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SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:30 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 49):
it would be largely symbolic and wouldn't make a meaningful difference in the bottom line - there are simply far more pilots than there are managers, and they're making far more in salary than management is.

Quite rightly so, however every cent counts, if you listen to all the rants against the pilots. Maybe a symbolic gesture from management's side is necessary to put management’s money where their mouths are. I would say tit for tat….


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
TPAnx
Posts: 1007
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:53 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:54 pm

I. too, have no dog in this fight..just a selfish interest in getting the dispute resolved, since I'm booked on DAL for a long awaited vacation in late May.
But as far as I know, there's nothing keeping INDIVIDUAL DAL pilots on the job. If proposed pay cuts are too much, resign, and find another job. People in other industries do it every day. I'm a little taken aback by the seeming desire of some to destroy the airline, and the lives of 60-thousand other employees because of the dispute.  Yeah sure
(Puts on asbestos suit and tinfoil hat, and prepares for responses)
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 33):
Even a cursory read of UA's history shows that it was an abyssmal failure. No lenders will ever put employees in charge of an airline again.

Thanks for the history lesson.

Quoting Skaggs (Reply 39):
They can turn it around, it will suck beyond words, but it is temporary. Liquidation is permanent

Well put. And liquidation will be the most painful for pilots of all the employee groups.

Quoting TPAnx (Reply 51):
I. too, have no dog in this fight..just a selfish interest in getting the dispute resolved, since I'm booked on DAL for a long awaited vacation in late May.

My holdings in non-Delta stocks will see an appreciation if DL were to go under but I am hoping that the dispute is resolved.
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:36 am

TPAnx,

Hehe I don't have my flamethrower with me, but you seem to already know the answer that's coming: seniority! For most every other job, it's relatively easy to switch jobs and not go down in pay, maybe even get better pay. For pilots, you'll start at the bottom, every single time. That's why pilots are the MOST LOYAL employee group by far. And of course every airline has their veteran maintenance guys, flight attendants and office personnel, who should all be commended for their loyalty too, but the pilots as a group are certainly the most likely to spend their careers with the same airline.

Consequently, it's the pilots that have most at stake. The bean counters can run off to a different company and immediately make big bucks there. The engineers can do it too. Most young flight attendants fly only for a few years to see the world and get some life experience, so they'll likely be off to other jobs entirely. The fuelers and baggage loaders are not highly trained specifically for one job, in that they have to keep doing that job for the rest of their lives. No disrespect to any employee group whatsoever (Southwest shows clearly that every group contributes to the final outcome!), but some perspective on how pilots sit within a company.

During a conflict like this, you can be SURE that management will exaggerate the predicament they're in, even if it's really bad to begin with. That's just tactics. The same way that preparing for a strike is a tactic to begin with.

What's really interesting is that the pilot group is the group that other employee groups always look to when paycuts are involved. Lesser organized employee groups usually "undergo" paycuts and then look to the pilots to see if they bend over and take it just as easily -- they don't! Over here, the flight attendants' union is much weaker in negotiations than the pilots' union. And the managements of airlines over here consequently try to make the pilots feel guilty that they're not taking the same deal as the flight attendants (also using propaganda to the rest of the employees to portray the pilots as spoiled, rich bastards).

Fundamentally, it's management that has to step up with a clear-cut goal for the future, a vision for the company. Simply cutting costs while keeping revenue the same is not a vision. That's just poor management. Launching Song and then killing it a short while later, that just shows lack of backbone and vision.

Another thing that Southwest excels in: Clear-cut goals and a vision for the future. A clear company strategy by inspired leaders and a motivated employee group.

A motivated employee group can easily boost revenues up to well over 50%. Think about that: Having happy customer service reps, flight attendants, gate agents and, yes, pilots, will keep customers coming back and actually recruiting new customers for you in their enthusiasm. For the exact same pay!

P*ssing the employees off by demanding a, say, 20% pay cut, will not increase your profit margin by that much. You will even see a decline in revenue because your personnel is grumpy and customers will leave. It's not that hard to understand, except for many companies' management folks.

End of rant.



Grbld
 
flight7e7
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:26 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:37 am

Lest we forget the residual damage this threat is wreaking right now.
I had a great cnx PHL/ATL (DL) SEL (KE) ATL/PHL (DL)...and sold off of that onto FL for the PHL/ATL/PHL portion. Getting into the middle of this melee is the last thing I want to do, and I am sure, many business travelers at this junction are being a bit more wary of the potential disruptions to air travel if they do strike and DL shuts down-and not being able to get to your destinations-especially overseas.

Another consideration is Europe-DL has a lot of lift from JFK/CVG and ATL to Europe-flights on all carriers are at saturation points now-consider the John and Jane Q Public who are on DL to Europe for a once in a lifetime vacation, cruise, etc. and again, not to mention the havoc created for business travelers depending on DL. This is only the tip of the proverbial economic iceberg.

One can only give so much before the dedication and service excellence any highly skilled professionsals provide the company becomes nothing more than a disposable boardroom commodity. Deincentivization is not good for anyone, on any side of the table.

Sadly enough, if history does repeat itself and rears it's formidable head-we will see DL go the way of PA, EA, TW and BN. Time and again, I for one never believed that the yeomen and founders of this industry in the US such as these carriers would die the slow and agonizing deaths they died-virtually destroying lives and economies in closing their business for good. Looking back both callous mismanagement and overt greed canibilzed each of them. It is as simple as that.

Even from a capacity standpoint, we cannot afford to loose DL. The fallout will ultimately be another ruinous blow to an already burdened and financially unstable industry-and no carrier or collective group of carriers by today's standards can well afford to absorb the face value of the billions of dollars of ticket for future travel sold by Delta that remains to be lifted. The long reaching affect this would have on our US airline industry would be a contiguous death blow for some of our weaker carries, eg NW.

Think as well of the dominoe effect it would have on ground service providers, airports and local economies that have a large DL presence.

It's time to take the boxing gloves off and come to a sensible and manageable resolve. It will be yet another sad chapter in the history book of US commercial aviation- to see DL fly into the sunset.

An old proverb-author unknown:

Stupidty is a virtue-they have made it a bloody science.

Cheers!

 white   worried 
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting TPAnx (Reply 51):
But as far as I know, there's nothing keeping INDIVIDUAL DAL pilots on the job. If proposed pay cuts are too much, resign, and find another job.

Thanks to pilot unions and seniority, it's not that easy to switch.
 
VEEREF
Posts: 560
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:55 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting TPAnx (Reply 51):
But as far as I know, there's nothing keeping INDIVIDUAL DAL pilots on the job. If proposed pay cuts are too much, resign, and find another job.

But in this case that's 94% of individual pilots. If 94% of them decided to go find other jobs, then the outcome would be no different. You can't train 5k replacements in time to keep the airline running.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
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RE: A Personal Note To All DL Piots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 21):
The first people to get employment elsewhere will be management probably at salary levels double what they are making now. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about the asinine part, but that's par for the course in corporate America.

Well put DL757md, I heard somewhere Michele Burns (Leo's CFO) is working at an brokerage company, and raking in 6-7 figures. In the same paragraph, she was quoted as saying if she loses her lifetime first-class free benefits, she'll sue DL.  bangshead  Anyone have a rifle?
 
Oroka
Posts: 1138
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RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:31 am

Survival of the fittest. It is going to happen eventually, one major US airline will have to go under, be it NW or DL or both. There is too much capacity, so no one can really make a profit.

No one wants to see that many people loose thier jobs, but it is going to happen somewhere.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Piots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Grbld (Reply 53):
For pilots, you'll start at the bottom, every single time.

Hate to break it to you dude, but just about every other work-group at an airline has the seniority system in place. I'd have left a while ago with my 15 years experience if I could be compensated for it. But no, I would start out at the bottom, no different than a new AMT fresh out of A&P school in regards to pay and benefits but you can damn well be sure I'd be expected to produce like a 15 year AMT.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 53):
That's why pilots are the MOST LOYAL employee group by far.

Really! If you think the seniority system makes pilots loyal then you obviously don't know the definition of the word. I think that no matter how you spin it any employee group who threatens to shutdown their company, management included, cannot be considered loyal.

You say the seniority system makes them loyal? B.S.! The seniority system makes them prisoners. It's however, by their own choice. You see, it's the unions who demand a seniority system, not management. In fact, the rest of the Delta (TechOps and ACS, I'm not sure about the rest) is in the initial stages of being switched over to a performance based system instead of the seniority based system for many aspects of our compensation. This system, while I acknowledge will not and cannot be perfect, should do much more to foster genuine loyalty.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
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RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 57):
I heard somewhere Michele Burns (Leo's CFO) is working at an brokerage company, and raking in 6-7 figures. In the same paragraph, she was quoted as saying if she loses her lifetime first-class free benefits, she'll sue DL. Anyone have a rifle?

She is the textbook example of the point I was trying to make. She went to a bankrupt company in ATL. I forget which one and I don't feel like wasting my time looking up info on the pathetic whore. Anyway she was at it for about 18 months, saw it through BK(I doubt she did anything any other CFO couldn't have ethically done) and leaves with another golden parchute valued at more like 8 figures.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
surfdog75
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
DL wants bigger RJs so it can offer a higher quality RJ product and as a replacement for the 737 classics which will soon be gone.

This goes to the heart of the argument for me. Why not replace an inefficient Delta 100 seat aircraft with....of all things...a new efficient Delta 100 seat aircraft? I'll go even further and say a family of mainline aircraft from 70-110 seats? These airplanes would be crewed, supported, and maintained by loyal, motivated Delta employees who have a stake in a successful company as opposed to a bunch of contract carrier employees who probably don't care much about Delta.

Management has insisted on moving mainline flying to the lowest bidder because they say we can't afford to fly them on mainline. I say we can't afford not to. Our costs have come down dramatically and a deal can be worked to save this flying and the many jobs that depend on it. If Delta wants to build a consistent, outstanding product for our customers this flying needs to be done in house. Delta has very little quality control over the contract companies and many cancel flights at the drop of a hat, lead the world in mishandled bags etc.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 53):
A motivated employee group can easily boost revenues up to well over 50%. Think about that: Having happy customer service reps, flight attendants, gate agents and, yes, pilots, will keep customers coming back and actually recruiting new customers for you in their enthusiasm. For the exact same pay!


I agree with you 100 percent. Management can't see past the bottom line but those on the front line know the real story. Delta has a chance to rebuild the best airline company around. A great start would be to say to the employees, " You are the best in the business and we want you flying Delta customers."

[Edited 2006-04-09 20:24:07]

[Edited 2006-04-09 20:25:54]
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3802
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:01 am

A note to all...

Flew MIA-ATL-LGA this morning, and getting on the aircraft, knowing those two flights may be my last Delta flights ever was very sad. Very very sad.

Through all of this, I was greeted by the nicest bunch of F/As, especially on the MIA-ATL leg, who truly displayed the only thing they care about was the passengers.

The pilots were great as always as well.

Whatever the outcome is this week or next, I wish you all the best. Time and time again, when you truly work together, you are untouchable. Today was living proof the Spirt of Delta still exits.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 34):
I think the proper statement is that Delta isn't Southwest's peer, quite frankly. Southwest is a well managed airline that is making money and growing. Delta is trying to grow, but isn't well managed nor is it making money.

I will remind you that Delta was a very profitable airline long before Southwest ever flew its 1st flight. DL hasn't done nearly as well during deregulation but I firmly believe DL has finally figured out what it takes to make it in the deregulated environment and will return to industry leadership. Those Delta employees that stick it out will be nicely rewarded for holding on through this difficult chapter. Most of the rest of the industry will be blown away with what DL will do. Long time DL employees knew DL when they were the most respect airline and they are more than willing to help return their employer to that position.

Take a look at the latest issue of Air Transport World. There is a good article about Air Canada. They are the classic example of an airline that used bankruptcy right and is now running on all eight cylinders. You can bet DL has studied AC's restructuring just as it did UA and US' and others before and will copy and improve on everything that makes sense.

Quoting Grbld (Reply 53):
Fundamentally, it's management that has to step up with a clear-cut goal for the future, a vision for the company. Simply cutting costs while keeping revenue the same is not a vision. That's just poor management. Launching Song and then killing it a short while later, that just shows lack of backbone and vision.

Delta has articulated a more coherent turnaround strategy than that of any airline in the world. Delta has maintained its domestic network but is redeploying nearly 30 767s from domestic to international service, opening cities that have never been served by US carriers most of which will be profitable longterm additions to its network although there will certainly be some that do not work. Given the size and wealth of the USA, it is an indictment of the rest of the industry that they have beat each other over the head trying to all serve a dozen cities in Asia and western Europe and a couple in S. America while leaving huge chunks of the world unserved. In the meantime, DL is taking Eastern Europe by storm and is poised to add significant new routes to Africa and perhaps even the S. Pacific. Look at the route systems of BA, AF, and LH. There is no reason a US airline should not serve many of the very same cities while maintaining a strong profitable network at home. DL absolutely has a vision and they are executing against it very well.

Pulling the plug on Song may seem shortlived but I believe it shows how willing current DL management is to admit what was done wrong in the past and correct it. Current management did not create Song and they will not continue to support it if can't make money. CO and AA, the two best run airlines for at least a decade, have both said airlines within airlines don't make money. I tend to think they are right. It would be more of a mistake to be unwilling to admit Song's failure.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 61):
This goes to the heart of the argument for me. Why not replace an inefficient Delta 100 seat aircraft with....of all things...a new efficient Delta 100 seat aircraft? I'll go even further and say a family of mainline aircraft from 70-110 seats? These airplanes would be crewed, supported, and maintained by loyal, motivated Delta employees who have a stake in a successful company as opposed to a bunch of contract carrier employees who probably don't care much about Delta.

Management has insisted on moving mainline flying to the lowest bidder because they say we can't afford to fly them on mainline. I say we can't afford not to. Our costs have come down dramatically and a deal can be worked to save this flying and the many jobs that depend on it. If Delta wants to build a consistent, outstanding product for our customers this flying needs to be done in house. Delta has very little quality control over the contract companies and many cancel flights at the drop of a hat, lead the world in mishandled bags etc.

I agree that I would certainly like to see DL add new generation aircraft at the bottom end of its fleet. However, the EMB 170/190 is the only real alternative and I'm not sure that it is the best thing for a company to take the first product in a new product cycle. I personally do not buy the 1st release of technology but wait for it to be proven and revised as it often is. I am sure that other manufacturers will come up w/ new 100 seat airplanes that will be as good if not better than EMB's. And even if DL goes w/ EMBs they will know that is the best product available and they are getting it for the best price. Since they are the only product in their class now, there is no basis for comparison.

Also, DL has said they will order airplanes shortly after getting out of BK; they intend to structure their plan of reorg around those acquisitions. DL surely knows they cannot support their international operation almost entirely on 767s so you will see them order ultralonghaul aircraft, as well as the potential 100 seater mentioned above. In the meantime, there are still routes that will be below the size of a DL 100 seater and it only makes sense to continue to develop the product line even with contract carriers. DL is not proposing raising the size of a/c connection carriers can operate above 79 seats - enough to allow probably the CRJ 705 which will provide more onboard space but is not substantially larger or longer range than the aircraft DL connection carriers presently operate.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 62):
Today was living proof the Spirt of Delta still exits.

I have watched DL for years and know that the Spirit you encountered is what will keep DL alive. Even some of the toughest pilots know what they have and will think long and hard before throwing it all away. And, as I have pointed out, national ALPA is working w/ DALPA to make sure they realize that the deal DL is proposing is really pretty good compared with what UA, US, and NW pilots will make.
 
TPAnx
Posts: 1007
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:53 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Swaluvfa (Reply 41):
Well, as I sit in my 8 day-old 737 waiting to takeoff in ATL, I look at the old MD-80, and the older 737-200.. I know that at 6 year pay I make more then both of those Capatins at 12 year pay, yet I once again sit in silent support.. This time I hope that you will not kill the once great name of Delta..
Proud Captain,
AirTran Airways

An Air Tran FA (see profile) is making more than a Delta pilot ?  Yeah sure Methinks the Delta pilots may have a legitimate grief...
TPAnx
I read the news today..oh boy
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 46):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
A Delta 777 captain is currently making less than a Southwest captain flying a 737.

I've had enough of this silly rhetoric.

Compare the block hour operating cost (crew only) of the four US majors that fly the 777 before Delta began pay reductions with its pilots:

$1,537 - Delta
$1,199 - American
$1,055 - Continental
$1,055 - United

According to www.airlinepilotcentral.com, a Southwest 737 pilot makes 190 per hour. A Delta 777 pilot makes 186 per hour, and a Delta 737 pilot makes 149 per hour.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 63):
I will remind you that Delta was a very profitable airline long before Southwest ever flew its 1st flight. DL hasn't done nearly as well during deregulation but I firmly believe DL has finally figured out what it takes to make it in the deregulated environment and will return to industry leadership

What Delta WAS doesn't matter. What Delta IS and WILL BE is what's relevant. And right now, LCC's like WN and B6 are making money by offering a product the public wants. And they are making money doing so.

Mind you, I'm not a WN fan. If I wanted to ride the bus, I'd take Greyhound.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 63):
Take a look at the latest issue of Air Transport World. There is a good article about Air Canada. They are the classic example of an airline that used bankruptcy right and is now running on all eight cylinders. You can bet DL has studied AC's restructuring just as it did UA and US' and others before and will copy and improve on everything that makes sense.

I agree that we shouldn't give up on legacy carriers. I prefer flying them. But why is it that of all the carriers that have gone through bankruptcy, only Delta seems to be having labor problems?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
bucky707
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:27 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 63):
In the meantime, there are still routes that will be below the size of a DL 100 seater and it only makes sense to continue to develop the product line even with contract carriers.

There are no routes which could not be served with a combination of 70 and 100 seat aircraft. There is not such thing as a route which is perfect for a 70, 79, or 100 seat aircraft. All routes represent a compromise in aircraft size. Lets say route X averages about 400 seats a day. You could serve it with 4 100 seaters, 5 79 seaters, 5 70 seaters plus one 50 seater, or with 8 50 seaters. Or you could do it with two 100 seaters and three 70 seaters. There is no economic argument for a 79 seat aircraft.

Given that demand is rarely constand throughout the day, it would be hard to prove you needed to serve this market with 79 seaters throughout the day.

There is no economic justification for a 79 seat aircraft when you can have 70 seats on the low end and 100 seats next on the scale. It is simply an attempt to move the line for the next negotiation.
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 59):
Hate to break it to you dude, but just about every other work-group at an airline has the seniority system in place.

Hi Dl757md, my bad, didn't know you guys had a seniority system as well.

Regarding what you say about loyalty, you're right of course. It's not really loyal by choice, but loyal by situation. Pilot's are more or less "stuck" at their airline. This, though, has the effect that they almost always have long-term success for their airline as their goal. So, for people thinking that they only think short-term, they couldn't be more off the mark.

In the end, if your employer is trying to screw you over, there's not much you can do beside threatening with a strike. It remains a bluff, and sometimes the company's management will call your bluff.

That's the disadvantage you have as an employee. The employer has what you want, namely cash. And because the employee is the asking party, they're always at an inherent disadvantage. If your employer isn't a reliable partner, then striking is your only leverage.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Swaluvfa (Reply 41):
Just a personal note about Karma: 10 years ago Delta, and DALPA did everything in their power to shutdown a then small airline called ValuJet.

Your kidding right? You must be. Delta ignored Valujet for all it was worth. There was no real need to pay attention. You guys were shooting yourselves in the foot, why need help? Let's see, one of the first Valujet flights roll off the end of the runway in ATL and burns right up. Your failure to ensure proper contractor policies sends an airplane into the Everglades, killing 110. Worst of all, it was right in the middle of the Olympics, the worst time to have it. You were voluntarily shut down for a few months. Come on, why try to kill a little airline killing itself while your making record profits? But, that was Delta's mistake. They should have taken the initiative in 93 and squashed VJ easily if they wanted. Most startups kill themselves. Had it not been for the quiet Airtran Airways merger, most people would still not know they are flying a Valujet plane.

Quoting Swaluvfa (Reply 41):
Well, as I sit in my 8 day-old 737 waiting to takeoff in ATL, I look at the old MD-80, and the older 737-200.. I know that at 6 year pay I make more then both of those Capatins at 12 year pay, yet I once again sit in silent support.. This time I hope that you will not kill the once great name of Delta..

Yea, people used to also look at that poor airline flying those DC-9's held together with duct tape and be glad they were in brand new 737-800's on Delta, rather than those rough looking Nines and even rougher looking(and motley painted) 737-200's for Airtran. So a 6yr FA pay for FL is more than a 12 yr Captain pay at DL? For what aircraft, may I ask. I need some justification because thats really hard to believe.


Oh wait, its an FA referring to himself as a Captain? Boy, seems he doesn't know who wears the pants on that airplane. Oh, nevermind then. Can't ask justification from such a confused individual. An individual who can try to sleep at night knowing that there is no longer any FL route that does not, and will not, have DL competition anymore.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:12 am

I don't believe Delta's management. I think that the airlines problems today are bad but not as bad as claimed. They are using these hard times and favorable (republican) government control to bring organized labor to its knees ... Just like United did ... I hope the pilots strike, but I doubt they will ...and management knows that too.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5839
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RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:13 am

The Bad News is:

My uncle went to the Masters this weekend, thurs-sat, and jumpseated on a DL n/s from AUS-ATL. He spoke with two different flight crews about the future of DL. Based on all the information both crews gave him on the flights, there is a 50/50 chance DL is gonna liquidate.  Sad

The Good News is

He brought me back a Masters ball cap!  Smile

 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 70):
The Good News is

He brought me back a Masters ball cap!

Nice ballcap... You sporting that when we travel to Europe next month? T-minus... 33days man and where heading to DUB!
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 37):
Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):
It is apparent to me that our pilots just don't get it. 94% in favor of a strike.

Sounds like he's just a frusterated DL manager......
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 65):
I agree that we shouldn't give up on legacy carriers. I prefer flying them. But why is it that of all the carriers that have gone through bankruptcy, only Delta seems to be having labor problems?

Not quite true, I don't think. NW has had tremendous labor issues, which to this point have all managed to resolve (although I think some might debate how resolved they were). As for UA and US, haven't there been rumblings previous? Perhaps they - like NW - have them resolved now, but didn't they have to go through some arduous negotiations with some of their various labor groups? Certainly I recall US problems with its f/a's in previous years ...

You know, I find the entire situation crazy and I'm not certain who I believe and which side to support. Looking at it from the pilot side, current management is completely lousy and overpaid and entirely to blame and asking far to much for a situation that doesn't need it. Looking at it from the management side, the pilots are not understanding the situation and are being greedy themselves and not willing to help the airline which needs this of them and they're being paid more than the current management.  hypnotized  And of course, all of that's a radical oversimplication ... but it's essentially what I'm seeing of the arguments as characterized by the various adherents here on A-Net.

Perhaps it's best to simply say I hope the problems get solved and DL stays with us for the long-haul ...
TANSTAAFL!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:03 am

And let's not forget how bad it was at UA, US, and AA. If people here don't even remember some of the major airline labor showdowns of the past 10 years, do you legitimately think the public will? In another week (plus or minus a day), this will all be old news and DL will be back on track with its reorganization plan - including 79 seats and 767s to any conceivable airport with 10,000 feet of concrete.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 73):
Not quite true, I don't think. NW has had tremendous labor issues, which to this point have all managed to resolve (although I think some might debate how resolved they were). As for UA and US, haven't there been rumblings previous?

Did UA pilots ever get this close to walking out? Are NW's pilots as close as DL's seem to be?

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 73):
Perhaps it's best to simply say I hope the problems get solved and DL stays with us for the long-haul ...

Agree 100%.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 74):
And let's not forget how bad it was at UA, US, and AA. If people here don't even remember some of the major airline labor showdowns of the past 10 years, do you legitimately think the public will?

I'll ask the question again. Did UA and US pilots vote to strike during their time in bankruptcy? UA's mechanics voted to strike during their bankruptcy proceedings, but I don't remember hearing about the pilots threatening a strike.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1391
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting Flight7E7 (Reply 54):
Even from a capacity standpoint, we cannot afford to loose DL. The fallout will ultimately be another ruinous blow to an already burdened and financially unstable industry-and no carrier or collective group of carriers by today's standards can well afford to absorb the face value of the billions of dollars of ticket for future travel sold by Delta that remains to be lifted. The long reaching affect this would have on our US airline industry would be a contiguous death blow for some of our weaker carries, eg NW.

Think as well of the dominoe effect it would have on ground service providers, airports and local economies that have a large DL presence.

Even if all you say is true, then so be it. The disruptive effects you speak of are short-term. In the long term, the industry can only be helped if its weakest players are allowed to die -- even if their death is hastened by a domino effect.

If the capacity is driven by demand, then a short supply will only be temporary. The new airlines that rise from the ashes of DL and NW will probably be healthier entities simply because they can structure themselves without the baggage of the past. There would certainly be a glut of aircraft, even if they aren't the most desirable around! And a glut of CSA's, rampers, mechanics, and ahem, pilots. In Delta's case, there may even be a reasonably robust technology infrastructure just waiting for the highest bidder.

I personally believe that troublesome events like the death of a carrier or the exposure of fraud (e.g. -- Enron) are good for our capitalistic soul. If nobody ever failed, could there ever truly be risk/reward? If nobody ever got caught cheating, could there ever truly be the rule of law?

As a resident of Columbus, where DL is the biggest carrier, I too hope that DL rights the ship. But if they fail, I can think of far worse things.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 31):
possible for Delta pilots to gain control of the company and run it in exchange for wage concessions? Will the other unions join/support such a move?

If I am not mistaken aren't the Pilots the only unionized group at Delta. I know MX isn't unionized but I don't know about the FA's?
 
NADC10Fan
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:15 pm

Point of order, Counselor!  wink 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 75):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 73):
Not quite true, I don't think. NW has had tremendous labor issues, which to this point have all managed to resolve (although I think some might debate how resolved they were). As for UA and US, haven't there been rumblings previous?

Did UA pilots ever get this close to walking out? Are NW's pilots as close as DL's seem to be?

Not to the best of my knowledge ... although I believe NW's pilots are a problem point. But then, pilots aren't the only potential source of labor strife. NW certainly had issues with their MX, remember ... I walked through those picket lines in Indy a year ago.

Besides, I wasn't aware from the original posting that we were only speaking of the pilots:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 65):
I agree that we shouldn't give up on legacy carriers. I prefer flying them. But why is it that of all the carriers that have gone through bankruptcy, only Delta seems to be having labor problems?

This just mentions "labor problems," hence my answer.  thumbsup 
TANSTAAFL!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 65):
a Southwest 737 pilot makes 190 per hour. A Delta 777 pilot makes 186 per hour,

Oh boohoo, SW pilots have more productive work rules and they're paid $4 more per hour (only after 12 years of work, of course). Oh the inhumanity of it all!
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 77):
If am not mistaken aren't the Pilots the only unionized group at Delta. I know MX isn't unionized but what about the F/A's?

You are correct, only the pilots are unionized as DALPA.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4603
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 60):
I forget which one and I don't feel like wasting my time looking up info on the pathetic whore. Anyway she was at it for about 18 months, saw it through BK(I doubt she did anything any other CFO couldn't have ethically done) and leaves with another golden parchute valued at more like 8 figures.

Like I said, anyone have a rifle?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 63):
I have watched DL for years and know that the Spirit you encountered is what will keep DL alive.

WorldTraveler I only pray you are right. Enough is enough already.
 
Grbld
Posts: 349
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:25 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:31 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 77):
If I am not mistaken aren't the Pilots the only unionized group at Delta. I know MX isn't unionized but I don't know about the FA's?

And good for them. There's nothing wrong with unions, except when management tries to screw the employees over, those who have no union cannot make a stand, which makes it seem as though they're willing to "accommodate" and the ones who are unionized are stubborn folks who want to ruin the company.

Coming back to Southwest: They have the highest union percentage of their workforce of all the major airlines in the US!

And to put the "94% vote in favor of strike" statement in perspective: OF COURSE! If 40% of the pilots vote in favor of striking, then management isn't going to take the pressure seriously. The THREAT of striking is the key here, and you can only have a credible threat if everybody backs it up. It doesn't actually mean that 94% are looking forward to going on strike.
 
bucky707
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 80):
You are correct, only the pilots are unionized as DALPA

dispatchers are union also.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 79):
Oh boohoo, SW pilots have more productive work rules and they're paid $4 more per hour (only after 12 years of work, of course). Oh the inhumanity of it all!

But Southwest pilots fly the 737, and their Delta colleagues flying the same plane make 40 an hour less. That seem fair?

Or are you one of those equal pay for everyone despite their contributions or ability zealots?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Just 15 months ago, the Delta pilots voluntarily gave back approximately 50 percent of the value of their contract, including a 32.5 percent pay cut.

This is the part I don't get.. If its so bad, then why aren't the really upset pilots out looking for work, instead of screwing everyone at the company? The grass apparently is greener on the other side of the hill, so go to the other side.

I work in IT. When I don't like how an employer is treating me, I start looking for a new job, then go onto a new job. I don't get mad and cost other people in the company their jobs, when they have nothing to do with the way my employer is treating me.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 84):
But Southwest pilots fly the 737, and their Delta colleagues flying the same plane make 40 an hour less. That seem fair?

Maybe not. But were you complaining about the fairness of it when Delta 737-800 captains topped out at...what was it?...$227/hr? I doubt it.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Goaliemn (Reply 85):
I work in IT. When I don't like how an employer is treating me, I start looking for a new job, then go onto a new job. I don't get mad and cost other people in the company their jobs, when they have nothing to do with the way my employer is treating me.

Have you not read any of the above posts? That's not the way it works! You simply cannot do that in the pilot profession. You're comparing apples to oranges.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
goaliemn
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:46 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 87):
Have you not read any of the above posts? That's not the way it works! You simply cannot do that in the pilot profession. You're comparing apples to oranges.

I've read how others feel that other airlines are getting better pay than them. They should go. Seniority is holding them at their current airline. I understand that, but some have made it sound like they could be making what they'd be making under the new terms in afew years at another airline. Would it be worthwhile to take a short term cut and wait for their higher wages as they move up the ranks? If they do strike and put the airline under, they are still going to start from zero at their new job.
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 635
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 75):
Did UA pilots ever get this close to walking out?

You must not remember what I euphemistically call the Summer of Love at UA? The summer of 2000 was the worst in the airline business; and I was smack dab dead center working at the UA Pilot Crew Desk.

UAs pilots werent liking the way that negotiations were going, so they decided to "work to rule", worked exactly to the letter of the contract - no less and not a millimeter more. Everytime I had to reassign a crew for anything; a sick call, enroute misconnect due to irregular operations, it took nearly an act of God (or being direct ordered by the FODM - Flight Ops Duty Manager) to get them to fly totally legal by the UAL/ALPA contract at the time. The stress level across the airline was higher than anything. Add on top of that, the stupid decision to merge UA and US Airways, right in the middle of the summer (May I think actually), and just made a very bad situation worse.

Deep in that summer, UA was cancelling something like 500 flights a day (out of just shy of 2500 scheduled per day) for lack of flight crews. Flight crews were calling in sick in droves.

I remember one day when I worked the Shuttle crew desk (which thankfully was very rare), that every captain that had a departure before 0700 called sick out of the SFO domicile. In the UAL/ALPA contract at the time, if a reserve pilot was starting a sequence of days on (ie, his first day), he could not be scheduled for departures before 0700. All of the reserves I had, you guessed it, were coming from days off, and not good for all of those 0600 departures. I ran about 4-5 lines of flight exactly 1 hour late, since our manager came out with an edict that we couldnt even ask if the reserve pilot could take the earlier departure. I found it hard to believe that 4-5 captains got sick, concurrently; for I took those 4-5 sick calls within about 2 hours of each other.

I remember one day when I was working the B747-400 desk (which handled all of the B747-400 domiciles), and I was trying to junior man for SFO first officers (since I had like 6 or 7 open trips, all SFO 400 F/O as extra F/Os), and while going thru the junior man list, and the response I was getting nearly 100% of the time was "I am not available for a junior man assignment" Junior manning is calling people in on their day off - at smaller airlines its usually mandatory - you answer the phone on your day off; youre going in to work; but at the UA contract interpretation, whether they flew it or not was at the crewmember's discretion.

I wish the crewmembers at DL the best. Whatever the pilots choose to do; just remember, there is a life outside of the airline industry; and to be honest, given the current state of affairs at nearly any US-based carrier, its a better life.

[Edited 2006-04-10 19:02:27]
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
congaboy
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 60):
She is the textbook example of the point I was trying to make. She went to a bankrupt company in ATL. I forget which one and I don't feel like wasting my time looking up info on the pathetic whore. Anyway she was at it for about 18 months, saw it through BK(I doubt she did anything any other CFO couldn't have ethically done) and leaves with another golden parchute valued at more like 8 figures.

Moral of the story: get an MBA instead of pilot's license.

Its simple...pilots should do what they do best...fly aircraft. Pilots are generally not trained and/or exposed to the business of managing/mis-managing a corporation, and neither are their union representatives. We have alot of crap being flung at past and present management...and when you have management you disagree with, you have two choices: 1/ tough it out until it changes, or 2/ get out. It's the same choice all the rest of us salaried slobs in corporate America have!
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
SBN580
Posts: 374
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:55 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Who do you think bottles Coca-Cola? It isn't the Coca-Cola Company. It is franchisees that are given the right to bottle and distribute the product under very strict control standards. There is nothing basically flawed in franchisee operations if they are done right.

Still, whether it is "done right," or not, you are not really flying on Delta. Not that I usually have a bad experience on one of the Delta Connection carriers, but I still wish it were Delta or that the liveries were truthfully reversed, "Shuttle America," or "Republic Airways," or what have you and something like, "A Delta Connection Service," in small lettering.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 61):
This goes to the heart of the argument for me. Why not replace an inefficient Delta 100 seat aircraft...These airplanes would be crewed, supported, and maintained by loyal, motivated Delta employees who have a stake in a successful company as opposed to a bunch of contract carrier employees who probably don't care much about Delta.

What a great idea that would be.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 62):
Through all of this, I was greeted by the nicest bunch of F/As, especially on the MIA-ATL leg, who truly displayed the only thing they care about was the passengers.

The pilots were great as always as well.

Great take! I had the same feeling on my flights in December. That is why I fly Delta.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 68):
Had it not been for the quiet Airtran Airways merger, most people would still not know they are flying a Valujet plane.

Once again Otto in the words of the late, great, Howard Cosell, "You my friend, are telling it - like - it - is!"
North Central: Good People Made Their Airline Great! FLY MD-90 POWER! Keep 'em Flying DELTA Family!
 
azstagecoach
Posts: 137
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Swaluvfa (Reply 41):
After reading this, I had to borrow a friend's account to make a post:

Come on, the captain is borrowing a friend's acct, which is why the acct is listed as a F/A-- it's not a F/A impersonating a captain!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:34 am

Thank you, Dispatch Guy, for the history lesson for those who somehow think the latest crisis is the only one the world has ever faced.

And, yes, other airlines’ employees have voted to authorize strikes in the post 9/11 period. And on that basis, DL’s pilots are no different than other labor groups. Yet not one of those groups has acted on its threat to walk off the job except for NW’s mechanics and we know what happened to them. DL’s situation cannot be considered worse than any other post 9/11 labor strife until a strike is actually called - which just won’t happen.

And as for the pay comparison, WN pilots may make more on comparable equipment but DL pilots have widebody aircraft to fly that net much higher salaries. And WN pilots can’t get on a plane and fly for 10 hours with an augmented crew which means an aweful lot of DL pilots get their work done pretty fast in comparison to WN pilots.

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