Emirates Starts 3rd JFK Service Via HAM

srilankan · Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:54 am

Emirates will begin its 3rd frequency to JFK via Hamburg starting 29th October 2006. It will be operated on a 773-300ER aircraft.

PlaneHunter · Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:55 am

Can you provide a link or any kind of source?

PH

srilankan · Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:59 am

It will appear in the GDS within the next 3-4 days.

Sabena332 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:20 am

Interesting, a few weeks ago I read an interview with the European manager of Emirates, he said that they are not planning to fly nonstop to another destination than Dubai from German airports because "it is not their market".

Can someone provide the timetable for the DXB-HAM-JFK flight already?

Patrick

EddieDude · Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:24 am

Nice. 777-300ER! Do you happen to know if EK will have fifth freedom rights between JFK and HAM? I am sure they will, but I just want to make sure.

Thanks.

Humberside · Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:25 am

A couple of questions:

Do CO fly EWR-HAM?
Would EK have 5th freedoms HAM-JFK?
Also, why HAM as the stopover?

Thanks

Humberside

Sabena332 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 5):
Do CO fly EWR-HAM?

Yes, with a 752.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 5):
Would EK have 5th freedoms HAM-JFK?

No idea but I would think so.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 5):
Also, why HAM as the stopover?

I am asking myself the same but of course would I appreciate a HAM-JFK-HAM flight (when they have 5th freedom rights on that route).

Patrick

DAL767400ER · Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:50 am

All I can say is WTF? Not that I won't appreciate seeing a 773ER at HAM, on the contrary, I'd love it, but still I don't like this idea. If EK indeed enters HAM-NYC with 5th freedom rights, and employ their usual fare strategy, CO might enter a tough time with this competition, and IMO, over the long term this could lead to CO pulling out of HAM, which also can't be in the sense of the airport operators.

ChrisZRH · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:16 am

All I can say is WTF too...
didn't even know they had a 2nd frequency... so they now will have 3 daily flights DXB-JFK?

chris

AeroWesty · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
but still I don't like this idea. If EK indeed enters HAM-NYC with 5th freedom rights, and employ their usual fare strategy, CO might enter a tough time with this competition

"Open skies" is a policy that the U.S. has sought for well over a decade now. If CO can't compete in a market, they'll just have to pull out. It can't be "open skies except where it might cause existing service to cease". That would be "regulation".

rjpieces · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:41 am

It begins...Analysts have long feared that Emirates starting trans-atlantic flights will kill some of the majors most profitable yields....HAM of course isn't the most important business city but it can be a sign of what is to come.

dutchjet · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:43 am

The idea that EK wants to open a 3rd daily flight to JFK does not surpirse me, especially if its via a European gateway where EK would have 5th freedom rights to carry pax between JFK and Europe......it could be an interesting niche for them: look how well SQ does on the JFK-FRA segment, SQ does so well that the nonstop between NYC and SIN is operated from EWR so that the JFK-FRA-SIN flight could remain. Also consider that EK is looking for some markets outside of the DXB hub.......look at EK's Trans-Tasman operations for example: EK has lots of airliners on order and not all of the expansion plans necessary include the DXB hub.

But Hamburg - that is a big surpirse, why Hamburg? CO does operate a 752 between its EWR hub and HAM.....that started last year, but I would think that EK would look for more glamorous and more interesting rotues - such as JFK to ZRH or GVA, or to a city in the UK outside of London (EK is a rather big player in the UK market) to get into the trans-atlantic market, if the bi-laterals allowed such 5th freedom flights.

Hamburg? Lets see whats announced this week.

TIA · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
IMO, over the long term this could lead to CO pulling out of HAM, which also can't be in the sense of the airport operators.

Obviously this is not good for CO. But how much of HAM-EWR is o&d traffic? If most pax are connecting beyond EWR, I don't believe that the CO operation will be greatly affected.

kiwiandrew · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
The idea that EK wants to open a 3rd daily flight to JFK does not surpirse me, especially if its via a European gateway where EK would have 5th freedom rights to carry pax between JFK and Europe......it could be an interesting niche for them: look how well SQ does on the JFK-FRA segment, SQ does so well that the nonstop between NYC and SIN is operated from EWR so that the JFK-FRA-SIN flight could remain. Also consider that EK is looking for some markets outside of the DXB hub.......look at EK's Trans-Tasman operations for example:

EKs Tasman ops exist for a single reason - the extortionate parking charges on the ground at Aussie airports - it is cheaper for EK to fly the a/c across to AKL and CHC than to leave them sitting on the ground in Australia - which raises the question : how expensive are parking charges at HAM ?

EddieDude · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:51 am

Well, Hamburg is Germany's second city, one of the three largest ports in Europe and a very prosperous city that is home to many transnational corporations. Whether JFK-GVA may sound more glamorous, I am sure that the market for non-stop flights between the U.S. and Hamburg can be developed to more than just 180 seats per day.

AeroWesty · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Analysts have long feared that Emirates starting trans-atlantic flights will kill some of the majors most profitable yields

So what? Given the desire and fleet, any U.S. airline could field a fleet of 747's to DXB, connect passengers and take on local traffic, then fly onto any third country where we have an open skies agreement, or where it's allowed by bi- or multi-laterals. There are multiple opportunities just like this around the world.

jacobin777 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):

So what? Given the desire and fleet, any U.S. airline could field a fleet of 747's to DXB, connect passengers and take on local traffic, then fly onto any third country where we have an open skies agreement, or where it's allowed by bi- or multi-laterals. There are multiple opportunities just like this around the world.

exactly...its not EK's fault every NA-air carrier are a bunch of whimps and no longer want to fly to middle east countries-such as DL did pre-9-11, even though NA-air carriers could probably fly to CAI amongst other places........

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
its not EK's fault every NA-air carrier are a bunch of whimps and no longer want to fly to middle east

Whimps? If there were honestly money to be made, US airlines would be flying to cities in the Middle East outside of Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, the market is limited in most every respect. The small local markets are catered by the national airlines like Egyptair and Royal Jordanian, while others like Emirates benefit from connecting power. And it isn't the fault of airlines that insurance companies charge large premiums to certain airlines from certain countries to fly their planes to certain Middle Eastern airports.

jacobin777 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
Whimps? If there were honestly money to be made, US airlines would be flying to cities in the Middle East outside of Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, the market is limited in most every respect. The small local markets are catered by the national airlines like Egyptair and Royal Jordanian, while others like Emirates benefit from connecting power. And it isn't the fault of airlines that insurance companies charge large premiums to certain airlines from certain countries to fly their planes to certain Middle Eastern airports.

NA-based carriers have 5th freedom rights in/to middle east countries...hence my comment about DL, which was flying to DXB via CAI, even in 2001......the market is there.....many people would prefer to fly NA-based carriers (for whatever reason) over the "home" carrier.......hence UA's and NW's large Asia presence.....

kaitak744 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting ChrisZRH (Reply 8):

didn't even know they had a 2nd frequency... so they now will have 3 daily flights DXB-JFK?

Yes. It was 1x daily A340-500. Then 2x daily A340-500. Then 1x daily A340-500 and 1x daily 777-300ER. Now, its 1x daily A340-500, 1x daily 777-300ER, and 1x daily 777-300ER with a stop in Hamburg.

AeroWesty · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
many people would prefer to fly NA-based carriers (for whatever reason) over the "home" carrier.......hence UA's and NW's large Asia presence..

I would gather that UA's and NW's advantage (over other U.S. airlines) in Asia, not presence, is the result of the long-standing U.S.-Japan bilateral, not a home team preference.

Count the number of non-stops between the U.S. and places such as Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, even Singapore. I think you'll see U.S.-based carrier's frequency solely lacking.

PlaneHunter · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:52 am

I'm still skeptical about the whole story and better wait for a credible confirmation...

PH

rjpieces · Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:58 am

I wonder what the timing of this new flight will be....

Sabena332 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 21):
I'm still skeptical about the whole story

Me too, especially because of the interview I mentioned in reply #3.

Patrick

jacobin777 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
I would gather that UA's and NW's advantage (over other U.S. airlines) in Asia, not presence, is the result of the long-standing U.S.-Japan bilateral, not a home team preference.

Count the number of non-stops between the U.S. and places such as Hong Kong, Taipei, Seoul, even Singapore. I think you'll see U.S.-based carrier's frequency solely lacking.

nonstop or via a 5th freedom right, UA, NW have a strong presence in the market (certainly enough to make a difference), and it is continuously growing.......as more open skies agreements kick in, we'll see even a deeper penetration of US-based carriers into Asia and India..

DAL767400ER · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting TIA (Reply 12):
Obviously this is not good for CO. But how much of HAM-EWR is o&d traffic? If most pax are connecting beyond EWR, I don't believe that the CO operation will be greatly affected.

Well, I don't have any numbers at hand, but I would guess that O&D at EWR actually make up quite a large number of pax. CO has been pretty much focusing on advertising NYC as a destination, not as a connection airport, and with whomever I talk about this CO flight, most people talk about taking the flight to "finally visit New York".

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
Well, Hamburg is Germany's second city,

In what area? Population-wise, there are still a few cities with more inhabitants in Germany than Hamburg Wink

.

DETA737 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:59 am

I know that the United States has an open skies treaty with both Germany and the UAE, now I'm not sure if Germany has an open skies agreement with the UAE. If so, then Emirates would have complete fifth freedom rights on this route. If this story is credible and Emirates does begin HAM-JFK, then this could be the beginning of what I've long suspected, that Emirates along with Etihad, Qatar Airways will begin flying Transatlantic flights taking advantage of open skies agreements.

Hopefully this rumour is true and they expand flying across the Atlantic and help bring fares lower and perhaps drive service levels up.

SInGAPORE_AIR · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:17 am

Let the free market rule and government intervention and aero-political, financial or otherwise subsidies be gone!

jfklganyc · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:25 am

So this is how Dubai becomes the world's largest hub in 10 years.

Emirates will be the next Pan Am . . . . Smile

Hey, you never know!

PJ

Hirnie · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:26 am

For me the 773 seems to be a rather big aircraft to open especially the HAM - JFK sector. EK doesn`t provide a connecting network at each end of this leg. So the seats have to be filled with O&D and those poor guys who didn`t get the nonstop between New York and Dubai...perhaps LH wins some pax on their "connecting flights" out of and into HAM Wink

Only my 2 cts

nycflyer · Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 5):
Also, why HAM as the stopover?

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
Whether JFK-GVA may sound more glamorous, I am sure that the market for non-stop flights between the U.S. and Hamburg can be developed to more than just 180 seats per day.

Eddie, you hit the nail on the head. I think HAM is the largest European city with the least n/s service to the U.S. - just CO's 1x daily, and that's it. HAM seems to be a great choice.

antskip · Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
EKs Tasman ops exist for a single reason - the extortionate parking charges on the ground at Aussie airports

Can you provide some evidence for that statement? I find it hard to believe that the ONLY reason for EK's substantial investment in its New Zealand operations is due to that one factor.

EddieDude · Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 30):
I think HAM is the largest European city with the least n/s service to the U.S.

Yes Jay, I think Hamburg has a lot of potential. A few posts ago I mentioned that Hamburg was Germany's second city and our friend DAL767400ER was very kind to correct me, but from what I have heard from German friends and during my visit to Hamburg in 2004, it seems that under certain parameters Hamburg is considered Germany's second city... I guess economic output would be that parameter. In any case, its importance as a major trade center for the whole continent and its prosperity make it, in my opinion, a place deserving better connections to the U.S.

srilankan · Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:31 am

Here is the schedule:

DXB/HAM 0855/1255
HAM/JFK 1440/1700

JFK/HAM 2315/1235+1
HAM/DXB 1415/2325

The existing direct JFK (EK201) also departs DXB at 0830 and returns from JFK at 2300. Very similar timings to the new flight.

Yes, EK has 5th freedom traffic rights between HAM-JFK vv.

AA777 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:40 am

EK should think about starting another city in the US. Perhaps IAD, ORD, or LAX. To me, three flights to JFK - two A345s and one 77W...is just a little excessive. But, maybe I am wrong.

-AA777

28thguy · Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:47 am

I agree with others... It seems odd to me that a 3rd flight into JFK, routing via Hamburg, would be more profitable a flight to ATL, ORD, or EWR.

Another underserved niche for Emirates might be day flights to Europe... they might be able to get better aircraft utilization than an American carrier trying the same routing. I sure wish there were more daytime flights eastbound from NYC.

EddieDude · Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:24 am

The EK 777-300ER's are configured with 10-abreast seats in the economy class cabin, right?

CRGsFuture · Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting NYCFlyer:
Eddie, you hit the nail on the head. I think HAM is the largest European city with the least n/s service to the U.S. - just CO's 1x daily, and that's it. HAM seems to be a great choice.

Your forgetting 1x daily JFK-GVA served by LX.

EddieDude · Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:46 am

Doesn't CO fly to GVA from EWR non-stop John?

Zkpilot · Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting Antskip (Reply 31):
Can you provide some evidence for that statement? I find it hard to believe that the ONLY reason for EK's substantial investment in its New Zealand operations is due to that one factor.

That is the main reason why they do it, they have said so themselves. Other reasons being it takes money away from QF, gets them extra pax for their onwards flights to DBX, and establishes them for their eventually goal of flying from Australia/NZ to the US west coast thus completing their global chain of world domination. How do they do this? People say oil money ie cheap fuel. This is incorrect as they pay what everyone else does. Where EK gets all its money from is a) being in a good geographical location to be a world hub, b) cramming pax into their cattle class (they sit 3-4-3 in T7s!!), c) They don't have to pay company tax (imagine if other airlines could all of a sudden keep 30% thereabouts of their money??!), and d) their staff don't have to pay income tax or very little so the airline doesn't have to pay them such high wages as other airlines. So in reality it is because of the oil, just not directly.

Leskova · Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
how expensive are parking charges at HAM ?

EK059 arrives at HAM from DXB at 13:45, EK060 leaves HAM for DXB at 16:00; sure, it's a rather long wait, but I just don't see them flying the plane to New York to shorten a 2:15 stopover...

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
Well, Hamburg is Germany's second city,

No, not really - in what way? They're on position one in a couple of things, but in most regards, Hamburg is in neither of the top two positions.

Regards,
Frank

Emirates2005 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
Yes. It was 1x daily A340-500. Then 2x daily A340-500. Then 1x daily A340-500 and 1x daily 777-300ER. Now, its 1x daily A340-500, 1x daily 777-300ER, and 1x daily 777-300ER with a stop in Hamburg.

Have tried searching for a photo of an EK 773 at JFK, but could not find any. Does anyone know of any pictures?

Thanks Smile

UA 777 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 40):
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 14):
Well, Hamburg is Germany's second city,

No, not really - in what way? They're on position one in a couple of things, but in most regards, Hamburg is in neither of the top two positions.

Coming from Hamburg myself, I think it needs to be clarified, that Hamburg is indeed Germany's second largest city population-wise (Berlin has 3.39, Hamburg 1.73 and Munich 1.25 mio inhabitants) and even area-wise. Based on per capita GDP, Hamburg is even the most prosperous region of Germany and second in the EU after London (according to the EU).

Regards

SQ325 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 5:40 pm

I think its kind of strange.
On one hand they delayed the Service to Ham for, i think more than 6 month, because of lack of aircrafts and now they send the same aircraft further to JFK making the aircrafts run 20hours longer!
I like flying EK but sometimes their strategy seems to be strange and i have my doubts that the demand on the HAM-NYC route will fill a B773.
Most of the Business class passengers will continue flying LH or BA just because of the flexibility using 5 or more connections per day.
But anyhow for they will provide some nice prices for tourists to NYC and still making money because fuel is cheap in Dubai Wink

regards

hjulicher · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 30):
Eddie, you hit the nail on the head. I think HAM is the largest European city with the least n/s service to the U.S. - just CO's 1x daily, and that's it. HAM seems to be a great choice.

Actually the largest city in Europe without any direct N/A flights is St. Petersburg. The city has 5 million inhabitants, and is Russia's second largest. LED has no flights outside the european continent and russia. Hopefully, someone will pick up on this quickly and realise the oportunity available.

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:40 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 44):
The city has 5 million inhabitants, and is Russia's second largest. LED has no flights outside the european continent and russia.

There are non-stops to Seoul and Tel Aviv.

ZK-NBT · Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting Emirates2005 (Reply 41):

Have tried searching for a photo of an EK 773 at JFK, but could not find any. Does anyone know of any pictures?

They don't start until July or August.

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 19):
Yes. It was 1x daily A340-500. Then 2x daily A340-500. Then 1x daily A340-500 and 1x daily 777-300ER. Now, its 1x daily A340-500, 1x daily 777-300ER, and 1x daily 777-300ER with a stop in Hamburg.

DAL767400ER · Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 44):
Actually the largest city in Europe without any direct N/A flights is St. Petersburg. The city has 5 million inhabitants, and is Russia's second largest. LED has no flights outside the european continent and russia. Hopefully, someone will pick up on this quickly and realise the oportunity available.

There is a proposed start-up named Baltia Air that wants to start LED-JFK service with 742s starting this year. Don't know more about them, though.

Quoting UA 777 (Reply 42):
Coming from Hamburg myself, I think it needs to be clarified, that Hamburg is indeed Germany's second largest city population-wise (Berlin has 3.39, Hamburg 1.73 and Munich 1.25 mio inhabitants) and even area-wise.

Gotta admit, had wrong numbers in my head with regards to population, as I was thinking more of MSA's than just the cities itself, hence for Frankfurt in my thinking I included cities like Offenbach, Hanau or Hattersheim.
Though, despite HAM being the second-largest City in Germany, I would think they are more like 4 or 5 when it comes to MSAs.

Delta777Jet · Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:46 pm

I m sure the result will be that CO need to stop the service to EWR in worsest scenario. However my guess is, that there is enough space for two carriers serving the route. EK might fit well, because when DL was flying this route and the ATL one, there was not enough business pax supporting high revenues. I think its a good test field for them and once again they showing Lufthansa how they forgot about the other parts of germany except FRA and MUC !! Lufthansa bye bye !

jfr · Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 32):
Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 30):
I think HAM is the largest European city with the least n/s service to the U.S.

Yes Jay, I think Hamburg has a lot of potential. A few posts ago I mentioned that Hamburg was Germany's second city and our friend DAL767400ER was very kind to correct me, but from what I have heard from German friends and during my visit to Hamburg in 2004, it seems that under certain parameters Hamburg is considered Germany's second city... I guess economic output would be that parameter. In any case, its importance as a major trade center for the whole continent and its prosperity make it, in my opinion, a place deserving better connections to the U.S.

I'm guessing that a market like HAM has probably got great CARGO potential too. Maybe EK figures breakeven's less risky to/from such a big logistics hub.

And there's much less cargo and passenger competition. It's a lot easier to take on a carpetbagger like CO than LH.

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