest 744 have got a good 6 years left technically but as a premium pax, i am tiring of the technical delays!! They have the money...but by the time it is politically correct to announce plans they will be years away from deliveries. Those order books are filling up for the 787 and 380 and 777. (Curiously the only one they could arguably jumop to the front of thje queue would be the 748?)

Against it: Will premium pax desert for the 380 operators? Personally I dont think so. Personally I would try the 380 experience of course but then frankly I need frequency. It is more important to me to have 10 flights NEw York/London daily so i change my plans I know I will get a seat. Greater frequencies (even on smaller jets) is what most premium pax want otherwise what is the benefit of a flexible ticket.....perhaps this is a small risk

sorry I have gone on for ages, a giant yes, sleeping, no, probably doing as much as it can given the above, but doing it very well
 
FLVILLA
Posts: 316
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:07 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:41 am

Well very interesting thread to read while sitting in the terraces lounge at T1 ! Big grin

I think at the moment BA is starting to come out a bit more and flex its muscles, but it's definitely taking a conservative approach to things for the time being. Choosing there routes carefully and doing there best to sort out there own 'house'. I think once BA moves to T5 we could see some real movement from them, new routes, new planes etc. But lets just hope this time if there are any ambitious plans they take it nice and slow, they have good reason to not over-promise *cough*Ayling*cough*  Wink . But i have every faith in Willie Walsh.

Anyhoo off to HKG !

FLVILLA
I hope in life i can work to live, not live to work
 
Geo772
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Mutu (Reply 15):
BA owns outright its longhaul fleet

BA owns virtually none of its longhaul fleet. Banks and other institutions own most of it through mortgages in favour of them. Admittedly some aircraft are owned outright but it is an exception to the rule.

Quoting Mutu (Reply 15):
I know the oldest 744 have got a good 6 years left technically but as a premium pax, i am tiring of the technical delays!!

Most delays at Heathrow are NOT technical, many are actually caused by passengers not turning up to the gate. Some are but would you rather fly in an aircraft which is broken but on time or would you rather be delayed a little on a servicable aircraft.

As for other things, BA does have some delivery slots for B777s available between 2008 and 2010. Once the pension situation has been sorted out then the company will be financially better placed to spend money on new longhaul aircraft.
There is already in place significant investment to renew the Club World product as well as refresh other cabins. There is also a major upgrade coming to the Rockwell Collins IFE system later this year.
Flown on A300B4/600,A319/20/21,A332/3,A343,B727,B732/3/4/5/6/7/8,B741/2/4,B752/3,B762/3,B772/3,DC10,L1011-200,VC10,MD80,
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:44 am

Wow! What a puzzling thread. Although, I don't know what the real question is.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
I respectfully disagree, I still think they are sleeping.

I don't think BA is sleeping, AT ALL! Comparing BA and VS is hard to do because they are no where in the same league, size wise that is. Operations at BA entertain a lot more headaches than VS's. More employees, more destinations, more aircrafts, etc... BA has been one of the biggest airlines, not just in Europe, but in the world, IMHO. Until T5 is ready to handle passengers, etc., I think BA has very little room for improvements. I think it has a strong presence in all continents (well, aside from Antartica  Silly) and has a good business strategy. One thing I would perhaps throw out there is for BA to create another hub aside from LHR, especially in Asia. I think there's a strong/increasing demand in Asia (especially China/India) and creating a subsidiary (let's say, Birtish Airways Asia) would be beneficial. I suggest Hong Kong for its geographic benefits. I don't know how open the Chinese government would be to this idea, but because of former political ties between the UK and Hong Kong, it may be easier than one may think.

Quoting FLVILLA (Reply 16):
sorry I have gone on for ages, a giant yes, sleeping, no, probably doing as much as it can given the above, but doing it very well

Pretty much sums up my thread, LOL.  rotfl 
 
kaddyuk
Topic Author
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):

This is no surprise and really is irrelevent in this context. Virgin's route network is entirely long haul while BA has a high proportion of short haul.

I'm refering to Long Haul fleet only regarding Aircraft Utelization...

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
BA has traditionally been the UK's flag carrier

Which legally they aren't and if it came to bidding for a new country, would compete on equal terms with VS.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 18):
Wow! What a puzzling thread. Although, I don't know what the real question is.

I thought it was simple enough to understand???

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 18):
Comparing BA and VS is hard to do because they are no where in the same league,

But they are... they're both long haul operators out of LHR serving both an economy, premium and business market.

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 18):
suggest Hong Kong for its geographic benefits. I don't know how open the Chinese government would be to this idea, but because of former political ties between the UK and Hong Kong, it may be easier than one may think.

Not very... I doubt that Cathay/Dragonair would take to BA starting new services very much. And any method, they can already serve the east via OneWorld...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Cardiffairtaxi (Reply 10):
One just delivered,and one about to go back up tp LHR.

Delivered from where?  confused 

Like somebody said, they are a giant but I'm not sure they're sleeping.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
b777a340fan
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:42 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 19):
But they are... they're both long haul operators out of LHR serving both an economy, premium and business market.

I know they both serve long-haul with the standard three-class configuration. I was talking about the size of their operations. On that scale, BA is much bigger, hence in a different league in that respect.

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 19):
Not very... I doubt that Cathay/Dragonair would take to BA starting new services very much. And any method, they can already serve the east via OneWorld...

Hmm. It's true that the Chinese government has minor stakes in both CX and KA, but it has recently been open to foreign investors. It may cause unfair advantage, I agree. In that case, Hong Kong is not the only viable airport in Asia  Wink. Just because BA is a member of OneWorld doesn't mean that it can't tap into similar markets (i.e. US/UAL both being part of the Star Alliance and CO/DL/NW all being part of SkyTeam).
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 1:29 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
BA is going to continue to face an uphill battle if it has to continue in the future to deal with the prospect of ridiculous capacity constraints at its largest hub -- with only two usable runways -- while AF and KL, and LH, have much more growth capacity at their respective hubs.

They could always expand at airports away from LHR ? However as BA doesnt care beyond London I would expect them to expand overseas before they expand up north.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
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RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
Finally because BA has traditionally been the UK's flag carrier it possesses the Uk rights to fly to many of the countries around the world.


Here's the source of those mass profits.. half of the old british empire is restricted solely to BA (Bermuda, Gibraltar...) get rid of some of this anti-competitive practise..

Quoting Mutu (Reply 15):
flights NEw York/London daily so i change my plans I know I will get a seat

Yes 10 flights all leaving New York between 8pm and 10pm.. oh I have oh so much choice.. 8pm, 8.10pm, 8.15pm...
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
mutu
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 23):
Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
Finally because BA has traditionally been the UK's flag carrier it possesses the Uk rights to fly to many of the countries around the world.


Here's the source of those mass profits.. half of the old british empire is restricted solely to BA (Bermuda, Gibraltar...) get rid of some of this anti-competitive practise..

Quoting Mutu (Reply 15):
flights NEw York/London daily so i change my plans I know I will get a seat

Yes 10 flights all leaving New York between 8pm and 10pm.. oh I have oh so much choice.. 8pm, 8.10pm, 8.15

well there are daylight flights as well actually but the choice outbound is almost hourly.

I am not sure half the old empire is restricted? GB fly GIB flights which make virtually nothing, and fares appear very reasonable.....do not forget that there were some routes BA were requitred to fly because it was its duty!! Which is rubbish of course but do you recall the politicians moaning when BA withdrew LHR/Jersey or LGW/Newquay? Or LHR/Belfast? If they lose money thye dont fly em. I cant thik of a single monopoly route due to legislation, but you dont like BA do you!
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 23):
Here's the source of those mass profits.. half of the old british empire is restricted solely to BA (Bermuda, Gibraltar...) get rid of some of this anti-competitive practise..

BA does not serve Bermuda. The only British Overseas Territories BA serves are Gibraltar and Turks & Caicos Islands, and they are not the reason for BA's massive profits. If you have a look at BA's accounts you will see that North America, particularly the United States accounts for most of BA's profit. While you are correct that some parts of the world are only restricted to BA, most of is opening up. The problem of competing with BA is slots at LHR.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 23):
Yes 10 flights all leaving New York between 8pm and 10pm.. oh I have oh so much choice.. 8pm, 8.10pm, 8.15pm...

But if you leave from London, you have all this choice:

BA0117 LHR JFK 08:55
BA0175 LHR JFK 10:25
BA0177 LHR JFK 13:40
BA0113 LHR JFK 15:25
BA0115 LHR JFK 16:20
BA0179 LHR JFK 18:05
BA0183 LHR JFK 20:00

And even on the return, there is still (limited) choice:

BA0178 JFK LHR 09:15
BA0112 JFK LHR 18:25
BA0174 JFK LHR 19:00
BA0176 JFK LHR 19:30
BA0116 JFK LHR 20:01
BA0114 JFK LHR 20:30
BA0182 JFK LHR 22:30
 
mutu
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 25):
BA does not serve Bermuda.

Small point but they do serve Bermuda with a daily t7 summer schedule up from 5x weekly winter.ex LGW
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
This is no surprise and really is irrelevent in this context. Virgin's route network is entirely long haul while BA has a high proportion of short haul.

thats a shortfall I see with VS, they need an A330-sized plane for those medium-haul routes..

ok, maybe they would have to abandon the "4 engines four long haul"...but at the end of the day, profit trumps!

I think this would allow VS to open a lot of routes on a small scale then add their larger birds if the route is doing well..
"Up the Irons!"
 
LHR777
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:14 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting B777A340Fan (Reply 21):
I know they both serve long-haul with the standard three-class configuration. I was talking about the size of their operations. On that scale, BA is much bigger, hence in a different league in that respect.

Baring in mind of course that BA offers a 4-class product on the majority of long-haul routes ('First', 'Club World', 'World Traveller Plus' and 'World Traveller'), whereas VS only offers 3 cabins, consisting of 'Upper Class', 'Premium Economy' and 'Economy'. Also remember that 'Upper Class' is not a first-class product, but an 'enhanced' business-class product.
 
boo25
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:03 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:42 am

I work on BA Shorthaul, we work damn hard, as the aircraft are predominantly A319/A320, every flight is full and many people pay full fare / club loads are higher than ever.....

It p***es us off no end, that BA give us NO recognition when it comes to revenue, they lump all the transit revenue into Longhauls funds and try to make us feel guilty for not turning a profit.

Quite often, 30%+ of the passengers are transit, but what about the other 70% - if we are full then we are not charging enough.......

Never underestimate shorthaul - it is a huge fleet and efficient too.

This is a great thread , and long supports my theory of the watching and waiting game BA are/can play right now.....

However, as always trouble is on the horizon ,not least because under a new policy , crew feel forced to come into work sick - and we've all just been told to work an extra 10 years if we want a pension (if we're still alive .....) , so BA's 'summer of discontents' are not consigned to the history books just yet.................
 
Concorde001
Posts: 1186
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:53 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Boo25 (Reply 29):
Quite often, 30%+ of the passengers are transit, but what about the other 70% - if we are full then we are not charging enough.......

Wow! If BA is only carrying on average 30% connecting traffic on LHR European routes then that is very low compared to AF/LH and other European carriers! If I'm not mistaken, isn't increased point to point traffic on European shorthual meant to be good thing as yields are higher on point to point fares?
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Boo25 (Reply 29):
However, as always trouble is on the horizon ,not least because under a new policy , crew feel forced to come into work sick - and we've all just been told to work an extra 10 years if we want a pension (if we're still alive .....) , so BA's 'summer of discontents' are not consigned to the history books just yet.................

I understand your anger and frustrations, but I sincerely hope you fellow employees stop jacking us customers around and think twice about your actions, BA is going to be a large part of my summer schedule......domestic, intra-EU, as well as medium/long haul to the middle east/asia......

if BA employees start pulling this crap again, my business will go somewhere else...and I'm not the "once-a-year" traveler either...I flew over 75k miles last year

I'm sure there are many people like me who will grudgingly start giving their business to some other carrier...and many won't bother returning to BA either....
"Up the Irons!"
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
I'm sure there are many people like me who will grudgingly start giving their business to some other carrier...and many won't bother returning to BA either....

Great point. Some of us already have although not because of the points you brought up. BA needs to get their baggage handling @ LHR straight, period. They have mis-routed my bags 7 out of 10 times I've flown with them out of LHR. That's too much of a coincidence for me. I switched to VS every time I fly to the UK and I have no regrets so far.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
ok, maybe they would have to abandon the "4 engines four long haul"...but at the end of the day, profit trumps!

They'll have to sooner or later because like you said, it's about profits and they'll probably go A350/777/ soon.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 32):

They'll have to sooner or later because like you said, it's about profits and they'll probably go A350/777/ soon.

will be interesting what they go for...I would say the A350 is going to be their best bet.....

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 32):
Great point. Some of us already have although not because of the points you brought up. BA needs to get their baggage handling @ LHR straight, period. They have mis-routed my bags 7 out of 10 times I've flown with them out of LHR. That's too much of a coincidence for me. I switched to VS every time I fly to the UK and I have no regrets so far.

7?? YIKES. Wow! I would have switched too....I've had mixed experience with VS, but never any bad ones with BA...I've been flying on BA since the days of them being BOAC...in fact, I've been fortunate to fly on their VC-10 from LHR-ISB-LHR when I was a kid back in the 1970's (jeesh does time fly-no pun intended)

gosh, they had the HUGE model at the BA office there...I wanted it soooooo bad.. biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
They have the aircraft to be flexible and like I've said before, I feel a large and important long-haul aircraft order coming from BA either this year or next year. I

Additionally they have a number of 763s on lease to QF. When they are returned BA can grow its long and / or short haul fleet with zero expenditure.
 
bsbisland
Posts: 351
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:45 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:09 am

BA is indeed an awake giant. I´m a big fan of British Airways. I had my only 747-400 flight back in 2000 on LGW-GRU-GIG and this flight is one of the most memorable flights I have.

off topic, I was just guessiing, could someone inform me which destinations Virgin Atlantic has and what´s their fleet? Thanks.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7702
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 35):
BA is indeed an awake giant. I´m a big fan of British Airways. I had my only 747-400 flight back in 2000 on LGW-GRU-GIG and this flight is one of the most memorable flights I have.

I remember seeing one of those 744s at one of PIT's international gates at the end of the C concourse. It sure was nice to see jumbos in PIT back in the day. Any chance those birds will be landin at the golden triangle in about 5 years or so as soon as PIT establishes a more competitive international business market???  pray   crossfingers 
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
kaddyuk
Topic Author
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):

thats a shortfall I see with VS, they need an A330-sized plane for those medium-haul routes..

Thats Highly Speculative  Wink

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 35):

off topic, I was just guessiing, could someone inform me which destinations Virgin Atlantic has and what´s their fleet? Thanks.

Currently operating B747-400, A340-300 and A340-600 to the following destinations...

LAX, SFO, IAD, BOS, JFK, EWR, BGI, TAB, GND, NAS, HAV, MCO, MIA, ANU, UVF, JNB, CPT, NRT, HKG, SYD and DXB...

 Wink
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 37):

Thats Highly Speculative  Wink

of course, its just been my observation.....but what large international carrier doesn't carry a plane the size of an A330?

having large planes limits VS's destinations..........
"Up the Irons!"
 
kaddyuk
Topic Author
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 38):
having large planes limits VS's destinations..........

How do you rate the A340 then? Its not any larger than the A330...
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
ba97
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:42 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:23 pm

What ever BA does, they will do it with purpose that most fear to try. On keeping passengers who fly a lot is something they have over many carriers and can win or lose big. I switched to BA after getting tired of AC's poor service et al. 6 of my co workers followed. It is now 4 years and I think the business model BA has is working for me-and seems for them. But as said before by others, there are many of us who fly over 50,000 miles a year, and it will be a domino reaction when we get tired of the labour issues. The last 2 years of BA work stoppages easily cost me $15,000USD in expenses. I know staff work hard and disputes occur, but argue all you want, take it out on the premium fliers, no one will have jobs as BA will be no different than a long haul Easy Jet without the business traveler. there-finished my rant.
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:33 pm

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 39):

How do you rate the A340 then? Its not any larger than the A330...

ey? Your telling me their A343's and especially their A346's are larger than say an A332?
"Up the Irons!"
 
cardiffairtaxi
Posts: 298
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:08 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 20):

One flies down from LHR,to be serviced,whilst replacing the previously serviced aircraft.
 
scotron11
Posts: 1432
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:19 pm

At the moment yes, but once the issue of their pension deficit is under control, and the move into T5, the giant is going to wake up! Not to say BA has been entirely asleep. Look at their India service, now up to 42 a week.

What will be the final EU/US open skies deal? BA and AA are both keen to expand their cooperation, which would be a giant if it ever came to fruition. Also, over here there has always been speculation regarding IB, which both AA & BA hold stakes.

Hopefully they can achieve all their goals without any industrial action, which they need like a hole in the head!
 
jouy31
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 4:59 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting AlanUK (Reply 8):
£2 billion sitting in the bank, waiting to acquire new aircraft/airlines

From which you need to subtract their pension liability, unless they can renege on their commitments to their staff. As for their yearly industrial action, it took them 4 months to restore catering in CE.
 
mutu
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:04 am

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting Jouy31 (Reply 44):
From which you need to subtract their pension liability, unless

No you dont. The pension deficit is a snapshot taken now based on assumptions which today must be realistic (which means in a world with low interest rates and low inflation, you have to assume modest asset appreciation over the next 20 to 30 years, and of course increasing life expectancy) But of course as quickly as these deficits arose (after the dot com crash and 9/11 when the worlds financial markets collapsed) they can be restored. UK interest rates back at 7% would in its own right eliminate much of the current deficit.

As to pension liability, the pension scheme is perfectly capable of paying its pension obligations from its resources for many years yet without there being any default!! Do not confuse long term actuarial deficits with immediate cashflow pressures
 
jouy31
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 4:59 pm

RE: Is British Airways A Sleeping Giant?

Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:37 am

I agree that long term liabilities do not put a pressure on short term banking assets and cash flow. Nevertheless, if there was no impact at all, BA would not need to try to raise the retirement age from 55 to 60 for pilots and to 65 for other staff categories.

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