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dtw9
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Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:49 am

source- DowJones


Aviation Partners Boeing said late Wednesday AMR Corp.'s (AMR) American Airlines has decided to retrofit its entire fleet of 737-800s with its blended winglets
 
commavia
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:03 pm

This was a very smart decision on AA's part.

Obviously AA's tests on its initial 737-800 testbed wingletted aircraft met, or perhaps even exceeded, AA's expectations on fuel burn reduction, etc. I wonder what kind of deal AA got from APB.
 
thepilot
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:06 pm

I also heard from an ERAU Prescott admissions councelor with ties to AA that they plan on getting a few more 752s and adding winglets to those like CO. Can anyone confirm that? Smart choice by AA, though.
From YVR
 
captaink
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Dtw9 (Thread starter):

Aviation Partners Boeing said late Wednesday AMR Corp.'s (AMR) American Airlines has decided to retrofit its entire fleet of 737-800s with its blended winglets

Good news for AA, added to the cost benefits, the fleet would look rather smart.  Smile

BTW.. dude you beat by seconds on posting this topic, i found it on MarketWatch... Big grin

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airwave
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:26 pm

AA has a rather large NG fleet, correct? Something like 80 examples, I think. Are they all -800s? So how long with the fleet-wide retrofit take; any educated extrapolations?

Also, how recent a feature are the blended winglets? I know AA's 737NGs are relatively young, so why wouldn't they have gone for it as a factory-install?

Anyway, good to hear. AA will be very happy with this decision, no doubt. Winglets are awesome, lol. Ironically, I used to think that 737s with winglets looked weird...and now I think 737s without winglets look weird, haha.  Yeah sure

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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:31 pm

This is a great bit of news.. I love the 737NG with winglets.. sorta makes it the "corvette" or "mustang" of the sky!

On a similar note, I heard (possibly on here, and I cannot find anything via the search right now) that Westjet may in fact NOT be retrofitting any further new 737NG's as the benefits of the winglets were nixed by the satellite fairing on the roof.. can anyone confirm or deny this?

Thanks!

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panam330
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
I also heard from an ERAU Prescott admissions councelor with ties to AA that they plan on getting a few more 752s and adding winglets to those like CO. Can anyone confirm that? Smart choice by AA, though.

IIRC, AA's initial plan was to equip all of the 757s with winglets.
 
thepilot
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:44 pm

I bit off topic (sorry if this has been discussed) but are AA planning to keep their TWA 752s? I thought I heard they might want to get rid of them.
From YVR
 
ckfred
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Airwave (Reply 4):
Also, how recent a feature are the blended winglets? I know AA's 737NGs are relatively young, so why wouldn't they have gone for it as a factory-install?

The reasons that AA didn't initially order the 737-800s with winglets were:

a) they added cost, both to the purchase price and for maintenance. Oil prices made the savings from reduced fuel burn worth the cost of installantion and maintenance, and

b) the greater wingspan will cut down on the number of gates in which 737s can park. Although 737s no longer go into ORD, they could park at just about every mainline gate, since the wingspan is about the same as the MD-80. With winglets, some of the gates would become unusuable or very tight, meaning that the 737s might be restricted to gates that are 757 and larger only. Again, the savings in terms of fuel use outweighs the lack of gate flexibility.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 6):
IIRC, AA's initial plan was to equip all of the 757s with winglets.

I think AA was planning to put the winglets on the 20 or so 757s that regularly fly to Hawaii or trans-Atlantic.
 
airwave
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:07 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 8):
The reasons that AA didn't initially order the 737-800s with winglets were:

a) they added cost,

b) the greater wingspan will cut down on the number of gates in which 737s can park. Although 737s no longer go into ORD, they could park at just about every mainline gate, since the wingspan is about the same as the MD-80. With winglets, some of the gates would become unusuable or very tight, meaning that the 737s might be restricted to gates that are 757 and larger only. Again, the savings in terms of fuel use outweighs the lack of gate flexibility.

Ok, your point a definitely makes sense--I'd almost forgotten how low oil prices once were (relatively speaking). But I'm interested that winglets add that much extra wingspan. How much is it exactly? I can dig up 757 figures on here, but the whole concept is quite interesting.

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tekelberry
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 7):
I bit off topic (sorry if this has been discussed) but are AA planning to keep their TWA 752s? I thought I heard they might want to get rid of them.

AA is returning the ex-TWA 757s to the lessor as the leases expire. They don't want the added cost of maintaining 2 versions of the 757s with different engines.
 
MGASJO
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:20 pm

Quoting Airwave (Reply 4):
Something like 80 examples, I think. Are they all -800s?

Total of 77 NGs. All -800s
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DAYflyer
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:25 am

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N1120A
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:06 am

It was about time. The fact that WN, with its excellent cost control, put winglets on their lighter 73Gs 3 years ago now (with much lower fuel prices) should have told AA something.
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HBIHLtoEZE
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:13 am

Nice and necessary move by AA, hopefully my next scheduled AA 738 flight (in August) will already be on one of 'em.

Well, as even FR considers them worthwile, you can expect them to be paying off in the longer term  silly 

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ckfred
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:50 am

Airwave:

The winglets add 5 feet or so to the wing span. The MD-80 has a wingspan of 107 feet, while the 737-800, without winglets, is 112 feet.

With winglets, the 737-800 is 117 feet, and the 757 is 124 feet.

Some of the gates at ORD were tight for a 737. Add 5 feet, and they become even tighter, or 737s simply won't fit.
 
airwave
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:52 pm

Ckfred, thanks for the info.

I never really thought about how close the wingspans (MD-80 to 738 to 757) actually get to each other, nor how tight some gates are. That ~2.5 feet extra tacked on seems like a lot by itself; I'm sitting here looking at my desk, which is about that deep, but I guess if one sees it in situ, it's not so weird.

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AviationAddict
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:38 pm

I remember reading another post a while back in which someone mentioned the price of retrofitting a 738 with winglets was around $1 million each, is this true?

Also, does anyone know how much it costs to have a 737NG prefitted with winglets on the assembly line?



Thanks.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:36 pm

American announced they have placed an order for 76 more 738 APB winglet conversion kits. AA has been flying a lone 738 equipped with the winglets for the past six months and has achieved on average a 3% reduction in fuel burn. Similar results were quotted for the five 757s that have been equipped with winglets. Fifteen more 757s are due for conversion through the next year.

These numbers were favorable enough for AA to move forward with an order to equip its entire 738 fleet, 77 aircraft in all, with the winglets. Installation will occur between May 2006 and September 2007.
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LTU932
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:41 pm

Indeed a very smart move by AA to retrofit all of their 738s with winglets! In these times of high oil prices, any saving you can make is a good saving.

In the long run, AA will benefit a lot from those savings.
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airwave
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 19):
In these times of high oil prices, any saving you can make is a good saving.

...Even if those savings cost you a little bit per plane up front, lol.

Random thought: Has AA said whether or not they'll paint the winglets?

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LTU932
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Airwave (Reply 20):
Even if those savings cost you a little bit per plane up front, lol.

Maybe that's the reason why some people at Boeing might be saying to AA: We told you so. Big grin

In any case, this is a small sacrifice they have to do in order to start saving more money in the long run.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
qqflyboy
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Airwave (Reply 20):
Random thought: Has AA said whether or not they'll paint the winglets?

From the examples already installed, yes. They are painted gray with blue, white and red stripes on them with AA.com titles.


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Cubsrule
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:49 am

Does AA have more 738s on order? If so, will they have Boeing put the factory winglets on?
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abirda
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Does AA have more 738s on order? If so, will they have Boeing put the factory winglets on?

AA has 47 additional 737-800s on order according to Boeing, but it is debatable as to whether any more will be taken. Those deliveries have already been deferred past 2010 and it seems likely that by then, converting those orders into a committment for the 737's replacement would be a smarter move on AA's part.

To answer your more immediate question, additional deliveries would almost certainly come with the winglets, and also would arrive without eyebrow windows, of course.
 
CannedSpam
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 7:59 am

It's not only wing-span that creates the gating problems. It is also because of the vertical nature of the winglet. There are many cases where AA composite parks 737 with 757, 767 or 777 meaning there is a little overlap of wing-spans from both aircraft. If there is enough vertical clearance, it is OK. The problem is that the winglets add about 6 feet in height which disallows any further composite parking in some places.
 
Garri767
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:21 am

i knew someday AA would follow in WN and CO's footsteps and get some winglets. I think it gives all aircraft a "Commanding look"  Wink


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tekelberry
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 15):
Some of the gates at ORD were tight for a 737. Add 5 feet, and they become even tighter, or 737s simply won't fit.

That won't be a problem for AA since they stopped flying their 737s into ORD a while ago in an effort to reduce costs.
 
aaden
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:37 am

does anybody have any numbers on AA savings with the winglets?
 
ckfred
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting AbirdA (Reply 24):
AA has 47 additional 737-800s on order according to Boeing, but it is debatable as to whether any more will be taken. Those deliveries have already been deferred past 2010 and it seems likely that by then, converting those orders into a committment for the 737's replacement would be a smarter move on AA's part.

A friend of mine is a pilot with AA. This is purely a rumor, so don't take it as fact. If AA becomes profitable this year and can sustain substantial profits, then it could push up the delivery dates for some or all of the 47 737s, to replace the oldest MD-80s. Besides the fact that the 737s are more efficient, have greater capacity and range, and have IFE, the oldest MD-80s are needing higher levels of maintenance.

You are right that the bulk of the MD-80 fleet won't be replaced by 737NGs. AA will probably wait for the 737 replacement. The only thing that is certain is that AA is not locked into delivery dates after 2010 for the 47 737s. Delievery dates can be pushed up.

Quoting Tekelberry (Reply 27):
That won't be a problem for AA since they stopped flying their 737s into ORD a while ago in an effort to reduce costs.

I know that the 737s have left ORD (read my first post), but if they ever come back, there won't be as many gates usuable for the 737 with winglets as there were before. Perhaps I should have used LGA as an example, since there are a number of gates that are tight, even for the MD-80s.
 
tekelberry
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 29):
I know that the 737s have left ORD (read my first post), but if they ever come back, there won't be as many gates usuable for the 737 with winglets as there were before.

What reason would AA have to bring them back? Even if AA does replace some MD80s with 737s, they could just replace the MD80 usage with the extra 737s in DFW and keep the MD80s in ORD.
 
AviationAddict
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Tekelberry (Reply 30):

What reason would AA have to bring them back? Even if AA does replace some MD80s with 737s, they could just replace the MD80 usage with the extra 737s in DFW and keep the MD80s in ORD.

Sooner than later they are going to have to replace all the MD80s though, then what will they do?
 
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fxramper
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:51 am

AA will be doing winglet installs at TUL maintenance facility.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c291/ringo3727/738winglet-2.jpg
 
tekelberry
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 31):

Sooner than later they are going to have to replace all the MD80s though, then what will they do?

1) That won't happen for many many years.

2) What ends up replacing the MD80 fleet will probably not be the 737 but the 737 replacement. We have no idea what the specifications of that aircraft will be.
 
AAR90
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
I wonder what kind of deal AA got from APB.

Extremely good and extremely private (i.e. secret).

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 2):
they plan on getting a few more 752s and adding winglets to those like CO. Can anyone confirm that?

False. As ex-TW leases expire those planes will be returned with no direct replacements.

Quoting Airwave (Reply 4):
So how long with the fleet-wide retrofit take; any educated extrapolations?

Scheduled from May 2006 to September 2007.

Quoting Airwave (Reply 4):
I know AA's 737NGs are relatively young, so why wouldn't they have gone for it as a factory-install?

Winglets were not an option when AA placed its initial 738 order.

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 6):
IIRC, AA's initial plan was to equip all of the 757s with winglets.

"American is also installing winglets on 20 Boeing 757s in Tulsa, five of which are in service. "

Quoting AbirdA (Reply 24):
AA has 47 additional 737-800s on order according to Boeing, but it is debatable as to whether any more will be taken. Those deliveries have already been deferred past 2010 and it seems likely that by then, converting those orders into a committment for the 737's replacement would be a smarter move on AA's part.

2012 is next "scheduled" delivery but your analysis is correct... it isn't in the active long-range plans.

Quoting AAden (Reply 28):
does anybody have any numbers on AA savings with the winglets?

"...winglets on both aircraft types will save the airline from 3.2 percent to 3.8 percent on fuel consumption, depending on the type of aircraft and route flown."
"These fuel savings will amount to approximately 100,000 gallons per year for each B737 and 200,000 gallons of fuel per year on each B757 equipped with winglets."
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flydreamliner
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:50 am

That's really impressive for fuel consumption reduction. Too bad that's just a drop in AA's fuel bucket with all those gas guzzling in their fleet.
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fxramper
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 34):
"...winglets on both aircraft types will save the airline from 3.2 percent to 3.8 percent on fuel consumption, depending on the type of aircraft and route flown."
"These fuel savings will amount to approximately 100,000 gallons per year for each B737 and 200,000 gallons of fuel per year on each B757 equipped with winglets."

I don't doubt your facts, but my uncle told me (after recentally flying one of the AA 75W out of STL) that it wasn't a huge difference in flying, just some added range.

What is your source for calculations? Thanks!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 36):
I don't doubt your facts, but my uncle told me (after recentally flying one of the AA 75W out of STL) that it wasn't a huge difference in flying, just some added range.

A couple of years ago, before all our 737-700s had the winglets installed, I had two MDW-LAS flights. One was running about 1:30 late, and was running at the exact same time as the next scheduled flight. Both flights had the same payloads, same arrival fuels, no MEL/CDL items, and were on the same route. IIRC, the wingletted aircraft burned 400-500 lbs less for the flight, and had a max takeoff weight off MDW that was about 4,500 lbs greater than that of the one without winglets.

Great mod!
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AAR90
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 36):
I don't doubt your facts, but my uncle told me (after recentally flying one of the AA 75W out of STL) that it wasn't a huge difference in flying, just some added range.

What is your source for calculations? Thanks!

AA's internal press release. Flight Dept. still hasn't provided exact data on 3DG's fuel savings and yes, I've asked numerous times.

I've flown 3DG about two dozen times and would agree with your uncle's basic assessment. A little more sensitive to roll and noticably more difficult to slow down. DFW to either coast I estimated savings in the one percent range. It was understood that AA wanted actual real fuel savings data so no special instructions or other changes to routing, loading, limits, etc. were (are to date) provided. To give an example of gate issues the winglets create, 3DG (the only winglet equipped 738) is prohibited from using 21 specific gates at DFW alone.
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flydreamliner
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:01 am

It must be! Everyone is retrofitting, they're getting added to 757s, and Airbus is working feverishly on copying them over for use on A320.
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ckfred
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RE: Winglets For All AA 737's

Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting Tekelberry (Reply 30):
What reason would AA have to bring them back? Even if AA does replace some MD80s with 737s, they could just replace the MD80 usage with the extra 737s in DFW and keep the MD80s in ORD.

Why? Because every UA and Ted airplane going beyond Denver has IFE. Or because ORD is going to be under FAA operational restrictions until the 3rd east-west runway opens. About the only way AA can get more seats into ORD is flying larger planes. A 737-800 has 12 more seats than an MD-80.

Look, my point is that AA's terminal at ORD has a lot of tight gates, which is probably the case at many other airports throughout AA's route system. With winglets, AA's 737s won't fit into a lot of gates that they could without winglets.

The reason that I've used ORD as my example, despite the fact that AA 737s no longer fly into ORD, is that I've lived near ORD for 43 years, so I far more familar with ORD than any other airport.

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