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peachair
Topic Author
Posts: 218
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:00 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:46 am

It is apparent to me that our pilots just don't get it. 94% in favor of a strike. Fine. How much worse off am I gonna be than the average pilot? Just think about it. If you take the AVERAGE DL pilot - I would be willing to bet, that 60-70% of our pilots are the sole providers of income for their families, including health insurance. If they strike - that is the end of our company. They don't believe it - but it is true. This is a gamble.

Do their familieis agree with them? Out on the street - having to start, now at the BOTTOM of ANY airlines' seniority list. DALPA what the HELL are you thinking. Are you willing to risk NO DUES from 5900 constituents? WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE. Please state it here. You are willing to disrupt, and for some people DESTROY 20-30 years of their lives, dedcated to the success of this company. YOU JUST DON"T GET IT. You are NOT going to make anywhere near what you would make - even AFTER your pay cut, starting with another carrier. STUPIDITY at it's highest level.

I don't have any sympathy for any of you. It is clear that you DONT CARE. It is clear that you do NOT see where this industry is headed, or what has led to where DL is at this moment. It is CRYSTAL CLEAR to every DL non-pilot emplyoyee that you don't recognize the dire straits that our industry, DL is in, and do not care the outcome. Of all people it is YOU DALPA - all of you who will start -AT THE BOTTOM again.

I am PRAYING that you and DL can come to an agreement by the end of the week - and let cooler heads prevail.

THANKS - I HOPE YOU COME TO AN AGREEMENT
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):
WHAT IS YOUR PURPOSE. Please state it here.

I think their main purpose is that they have already given management (albeit the previous bunch who are now gone) a good paycut. Just because management squandered it doesn't mean the pilots can be the eternal spring of concessions. At the end of the day I believe an agreement will be made. Not today mind you but you get the idea. It is in the best interest of both sides to hash out a deal. The funny thing will be which side blinks first and then who puts the better spin on it all about how they "won."
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
727LOVER
Posts: 8633
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:53 am

Why are you blaming JUST the pilots, and not management also?
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 2):
Why are you blaming JUST the pilots, and not management also?

Because the current management is not to blame. I'm sorry if that destroys one of the unions main mantras.

Bottomline is, the pilots will cave in at the last minute. It's a money grab, posturing, and threats. None of them actually have the balls to strike for real.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
DualQual
Posts: 752
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:20 am

Again, the pilots KNOW a strike will kill the airline. It is the THREAT of a strike that will hopefully force management to negotiate in good faith. At some point though, enough is enough. As was so well put in another thread, if the airline can't survive without paying it's employees peanuts then it's time to shut it down. People voice the complaint of "Why should I have to pay a higher ticket price to subsidize your salary?" Well, at some point the employees need to respond with "Why do I need to keep taking pay and benefit cuts to subsidize your $75 transcon ticket?" That shouldn't just be the pilots either. Everyone should be entitled to a fair wage. I don't think any of the pilots I know are asking for a raise, but the wage is already fairly well on par with what the other legacies are making (in terms of block hour pay). At some point concessions cease to be the answer.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
JBirdAV8r
Posts: 3468
Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 4:44 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting DualQual (Reply 4):
Again, the pilots KNOW a strike will kill the airline. It is the THREAT of a strike that will hopefully force management to negotiate in good faith.

Finally, someone gets it!  checkmark 
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:42 am




Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
Just because management squandered it doesn't mean the pilots can be the eternal spring of concessions.

Very well said, DeltaGator.





Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):
I don't have any sympathy for any of you. It is clear that you DONT CARE.

Here's something for you to think about, Peachair:

Just 15 months ago, the Delta pilots voluntarily gave back approximately 50 percent of the value of their contract, including a 32.5 percent pay cut.

Delta pilots have already proven that they are willing to make substantial sacrifices in the interest of the airline. One would think a significant act of good will would earn some degree of respect from management in the form of open negotiation.

Instead, management is choosing not to withdraw their motion to reject the pilot's contract, effectively refusing to even negotiate.

So there you have it:

- Management presents ludicrous demands on the pilot group

- The pilot group says "No way, those demands are ridiculous...but we're willing to talk",

- Management refuses to negotiate any further.

Regardless of what the media might have you believe, the pilots are making a stronger effort than management to reach an agreement.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
RobTrent
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:48 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:02 am

Dipping my toe in the water.

It sounds as if someone needs to bang some heads together at Delta's management or give them a reality check.

If DL goes under it would be a travesty.

Just my 2c

Regards
R
T7 - You know it makes sense !
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Regardless of what the media might have you believe, the pilots are making a stronger effort than management to reach an agreement.

By Moak screaming like a child during the hearings? By the union having a "practice strike" in ATL...all of this after the arbitration panel said to tone it down?

Riiiiight.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:12 am

The pilots agreed to over 1 billion dollars a year in concessions in order to help the company avoid bankruptcy. This amounted to about half of the value of the contract. Along with these concessions, both parties signed a bankruptcy protection letter spelling out a limit on further concessions should the company ultimately have to file. Now that they are in bankruptcy, the company denies that this letter applies. Do signed agreements only apply to employees and not management?

This issue is about much more than just pay. Scope is one of the biggest issues for me. The company wants the ability to farm out larger and larger aircraft to the lowest bidder. The employee groups have already been decimated by this outsourcing. If we give away this flying, Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa and the others will be jumping for joy while current Delta employees are shown the door. Keeping this flying at Delta will not only save jobs, it will give our customers a more consistent experience and a much better product.

When you are blaming the pilots, keep in mind that even if management gets a favorable ruling from the board, it is still up to them whether to rescind the pilot agreement or not. Rescinding the agreement is the only thing that would result in a job action.

[Edited 2006-04-08 21:29:31]
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Just 15 months ago, the Delta pilots voluntarily gave back approximately 50 percent of the value of their contract, including a 32.5 percent pay cut.

No they didn't. They gave under the threat of bankruptcy because chapter 11 would almost certainly result in the loss of their pension plans which has now occurred because the years the pilots spent delaying the turnaround plan left the company exposed when fuel prices spiked. They ultimately gave alot but they were the highest paid in the industry - and they still were until the current interim agreement. There is nothing spectacular about the size of their 2004 cut if it didn't bring them to competitive levels. And there is no reason that DL should pay more for their pilot services than DL should pay more for any other service it obtains - labor, aircraft, or fuel. DL's pilots are no better than American's (ok maybe a little bit) and DL's fuel is no better than what CO burns. DL pilots will not be overpaid nor will they be underpaid when all is said and done. Period.

And it is fine to blame management past or present for DL's problems but that is merely an attempt to deflect labor's responsibility to work with management. The reality is that DL had the most flawed network strategy AS A RESULT of the incursion of LFCs post 9/11. HOWEVER, that strategy was what made DL one of the most profitable airlines in the world and kept DL in a very comfortable and strategically advantageous position for decades. Because the strategy is not workable now doesn't mean it was flawed before. And while I would have liked to see DL management begin the transformation process a couple years earlier, they have a solid plan and are executing against it very well now.

And despite having a non-voting seat on DL's board for the past 10 years, the DL pilots never stood up and said the network strategy was flawed. Not once. So blaming management is not acceptable when that very strategy worked well for years, the pilots had the unique opportunity to voice their concerns with the strategy but didn't, and management is now enacting a turnaround plan that is exactly what is needed and is doing it better than expected.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:17 am




Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 9):
it will give our customers a more consistent experience

...And this is not to be undervalued. If the outsourcing continues to larger and larger equipment, the name "Delta" will stand for nothing more than varying service from varying airlines.

Brand identity is worth a heck of a lot more than many people realize...




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:27 am

Who do you think bottles Coca-Cola? It isn't the Coca-Cola Company. It is franchisees that are given the right to bottle and distribute the product under very strict control standards. There is nothing basically flawed in franchisee operations if they are done right.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:28 am

Before giving current management a free pass, look into who pushed out Ron Allen, hired Leo Mullin, and has been key board members through the downslide of Delta. Continental just announced they are hiring 4000 new employees. Sadly, the pilots may strike and put Delta to rest, but you can ask someone to take just so many paycuts. With the cuts management wants, Delta would have lost only 175 MILLION DOLLARS in FEBRUARY, 2006. What does that say about current management?

The pilots want the airline to succeed, but they feel that all they are doing is taking more cuts so that management can sell more and more seats below cost. Raising fares is what is needed, and then having the nerve and staying power to wait a few weeks and watch everyone else follow. No carrier, not even Southwest can make money with the current fare structure and the cost of fuel. Southwest's hedges are starting to run out too. The reasoning behind the decisions of most airline's management is flawed.

So don't just blame the pilots. By the way, I am not a pilot, or related to one, but if they strike, a member of my family will be out of a job. So it's not as if I want Delta to fail, but look at the facts. Everyone thinks OTHER PEOPLE should take pay cuts. But if every employee in this country were asked every six months to cut their pay by 25% or so, pretty soon, there would be a whole bunch of people on strike or out of a job.

Delta's other employee groups have NO POWER whatsoever to lean on the pilots to settle and that is because none of them are represented by a union that can put pressure on ALPA. Delta Management made sure the pilots would be the only employees on the property, in addition to about 50 dispatchers, with a CBA, and now they are reaping what they have sown.
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 9):
Scope is one of the biggest issues for me. The company wants the ability to farm out larger and larger aircraft to the lowest bidder. The employee groups have already been decimated by this outsourcing. If we give away this flying, Skywest, Chautauqua, Mesa and the others will be jumping for joy while current Delta employees are shown the door.

That is absolutely right!

Rather than have to replace the MD-80 fleet, DL's management wants to gradually park them in the desert and furlough the crews. Their regional partners can then take over the routes with E-175s and E-190s.

What irks me is why this management team has not been shown the door by DL's board!
 
deltagator
Posts: 6170
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:56 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Who do you think bottles Coca-Cola? It isn't the Coca-Cola Company.

Actually check out http://www.cokecce.com for the answer. Coca Cola Enterprises was created in 1986 by Coca Cola and is now the largest bottler of Coke at least in the US. While independent bottlers still exist a lot of them have been snatched up by CCE. Just a little tidbit for you.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
bucky707
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 8):
By Moak screaming like a child during the hearings? By the union having a "practice strike" in ATL...all of this after the arbitration panel said to tone it down?

Its interesting that people attack Moak on this forum. Just a few months ago when he replaced John Malone, people were singing his praise, saying how much more reasonable he would be and how it was much more likely the pilots would work with management.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:53 am

I'm fully aware of who CCE is. But it is not the parent company. It is an independent franchisee - a very successful one, though. Not a whole lot different that Skywest in relation to mother Delta.

As for the thought of parking the MD-80s, if DL doesn't reject the leases during bankruptcy, the planes will likely be in service through the mid 2010 decade. DL was able to significantly reduce leases on them during BK (they were actually one of the easiest planes to renegotiate lower leases) and the lease terms are far lower than anything else that can seat 140 passengers. And while they aren't fuel efficient by today's standards, Pratt and Whitney is willing to just about throw in labor for free because they do not have a standalone narrowbody engine on any current offerings so once the MD80 and 737 classic fleet is retired, P&W has to find a new revenue stream and they are not what they used to be in the widebody engine market either. The MD80s will be cheap transportation so there is little incentive to ground them. AA's situation is different because theirs are older and they have not been able to reject leases in bankruptcy.

DL is asking for the right to deploy 79 seaters w/ Connection carriers. There is no way DL can deploy 250 79 seaters as a replacement for the MD80 fleet. The airport and airspace infrastructure could not sustain it and DL's customers won't accept it. DL wants bigger RJs so it can offer a higher quality RJ product and as a replacement for the 737 classics which will soon be gone.

Miles,
I am aware that Jerry has lead DL's board for decades and he is not blameless in this mess. However, I think he has given DL's CEOs too much freedom rather than managing the business himself. In governance, DL is very typical of American corporations in that it is primarily run by the employee management and not the directors. I believe Jerry is motivated to get DL fixed because of his failure to reign things in sooner but he will step aside as soon as DL gets back on track - which could happen soon after a pilot deal is signed.

And nobody said the pilots are the only ones taking cuts. Unsecured creditors will take a 100% pay cut - they will lose it all. Lessors of the MD80s are taking a 75% pay cut because that is what the market says. DL's non contract employees have taken 2 10% paycuts and had benefit changes that are costing them an additional 15-20% in salary - in total well over 30% and they were not as overpaid relative to the market as pilots are.... and the non-contract employees have taken insurance cost hits year after year just the way every other company in America has. And DL's employees as a group are shouldering a much smaller percentage of the total turnaround plan than did either UA or US' employees.

ALPA knows DL's reorganization plan and they know what is coming from every other group.
 
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chrisnh
Posts: 4156
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 3:59 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:17 am

Years ago I would have come down hard against the pilots. On balance I am an anti-union guy; my very real (and true) perception is that unions only cared about how long their coffee breaks were than about making the company they worked for better. On the backs of that never-ending selfishness, wages soared. Over the past several years unions have taken it up the rear. No sympathy from me, because their salaries rolled back from an unsustainable pinacle. "Look at what we've given back!" they all cry. Yeah, but now you're where you SHOULD have been all along. You've just been brought back to reality, not roasted on a barbeque.

But in this case, I side with the pilots. They are NOT an eternal spring of give-backs (as someone else so nicely said). You can only go to the well so many times. And Delta has been so utterly mismanaged that the blame squarely goes with them. Launching and scuttling not one, but TWO LCCs? What idiocy! How much money was spent on Delta Express and Song to arrive at a point we all knew was coming anyway?

Pilots: stay the course. As much as I hate unions for being nothing but 'me-me-me,' this time I'm siding with the pilots. Yes, the carrier may go down...but at least you'll be taking all of your asinine management with you. The easy thing for people to say is, 'Oh! The world will just STOP rotating if Delta goes under!' Three words: No It Won't. The sun will come up tomorrow, my favorite show '24' will come on at 9pm Monday night, and all will be swell. Eastern and Pan Am and TWA and Braniff all disappeared and we all lived to tell about it.

Pilots: Go to the matt here and stay the course. The death of Delta is NOT the huge deal that insiders would like to think it is.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:21 am

Chris,
what part of 100% paycut for unsecured creditors and 75% haircut for MD80 lessors do you not get? DL pilots have come nowhere near the cuts that DL has obtained from other suppliers during the process. And DL never paid 125% above market rates for their airplanes or debt either.
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:48 am

The problem with DL is that the employees don't trust the management, the management does not trust the employees, and the employees don't trust eachother. The pilots definately have issues with the management, but I fear it could be to late before they can reach an agreement with the DL pilots.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
dl757md
Posts: 1483
Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 9:32 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):
DL's non contract employees have taken 2 10% paycuts and had benefit changes that are costing them an additional 15-20% in salary - in total well over 30% and they were not as overpaid relative to the market as pilots are.... and the non-contract employees have taken insurance cost hits year after year just the way every other company in America has

 yes 

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 18):
Yes, the carrier may go down...but at least you'll be taking all of your asinine management with you.

You're kidding right?

Every past member of DL management that is really responsible for the mess at DL, with the exception of Leo, has gone on to other companies, some within, some outside of the aviation industry. Leo had reached the pinnacle of his career so he retired although I think he still does consulting and I'm pretty sure he's on a few boards of directors. The first people to get employment elsewhere will be management probably at salary levels double what they are making now. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you about the asinine part, but that's par for the course in corporate America.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
georgiaame
Posts: 1025
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:09 am

I'm afraid that it's PeachAir who doesn't get it.

What is the purpose? Simple. It's to destroy Delta. (Or at least accelerate the destruction wrought by recent management).

You join a union, and let someone else do your critical thinking for you, this is the result. Their actions cause peripheral damage and 40,000 flight attendants, ground crew, meteorologists lose their jobs? Who the f* on DALPA's part cares? Not the union leaders, because it's not their problem.

No one wants to take a pay cut, ever. But with the worst paycuts proposed, and then some, the pilots still make a hell of a good living. And work only 14 days out of a month. Union officials know this.

As I love to say, Delta dies, I fly with someone else. Delta dies, it's going to be one very tight market for some 6,000 out of work pilots, a hell of a lot of whom are nearing the age of 60.

I hope cooler heads prevail. But once the mob mentality takes over reason, I would say that it isn't looking too good at the moment.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 759
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:22 am

The funny thing about all of this is that the Pilots have the most to loose by their actions. If they strike and Amex and GE pull their funds DL will liquidate, period, end of story.

Let us make the assumption that the pilots as individuals and as a group are rational actors. This assumption is inherently flawed as people tend to not act rationally and large groups even less so. In this case the strike talk is mainly about posturing incase the arbitrator determines that DL has the authority to cancel the pilots contract. Why do the pilots do this. The hope is that by convincing management that canceling the contract is the equivalent of using a dooms-day device management will not push the button. Of course at the same time the pilots are trying to convince the arbitration panel that the contract should not be terminated.

Let us play out the dooms-day scenario. DL is given permission to terminate the contract. DL management will then seek and injunction against the pilots, both the union and potential as individuals, to prevent them from striking. This is interesting, because it actually has the possibility of raising the stakes for the pilots. Regardless, let us assume that DL management terminates the pilots contract and the pilots strike. Amex and GE take their money and security collateral forcing DL into Ch 7. What is the consequence for the different parties involved.

1. Shareholders – Nothing, they have already lost the vast majority of their value
2. Unsecured creditors – Nothing, again the loss is to a large extent already existant
3. Secured creditors – Little to nothing, the debt is secured
4. Non-manangement, non-pilot DL employees – They loose their jobs, many will be able to find work. Some loss in lifetime earnings potential and NPV of there future carrier.
5. DL management – Virtually nothing, they can jump to another airline or industry and make a lot of money. Even if the FAA/DOT pulls a Lorenzo on them they will be OK. In fact because they will be involuntarily terminated they may actually get a severance package.
6. DL Pilots – LNPV of future carrier drops substantially, the ones that can find work end up at the bottom of the seniority list, many will ultimately make much less than they do today. For the most senior pilots there carrier NPV goes to $0, they are too close to age 60 to get hired on anywhere else. Further, if an injunction is granted the union leaders, and potentially individual pilots may be held in contempt. Additionally, it may be possible for creditors to seek damages from the pilots. This would lead to a negative NPV for the pilots. Oh, and the pension still goes away

OK, so how does the doomsday scenario look now. It seems to me that the pilots are counting on management seeing the potential loss; however, for management and the secured creditors there is almost no loss involved. This means that there is very little incentive to bow in to the pilots' demands.

Fair or not, if the arbitration panel decides to give DL the right to terminate the pilots' contract, the pilots have lost. The ball is then squarely in the pilots' court. They will have the sole power to determine if how much they loose. Currently they have charted a course to maximize their losses. The use of the strike option would, therefore, be a wholly irrational act, invalidating the assumption made at the beginning of this argument.

Pilots: Remember no matter how bad it looks if you don't, by striking you will place yourselves in the worst possible position, you will effectively loose everything. This still might happen if you don't; however, it will take several more months at the minimum greatly increasing the value of your carrier to you.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 3):

Because the current management is not to blame. I'm sorry if that destroys one of the unions main mantras.

Is that right? You know, the DL pilots aren't making drastically more than AA or CO pilots (perhaps even less) and their airlines work just fine. UA is coming back. I'm pretty sure the management made poor decisions. Management is in control of the Airline, and short of an act of God, failures of the airline often reflect failures of management.

Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 5):
Quoting DualQual (Reply 4):
Again, the pilots KNOW a strike will kill the airline. It is the THREAT of a strike that will hopefully force management to negotiate in good faith.

Finally, someone gets it! checkmark

Someone, but not everyone.....

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 22):
You join a union, and let someone else do your critical thinking for you, this is the result. Their actions cause peripheral damage and 40,000 flight attendants, ground crew, meteorologists lose their jobs? Who the f* on DALPA's part cares? Not the union leaders, because it's not their problem.

No one wants to take a pay cut, ever. But with the worst paycuts proposed, and then some, the pilots still make a hell of a good living. And work only 14 days out of a month. Union officials know this.

Do your critical thinking? Because the pilots don't think, they blindly follow the union right? you give so little credit and respect to the pilots themselves. The unions keep management from forcing an unfair deal on the pilots, flight attendents, maintanance crew, etc. Otherwise, whatever paycuts the management wanted to hand down, the pilots would just have to take. The union gives the pilots a fair say.

As for that hell of a good living after the paycuts... NW pilots have taken nearly 40% paycuts since 2000. One of their pilots just moved from the top of my street because he couldn't afford his mortgage anymore because his pay has been docked over and over (while NW's execs have given themselves millions in bonuses). You explain to his kids why they have to move away from their freinds and out of their house....

Tell me GeorgiaAme, how would you feel about having your pay cut in half?

The DL pilots have voluntarily taken more cuts than just about anyone else in the industry. They have been extremely loyal to the company and done more than their fair share. After all that, management trying to void their contract and force more paycuts again is just an insult.


I support the DL pilots 100%.

And the airline execs like to make the situation worse than it is. DL is in a hard situation. Their execs don't want the airline to go into the ground either. If the pilots went on strike, you know, and the pilots know, management would give in, almost right away.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:41 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 2):
Why are you blaming JUST the pilots, and not management also?

Because he's probably like many people on Anet who bash pilots because when it comes down to the basics, they are just plain jealous of their jobs and the money they make.

Quoting DualQual (Reply 4):
Well, at some point the employees need to respond with "Why do I need to keep taking pay and benefit cuts to subsidize your $75 transcon ticket?"

Couldn't agree more. Before 9/11, I paid on average 375-425 for a R/T ticket IAD to OAK. After 9/11, I was paying at one point 209 for the same R/T ticket. Good for me, bad for UA. Now the same ticket is back up to 310.

I'd rather pay 310 and have UA keep providing service than paying 209 and have them go out of business.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
And there is no reason that DL should pay more for their pilot services than DL should pay more for any other service it obtains - labor, aircraft, or fuel. DL's pilots are no better than American's (ok maybe a little bit) and DL's fuel is no better than what CO burns. DL pilots will not be overpaid nor will they be underpaid when all is said and done. Period.

A Delta 777 captain is currently making less than a Southwest captain flying a 737.

Want to reconsider your "DL pilots will not be underpaid" claim?

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 14):
What irks me is why this management team has not been shown the door by DL's board!

The lack of proper oversight by corporate BoD's is one of the long running scandals of current American business.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 18):
Years ago I would have come down hard against the pilots. On balance I am an anti-union guy; my very real (and true) perception is that unions only cared about how long their coffee breaks were than about making the company they worked for better. On the backs of that never-ending selfishness, wages soared. Over the past several years unions have taken it up the rear. No sympathy from me, because their salaries rolled back from an unsustainable pinacle. "Look at what we've given back!" they all cry. Yeah, but now you're where you SHOULD have been all along. You've just been brought back to reality, not roasted on a barbeque.

But in this case, I side with the pilots. They are NOT an eternal spring of give-backs (as someone else so nicely said). You can only go to the well so many times. And Delta has been so utterly mismanaged that the blame squarely goes with them. Launching and scuttling not one, but TWO LCCs? What idiocy! How much money was spent on Delta Express and Song to arrive at a point we all knew was coming anyway?

Agree with you on all counts. If I though management was being honest about Delta's financial position, I'd be on their side. While I remain firmly anti-union, in this case, I stand by the pilots.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:04 am




The following was forwarded to me. I highlighted the segment that relates to the topic at hand:




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------






So you want to be an airline pilot?




I walked into the interview with a great deal of confidence and enthusiasm. Flying airplanes was my one true passion in this life.

This was my big chance to merge my occupation with my love. I would become an airline pilot.

"So you want to be an airline pilot?" the interviewer inquired. "Yes, sir, more than anything else I have ever wanted," I replied, realizing I sounded like an anxious adolescent.

"Well, great, welcome aboard," the airline executive said.

"You mean I'm hired?!" I cheered.

"You bet, we're glad to have you. Actually, we've had trouble finding good pilots to hire," the exec explained. If I was surprised, it was overshadowed by my joy of reaching my dream.

"Let's just go over a few points before you sign on the dotted line, "the company man chortled. "We're going to send you to the world's most renowned medical center. They'll spend two days probing your body orifices, draining and analyzing your blood, and administering psychological exams. They'll literally take you apart and put you back together. If they find any hint of current or future problems, you're fired and can find your own ride home."

"Gee, I think my health is OK," I nervously choked out.

The manager went on, "Good, next we'll evaluate your flying skills in an aircraft you've never been in before."If we don't like the way you perform, you're fired."

I was confident with my flying, but this guy was making me nervous.

He continued, "Next, if you're still here, we'll run you through our training program. If during any time in the next 10 years you decide to leave the company, you'll have to reimburse us $20,000, or we'll sue you. Also if you fail to measure up during training, you're fired."

The man who had just given me my dream job listed still more hurdles.

"Each time, before we allow you near one of our multi million dollar aircraft we'll X-ray your flight bag and luggage, because we don't trust you. Also we'll ask you to pass through a magnetometer each time. If you fail to do so, you'll be arrested and jailed."

"When you've completed your flight, we'll have you provide a urine sample, because we don't trust you to not take drugs. Very soon, we plan to take a blood sample to look for more drugs. "Also if you ever fly with another crew member who may have used drugs or alcohol, you must report to us immediately. If you fail to notice that anyone has used these substances, you'll be fired, have your license to fly revoked, and be fined $10,000."

"Every six months, we want you to go back to the medical center for another exam. If they ever find a hint of a problem, your license to fly will be revoked and we'll fire you. Anytime you see a medical person, you must tell us about it so we can see if you need to be grounded and terminated. Also, we need to examine your driving record, and you must tell us if you have even any minor infractions so we can remove you from the cockpit as soon as possible."

"At any time, without notice, a special branch of the government will send one of its inspectors to ride in your aircraft. The inspector will demand to see your papers and license; if your papers are not in order, you'll be removed, fined, terminated, and possibly jailed."

"If at any time you make an error in judgment or an honest human mistake, you will be terminated, be fined tens of thousands of dollars, and be dragged through months of court proceedings. The government will make sure you never fly again for any airline."

"You will be well out of town most holidays, weekends, and family events - half our pilots are always on the job at any point in time.

Smiling an evil smile now, the airline hirer went on. "Oh, and one last thing to cover; occasionally, we in management fail to see a trend and screw up royally or the country's economy falls flat on its face. If as a result of one of those events the corporation begins to lose money, you as an employee will be expected to make up the losses from your paycheck.

Of course, management will not be held to the same standards.

Oh, and one last thing - if we negotiate pay and work rule concessions from you in the in exchange for a better pension plan, we probably won't fund that pension plan agreement (unlike the management pension plan and golden parachutes) and will likely have yanked it away from you."


"Now sign here," he pointed, grinning as he handed me a pen.

I faked a sudden nosebleed. Holding my head back and pinching my nostrils, I hurried from his office. When I got to the hall, I began to run. I ran all the way to my car. I figured if I hurried I could still get to the county vocational school before 5:00 and enroll in the industrial welding career program.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It would be funny if it weren't so tragically accurate....




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:06 am

I am a Delta Platinum Medallion member. I fly about 250,00 miles each year and last year 116,000 of those miles were with Delta.

The Delta pilots' refusal to accept further concessions and the resulting threat of strike has made me believe, for the first time, that my beloved Delta may not survive. What the Delta pilots are failing to acknowledge is that, for years, they had one of the best compensation packages in the entire airline industry. Unfortunately, times have changed and they need to change too. I am sure that Delta's current management is simply trying to bring the airline in line with it's competition. No carrier can afford to have significantly higher expenses than their peers anymore.

As a result, Delta has not been my first choice for a booking since February. Uncharacteristically for me, I have not earned any mileage points on DL since then. By the way, I am flying on Delta to Tampa tomorrow but I have chosen to use my frequent flyer miles for the ticket instead of paying. I have also used miles for two first class tickets to Hawaii for my parents.

I know that I am just being a fickle consumer but stability sways me. For the moment, my new airline of choice is United. However, their staff are not nearly as friendly and caring as the wonderful cabin and ground crews of Delta Airlines.

I hope that Delta survives but, for now, I have jumped ship.

Reggaebird
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 22):
d work only 14 days out of a month

Thats crap too! Tell me what airline pilot flies 14 days a month that is not pulling 20 hour trips to asia?
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
soylentgreen
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:33 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:14 am

What's the average pay of a Delta pilot?
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:26 am

Halls,
no, I do not wish to reconsider my statement. WN is not DL's peer. UA, US, and NW are and DL pilots will make more flying comparable equipment than those pilots. WN pilots do as well as they do because they work with management to make the airline work - even if it means doing things which appear on the surface to be substandard when compared with other carriers. The result? WN is the most stable and successful airline in the US. Their employees know exactly what it takes for WN to succeed and they make absolutely certain they do what they have to do to make WN's success their own.

There was a time when DL pilots felt and acted the same way but they are now more motivated by short term gains than long term stability. The company is thinking long-term and will not settle for what will not work in 3 years and beyond.

I will repeat again that the DL pilots have sat in Delta's board room for 10 years. They never questioned DL's strategy when it made them the highest paid in the industry and DL was one of the most profitable airlines in the world. If DL's strategy was flawed, then the pilots sat there and did nothing to turn it around despite being in a position to voice concern. The reality is that DL's strategy wasn't flawed before 9/11 and the explosion of low fare competition.

Given the huge change that has to take place to return DL to profitability, DL is actually moving faster in implementing changes than any carrier has ever done. There is no doubt that if the pilots had not dragged their feet over the first concession request and the company had started its restructuring about 2 years earlier, DL would not be in bankruptcy now.

Just look at AA. They were in almost the same position. The only thing that kept AA out of bankruptcy was because they had their hand on the pin and were ready to pull if it all of their labor didn't give the needed cuts. Those AA employees who cried so much about their cuts 3 years ago are feeling pretty good when they look at other airline employees and the continued turmoil they have faced since then. And those same AA employees yelled to shut the place down, too. How quickly some forget - by choice.
 
LAXDESI
Posts: 2775
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 8:13 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:34 am

Is it possible for Delta pilots to gain control of the company and run it in exchange for wage concessions? Will the other unions join/support such a move?
Can the pilot union appointed management do a better job than the current management?
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:37 am




Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 31):
Can the pilot union appointed management do a better job than the current management?

Can a bright chimp do a better job than the current management?





I kid, I kid...  Wink




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 31):
Is it possible for Delta pilots to gain control of the company and run it in exchange for wage concessions? Will the other unions join/support such a move?
Can the pilot union appointed management do a better job than the current management?

May I suggest you consider the history of United Airlines. UA entered the 90s with the greatest franchise in world aviation and became the largest employee owned company. A decade later, UA pilots were saying they would squeeze the golden goose until it laid its last egg. Well the goose was sent to the ER in a desperate attempt to prevent death, UA pilots are now some of the lowest paid in the industry, and there are now three other airlines in both the transatlantic and Latin American markets that are larger than UA.

Even a cursory read of UA's history shows that it was an abyssmal failure. No lenders will ever put employees in charge of an airline again.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
Halls,
no, I do not wish to reconsider my statement. WN is not DL's peer. UA, US, and NW are and DL pilots will make more flying comparable equipment than those pilots.

I think the proper statement is that Delta isn't Southwest's peer, quite frankly. Southwest is a well managed airline that is making money and growing. Delta is trying to grow, but isn't well managed nor is it making money.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
WN pilots do as well as they do because they work with management to make the airline work - even if it means doing things which appear on the surface to be substandard when compared with other carriers. The result? WN is the most stable and successful airline in the US

And it's all because Southwest's pilots work with their management? Maybe they work with management because their management isn't inept like Delta's - ever consider that?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
There was a time when DL pilots felt and acted the same way but they are now more motivated by short term gains than long term stability

LOL, you must really be a Delta management kool aid drinker. Management wonderful, pilots bad. Where was all this wisdom when Delta was making boatloads of cash? Fully funding the pension plan?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
I will repeat again that the DL pilots have sat in Delta's board room for 10 years. They never questioned DL's strategy when it made them the highest paid in the industry and DL was one of the most profitable airlines in the world.

Do you personally sit on the Delta Board of Directors? Just curious as to the source of all your insight. And by the way, the pilots have one seat. Out of how many?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
If DL's strategy was flawed, then the pilots sat there and did nothing to turn it around despite being in a position to voice concern. The reality is that DL's strategy wasn't flawed before 9/11 and the explosion of low fare competition

Hmmm. It's been how long since 9/11/01? And as far as their strategy not being flawed, the signs of trouble posed by LCC's were evident long before 9/11. What did management do about it then? Not much, it appears.

Let me ask you this question. How is cutting pilot pay going to raise Delta's RASM?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N908AW
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 7):
It sounds as if someone needs to bang some heads together at Delta's management or give them a reality check.

Financially, I think their reality check would bounce, don't you think?
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
av757
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:49 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
So you want to be an airline pilot?

Don't worry it happens all over the world at other airlines too...........

We just survived Chapter 11 last year and we didn't come out of it unscathed either.

AV757
 
bond007
Posts: 4428
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):
It is apparent to me that our pilots just don't get it. 94% in favor of a strike.

Hmmmm....94% of pilots that definitely know more about DL than you do - have their jobs and families at stake (at the very least)...and THEY don't get it ????

.....gimme a break  Yeah sure

Nuff said!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
N908AW
Posts: 864
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:57 am

C'mon, we all know DL pilots will chicken out the moment they hear the words 'shut down'. Just ask the NW pilots. I believe like 98% of them favored a strike.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
skaggs
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:03 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:01 pm

Heres the deal, and it is a quite simple problem with a quite simple solution.

When a family spends themselves into massive debt, they have to sell the Caddy, quit vacationing in Kauai and quit the country club. It hurts and it sucks, but it is the quickest way out of debt and the bleeding of cash as a result of that debt, once you turn the corner and contuinue to be responsible, it gets better, fast.

Delta is a family, I have been around it all my life. Everyone there is responsible to a degree for the current situation. It is usless to divide blame at this point.

The fact is, EVERYONE at Delta has to take a very painful lifestyle change to have any chance of turning the corner. The longer they delay it, the more painful it will be. Had they all realized this in 2000, it would have been moderately painful. Pilots and others are going to have to sell houses, toys and downsize big time. The company needs every penny they are asking to have any chance of survival. Still, most pilots will make over 100K....

The union needs to let them void the contract, and immediately start drafting a new one that will automatically raise pilot salries in conjunction with a return to profitability. That way, if the company starts makling money hand over fist, the pilots will too. The salaries will automatically decrease immediately if another major issue hits the industry. The company and employees must save during the good times for the lean times. They should have had a operating ratio as low or lower than it is now during the fat times.

My Dad is a retired Delta pilot and I have a personal intrest in this issue. If his pension goes away, it will be a serious issue with the way the USPGC looks at it. He had it pretty good. Pretty fat paycheck and great retirement (for now). He was a flyer and didn't play the system to fly 4 hrs a month and get paid 200 grand a year like some did. Pilots need to fly as close to 80 hrs a month as possible. Management needs to be held accountable for frivelous spending.

I know some current pilots and all of them are really going to strike. If the company gives in. Delta will not survive. I think they might not even if the pilots agree to their offer. I think all employees ahould dig deep for the next year. Eat beans, quit golfing. Management should draft a charter limiting salaries an bonuses to a reasonable level forever.

They can turn it around, it will suck beyond words, but it is temporary. Liquidation is permanent.

I hope they can set aside bravado and chest thumping and see the reality of the situation. They can either appear weak and give in and still have insurance and a liveable salary, or they can change careers in mid life with one skill that will be worth 25K a year the second they are on the street or they can starve on 100K a year, have medical for family and a good chance to go back to the 200K a year glory days.

Oh, all the rest of the employees that make real world wages (under 100K) will not be jobless too. Funny thing is, most of them have more marketable skills than the pilots and will probably be earning more than the pilots, on average in their new careers.

Bite the bullet guys and gals....
 
eal46859
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:22 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:06 pm

This has been an interesting thread. To re-hash, even if's true, that the previous (or current for that matter) management was bad, and that the pilot's contract in mid 2001 was overly generous, doesn't solve the issue at hand; that DL is at the abyss right now. The only rational course of action for the union is to make the best deal it can right now and live to fight another day. Otherwise you could see what I saw about 10 years ago: in an alumnus of sorts Eastern Airlines newspaper (Silverliners) was an article about 2 former EA captains who started a trucking company. They stood smiling in the picture in jeans and flannel shirts and spoke about their new 1 truck cross country trucking company. They were in their 50s. I believe they had been 757 captains. I'm sure if they had their way, they would have preferred to be flying instead of driving for a living.
 
swaluvfa
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri May 17, 2002 1:59 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 pm

After reading this, I had to borrow a friend's account to make a post:

Just a personal note about Karma: 10 years ago Delta, and DALPA did everything in their power to shutdown a then small airline called ValuJet. Yet in 2000, the pilots of AirTran watched in silent support as you paraded around the airport having another "practice strike". We were hoping, at the time, to make 60% of what you ultimately got in you new contract..

Even today, DL can drive an airplane off the runway on a clear, dry day and not make the news.. If AirTran has a bulb burn out, you make sure it hits the CNN ticker in 5 minutes..

Well, as I sit in my 8 day-old 737 waiting to takeoff in ATL, I look at the old MD-80, and the older 737-200.. I know that at 6 year pay I make more then both of those Capatins at 12 year pay, yet I once again sit in silent support.. This time I hope that you will not kill the once great name of Delta..

Remember our contract is up too, and maybe you should support us, and you too can hope for 60% of my pay...

Proud Captain,

AirTran Airways
 
9252fly
Posts: 1171
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:19 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:03 pm

Pssst! If you want to know how this is going to turn out,then look to the recent AC restructuring(history is a great guide). They will cut a deal at the 11th hour and life will go on. It's all too predictable. There is far too much at stake for all sides to let it tank. The pilots will end up taking a nasty hair cut and the company will not get everything they want. DL current restructuring process reminds me too much of what happened at AC. You can draw so many parallels with the two carriers,it's scary.
 
deputydawghere
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:45 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:09 pm

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 7):
It sounds as if someone needs to bang some heads together at Delta's management or give them a reality check.

Very well put my friend.
N/A
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting PeachAir (Thread starter):

Wellsaid. People think a strike is the best way to sort a situation out, but it can just make it worse. Look at BA
A strike every year, and the pilots set to do something this year.
As i posted on our intranet site
"If pilots strike we have no customers, no customers means no money, no money no jobs"
But what can we do, its up to them, they just make the rest of the team suffer like the handlers did last year. Lets hope pilots from both airlines see sense and dont make our passengers and the rest of the staff suffer
(added you to my Respect list)
Where does the time go???
 
clipperhawaii
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 3:35 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:02 pm

Well put Skaggs.

I can only hearken back to 1991-92 and say Pan Am/Delta. Delta lied to PAA employees back then and now Delta employees will know how PAA people felt. I have been bitter against Delta for backing out of a commitment to PAA and 15 years later a certain smirk come across my face. Sadly a lot of people who don't deserve to be hurt will be hurt.

"Delta, they love to lie and it shows."
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
A Delta 777 captain is currently making less than a Southwest captain flying a 737.

I've had enough of this silly rhetoric.

Compare the block hour operating cost (crew only) of the four US majors that fly the 777 before Delta began pay reductions with its pilots:

$1,537 - Delta
$1,199 - American
$1,055 - Continental
$1,055 - United

http://www.aviaglobal.com/displayANe...=&tfSearchText=costos%20operativos

757 - Delta the highest crew cost at $1,088, Continental lowest at $573.
MD-80 - Delta's $974 isn't that bad when compared to AA's $750, but Midwest Express is only $443 and Spirit is only $377.
MD-90 - Delta's $1,042, US Airways equivalent A321 only $444.
MD-11 - a staggering $2,311. In comparison, United's 744s $1,265, NW's 744s $1,766.

I believe the above data is from 2004, so it wouldn't reflect the first round of pilot concessions, the ~32% paycut (I forget the exact amount).

[Edited 2006-04-09 10:01:48]
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15837
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:21 pm

While I don't have a dog in this fight and I'm certainly not taking sides, I'm getting a little weary of the anti-pilot rhetoric. Yes, I get the fact that if they strike the whole company goes under. That's clear. They're the one workgroup on the property that wields this much influence and power over the company's destiny.

But....does that mean that they're "always, always and forever, amen" responsible to accept absolutely whatever management wants, then? Just because it'll keep everyone else employed?

What if they wanted 60% paycuts? Perhaps 70%? Do I hear 80%? What about 90%? At what point would it "ok" for pilots to say, "This is bullshit!" and stand up for themselves - or are they eternally obligated to give back whatever management asks because the rest of the company hangs in the balance?

Because so far, all I hear is the whining of others that the pilots need to suck it up - whatever is asked of them - to save the jobs of the other employees.

Is that fair?

Is that right?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:58 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
Because so far, all I hear is the whining of others that the pilots need to suck it up - whatever is asked of them - to save the jobs of the other employees.

I totally agree with you. What I would like to know is what payment, pension, bonus, etc. cuts management has taken thus far? ? Is management willing to take it as well?


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15837
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

A Personal Note To All DL Pilots

Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 48):
What I would like to know is what payment, pension, bonus, etc. cuts management has taken thus far? ? Is management willing to take it as well?

While it's a good question, even if every member of management were to take the same (or higher, even) percentage of paycuts, it would be largely symbolic and wouldn't make a meaningful difference in the bottom line - there are simply far more pilots than there are managers, and they're making far more in salary than management is.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group

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