flyprivate
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:07 am

this could be history

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/704479.html



El Al looking to buy Airbus planes for first time
10.4.06 | 11:20 By Zohar Blumenkrantz

El Al is seriously considering buying airplanes from Airbus Industries for the first time ever.

Until now, El Al has had an all-Boeing fleet, but is on the verge of purchasing a number of Airbus A-350s and A-330s, TheMarker has learned.

A high level delegation of Airbus executives met yesterday with El Al's owners and senior officials, along with representatives of the Israel Aircraft Industries, at the offices of the Borovich-Moses Group (BMG).

A month ago, a less senior team from Airbus visited El Al in secret and presented management with a proposal to purchase the Airbus A-330s.

Yesterday's meeting was, for all practical purposes, the beginning of negotiations over the deal, and issues such as price, delivery schedules and credit were discussed.

The new planes are meant to replace El Al's old Boeing 767s.
 
SNATH
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting FlyPrivate (Thread starter):
for the first time ever.

I thought they had agreed to buy A330s some time ago? Did that order get stalled?

Anyway, despite the fact that I'm mostly leaning towards Boeing, if ELAL thinks that the Airbuses are the best planes for them, good for them and congratulations to both ELAL and Airbus, if it happens. I'm very happy when I see airlines buying what they think it's best, and not what the politicians dictate to them.

My  twocents 

Tony
Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
 
Johnny
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:17 am

El AL and Airbus?

No way...
 
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PM
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 1):
I thought they had agreed to buy A330s some time ago? Did that order get stalled?

They wanted to buy A330s at the same time as they ordered 777s but it naver happened. It is argued that the US put pressure on Israel and so they backed away from Airbus.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 2):
El AL and Airbus? No way...

People are still saying this but I suspect things are changing. Moreover, watch them order RR engines to go with the A330s!
 
CHRISBA777ER
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:22 am

I'll believe this when I see it signed.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Hirnie
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:26 am

Me to!!!
I believe it when I see an Airbus in El Al colours.
There`s still the same guy sitting in the oval office.

But if Airbus gets the deal done, my congratulations...
 
slz396
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:29 am

EL AL is known to be wildly enthusiastic about the A330 yet were stopped from actually ordering some due to massive US pressure on the Israeli government as PM mentioned, but the airline was privatised some time ago, so I think things have chanced in Tel Aviv and the airline can make fleet decisions fully independently now.
 
LeonB1985
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:36 am

Hmmm, I wonder if privatisation will give LY the 'freedom' to choose to opt for the A330. Would be interesting to see an A330 sporting the Star of David!  Smile
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
dutchjet
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:43 am

Just wait until George and Condilezza here about this!

EL AL does need to do something about its aging 757/762/763 fleet, I always assumed that EL AL would go with a mix of 777/787 aircraft to cover this segment, but maybe EL AL cannot/doesnot want to wait until the 787 is in service......some of EL AL's 767s (the original 4 ordered direct from Boeing, not the 762s that are ex-AF or the 763ER) and 757s are very early build, and fuel effecieny is becoming an issue with the 762 aircraft with high oil prices, so maybe that is what all of this is about. An EL AL A330......maybe, when I see, I will believe it!
 
LeonB1985
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:49 am

I believe B767-200 4X-EAA was LY's first and reportedly delivered some time during 1983 - so we're talking 23 years now!
From the construction site that is better-known as London Heathrow Airport
 
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PM
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting LeonB1985 (Reply 9):
I believe B767-200 4X-EAA was LY's first and reportedly delivered some time during 1983 - so we're talking 23 years now!

Yes, their first four 767s (2 x -200 and 2 x -200ER) were built and delivered in 1983 and 1984. High time they were replaced, I'd say.
 
rjpieces
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:57 am

I don't see a need for LY to order the 330/350 right now. The 330s would have been good for them six years ago, but it makes no sense to order it now when the 787 will soon be in service.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
md90fan
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:58 am

I'd say if they are replacing 76S the 762(non-ER) will be the first to get the boot, because they were built in 1983.

Until recently didnt LY say they wanted some more 763?
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
khobar
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 6):
EL AL is known to be wildly enthusiastic about the A330 yet were stopped from actually ordering some due to massive US pressure on the Israeli government

Are you referring to Madeline Albright?

Good grief...
 
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PM
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 11):
The 330s would have been good for them six years ago, but it makes no sense to order it now when the 787 will soon be in service.

It's be in service relatively soon but not with El Al. They'd probably have to wait a few years for 787s whereas they could probably have A330s in 12 - 18 months. (Let's not forget the gaps in the production line that EK's deferral of A340s have created. There's always a silver lining - even for beleagured Airbus!)
 
Thorben
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:26 am

The A332 would actually be a pretty smart choice. They could have them much sooner than the 787 or even the A350. And those 767s need to leave, they are outdated. Maybe we can someday even see an El Al A380 for the JFK route. They could lease two of them.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
aviationwiz
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:27 am

This topic comes up on A.Net every few months (thank god less than the NW DC-9 threads were showing up!)

Every time, nothing happens. I'll believe it when I see an Airbus in LY colors, which I just don't think is going to happen.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
Johnny
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:33 am

Lets wait for a additional B777-order.

El AL will get A330´s only if they would be produced in the USA.

That is all political - not worth to discuss about it unfortunately...
 
Thorben
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
Lets wait for a additional B777-order.

El AL will get A330´s only if they would be produced in the USA.

That is all political - not worth to discuss about it unfortunately...

The state only owns 30% of them now, there is a chance they can free themselves from being forced to buy Boeing.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
kaitak
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:41 am

I don't see it happening; EL AL will buy 787s (indeed, they've already suggested as much, with a figure of around 10 mentioned), BUT in order to get a good negotiating position with Boeing, there needs to be a viable alternative.

Of course, unlike last time, this is a problem many airlines face now. I'm not sure Boeing will fall for this; the A350 is a dead duck and it's not just LY but many other airlines that will have trouble getting it to look like a possible alternative; of course, Boeing probably knows that even if Airbus is ordered, the political pressure will be intense.

If Airbus ever had a chance, the A330-200 was its best bet, but I don't think it's going to happen now.
 
PanHAM
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting PM (Reply 21):

With respect, it probably matters somewhat more what the managers of El Al think and, according to this report, they're talking seriously to Airbus.

Indeed, and without them talking to Airbus there would be no pressure on Boeing over the price of their product. Personally, I don't think that we will see the Blue Star on an Airbus, but Boeing shouldn't be too sure of that and it certainly would not mean the end of Israel. Sorry, Cedarjet, but that conclusion is really not too smart.

The 762s might go to the IAF since the 707 VIP transports really need to be replaced.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
HS748
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:13 am

ElAl would need the approval of the US Government and clearly they're not going to get it. If ElAl orders from Airbus I'll run naked down the local high street!
 
columba
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:28 am

Quote:
A high level delegation of Airbus executives met yesterdayrnwithrnEl Al's owners and senior officials, along with representativesrnof thernIsrael Aircraft Industries

Can somebody please nexplain why representatives of the Israel Aircraft Industries are there when El Al is negotiating a deal with Airbus ?
Could it be possible that maybe Airbus is offering Israel a deal to become involved in the A350 programme in some way ?
To win a loyal Boeing customer like El Al as a A350 customer would be a huge success for Airbus and the A350, so I guess Airbus will do anything to win this order because its symbolic value would be tremendous and maybe will lead to more orders by other airlines.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
khobar
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting HS748 (Reply 21):
ElAl would need the approval of the US Government and clearly they're not going to get it.

 Confused

Who do you think they should ask for this approval, specifically?
 
HS748
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 23):
Who do you think they should ask for this approval, specifically?

Don't you do irony?
 
A342
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El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 22):
Could it be possible that maybe Airbus is offering Israel a deal to become involved in the A350 programme in some way ?

It is even highly possible I´d say. IAI is an experienced firm with good reputation in the aerospace industry.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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LTU932
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:35 am

El Al getting Airbus aircraft is as probable as Embraer producing widebodies.

In my opinion, it ain't gonna happen. Stateowned or not, El Al will go for Boeing aircraft.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ikramerica
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:43 am

With French support of Israel's "enemies" it would be a true matter of selling out for El Al, even privately owned, to buy Airbus. Stranger things have happened, but I would imagine the public sentiment within Israel would be very negative should this really happen.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
YoungFlyer
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:43 am

I could find a few reasons for this:

1. maybe LY is trying to get Boeing to lower its price a little...
2. since Ly's 767 fleet is getting old, maybe they think that by the time the 787 would be delivered to them it will be a little too late...

It would be a little weird to see an Airbus in LY colors.
Dan

p.s. when will LY have to worry about replacing their 744s?
"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" -Gandhi
 
imatams
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
The A332 would actually be a pretty smart choice.

I think that, if there's any truth to all this, why they would go airbus. Boeing can't offer anything on short notice as an effective repacement of the 767's. The T7 is just too big as a replacement for the 762's, and the 787 won't be available to LY until I guess 2010 even if they order now... And those 767's really need replacement or a SERIOUS interior upgrade to keep LY's product competitive, especially since those 767 are used for some very long flights..
They might have realised this and concluded that their options are limited basically to the 332 (unless they order NEW 767's, yeah right...)

Still a weird idea, 'busses for LY, and i'll believe it when I see firm orders, especially in the A350's case.

IM
 
khobar
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting HS748 (Reply 24):
Don't you do irony?

Not in this case. Please, do tell.
 
cwapilot
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 5):
There`s still the same guy sitting in the oval office.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Just wait until George and Condilezza here about this!

Wasn't the A330 deal stopped when Jesus...I mean....Clinton was in office? If you guys have to throw in your gratuitous Bush bashing as part of your duty as EU citizens, at least do it in a proper context. An Al Gore or John Kerry administration would take the same line, probably because, if not for the US dole, Israel would not exist. Add that to the fact that the EU still chooses to bankroll the Palestinian government (now a.k.a. Hamas), and you have a pretty strong political case for what is always a very strongly political order. (right or wrong).
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
nucsh
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:47 am

I'm not all too surprised that El Al might be leaning towards Airbus (politically speaking). It's an entirely new government, and entirely new situation.
If landing is about "kissing" the ground, you just about raped it.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:04 am

El-Al needs an offer from A to show it to the B-folks, only to get the price at B right.

Otherwise Al-Al would be the only airline in the world to pay list price.

It is no more complicated than that.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Viper911
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting FlyPrivate (Thread starter):
El Al is seriously considering buying airplanes from Airbus Industries for the first time ever.

First of all, i cant believe this true when ill see them in TLV ill be Convinced, but if this is True i cant wait to see them in LY fleet  Smile
 
Navion
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Nucsh (Reply 32):



Quoting Nucsh (Reply 32):
I'm not all too surprised that El Al might be leaning towards Airbus (politically speaking). It's an entirely new government, and entirely new situation.

I couldn't disagree more. Israel literally owes it's continued existence to the U.S.A. No other country in Europe or anywhere else have provided the steady and unflagging support of the country both financially and militarily. I realize it's a warm and fuzzy idea that they would just throw hundreds of millions of dollars Europe's way to spread the wealth but that wouldn't help their cause ultimately and they know for their continued survival, only the U.S. can be truly counted on. If the "new government" starts treating the U.S. the "same" as everyone else, they'll be in deep sh*t because everyone else has "hedged their bet" on Israel at one point or another. That said, I doubt them ordering a few A330's in the meantime would cause much problem because there may be an unmet need, but the A350 would be a mistake given the performance, cost, and flexibility of the 787 family.
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting HS748 (Reply 21):
If ElAl orders from Airbus I'll run naked down the local high street!

Make sure there are some a.nutters ready with cameras....you could post your run in the 'Trip Reports' section....  Big grin
 
aerokiwi
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 25):
It is even highly possible I´d say. IAI is an experienced firm with good reputation in the aerospace industry.

I'm not all that up to date on Mid-East business dealings, though it did occur to me that perhaps a significant Israeli commerical invovlement in the A350 may hamper A350 sales to Arab airlines from states hostile to Israel.

Before you jump down my throat, I'm not saying this is true, just speculating on the influence of politics in Mideast business affairs. Does it really extend to this kind of situation? Everything seems to be made from bits and pieces from virtually everywhere these days, so perhaps it doesn't really matter.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:43 am

Like others have said... The US has always lent their support and our pocket book to Israel. Does not matter if the state only owns 30% of LY... The money or part of it that runs LY most likely comes from US. Also since 1949 the US has given Israel 135 Billion $$$! Since Clinton took office in 1992 the US government has offered Israel an additional $2 billion in loan guarantees every year. All past loans to Israel have been almost completely forgiven, leading Israel to claim that they have never defaulted on repayment of a US loan with most loans made on the understanding that they would be forgiven before Israel was required to repay them. Their military is built from US companies and money given by the DOD and the US government. Israel has the world’s largest fleet of F-16s outside the US, currently possessing 200 jets with a further 102 on order with American manufacturer Lockheed Martin. They also are still recieving 25 F-15Is they ordered for the Israelian Air Force from Boeing back in 1999 I believe. I find it very very hard to see Israel purchase Airbus product when the US is the one paying the bills.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
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ER757
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:09 am

If LY do order these aircraft, it would be as big a WOW as the AC order for 777/787, to say the least. I'd be surprised if they actually do, but stranger things have happened.
 
wjcandee
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Navion (Reply 35):
No other country in Europe or anywhere else have provided the steady and unflagging support of the country both financially and militarily.

Least of all FRANCE.  Yeah sure
 
Hirnie
Posts: 473
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Cwapilot (Reply 31):
Wasn't the A330 deal stopped when Jesus...I mean....Clinton was in office? If you guys have to throw in your gratuitous Bush bashing as part of your duty as EU citizens, at least do it in a proper context. An Al Gore or John Kerry administration would take the same line, probably because, if not for the US dole, Israel would not exist. Add that to the fact that the EU still chooses to bankroll the Palestinian government (now a.k.a. Hamas), and you have a pretty strong political case for what is always a very strongly political order. (right or wrong).

Clinton was in office,.. even more worse because Bush will bomb anybody who`s against him instead of finding political solutions.
The EU doesn`t finance anymore the Hamas lead palestinensian gouvernment.
Get your facts right!!!
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
Lets wait for a additional B777-order.

El AL will get A330´s only if they would be produced in the USA.

That is all political - not worth to discuss about it unfortunately...

I agree. I'll believe it when I see an Airbus in El Al colors. They only jets they fly are stamped "Made in USA". The relationship with Israel and the US is simple. The US provides a huge amount of foreign aid to them (more than all of Africa and most of Southeast Asia combined) and they in turn buy American goods, preferentially. Look at their airforce. F-15s and F-16s, before those, F-4s. It's been this way for decades. I'd be genuinely surprised if the US government let this happen without exerting a huge amount of pressure. The Bush administration is unashamedly pro-business. They'd go to bat for Boeing. I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying its reality. The European governments play the same games.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
UAL4ever
Posts: 51
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:14 am

It will simply never happen. I expect to see a 787 order fairly soon.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:29 am

I'll belive it whe I see it. I'll leave it at work.

Quoting HS748 (Reply 21):
If ElAl orders from Airbus I'll run naked down the local high street!

If you get every girl at work to run naked with you, I'll fly to Europe for a day to watch.  biggrin 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 44):
I'll belive it whe I see it. I'll leave it at work.

I mean, I'll leave it at that.
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:11 am

Food for thought - US Foreign aid to Egypt amounting to approximately $50B since 1979 is pegged at 2/3 of which country?

Perhaps the extra <$750M/year is the deciding factor between Boeing and Airbus?
 
CRGsFuture
Posts: 513
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:04 pm

RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:19 am

Airbus and LY, thanks for the laugh. Look LY will buy the B788's because they have more what LY wants and are Boeing. LY with a A333 doesn't make sense. I wish them well but I agree I don't see it happening. With the A333's replacement coming online in 4 years in the 350, it really a waste of money and LY should keep their wallet in their pocket as it is a worthless investment but that's me.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
FlyingDove
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:31 pm

RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:41 am

Leaving all politics aside, since they have been discussed to death a whole slew of times in the recent past, I'd like to ask a few questions to redirect the conversation back towards the original post:

1) What are the advantages of the A330 that El Al would be interested in?

2) Is it possible that El Al is interested in using these aircraft temporarily until their [future] order of 787's can be delivered?

3) Would it be worth it for El Al to have a mix of B and A aircraft in its relatively small fleet?

4) Why couldn't El AL lease some of those newer aircraft that we always hear about sitting in the desert?

5) IAI representatives at a meeting with Airbus could have nothing to do with IAI involvement in the A350 program and everything to do with assuring El Al's security needs in a plane they have never used before, such as the A330 which they would be ordering.

Looking forward to hearing answers to these REAL issues at hand, rather than whether or not George, Bill or Jaques could care less about LY's next order.

Cheers,

FLYINGDOVE
 
Ken777
Posts: 9999
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RE: El Al Looking To Buy Airbus Planes

Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:54 am

If El Al wants the 330s then let them buy them. There will be battles at the government levels and with 435 members of the House of Representatives heading for re-election in November (plus one third of the Senate) let the politicians decide to maintain current levels of financial support, or reduce the level of support by the amount of the order. Those yo-yos, sorry, politicians want to get re-elected and an Airbus order from El Al is the last thing they need. Maybe the order will be held off until after the elections so it will only be 2007 cash that is cut. Maybe France will make up the difference. Sure they will.

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