kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:42 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 45):
Hmmm, wasn't Herbie a co-writer of the Wright? He fought it at first, forced Jimmy to make a few revisions, and the two ultimately made a compromise that exists currently as the admendment. This relationship is why Herbie came out and said WN will NEVER fight Wright and the airline would adopt a "passionate neutrality" attitude towards it.

My comment was to DAL being open and WN operating from there. WN never signed on to the voluntary agreement to shift services to DFW and cease operations at DAL.

As for the Wright Amendment, Jim Wright contends that Kelleher drafted the amendment himself but no proof exists beyond Wright's statement and Kelleher refutes that. Kelleher didn't have a choice in the matter at all. Jim Wright was pushing legislation that would've shut down DAL entirely. It was only after intense lobbying of others in congress that he assented to the agreement as we know it. Kelleher didn't sign it, he couldn'tve signed it, he's not a member of Congress!
 
adriaticus
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
I am sure there would be plenty of Canadian or Caribbean/Mexican routes from DFW,

I don't think so... Most specially after MX and AM have recently dropped DFW.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
Why not campaign to get WN to fly from DFW instead? Same goal and same results right?

Not for WN's business plans, given DFW's astronomical fares...

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 29):
Why not campaign and repeal the W.A, same goal and results right?

Exactly.

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 46):
it spent 30 plus years attracting airlines and doing its best to create an environment that fosters all airlines competing equally with each other

At very high service fares, that is... And the result has been how successful...?? (Even with the full support and protection the WA entails!!)

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HPLASOps
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:31 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 49):
American is an excellent example. Yes, they agreed to move all operations to DFW. Signed the letter and everything. Yet they were able to move over to Love Field and offer 14 round trips a day to Austin in some sort of bizarre experiment to try and hurt Southwest. I don't recall anyone at DFW screaming about American violating their agreement. Then they decided (and succeeded) in putting Legend out of business. Now they've come to Love Field and are running flights to AUS, SAT, MCI, and STL. You don't see the DFW Airport Board sueing American to force them to abide by an agreement they signed to move all operations to DFW, do you?

No, but I did see WN suing to keep the rights to fly out of DAL even though all intentions were for commericial aviation to end there. Of all the things you can blame AA for, you chose that one? AA was merely protecting its investment at DFW by trying to force WN out of DAL to DFW where it belongs. When AA signed that agreement, they had no idea some upstart airline was gonna sue for the rights to operate out of Love, and that this pesky little airline was gonna stir up sh*t in the aviation world.

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 51):
Why not campaign to get WN to fly from DFW instead? Same goal and same results right?

Not for WN's business plans, given DFW's astronomical fares...

DFW doesn't charge fares....airlines do.

At any rate, does anyone know what WN's business plan is anymore? They'll claim that one airport doesn't fit their plan, while a similar size airport does. They'll claim to service untapped markets while ignoring other untapped markets. They want fast taxi times but then choose LAX, PHL, and DEN to provide service. So what is WN's business plan, and exactly how does DFW not work for them?
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:39 pm

Are DFW's fares really that higher ?? I looked around and seem to come up with average about $250 R/T. That is not an unreasonable fare. People can't keep expecting $100 R/Ts it just won't work. Out of EWR the fares are usually above $300 and I'm still flying out of EWR and I don't mind paying the high fare because I like helping CO. With the $300+ fares when I fly I mostly fly with business people and no jerry springer types who belong on Greyhound. I'm more than happy to pay $300 to fly CO out of EWR just to know that I won't have to put up with people like that. THE DAYS OF $100 FARES ARE ENDING !!
GET USED TO IT !!!!! Seriously $250 R/T DFW - LAX isn't unreasonable.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
blsbls99
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:56 pm

I use to fly PHX to Dallas for business a couple times a year. PHX-DFW fares were north of $1000 several times, even with Delta on the route.
So, who claimed WN is the Johnny Appleseed of low fares?
Who is saying they expect $100 fares anymore??
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adriaticus
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:16 pm

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 52):
DFW doesn't charge fares....airlines do.

I meant, fees.

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BHMNONREV
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 49):
As far as the reduction in gates, I'm not sure why that could be viewed as a good idea....but if I were Southwest, I would look at giving up gates in exchange for gate space at LaGuardia and (especially) Washington National. American has a lot of space at DCA. I don't see why they should not be forced to give up gates there to Southwest

I'm not exactly sure they would need to give up any gates, and in fact would probably stand to gain a few if this all plays out. I don't see any other airlines looking to start an influx of flights from Love, because like WN at DFW, Love probably does not fit their business model. WN would rather sacrifice providing service to the six million or so residents of the Metroplex for about 25% of that living in close proximity to DAL, in order to take advantage of the lower costs which DAL has to offer. For everyone else, it's all about market share, and getting that market share is best served thru DFW.

I could conceiveably see the majors serving DAL from their hubs with maybe 3-4 flights a day to serve the Dallas business traveller, but that's about it. So there is a possibility of 50-75 flights per day at DAL, tops, from someone other than WN.

With all that being said, I drink neither AA or WN kool-aid, have no vested interest whatsoever in DAL or DFW, but I am a firm believer in Wright repeal, because as many before me have stated, this is a local issue not a federal one. But with DFW being the airport designed to handle the traffic for the entire region, there does need to be limits as to how many gates/flights are used at Love Field, and I think the 250 per day is a good number. If an airline chooses to serve Love, they should have the right to fly empty 747's from DAL to BGR if they so desire.. (I only picked BGR because I can't think of anyplace farther in the lower 48) International, Alaska, Hawaii, Mexico...there is a pretty, brand-spanking new terminal at DFW which would love your business. And WN, when you hit your limit at DAL and want to expand, either set up another shop at DFW or reduce flights in other markets. But from Love you should be able to fly anywhere in the US.

I wonder why DFW chose to alter their Wright stance? Could this mean they think they are losing the battle, along with their credibility with the silly doom and gloom apocalypse mentality...
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 56):
I wonder why DFW chose to alter their Wright stance? Could this mean they think they are losing the battle, along with their credibility with the silly doom and gloom apocalypse mentality...

Yes it does mean they are losing the battle. From a recent story on DFW's change in stance on Wright:

The airport has been mostly silent on Wright for weeks and has replaced many of its billboards inviting Southwest to serve the larger regional airport with ads for its parking.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...tories/040606dnbusdfw.c6c6888.html


And from the files of "Oh no you didn't." Check out this letter to the editor from a professor at the University of North Texas named Bernard Wienstien. Bernard is that guy that the local media runs to for a quote about economic matters or what the latest 1/4 point increase in the Fed Funds rate will mean or the $1 increase in a barrel of crude. Every local media outlet around the country has one of these guys, just some background. Bernard was an outspoken critic of the Wright Amendment and an advocate for repeal during the Shelby Amendment/ Legend airlines time period. More recently, Bernard and his Center for Economic Development and Research were pAAid by the DFW airport board for a study on the economic effects the Delta departure had and how a repeal of the Wright Amendment would be devastating to the "economic engine" of North Texas. Curiously, Bernard is now against free markets and open competition for North Texas. I guess economic theory has changed in the last 10 years or maybe Bernard's personal economics have changed over the last 10 years.

Southwest lie is exposed
Re: "D.C. move a shift for Southwest," Wednesday Business.

Southwest Airlines has been caught in another lie. It has claimed it can't operate efficiently at congested airports like D/FW yet offers as many flights out of "congested" Los Angeles International as Love Field.

Now, it has announced new service from Dulles International, the most congested airport in the Washington, D.C., region.

D/FW has 40 empty gates and has offered Southwest free rent. But Southwest says no, because it "loves" its near-monopoly at Love and hopes to expand by getting rid of the Wright amendment.

Rather than spend $150,000 for yet another Love Field impact study, the Dallas City Council should push for closing Love Field to scheduled air service. Southwest will then have two options: move to D/FW or leave town.

Surely, it won't take the latter.

Bernard L. Weinstein, Dallas
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
scoljet
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 am

STOP the world I wanna get off!!! The insanity of the WA posts here are second only to the NW diesel 9 posts.
 
KarlB737
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:39 am

Back to the original topic: Gate Numbers At DAL Dictated by DFW

Does Ford tell Chevy how many dealers it can have in a specific city?

Does WalMart tell K-Mart how many stores it can have in a specific city?

Does New York tell Chicago how many baseball teams it can have or the other way around?

I agree the topic is worn out. But isn't it crystal clear what DFW is trying to do in a country where competition has always been part of the landscape. And will DFW tell Fort Worth Airport -- No to Skybus service at Meacham airport:

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6046

Lastly, and surely most important I know (as we all do) that this issue will be resolved outside of Airliners.Net so I am willing to state (speaking for myself) that we have two sides here where I hope these two sides are willing to at least say "We agree that we disagree".
 
isitsafenow
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:59 am

Waytogo Karl....
I could not care less about DFW, American, Love or Southwest
but I believe in an equal balanced field. Years ago when the Wright was born and after de-reg came to be, AA had Cart Blanche on were they go from DFW and Southwest was hindered by some stupid rule about going to neighboring states only. Now that Southwest has grown nand has airplanes that fly from coast to coast NS, the rules need to be changed. City of Dallas may WANT Southwest to move to DFW for all we know so they can bulldoze DAL and make it into an industrial park. Heaven knows, the land is worth a fortune.
If Southwest is to remain at DAL, the Wright should be repealed so the scales are equal....AA at DFW and Southwest at DAL...
That's it in a nutshell, gang.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 57):
How is a law that all players operate under anticompetitive?

Remember it is the Airlines that compete not airports.

It's not anticompetitive? It's a law that was crafted specifically to restrict WN's operations at DAL. Wright couched the amendment in terms of "protecting D/FW", but by 1979 that wasn't necessary any longer. The argument that WN shouldn't be operating from there in the first place is specious. The Supreme Court, time and time again, resoundingly upheld WN's rights to operate from DAL. Faced with the spectre of deregulation, Jim Wright, at the behest of the airlines, created the Wright Amendment. As originally written, it could've impacted MDW, LGA, SNA and many other reliever/satellite airports. Upon encountering intense pushback regarding that issue, he altered the agreement to specifically address Love Field.

Why's it anticompetitive? Because it limits the utility and usability of an airfield in a way that is unprecedented anywhere else in the nation. NO OTHER CASE of such restrictions exists. LGA and DCA have perimiter fences but none have the restrictions that DAL does which are specifically written to inhibit the operations of a specific carrier. Given that the highest court in the land upheld the right of WN to operate from DAL, why then should DAL be subject to restrictions no other airport is? It's not that WN can move to DFW. They shouldn't have to.

If you are trying to state that the WA is not anticompetitive, please explain why it is that the amendment was only enacted upon deregulation when WN would've been free to fly wherever they pleased, and why this amendment only SPECIFICALLY refers to Love Field. I'm very surprised WN didn't challenge the constitutionality of the amendment at the time. I have the feeling "passionate neutrality" was borne of a desire to stay out of the courts for a while even though WN likely could've won a challenge to have the WA struck down. AA, BN, etc got what they wanted in restricting competition out of DAL, WN could grow out of HOU and elsewhere as they pleased and got to stay out of court for a while, thereby not bleeding legal fees. Now, we're 25 years past that, D/FW's status is set in stone as the airport for the region, and DAL is still under the same restrictions it was back in 1979.

If you'll recall, D/FW opposed the Shelby amendment and predicted doom and gloom back in 1997. It hasn't come to pass. DL's failure at DFW has zero to do with the Wright Amendment and everything to do with an inability to compete with AA at it's fortress hub. So, now that the WA is on the verge of being repealed, D/FW and AA are going to do everything they can to protect their back yard. That's only proper business and I would be disappointed if they DIDN'T. Still, even they see the writing on the wall. If they had a hope of keeping the WA intact, they wouldn't be trying stalling tactics such as trying to get WN to agree to take no action until October 2006 (when the session is over, effectively delaying action until 2007). They wouldn't be coming to the table. We'll see how it turns out but it's not looking very good for proponents of Wright.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 57):
Good for you.

You asked the question. I answered it. I don't fly WN. I don't LIKE flying WN. I've paid AA $400 for a one way ticket specifically to avoid flying WN DAL-HOU-CRP on a ticket already paid. Yet, I still support repeal of the WA because it is wrong. It won't have the disastrous effects predicted by D/FW and AA. The sky didn't fall in 1997 with the Shelby amendment and it's not going to fall now. IMO repeal the f'ing thing, get it behind us, and let's roll on.
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rul

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 56):
I wonder why DFW chose to alter their Wright stance? Could this mean they think they are losing the battle, along with their credibility with the silly doom and gloom apocalypse mentality...

My guess is that Kay Bailey went to AA and the D/FW airport board and told 'em she had a snowball's chance in hell opposing the repeal and they'd better make a deal and fast or else lose it all. Were I WN at this point I'd probably tell 'em to pound sand.

[Edited 2006-04-08 19:12:25]
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Adriaticus (Reply 51):
I don't think so... Most specially after MX and AM have recently dropped DFW.

If you continued to read the remainder of the post, I also mentioned the Caribbean and Bahamas, or is the O&D on FL to ATL and then onto Grand Bahama too low to support any service? If that's the case then WN to go international and open up this route would be silly... Anyway, here's the rest of that post...

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
like DFW-CUN/MBJ/Grand Cayman or Bahama Island. But this is rather irrelevant for the time being I think...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rul

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 43):
PA,

I can tell you one thing... people on the Western side of PA are already about as disenchanted with Southwest as they were with USAirways as soon as they saw how quickly those $29 Chicago fares disappeared and that it's now no cheaper than Chicago was in the ATA days... Vegas is no cheaper than it ever was... and others. Not to mention Southwest's promises of 40+ flights in PIT, and we're still at 20 a year later. Don't count on votes from Mr. Specter, and considering Casey, after he beats Moron Santorum, is from AVP, he definitely won't care about SWA because AVP is way too far away from him. So I spoke for my state, there's your one great hope. And don't forget, in the Senate it doesn't matter how big states are. Everyone gets 2 votes. Rhode Island is just as important as Texas.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 64):
Don't count on votes from Mr. Specter, and considering Casey, after he beats Moron Santorum, is from AVP, he definitely won't care about SWA because AVP is way too far away from him.

Terrific... something else to look forward to. I have been hearing about how WN wants to add more flights and destinations, and we have not seen any new service since they agreed to add PHX and Tampa. What is this, monkey-see monkey-do here? The only thing Western PA has gotten as of late from the rather intelligent politicians we have as of late was the shaft. We're only at 20 flights now to a half-dozen places. Is PIT not good enough anymore???   

I'd be for organizing some protest and having everyone take US flights over WN to Chicago, PHL, PHX, LAS, MCO, and Tampa. Then again, everyone would lose here I am sure. Would WN really care if they lost people to US regarding their incompetence to add PIT service and therefore anounce more service to bring back its pax, and would US care, or even want to add service back to PIT because of this influx of pax...

[Edited 2006-04-08 19:41:50]
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
stirling
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:37 am

Quote:
"If Skybus does operate out of the City and is successful, then it could be a real boon for our stockyards and cultural district," a typewritten outline says. "Could mean more tax dollars and jobs."

So an airline serving Ft Worth would provide jobs and tax revenue, but an airline serving Dallas is bad for children and a drain on city resources?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 31):
You get a bone sufficient for Southwest needs and you want the whole cow? That's just stupid.

Well for one thing, the WA is not so much about Southwest as it is about competition at Love Field. This DFW compromise is about as attractive as their offer of free rent, as long as they had final say on what routes would be flown.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 31):
I beleive you were refering to a commment by the reporter.

So? The comment was made in regards to the DFW proposal.
My position stands. This so-called "Compromise" is just another attempt at DFW to call the shots.

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 59):
Does Ford tell Chevy how many dealers it can have in a specific city?

Does WalMart tell K-Mart how many stores it can have in a specific city?

Does New York tell Chicago how many baseball teams it can have or the other way around?

No, No, and No.
And thats what this is all about. In this free market economy we have glaring examples of anti-competitive government meddling and corporate favouritism.

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 57):
Southwest lie is exposed
Re: "D.C. move a shift for Southwest," Wednesday Business.

Southwest Airlines has been caught in another lie. It has claimed it can't operate efficiently at congested airports like D/FW yet offers as many flights out of "congested" Los Angeles International as Love Field.

Now, it has announced new service from Dulles International, the most congested airport in the Washington, D.C., region.

D/FW has 40 empty gates and has offered Southwest free rent. But Southwest says no, because it "loves" its near-monopoly at Love and hopes to expand by getting rid of the Wright amendment.

Rather than spend $150,000 for yet another Love Field impact study, the Dallas City Council should push for closing Love Field to scheduled air service. Southwest will then have two options: move to D/FW or leave town.

Surely, it won't take the latter.

Bernard L. Weinstein, Dallas

Bernie, Bernie, Bernie.....
Where do we start?

First off, neither IAD or LAX is dominated and controlled by one uber-airline as is DFW.

The monopoly, for lack of any better word, can be challenged at any point, and it is now as we speak. Airlines have been free to serve DAL for a while. With three airlines serving DAL, WN, CO and AA, how is this a monopoly and AA at DFW is not?

We've discussed the free rent issue, amazed it is still being trotted out..

Are you really saying DAL should be closed? Why would Dallas want to get rid of the revenue? And I'm not talking about direct revenues from operations, but all the in-direct tax revenue that goes directly to the city and county of Dallas.
It is no spare change.
Why is it then that Ft Worth is salivating over an airline coming to town and the tax money it will bring, but when the same model is applied to Dallas, it is just chump change that wouldn't be missed. Bernie, I would have thought someone with a big brain like yours would be able to see such elementary facts of the game. That is unless you've been tainted? Don't tell us you have been bought? Shame shame shame.
Delete this User
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 65):

I'd be for organizing some protest and having everyone take US flights over WN to Chicago, PHL, PHX, LAS, MCO, and Tampa

Saves the hometown jobs. PIT is nothing but a base for a few ramp workers/CSA's for WN, for US it's some pilots, etc. I might be rather anti-US here in Allentown, but if I'm flying out of PIT I still keep my allegiance towards the hometown kids. Dan Onorato's "We don't need US" mantra made a point in the short term, but it was kind of stupid long term. I look for JetBlue to be the new chosen son for Mr. Onorato though as soon as they start flying.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 66):
First off, neither IAD

Umm... been there lately? Since Independence died, it's quite heavily a United playground. It's basically an outstation for everyone else.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 66):
The monopoly, for lack of any better word,

I used that word in other posts do describe AA's presence in Dallas. They essentially dominate the Dallas market. WN is not happy with this; they whine about how they do not have nation-wide service out of DAL, while AA serves every market, pretty much, out of DFW. They don't like how AA can pretty much dominate the Dallas market while they have nothing.

Some people on here argue that the W.A. being lifted is all about WN and how they can serve the entire country as soon as it is lifted, and other people on here talk about how removing the amendment will allow for competition at Dallas. I would like for WN to serve the entire country myself, and I would also like to see Dallas be more of a competitive market.

Suppose the WA is removed. WN flies to every market in the country, and AA has to figure out a way to still be profitable and keep its pax. They have to restructure to offer lower fares to their customers. Heaven forbid that they offer lower fares, that would be just wrong...  sarcastic 

Suppose that the amendment is not removed. if WN still wants to serve the country, the they can stop whining and relocate to DFW. They have been promised their own terminal, own runways pretty much. So, they have to pay higher landing fees and international fees for something they don't even use... If they go international and open up a Grand Bahama, Cayman route, or something of the type, then the international fee would be necessary, and I do see WN going international someday. Look at FL in ATL. They are in a market dominated by DL. Yet, they have high landing fees there I am sure, but they are still a LCC and have lower fares and have considerable pax loads there. They have to pay the international fee like any other airline serving the facility, but they also have the ATL-Grand Bahama route, so for them it's necessary...

Another argument regarding WN's move to DFW: DAL is centrally located among the business travelers who fly the airline for business purposes. Then why can't they build an improved transportatin system to link the DAL-area to DFW... Then they wouldn't have to fight traffic on the interstate highways and Dallas-streets to get to DFW...

These are all just thoughts... I know that some of you on here will say that this is not logical, and that's fine with me. Many of you seem to think that I am not logical with my reasoning anyway...

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 67):
Saves the hometown jobs. PIT is nothing but a base for a few ramp workers/CSA's for WN, for US it's some pilots, etc. I might be rather anti-US here in Allentown, but if I'm flying out of PIT I still keep my allegiance towards the hometown kids. Dan Onorato's "We don't need US" mantra made a point in the short term, but it was kind of stupid long term. I look for JetBlue to be the new chosen son for Mr. Onorato though as soon as they start flying.

Yeah, in a way that did hurt him; he essentially burned a few bridges with that. I am also looking for B6 to really fill in some of the gaps there as well. I think that they will be very profitable in PIT as soon as they begin service. $64 one way to JFK is supremely cheap compared to what US is charging on that route. People here have been whining about this for a while, it seems...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 67):
Since Independence died, it's quite heavily a United playground

I took that into consideration. But the proof remains, IAD does not have the 800+ dailies on one airline that DFW does with AA.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 65):
I have been hearing about how WN wants to add more flights and destinations, and we have not seen any new service since they agreed to add PHX and Tampa.

I am thinking that WN will add service to PIT when the market dictates such.

The reason for IAD was a defensive move in protection of BWI.
WN stated publicly that when Indy was operating at IAD, they saw a reduction in their BWI boardings. Now that they are gone, they have started service to IAD to prevent it from happening again.
This usurped anything they might have planned for PIT.

And does WN owe anything to PIT?

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 64):
people on the Western side of PA are already about as disenchanted with Southwest as they were with USAirways as soon as they saw how quickly those $29 Chicago fares disappeared and that it's now no cheaper than Chicago was in the ATA days... Vegas is no cheaper than it ever was...

The $29 fare was an introductory offer. Every airline does it, even the divine jetBlue.
If low fares are that hard to find, it is because they are being booked, not because WN is not offering them...WN does not play that game.

But if the fine folks of Western PA are that unhappy with WN as you say, why should WN bring any new service to town? If the local markets really is that disenchanted, who is it then is snatching up all the low-fares and filling the seats?

Why should an airline ticket to Chicago be cheaper now than when it was when ATA had the route? Is not the price of jet fuel has all-time highs?
If one airline in this country has influence on fares, it is WN. Good for them in bringing airline fares in-line with reality.
The country doesn't have a capacity problem but rather a pricing problem. Some routes cost as much as four months worth of mortgage payments while others can be had for the cost of dinner for two at a respectable restaraunt....
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steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 69):
And does WN owe anything to PIT?

I never said that they did. I am just not sure why they didn't add anymore service there. I kept hearing that they were pleased with their service at PIT and said that more flights and destinations were coming. A WN spokesman said that they started out with 10 flights and have doubled to 20 flights within 6 months of service, which yields hight demand for WN flights. Yet, none have been offered. That is all that I am saying. I guess that they are not sure of what do add there, or maybe they want something that nobody wants to give them out there. I dunno...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 69):
The $29 fare was an introductory offer. Every airline does it, even the divine jetBlue.
If low fares are that hard to find, it is because they are being booked, not because WN is not offering them...WN does not play that game.

I knew that myself. I should have stated that but I didn't. Foolish me... Some of those flights are completely booked some two weeks before the actuall flight occurs, especially on PHL and MDW flights. The introductory fare was only supposed to last until the end of May, but I guess demand was so high for those fares that the period was extended till the end of August... I wonder if B6 will do the same when they start flyin. I imagine they will, but I don't see promotional fares or what have you going any higher than $79 bucks or so on this route... Even at $59 one way on WN to PHL from PIT, how much was US's lowest fare on that route before WN came to town...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 69):

Why should an airline ticket to Chicago be cheaper now than when it was when ATA had the route? Is not the price of jet fuel has all-time highs?

Is not Southwest still hedge to the same prices ATA was paying, making your question moot? ATA never came in saying "You're now free from high fares." Southwest is the biggest hype brigade around.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 69):

And does WN owe anything to PIT?

Who said they do? You love putting words in other people's mouths.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 72):
Who said they do? You love putting words in other people's mouths.

Apparently you and I feel the same way about that one  Wink
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CentPIT
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 73):
Apparently you and I feel the same way about that one

As do I! WN will add PIT service in due time!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 74):
As do I! WN will add PIT service in due time!

I am thinking either another FLA destination or NE, like ISP, PVD, or MHT...
IND is another possibility I would imagine...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
legion242
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 9):
nobody can make more than $30K because you are taking too much money from their business.

My bosses say that to me every month!!!
Don't make me release the monkeys!!
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 72):
Is not Southwest still hedge to the same prices ATA was paying, making your question moot? ATA never came in saying "You're now free from high fares." Southwest is the biggest hype brigade around.

Like hell they are. This isn't about who can sell the cheapest fare. WN will, at times, be higher than the majors. Where WN excels is that their unrestricted tickets are often half or less what the legacies charge. THAT is where the "low fare" comes in and it's no hype, it's a fact.

Compare AA fares to similar markets where WN competes and where it doesn't. Here's an example; last minute trip, gotta go from CHI to PIT Monday, not sure when we're coming back so we're booking a one way.

WN? $98 refundable anytime. AA? $233 for the same unrestricted ticket. Gotta go from DFW? God help you, it's going to cost you $649 on AA. Can't check out WN 'cause, why, THEY CAN'T FLY THAT ROUTE! Need to go from Houston? $407 on AA IAH-ORD-PIT and one leg on an ERD. WN? $280 out of HOU, connecting via MDW. Gee, sure as heck doesn't sound like hype to me.

NO airline is going to have the lowest fare on every route every time. Consistently though, for business travel when you need flexibility, WN is less expensive. THIS is exactly why AA is scared to death of the WA being repealed and why so many people want it. They're tired of Dallas being a captive market. Call it hype, call it whatever you want. You can't argue with facts.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 49)

American is an excellent example. Yes, they agreed to move all operations to DFW. Signed the letter and everything. Yet they were able to move over to Love Field and offer 14 round trips a day to Austin in some sort of bizarre experiment to try and hurt Southwest. I don't recall anyone at DFW screaming about American violating their agreement. Then they decided (and succeeded) in putting Legend out of business. Now they've come to Love Field and are running flights to AUS, SAT, MCI, and STL. You don't see the DFW Airport Board sueing American to force them to abide by an agreement they signed to move all operations to DFW, do you?


No, because the Department of Transportation ruled that DFW airport has no legal authority to enforce those use agreements AA (or any other airline, for that matter) signed years ago to move all their ops to DFW.

Remember back when Congress passed the Shelby Amendment? Fort Worth filed suit against Dallas the next day seeking to block the expanded service authorized by the Shelby Amendment. Dallas turned around and countersued Fort Worth and asked the DOT to clarify several issues.

One of the issues DOT ruled on was whether a major carrier may bind itself through its use agreements with the DFW Airport Board that it will not exercise the authority granted by its certificate to operate flights from Love Field that are consistent with the Wright and Shelby Amendments.

DOT's ruling on that particular issues was as follows:

The DFW use agreements cannot block an airline from offering interstate service at Love Field. Like Fort Worth and Dallas, DFW has no authority to restrict an airline's use of Love Field. The Department disagrees with the DFW Board's contention that its agreements constitute an enforceable waiver by the airlines of any rights to use Love Field -- insofar as the use agreements bar an airline from operating at an airport competing with DFW, the agreements are unenforceable.

Source

That's why DFW and the Ft. Worth parties aren't suing AA for violating it's use agreements and that's also why no one sued Ft. Worth for "allowing" Mesa service at Meacham several years ago, in spite of their agreement with the City of Dallas.

Just another one of those "agreements" that turned out to be "legally unenforceable."

LoneStarMike

 
Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 77):
AA? $233 for the same unrestricted ticket.

Why the hell would you compare AA on that route? They're the #4 carrier (and a distant #4) on PIT-Chicago. Obviously, your "I hate AA" sentiment is shining through again. Want a much better comparison, look at US, or UA.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 77):
THEY CAN'T FLY THAT ROUTE! Need to go from Houston? $407 on AA IAH-ORD-PIT and one leg on an ERD. WN? $280 out of HOU, connecting via MDW. Gee, sure as heck doesn't sound like hype to me.

They CAN fly that route, they CHOOSE not to. But the more important question... WHY would you fly AA on IAH-PIT? Continental is direct, and is as cheap as WN's connection through MDW! AGAIN, your "I hate AA" sentiment is shining through. If you're going out of your way to be flying AA, you should pay more on PIT-IAH! Likewise with PIT-Chicago... AA has never been a major player on that route, and never will be. Way to lose credibility by choosing routes where AA is obviously just an after thought but acting as if AA is doing some great disservice to travelers... and proving what this is all about, that you hate AA.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 77):
You can't argue with facts.

Fact: Your comparisons were nothing but BS because you picked the wrong airline for the route, only because you all have a vendetta against said airline.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 57)

Bernard was an outspoken critic of the Wright Amendment and an advocate for repeal during the Shelby Amendment/ Legend airlines time period.

I remember him. Back in October, 1997 The Dallas Observer ran that feature article The (W)right to FLY. (Excellent article and still online here.)

He's quoted on page 2 as saying:

"Every story the politicians tell about the need to preserve the Wright Amendment--protecting the bond holders, keeping the peace between Dallas and Fort Worth, noise, safety--they are all code words used to protect American Airline's monopoly," says Bernard Weinstein, director of the Center for Economic Development at the University of North Texas.

Time$ chAAnge, I guess.

LoneStarMike

 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:55 am

Whenever I compare two airlines, particular the PIT-PHL route, I always compare US and WN, but then, those are the only two airlines that serve that route anyway. Although one time I DID lose some credibility for a post regarding what US' fare was, but that was because I forgot to mention that that given fare was for the route back in 2003-2004; WN wasn't even anounced yet... Now their lowest fares start at what now...

Um... those of you choosing WN anytime soon, I have some bad news, they're no longer the cheaper airline on PIT-PHL... US has em beat... $78 round trip plus taxes and fees... SHEEESH... its $98.60 on US AIRWAYS!!!!!!!!!

How about our favorite airline now, Southwest...
Okay... nevermind... it's the same exact price as Southwest... $98.60; I though that WN was charging as much as $49 or $59 one way on PIT-PHL...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
stirling
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 72):
You love putting words in other people's mouths.

No I don't and I didn't. You're too defensive.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 70):
I never said that they did.

And I never said you did.

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 77):
Like hell they are

Thanks for the backup.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 79):
you hate AA.

And by your own admission, so do you.

A discussion between folks who allow personal vendettas and emotions enter into the mix is a supreme waste of time. There can never be an agreement or compromise at that point.
This is much better conversation when personal feelings are left at the door...
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dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 78):
Just another one of those "agreements" that turned out to be "legally unenforceable."

So of the two "legally unenforceable" agreements, one being the Dallas and Ft. Worth agreement to phase out commercial service from DAL, FTW, RBD, and Greater Southwestern and the second the use agreements signed by AA and the others, why have the Ft. Worth and DFW contingent cried that only the first "legally unenforceable" agreement is "a deal is a deal." If it does not matter that the courts ruled the commercial closure of DAL legally unenforceable and should still be shut down, then why haven't DFW and Ft. Worth objected to AA's service at DAL regardless of the legality of the use agreement?
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 82):
And I never said you did.

And what would I owe to PIT, a "no parking" sign, or a "the white zone is for loading and unloading of passengers only" sign, or how about one of those supremely old USAir baggage bins from 25 years ago  Smile
Honestly, I don't even think anyone would care... Big grin
All in humor here sir...
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stirling
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 84):
All in humor here sir...

Appreciated. Things get to serious in here sometimes.
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Tornado82
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 82):

And by your own admission, so do you.

But that doesn't stop me from seeing that the Wright Amendment is still a good thing, now does it?
 
kanebear
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 79):
Why the hell would you compare AA on that route? They're the #4 carrier (and a distant #4) on PIT-Chicago. Obviously, your "I hate AA" sentiment is shining through again. Want a much better comparison, look at US, or UA.

I hate AA? Gee, I must hate 'em an awful lot to be Executive Platinum AND to have qualified on points, NOT miles. Not only do I fly 'em, I pay to fly 'em in premium class. AA is my preferred carrier, I love the job they do and think they are absolutely first rate. You, sir, once again, are very very wrong.Also, the entire illustration was to show you where WN does indeed have significantly lower fares than AA. You, wrong, again. Seems to be a common theme.

As for why compare AA on that route? Here's a clue; ORD is a hub for them, and this discussion is ALL about AA vs. WN, the Wright Amendment, DFW attempting to dictate how many gates WN gets at DAL and whether or not the Wright Amendment should remain. Stands to reason that we'd want to discuss AA, doesn't it???

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 79):
They CAN fly that route, they CHOOSE not to. But the more important question... WHY would you fly AA on IAH-PIT? Continental is direct, and is as cheap as WN's connection through MDW! AGAIN, your "I hate AA" sentiment is shining through. If you're going out of your way to be flying AA, you should pay more on PIT-IAH! Likewise with PIT-Chicago... AA has never been a major player on that route, and never will be. Way to lose credibility by choosing routes where AA is obviously just an after thought but acting as if AA is doing some great disservice to travelers... and proving what this is all about, that you hate AA.

Please explain how WN can fly DAL-PIT. They're prohibited by the Wright Amendment from doing so. As for CO, they have nothing to do with the discussion. Again, I'm comparing apples to apples on using AA vs. WN. I can't compare flying WN from DAL to PIT as they don't fly the route nor do they price such a fare. It's illegal to do so.

The point here, which I can see that you're missing time and time again is that AA's pricing ex-DFW reflects a monopoly. You say I should pay more on PIT-IAH if I'm flying AA. No, I'll pay less than if I flew n/s PIT-DFW. Why would I want to fly AA? It's that entire miles/status thing and I happen to want to stick to my preferred carrier, thanks. You don't think PIT is a good example? Fine, pick another city.

Were Wright not in place, AA would have competition on those routes and wouldn't be able to price-gouge. I have seen and shown where AA charges HUNDREDS less to fly out of IAH/SAT/AUS/CRP/etc and connect to a nonstop out of DFW than it charges to fly on that same nonstop out of DFW. CO does not price that way out of IAH. I can dig up the thread if you like.

So, there you have it. Not only do I not hate AA but I'm one of their top-tier elites. I still assert that Wright needs to go. It's protectionist and anti-competitive. AA won't fold when Wright is repealed and as they experienced in MIA when they cut fares there they MIGHT just see an earnings increase from increased traffic.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 79):
Fact: Your comparisons were nothing but BS because you picked the wrong airline for the route, only because you all have a vendetta against said airline.

Fact, you have not and still do not have a clue what you're talking about.

[Edited 2006-04-09 07:51:08]
 
HPLASOps
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:11 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 87):
Please explain how WN can fly DAL-PIT. They're prohibited by the Wright Amendment from doing so. As for CO, they have nothing to do with the discussion. Again, I'm comparing apples to apples on using AA vs. WN. I can't compare flying WN from DAL to PIT as they don't fly the route nor do they price such a fare. It's illegal to do so.

That's easy one, all WN has to do is move over to DFW and they can fly wherever they damn well please.
"Just because I know how to get off a freeway doesn't mean I know how to get back on!" - Retard Joe
 
blsbls99
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:23 pm

How about all of the states that are covered by the Wright and Shelby Amendment can only be served out of DAL, and not DFW? You think American would like to do that?
How about these anti-competitive, protectionist Amendments are repealed, and then any airline in this country can fly any where they'd like to in this deregulated environment??
319 320 313 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 742 752 763 772 CRJ D9S ERJ EMB L10 M88 M90 SF3 AT4
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 87):
AA won't fold when Wright is repealed and as they experienced in MIA when they cut fares there they MIGHT just see an earnings increase from increased traffic.

He's not worried about AA being hurt by a Wright repeal, just like your MIA example, fares will come down and AA will see an increase in traffic at DFW. What concerns T82 is the market potential for WN. He doesn't want WN to have any opportunity for success and is actively looking for a way to punish or hurt WN. As he has stated in many previous posts, WN is on a "high horse" and needs to be "knocked down." As I've said before, you can't rationalize someone away from a position that they arrived at irrationally.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
OPNLguy
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 90):
As I've said before, you can't rationalize someone away from a position that they arrived at irrationally.

Amen to that;precisely why I didn't exend that other thread to a part-4, or participate in this one, just too much of a waste of time arguing with armchair CEOs...

Article in the Dallas Morning News this morning... (www.bugmenot.com if it asks for registration)

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ies/040906dnbuswright.30ffc5c.html
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:10 am

OPNLguy, that article spoke of a new authority for Dallas, a regional airport authority. What would that do with regard to the Wright Amendment, essentially set some new rules and regs or something of the type essentially nullifying the W.A. even further?

Something else I got out of the article, although this is nothing new, is that WN would likely have to cut its presence there drastically. Perhaps it would cut its gates down to 15 or 16 from 21, as AA has stated that it wants something of the same size as WN at Love should WA be lifted. Given that Continental and (I forget the other airline that is there, and your link is no longer letting me access the article. They want me to pay some lameass subscription for one article?!! I hate it when online newspapers do this!) Anyway, that could possibly shrink WN's presence even further at Love if they want more gates, and that's just what I am getting out of that article; just my opinions and thoughts here...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 92):
They want me to pay some lameass subscription for one article?!!

That's why I included the www.bugmenot.com address, so you can access the article in case it asked for registration...

Try:

Username [email protected]
Password bugmenot

It's certainly a theoretical possibility that SWA could end up with less than 21 gates, and I think we're just going to all have to wait it out and see what happens. It think a big variable will be the 6 gates at the old Legend terminal, which some are suggesting be torn down. Although the 6 gates there were designed with a DC-9-32 in mind, the gates are fully suitable for RJ-sized aircraft. The gates are privately owned, and if the City wants to knock them all down, the owners say they're worth $100M. Even if they're really only worth a tenth of that, I don't see where the City has $10M laying around to pay for it.

I think that everyone involved realizes that Wright repeal and a regional airport authority are two separate issues.

[Edited 2006-04-09 17:33:45]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
steeler83
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 93):
I think that everyone involved realizes that Wright repeal and a regional airport authority are two separate issues.

That's what I got out of reading that article. I though "how would that involve repealing the Wright Amendment? What would that do exactly regarding the Wright Amendment," which is exactly the question I had posted in my previous post...

And I tried that username and password u gave me, and it worked. CO is the only other carrier besides AA at Love... If the WA is removed, and WN is forced to reduce its gates there, then I suppose they'd be left with 14 gates from 21... WN would get 14, AA 14 and CO would double its gates to 4, providing they want to expand their presence at Love.

Are those 6 unused gates part of the 32 gates at Love now? Wait, I guess they are, if WN has 21, AA 3 and CO 2, that totals 26 used gates leaving those 6... I am not sure where the city would pay for that either even if it was worth one tenth of what they said their worth was. It would be nice to expand Love though if WA was lifted. Increase the number of gates that AA and WN would use, but that would cost money to tear down that old -gate terminal and even more to construct a newer, bigger, more suitable facility for AA and WN. If they were to do that I suppose they could add an international facility, but that is lofty and entirely pointless. But what if WN intends to go international in the future like some of us here, including myself, are thinking? Do you think that is likely in the future, not necessarily this year or next? (I know I am making is seem that build an international facility at love has some merit, but that is not what I intend to say. If WN goes international at some point they will need international gates and would likely have to move to DFW. I just want to know what your thoughts are on this, besides the one that I must be off my rocker...)
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 94):
WN would get 14, AA 14 and CO would double its gates to 4, providing they want to expand their presence at Love.

I see SWA with more than 14, and with no more than 21...  Wink

I don't think international service is in the forseeable future...

As I mentioned earlier, the Legend Terminal has 6 gates that could handle RJs, so (and again, this is theoretical) CoEx could move over there and run a RJ operation out of there, which would free-up their two gates at the main terminal for use by AA or other airlines.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:14 am

I've been enjoying the B-17, B-25, and B-24 that have been using DAL in conjunction with the tour through the Frontiers of Flight Museum. http://www.flightmuseum.com/docs/fofm_collings.pdf

With the wind out of the south this morning they have been making some nice low approaches and those machines are beautiful. I can just imagine the occupied people in Western Europe watching them fly over head and hearing the sweet sound of freedom.

As far as I can tell from my roof, no children were harmed, no satellite systems damaged and no kittens annihilated during the operation of these aircraft.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 59):
Back to the original topic: Gate Numbers At DAL Dictated by DFW

Does Ford tell Chevy how many dealers it can have in a specific city?

Does WalMart tell K-Mart how many stores it can have in a specific city?

Does New York tell Chicago how many baseball teams it can have or the other way around?

I agree the topic is worn out. But isn't it crystal clear what DFW is trying to do in a country where competition has always been part of the landscape. And will DFW tell Fort Worth Airport -- No to Skybus service at Meacham airport:

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6046

Lastly, and surely most important I know (as we all do) that this issue will be resolved outside of Airliners.Net so I am willing to state (speaking for myself) that we have two sides here where I hope these two sides are willing to at least say "We agree that we disagree".

DFW and DAL are the same market. This proposal essentially makes DAL and DFW the same facility in terms of use within the market carving out predictable capacity for WN at DAL. It's a compromise that allows WN to fly where they want to out of the North Texas market, and provides them with ample gate space. Revenue streams and investment as a result of the regional authority can also be shared between the airports creating a situation where both airports benefit by operating together vs. against each other. If that's somehow a problem then maybe some of you need to get your heads unscrewed. All of the airports in the region need to be under one agency. Period.

[Edited 2006-04-09 18:20:19]
 
dalneighbor
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 97):
Revenue streams and investment as a result of the regional authority can also be shared between the airports creating a situation where both airports benefit by operatign together vs. against each other. If that's somehow a problem then maybe some of you need to get your heads unscrewed.

On paper, that looks reasonable. The fear in Dallas is that the regional airport authority will not make any investments in facilities at DAL all the while diverting all the revenues from DAL to DFW. In essence, WN then subsidizes AA's operations and DAL deteriorates beyond a usable level. That is the fear now and it was the fear in 1968 when Dallas residents voted in down then. Because of the track record of Ft. Worth and the DFW airport board, the idea of a regional airport authority has a snowball's chance in hell of passing a city or county vote in Dallas. The only hope for something like that is a change in state law that would allow it to be created in a smoke filled back room without a public vote.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: DFW Wants Gate Limit At DAL To Lift Wright Rules

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 98):
On paper, that looks reasonable. The fear in Dallas is that the regional airport authority will not make any investments in facilities at DAL all the while diverting all the revenues from DAL to DFW. In essence, WN then subsidizes AA's operations and DAL deteriorates beyond a usable level. That is the fear now and it was the fear in 1968 when Dallas residents voted in down then. Because of the track record of Ft. Worth and the DFW airport board, the idea of a regional airport authority has a snowball's chance in hell of passing a city or county vote in Dallas. The only hope for something like that is a change in state law that would allow it to be created in a smoke filled back room without a public vote.

Then the public needs a lesson in airport finance and how the FAA requires funding for a facility to be at a level consistant with the operational demands within a system of airports. In other words, if what you describe were to happen, the Operating Authority would be ass deep in fines from the FAA and some would actualy be subject to spending some time in Jail. One only has to look at how misappropriation of funds was dealt with in the City of Detroit where "Wayne County Regional Airport Authority" emerged by force of Senate Bill 690 after revenue diversion was uncovered by the FAA by the City of Detroit. The FAA doesn't screw around with misapropriation of funds.

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