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newagebird
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:51 am

Lost In Translation

Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:55 am

yo fellow a.netters

Am writing a paper on 'communication barriers within the flight deck'. Was wondering if anyone had any examples of mix ups with their flight crew member. All stories welcome! It can be based on culture, language or just plain jargon mix ups.

rgds newagebird
p.s appreciate any help given
 
nwajetset
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:35 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:09 pm

There are quite a few common ones that float around the industry. I'm not sure how true they are, they may just be urban legend, How accurate do you need them to be?

One example we were told in FA training ( to point out the importance of CRM and communication I'm sure) was this:
On flight xxx from blah to blah blah, a pax and FA noticed (sparks, fire, little man on the wing, etc.). The FA runs up to inform the cockpit. She calls on the interphone, relays the info, and the captain, preparing to shut down the affected engine asks which engine. She hastily replies "The left one". Unfortunately, she meant HER left. On an aircraft, the captain's left when seated is ALWAYS aircraft left. So with one engine in distress and the other shut down on a two engine aircraft, the out come was disastrous. Such a tiny error can bring about such grave consequences. (As I am sure was our instructor's point, LOL)
 
newagebird
Topic Author
Posts: 63
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:08 pm

Hey
i need them to be accurate. My lecturers a respected figure in the aviation industry so i wouldnt want to be putting in crap for him.
Thanks
newagebird
 
bullpitt
Posts: 757
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:14 pm

Hi you should check out the Helios Accident, If I remember correctly part of the problem originated in the fact that they pilot and his second did not fully understand each other as they only had english as a common language.
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BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:36 pm

I think this is a question for the pilots on PPRUNE.

Best examples are european, where local pilots communicated with ATC in local language, which cannot be understood by non national pilots. (Paris is good example - think the process may have stopped)
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
citationjet
Posts: 2544
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:55 pm

One I have heard of is based on the phrase "Takeoff Power". There are two connotations of this in English.
Takeoff (maximum thrust for take off) power
Take off (to remove) power

Depending on how one interprets the intention, the meanings can be exactly the opposite.
When aircraft manufacturers write flight manuals, they look for phrases that can be misinterpreted.
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Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Nwajetset (Reply 1):
The FA runs up to inform the cockpit. She calls on the interphone, relays the info, and the captain, preparing to shut down the affected engine asks which engine. She hastily replies "The left one".

An example of this the British Midlands Kegworth Air Disaster, on a B737. It is usually highlighted in CRM training, since the captain announced over the PA that the No. 2 engine had problems and needed to be shut down...when in the cabin, the pax and the cabin crew saw it was the no. 1 engine but no one said anything. If someone did, the crash may have been averted.

Accident Report: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/formal_reports/no_4_90_502831.cfm

More examples include:

ASA Flight 529, which had an in-flight engine failure. The accident report notes,


"However, the Safety Board is concerned that the
flight attendant neither received nor sought information about the time remaining to prepare the cabin or to brace for impact. The CVR transcript revealed that theflightcrew informed her 7 minutes before impact that they had experienced anengine failure, that they had declared an emergency for return to ATL, and that they had advised her to brief the passengers. There were no further communications to the flight attendant. Specifically, the flight attendant was never told that the airplane would not be able to make ATL, and would instead be making an off-airport crash landing. The flight attendant stated that while preparing the cabin and passengers, she saw the tree tops from a cabin window. She immediately returned to her jump seat and shouted her commands. A passenger commented that the flight attendant was barely in the brace position when the impact occured."

and again references the need for CRM.

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1996/aar9606.pdf

Finally, a Pakistan International Airlines flight, a B777, had a brake fire after landing. Although the evacuation order was given, it took a long time to evacuate the aircraft. The UK AAIB reported that this appears to have been a problem communicating between the flight deck and cabin crew the seriousness of the situation.

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/AP-BGL%201-06.pdf

Hope that helps!
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
nwajetset
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:35 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting Newagebird (Reply 2):
i wouldnt want to be putting in crap for him.

Sorry, didn't mean to give you crap, just trying to help. Also see www.airdisaster.com. Lots of info about every crash you can think of.
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:59 am

I remember one story about a communication between the tower and an airplane. The tower asked them some question with "or" like "Are you ready or do you need more time?"
Pilot: "Yes."
Tower: "Yes, what?"
Pilot: "Yes, Sir."
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:20 am

Off-topic, but I always thought this video clip was very amusing about communication problems...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6077326441742307086
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redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Newagebird (Thread starter):
Was wondering if anyone had any examples of mix ups with their flight crew member. All stories welcome! It can be based on culture, language or just plain jargon mix ups.

I seem to recall the AV 707 that ran out of fuel while on approach to JFK resulted from a communication barrier (among other things). Specifically, the crew thought they were informing ATC of the urgency of their fuel situation when in fact ATC thought they were communicating that they were merely low on fuel, not that it was an emergency.

Also, there was the UA DC-8 that went down in PDX (?) in 1978. Faulty landing gear indicator led the pilot to fly the plane too long after dumping fuel in preparation for the emergency landing resulting in fuel starvation. I seem to recall the F.E. simply didn't communicate well enough the fact that they were low on fuel. I think when he called out pounds of fuel remaining he assumed the pilot knew they only had a few minutes of endurance left, when in fact the pilot was overly concerned with preparing the crew for the emergency landing and didn't make the connection.

I tried to find a link to both of these on the NTSB site but I keep getting a time-out when I do a search. Perhaps someone else can corroborate these.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:33 am

Avianca Flight 52

"The crew was reported to have asked for "priority" landing which, due to language differences in English and Spanish, can be interpreted as an emergency to the Spanish speaking pilots but not to the English speaking Air Traffic Controllers. This may have caused some confusion amongst the pilots when the ATC confirmed their priority status." (Wikipedia)

NTSB Report http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR91-04.pdf



UA Flight 173

"As a result of this accident United Airlines instituted the industry's first Crew (or Cockpit) Resource Management (CRM) program, which proved to be so successful that it is now used throughout the world." (Wikipedia)

NTSB Report http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR79-07.pdf
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 11):

Thanks, MarkHKG!
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:54 am

Glad to help. I just hope Newagebird gets an "A".  Smile
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
PacificFlyer
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:30 am

RE: Lost In Translation

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:01 am

The Pan Am and KLM accident in Tenerife. You should research that.

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