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MD88Captain
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:36 am

I received an email from DALPA today (4-11) stating that there has been no major movement in negotiations and that strike preparations are in full swing. For what it is worth.
 
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:44 am

Thanks for the update. Best of luck to both DL and DALPA. Hopefully an agreement can be reached.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
N160LH
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
For what it is worth.


I recieved this letter in my email a couple days ago.... Take a sec to read it and maybe you will understand what its worth...!

"Tuesday, April 04, 2006
A Letter To Delta Pilots
Greetings Capt. Moak,

I am a reservations agent in Tampa, Florida and I thought that it might be beneficial to express to you what many of us on the front lines feel about the pilot's position regarding a strike. I don't write this to attack you in any way, and in fact, I am probably more sympathetic than most of my fellow agents. I recognize that nobody wants to have their pay cut and while many of us that make less than $30,000 a year find it difficult to be sympathetic to a work group that averages over $150,000 a year, I recognize that people tend to live up to their means and a cut in pay for anyone is a real and sincere sacrifice.

That being said, I believe that your threat to strike is myopic and self serving. I have read some of the material on the ALPA web site and in a number of places the claim is made that Delta is "Our Airline". I beg to differ. It is not only "your" airline. There are about 6000 pilots out of over 47,000 employees. It is as much my airline as it is yours and yet you hold the power to take action that will not only effect you, but 41,000 other people.

I am certain we could have a healthy debate about contracts and fairness, what you have and have not given, what the company has done or not done ad nauseam. I don't doubt that there is some validity to your position. No side can be completely right in such a matter. But the bottom line is that this is not the same industry that it was 10 years ago. 9-11, the advent of low cost carriers, changes in the dynamics of business travel and rising fuel prices, among other things, have altered the dynamics of the industry forever and an airline simply cannot sustain itself with the cost structure it was once able to. I find it difficult to believe that if you shut down our airline, the people you represent are going to be able to walk out on the street and find jobs making what that would make even if you accept Delta's concession in toto.

One line in your letter caught my attention. It is a sad footnote in Delta's history that in a business where people matter... To be blunt, people are not just pilots and as you chart a course forward, I hope you will take into consideration that there are 41,000 of us out here that your decisions will impact. 41,000 of us that have mortgages, kids to feed, cars to pay for and backs to put clothes on. We have made our own sacrifices, absorbed pay cuts and benefit reductions and we have hung in there because we believe that if we all pull together, we can turn Delta around and bring her back to the great airline she once was. Quite frankly, we are angry that 7.8% of the workforce has power over the rest of us...that 7.8% of the workforce has the capacity to send the other 92.2% of us to the unemployment line. Since it is OUR airline, perhaps all 47,000 of us should vote as to whether you strike or not.

I think I am pretty typical of most of the front line Delta employees. I made less then $30,000 last year. I have taken pay and benefit cuts to stay with Delta. Why? Because I enjoy my job, I enjoy the ability to travel and I have found Delta to be a good company to work for. But, at what I make, I don't have a cushion. I live pretty much paycheck to paycheck and I am basically up the proverbial creek if that paycheck stops, even for a short time. I would guess that most of your pilots have the means to handle a temporary period of unemployment, but most of us on the customer service side do not have that luxury. Is your union going to help me pay my rent and child support if you choose to strike and run this airline out of business?

You have complained that you believe that the company views the threat of a strike as "saber rattling" or empty threats, but I get the impression that you believe the claim that a strike would force a liquidation of the company as an idle threat as well. I have a background in business and a degree and accounting and let me assure you, these are not empty words. Delta Airlines does not have the resources to survive even a short strike. If one looks at the situation objectively, one has to conclude that the pilot's position is based either on ignorance to reality or that you simply do not care what happens to YOUR airline. Either way, it seems pretty foolish from this vantage point.

Finally, I should add that I work in special member services and spend my day talking almost exclusively to medallion level frequent fliers. I talk to between 60 and 100 people a day and I am asked multiple times each day what I think about the possibility of a strike. In all of the months that this has been going on, I have yet to ever have one passenger state that they support your position. Most are sympathetic, but state the obvious...the industry has changed and you would be foolish to strike.

I don't expect this to change your mind, or alter your position, but I felt that it was important, as you move forward, to be reminded of the responsibility you have taken upon yourself. You are not only playing with the lives of the men and women you represent, you are playing with the lives of 41,000 other people, not to mention our passengers, who have entrusted their money and plans to us in the faith that we will get them where they need to go. There is only one word that can be used for a course of action that would negatively impact so many people in such a profound way...selfish. I urge you to endeavor to find some solution to this issue short of shutting down the airline. It is simply not the right thing to do."

Regards
N160LH
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
micstatic
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:20 am

What a great letter. Well written
 
elcableguy77
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:29 am

I second that sentiment. Very well-thought out, and not done as an attack. Very good points raised, too.
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
Alitalia744
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
I received an email from DALPA today (4-11) stating that there has been no major movement in negotiations and that strike preparations are in full swing. For what it is worth.

MD88Captain - if so, thanks for the update and I look forward to seeing you as a line-cook in the near future fulfilling your long-term dream of a strike.

best of luck to the 41000 other Delta employees - you truly are exceptional in a huge vat of ordinary.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
OttoPylit
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting N160LH (Reply 2):
I recieved this letter in my email a couple days ago.... Take a sec to read it and maybe you will understand what its worth...!

I got the same email about 3 days ago, and would have deleted the names as well, for privacy reasons. I'm sure that Capt. Moak took the letter, printed it out, and wiped where the sun don't shine with it. In fact, considering that thanks to reasons well outside of my control, I may be out of a job soon, I can just print this thread a couple thousand times, and no longer will I have to buy toilet paper. LOL


MD88, here is a question that is always asked to the pilots, but never answered. Since your the die-hard want to strike guy on here(even more than Bucky and SurfDog), do you not feel any remorse of assisting in putting so many other thousands of people out of a job? If your answer is no, then you might want to consider taking on a job as Dr. Kavorkian's assistant when your out of work. And don't try to give me any crap about standing up for everyone else in the company as well. We don't pay ALPA dues and didn't ask for ALPA's support, thank you.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
elcableguy77
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:51 am

Otto, welcome to my respected users list.
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
okie73
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 6):
you not feel any remorse of assisting in putting so many other thousands of people out of a job?

you know, if the rest of the employees were that worried about their jobs, maybe they could kick in the difference between what the pilots are offering and what the company needs. I know it would suck, but in the end why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs? Rather than lose my job, I would give a little more of my pay.
 
SeeTheWorld
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:09 am

Folks - this is a negotiation tactic. If the pilots strike, ALPA will blamed and they will be ruined. This is not the late 1980s and early 1990s - a union that would be blamed for grounding one of the largest carriers in the world would never recover.

Having said that, the pilots authorizing a strike and actually striking are like black and white. It's easy to support ALPA when it's just threats, but I highly doubt more than 5% of pilots would actually strike if ALPA called for a strike. The last thing ALPA wants is a strike. They want to look tough so when the contracts are voided, they can say they gave it their all. All they are trying to do is look tough and keep their outdated jobs!

The pilots are not stupid. Starting over at $40,000 per year at Spirit, et. al. at the bottom of the seniority list and deadheading to Detroit, et. al. (and losing the house because you can't pay the mortgage) is not worth sending a message to DL's management. Put a little common sense into your thinking. The situation sucks and all the DL employees deserve better leadership on a management level, but the alternative is a disaster on an individual level (irrespective of the DL history). DALPA is full of hot air and everyone knows it, particularly the pilots. If DALPA is stupid enough to call a strike you will see more pilots cross the picket lines than you have ever seen in your life - and DALPA knows it.
 
elcableguy77
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 8):
why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs?

Pilots fly airplanes.

Striking pilots means no aircraft fly.

Aircraft sitting on the tarmac means no money is being made by the airline.

No money being made by airline means the airline goes out of business.

A shut-down airline means 47,000 people are unemployed, to include the 41,000 employees that did not have a beef with the company.

Therefore, striking pilots equal 47,000 people out of work, 41,000 of which really had no say in the matter.
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
panamair
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 8):
if the rest of the employees were that worried about their jobs, maybe they could kick in the difference between what the pilots are offering and what the company needs. I know it would suck, but in the end why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs? Rather than lose my job, I would give a little more of my pay

Because it's about FAIRNESS. And I think that is one of the many reasons why DL is sticking to its terms, more or less. The pilots are being asked to pony up their share of the cuts based on their share of the total expenses. While it is not the pilots' responsibility to ensure the survival of your jobs, it is their responsibiilty to contribute their fair share of the total savings; just about everyone else has already chipped in (and more than once, I might add).
 
StarCityFlyr
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:27 am

To: N160LH

Subject: Your Memo dated 4/4/06

OUTSTANDING memo. Your words and thoughts come together directly and completely on target!

If I am in Tampa (which I am regularly on business) I would enjoy the opportunity to buy you a cup of coffee or a beverage of your choice!

I hope that Mr. Moak reads and hedes your letter.

Happy Flying!
 
okie73
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
Because it's about FAIRNESS. And I think that is one of the many reasons why DL is sticking to its terms, more or less. The pilots are being asked to pony up their share of the cuts based on their share of the total expenses.

I think I have given enough, and I am sure you think you have given enough, but I am also sure the pilots think they have given enough.

I am also sure no matter what happens with the pilots, Delta will be back to the rest of us for more cuts.
 
elcableguy77
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Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:34 am

StarCityFlyr, I don't think he's the one that wrote the letter. He was relating the e-mail he received. But I doubt he'd mind if you bought him a cup of coffee.  Wink
Former ZW F/A | "Wisconsin 72A, contact departure, see ya."
 
MD88Captain
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:35 am

Thanks for the vitriol. I'd just like to point out that the airline will implode if just 30% of the current list refuses to work without a contract. The bottom 1/3 of the seniority list is ready to walk because they feel they have nothing to lose. They realize that they can't take another pay cut and many will be furloughed anyway. Of course the number of pilot's refusing to cross will be much higher than 30%.

This isn't a plain-vanilla job action. A 48-hr strike voids most of the DIP agreements. With DAL's available cash, even a 1 day job disruption will be crippling. Truly, Moak has his finger on the Stranglove button. BTW. I've never said once whether I support the walkout. But even if I wanted to scab, there won't be an airline to scab for. That's why the strike, if called, will have close to 100% participation. DAL pilots know that scabbing for a dying/dead airline kills their ability to find quality flying work. You may disagree, but that's the prevailing wisdom. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C . If strike=liquidation, and liquidation=no reason to scab, the strike=no reason to scab.

[Edited 2006-04-11 23:37:13]
 
FlyPNS1
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
Because it's about FAIRNESS.

Nobody said life was fair.

But if we are going to talk about fairness, is it FAIR that DL management wants to terminate the pilots pension plan and provide minimal credit? The estimated savings from terminating the pilots pension plan alone vastly exceeds what the other groups have given in cuts. Why does DL management REFUSE to recognize this savings?

The other employees could have had the same chance to negotiate with DL management. They chose to have no representation and are now at the mercy of management.

In the end, I think the company will cave and an agreement will be reached. It won't be as much as the company wants, but magically DL will be able to get by without such steep cuts.
 
Lono
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 15):
Stranglove button

Damn I wish we had one of those.....
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
DC10GUY
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:44 am

Nice/Sad letter. 41K people losing their jobs is bad. But. I hope Delta pilots strike. The health of the whole airline biz depends on it. If they do not call managements bluff ... they will lose more than just pay for all pilots and all the other labor groups too. If Delta goes out of business then that would be the best thing that could happen to all the other airlines still trying to survive. Someone has to go ... Let it be Delta.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
N160LH
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 12):
To: N160LH

Subject: Your Memo dated 4/4/06

OUTSTANDING memo. Your words and thoughts come together directly and completely on target!

If I am in Tampa (which I am regularly on business) I would enjoy the opportunity to buy you a cup of coffee or a beverage of your choice!

I hope that Mr. Moak reads and hedes your letter.

Happy Flying!

Star- I would love to accept your cup of coffee, however, I did not write this memo..! I received it from an old DL friend of mine a couple days ago in an email... I did not post the name of the writer because I did not want to advertise his name openly on A.net... He is still a current employee of mother DL and I guess you never know who you could tick off... But, I could not agree more with you on the word and thoughts of this memo...

N160LH

[Edited 2006-04-11 23:48:10]
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
rdwelch
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 8):
you know, if the rest of the employees were that worried about their jobs, maybe they could kick in the difference between what the pilots are offering and what the company needs. I know it would suck, but in the end why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs? Rather than lose my job, I would give a little more of my pay.

I can understand the premise to your suggestion, but I would venture to guess the other rank and file members would be even more hard pressed to sacrifice anymore with out getting closer to the poverty line. If I'm not mistaken, DALPA was able to get an industry leading contract, UAL+1, and would have a greater chance to absorb the cuts.

The other 41k or so DL employees didn't get an industry leading contract, and have had to take their more than fair share of cuts to their personal bottom line.

Just someone who's outside looking in.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
OttoPylit
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 8):
you know, if the rest of the employees were that worried about their jobs, maybe they could kick in the difference between what the pilots are offering and what the company needs. I know it would suck, but in the end why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs? Rather than lose my job, I would give a little more of my pay.

Thats an excellent idea. And you know what, if it wasn't for the fact that I am in a job that pays about $30,000 a year, and it has been knocked down to about 22,000 a year in pay and benefit cuts, I can barely live off that as it is. I am having to rob Peter just to pay Paul. So if it wasn't for that, I would totally agree with you. However, the argument is between DALPA and management. It wouldn't matter what anyone else "offered," it would have to agreed to by DL management and DALPA. Now, of course, DALPA could care less where the other money comes from, as long as they don't have to give it up, but DL management has told everyone else in the company that over the 3 rounds of pay cuts, and the multitude of benefit cuts since 2002, we have given enough back to the company in order to bring it through these times.


Now, compare my new salary of $22,000 dollars to a pilot who is already paid an average(according to the media) of $157,000. Now, if I were to take an even larger paycut, I would not be able to support myself or my family. Now, if a pilot making $157K takes a 30% cut, can you really say he won't be able to support his family? He may not be able to support it at the status of living that he currently enjoys, but he will still be able to do it. Now, what is the more sensible approach?



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
Indy
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:53 am

To that reservation agent trying to compare apples & oranges I ask this...

How much time and money in your lifetime did you have to invest to become a reservation agent?

If you mess up on your job how many people die as a result?

How much money in equipment are you responsible for?

When you show up late for work how much does it cost the business?

I'm sorry but the reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she doesn't have a lifetime invested in the position.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
panamair
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
But if we are going to talk about fairness, is it FAIR that DL management wants to terminate the pilots pension plan and provide minimal credit? The estimated savings from terminating the pilots pension plan alone vastly exceeds what the other groups have given in cuts. Why does DL management REFUSE to recognize this savings?

Oh c'mon, at the end of the day, you and I know that ALL of the pension plans, and not just the pilots' will most probably end up at the PBGC, even though DL hasn't publicly stated this regarding the other employee groups' plans. If this were to happen, it would effectively neutralize any argument about pilots taking any disproportionate share of the pension bomb issue. And unlike the UA employees, IIRC, all of whom got nothing extra when their pensions were dumped with the PBGC, DL is offering the pilots a $330m note - that's still $330m more than what they would have gotten from the PBGC.
 
rdwelch
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 15):
That's why the strike, if called, will have close to 100% participation. DAL pilots know that scabbing for a dying/dead airline kills their ability to find quality flying work. You may disagree, but that's the prevailing wisdom. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C . If strike=liquidation, and liquidation=no reason to scab, the strike=no reason to scab.

That's a very good point, and I even like the Algebra to go along with it. You are in a very tight spot as to what to do. Eventhough I'm with a competitor, I still don't want to see DL come crashing down. The entire episode would leave a huge void in ATL's commerce and the people who rely on DL for travel and employement.

Good luck to the employees and the airline as well. My thoughts and prayers are with you all.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
panamair
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Dc10guy (Reply 18):
If Delta goes out of business then that would be the best thing that could happen to all the other airlines still trying to survive. Someone has to go ... Let it be Delta.

The usual fallacy that the disappearance of a legacy carrier is going to solve the others' ills.... Even if DL were not around, there will be new LCCs cropping up trying to eat the majors' lunch on their key lucrative routes. And it would only be a matter of time before one or two other legacies cannot resist the temptation and starts to add capacity again...Bottom line is, each carrier has to get its own house in order and not wager its future on the disappearance of another airline!

[Edited 2006-04-12 00:04:52]
 
OttoPylit
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
To that reservation agent trying to compare apples & oranges I ask this...

How much time and money in your lifetime did you have to invest to become a reservation agent?

If you mess up on your job how many people die as a result?

How much money in equipment are you responsible for?

When you show up late for work how much does it cost the business?

I'm sorry but the reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she doesn't have a lifetime invested in the position.

Well, I don't know about a res agent, but you can ask B777-700 about that.

As for me and my position, if I mess up at my job, more than one airplane can crash and many people can die, so I have more of a responsibility than a pilot in that respect.

My "desk" is mostly a computer, so I am responsible for all of the computer systems that Delta gives me the authority to have.

Your next question doesn't make sense. When ANYONE is late to work, it costs the entire company a lot of business. Whether you are a pilot or a res agent, the comany loses money while waiting for you to show up. So if a res agent shows up late, just as much money is potentially lost as a result. But if the pilot shows up late, how much money is lost? Those people waiting for that flight aren't going anywhere, and if its in ATL, they will just pull another pilot off reserve while the original pilot better have a good explanation to the Chief pilot.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
N160LH
Posts: 264
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 15):
Thanks for the vitriol. I'd just like to point out that the airline will implode if just 30% of the current list refuses to work without a contract. The bottom 1/3 of the seniority list is ready to walk because they feel they have nothing to lose. They realize that they can't take another pay cut and many will be furloughed anyway. Of course the number of pilot's refusing to cross will be much higher than 30%.

This isn't a plain-vanilla job action. A 48-hr strike voids most of the DIP agreements. With DAL's available cash, even a 1 day job disruption will be crippling. Truly, Moak has his finger on the Stranglove button. BTW. I've never said once whether I support the walkout. But even if I wanted to scab, there won't be an airline to scab for. That's why the strike, if called, will have close to 100% participation. DAL pilots know that scabbing for a dying/dead airline kills their ability to find quality flying work. You may disagree, but that's the prevailing wisdom. If A=B, and B=C, then A=C . If strike=liquidation, and liquidation=no reason to scab, the strike=no reason to scab.

God I hope your one of the pilots that I either brake checked on push back or made wait for their crew bags...! I pray that I never have to sit in the right seat next to you..! Aviation is passion just as the Delta "family" is (or at least used to be) and if you no longer have it or enjoy it, then get the hell away from it... Because I can and will gladly take your place..!

N160LH
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
flydl2atl
Posts: 115
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
How much time and money in your lifetime did you have to invest to become a reservation agent?

Irrelevant. How much time does somebody invest to get a doctorate degree in English only to earn $36,000 at a community college.

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
If you mess up on your job how many people die as a result?

What if a school bus driver messes up? How much do they get paid?

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
I'm sorry but the reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she doesn't have a lifetime invested in the position.

No, the reservation agent isn't sympathetic to pilots who are on a murder/suicide mission. Arguments relating to how much time they spent in school, or how much money they spent on their education, or how many lives are at stake are irrelevant when there are pilots out there willing to work for less. Yet despite this, the Delta pilots demand some kind of premnium to keep up their lifestyles.

Everybody also talks about management cutbacks. Do people realize that managemnet isn't just the executives, but also a marketing manager making $45,000/yr...or a programmer making $45,000/yr. The pilots need to stop acting like mgmt isn't doing their parts.

The irony in all of this is the pilots have the MOST to lose by striking. Truly amazing!
 
goboeing
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting N160LH (Reply 27):
you no longer have it or enjoy it, then get the hell away from it... Because I can and will gladly take your place..!

And then you'd realize you're being worked to the bone for an unreasonably low pay-rate. Maybe, after a while, you'd say "Enough" and tell management to quit it or you'll go on strike.
 
rdwelch
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 29):
And then you'd realize you're being worked to the bone for an unreasonably low pay-rate. Maybe, after a while, you'd say "Enough" and tell management to quit it or you'll go on strike.

Worked to the bone? I didn't realize you all were breaking rocks on a chain gang.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
PGV
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Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Reply 15):
I've never said once whether I support the walkout.

I'm with you MD88Captain. Whether or not you support it, is your call. To be honest, I've been on a few pickets and haven't supported one yet. And it wasn't because of gate agents, rampers, and that crap. To me, a little less always came out to be better than going to RJ's and building seniority again.

I've watched your posts in other threads. You make out everything I've heard. While I don't agree on whether they will walk-out, it is getting more serious each day. There will be one hell of a meltdown if they do. But, when it comes to ALPA and negotiations, half of these arm-chair airline execs and left seat wanna-bes on this board google some shit and post like they have been doing this all their lives. Pprune and flightinfo are better boards for topics like this...people who actually can base a post on experience.
"To hell with a Ferrari...give me a Super 70!"
 
db373
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:01 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 8):
you know, if the rest of the employees were that worried about their jobs, maybe they could kick in the difference between what the pilots are offering and what the company needs. I know it would suck, but in the end why is it the pilots responsibility to ensure the survival of our jobs? Rather than lose my job, I would give a little more of my pay.



Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
I'm sorry but the reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she doesn't have a lifetime invested in the position.

The above quotes are representative of your typical upper-class individual. Here's a question. How many here would be willing to take a pay cut so that a coworker who makes $100,000.00 more than you a year doesn't have too? I'm willing to bet not many.

Put yourself in this situation now. You make $30,000.00 a year, and live from paycheck to paycheck. Your coworker lives off $130,000.00, and most likely doesn't. Your coworker is threatening to shut down the company that YOU depend on just because they don't want to take a cut in pay. How many of you would be sympathetic to this coworker? I'm willing to bet not many.

And what an arrogant statement for anyone to say CSR's should be paid much less than pilots. I hate to break this to people, but it's the flight attendants and the customer service individuals in an airline that keep the customers coming back. While the pilots may be the most important work force industry-wide, I assure you it is the frontline employees that customers and people relate with the most.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
mcdu
Posts: 1689
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 28):



Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 28):
God I hope your one of the pilots that I either brake checked on push back or made wait for their crew bags...! I pray that I never have to sit in the right seat next to you..! Aviation is passion just as the Delta "family" is (or at least used to be) and if you no longer have it or enjoy it, then get the hell away from it... Because I can and will gladly take your place..!

N160LH

160,

While you obviously have great ambitions to be an airline pilot and want a job and a company to stay in business you need to balance your thoughts. I would suggest reading "flying the line" vol I and vol II. If you want a copy send me a note and I will make sure you get them in the mail. You need to have an appreciation for the job and the work ALPA has done before you make statements that you are willing to cross a picket line. The "I'll do it for less" mantra is old and tired. If you are in your job and and someone said they would do it for less and the company let you go would you feel a bit betrayed by both the company and the individual taking your place?

Stay calm. DL and DLALPA will reach an agreement before this escalates to a strike. The airline industry is full of malox moments so don't wear yourself out. It will settle before the nuclear option is made.

I have been in this industry as a pilot since 1986. It has always been an up and down venture. Good time wage negotiations and bad time wage give backs. They all stink and they all are filled with threats.

If you live in a large metropolitan area go to the local library and see if they have the Aviation Week and Space Technology archives. Look up the March of 89, May 85 and the mid 82 issues. Review what occured during the EAL, UAL and CAL pilot strikes. Take in as much information as you can on this issue and leave the emotions behind.

Best of luck in finding a job in the future as a major airline pilot. It is wonderful job with tremendous positives and quite a few negatives. You just have to balance them to your liking. Perhaps what happens with DALPA and DAL may have a positive effect on your future in the industry.

Cheers
mcdu
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 23):
Oh c'mon, at the end of the day, you and I know that ALL of the pension plans, and not just the pilots' will most probably end up at the PBGC, even though DL hasn't publicly stated this regarding the other employee groups' plans.

Actually, it depends on what pension relief legislation passes. If enough relief passes, the non-contract plan will likely be salvaged. The pilot plan is toast no matter what.

I think many DL employees better take a look at what the pilots are fighting for. The pilots are actually fighting to save many of your jobs. If DL management has its way, a lot more DL employees are going to lose their jobs (or be rehired as Delta Connection employees) when DL brings in massive numbers of 70-79 seat RJ's. There's a lot more at stake here than pay.
 
AZFLYER84
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:38 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:59 am

Well I hope the best for DL..Since they provide service to all the places I want to go...but if strike occurs...DL is most likely done...since management said strike would be end...Let's just hope that an agreement will be reached, not letting Dl slip into airline memory lane..
 
Indy
Posts: 4958
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:13 am

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 28):
Irrelevant. How much time does somebody invest to get a doctorate degree in English only to earn $36,000 at a community college.

If you have a doctorate chances are you aren't working at a community college for $36k. If you are I'd say you have issues.

Quoting Flydl2atl (Reply 28):
What if a school bus driver messes up? How much do they get paid?

If a school bus driver messes up people can get hurt. If a pilot messes up there is a very good chance that 100+ people die.

Whether it is attractive to say it or not the pilots are the most critical part of the airline's operation. If they weren't the airlines would be dumping contracts in bankruptcy without thinking twice about it. I think if people honestly tracked down how much time and money a pilot has in his/her career they wouldn't even debate this nearly as much. A reservation agent can be trained in a matter of weeks. Pilots need many years of training at great expense. The reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she can't understand what it takes to become a pilot. Its like looking at a hospital and comparing the person that works the desk in admitting to the surgeon.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
Indy
Posts: 4958
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting Db373 (Reply 32):
The above quotes are representative of your typical upper-class individual. Here's a question. How many here would be willing to take a pay cut so that a coworker who makes $100,000.00 more than you a year doesn't have too? I'm willing to bet not many.

Hate to break the news to you but I fall in the middle-class category.

Quoting Db373 (Reply 32):
And what an arrogant statement for anyone to say CSR's should be paid much less than pilots.

Want to hear arrogant? I worked as a CSR for 4 years and I can say that while in that job we certainly weren't justified to earn as much as the highly skilled people in the company. Nobody wants to think their job is less valuable than another job but sometimes you have to face reality. A CSR job is one you can get with no great experience and with some weeks of training you are at the desk taking calls or whatever. Call it arrogant or whatever you want. The fact is the CSR position doesn't have the same value as a highly skilled position like that of a pilot.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 36):
Whether it is attractive to say it or not the pilots are the most critical part of the airline's operation

That is why the general public has a problem with the pilots, the pilots ARE A
PART of the company no more no less.

Quoting Indy (Reply 36):
If a school bus driver messes up people can get hurt. If a pilot messes up there is a very good chance that 100+ people die.

And yes he is the first one to go anyways....... so there is no value to that point.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 21):
Now, if a pilot making $157K takes a 30% cut, can you really say he won't be able to support his family?

Well Otto, there are more pilots living from pay check to pay check then you think, but I do agree even taking that cut they still would be able to support
there families to a lower standard.

Cheers,
 
skymileman
Posts: 577
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:32 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 11):
Because it's about FAIRNESS. And I think that is one of the many reasons why DL is sticking to its terms, more or less. The pilots are being asked to pony up their share of the cuts based on their share of the total expenses. While it is not the pilots' responsibility to ensure the survival of your jobs, it is their responsibiilty to contribute their fair share of the total savings; just about everyone else has already chipped in (and more than once, I might add).

Ummh, I think the 1/3 of the pilots' pay that they already gave up ought to count for something! They have given up a lot already and you know it.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 34):
I think many DL employees better take a look at what the pilots are fighting for. The pilots are actually fighting to save many of your jobs. If DL management has its way, a lot more DL employees are going to lose their jobs (or be rehired as Delta Connection employees) when DL brings in massive numbers of 70-79 seat RJ's. There's a lot more at stake here than pay.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to MD88. "Thanks, but no thanks." First of all, we don't pay ALPA dues, therefore, we aren't looking for ALPA support. We know what we know and aren't worried about anything, otherwise you would have the IAM knocking down Delta's door and holding an election. DL will be bringing in lots of E-170's, most likely, but we aren't concerned. Are there stations that have been closed to mainline DL, had DCI come in, but later return mainline flights? Sure, that has happened with EVERY airline, not just Delta. Now, how many of those stations has it happened to? Not even a handful, and they are all small cities on Delta's map. ALB, GEG, PSC, HLN, BZN, BTM, ROC, and BUF, I believe. Very few cities and not very large Delta cities.

Secondly, don't flatter yourself. You actually think the pilots are fighting for the other DL employees? No. I don't remember reading any of ALPA's demands that said anything about retaining frontline jobs, lessening their paycuts already endured, and keeping stations open to mainline. I checked through it and am pretty darn sure I didn't see it. Why would they be worried about protecting the other DL employees? As stated, those employee's aren't paying dues to the Air Line PILOT(note caps) Association, so why waste your time on their behalf. Trust me, if anything of that nature was presented to management on the pilots behalf as part of their negotiations, management would laugh in their face.

Take this to the bank, the Delta pilots aren't fighting for anyone but Delta pilots. And feel free to ask MD88, Bucky, Surfdog, or anyone else on here, and they will tell you that the rest of us folks are the least of their worries. Nice try though.

Quoting Indy (Reply 36):
If a school bus driver messes up people can get hurt. If a pilot messes up there is a very good chance that 100+ people die.

Well, can you please explain how if people only get hurt, this bus seemed to crash and kill 22 people and wounding 20 more? Obviously, people can't be killed in buses, as you say, so they must mean that they aren't really that dead? I mean, they are just dead, but not "dead" dead, right?  sarcastic 




OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
ajiggity3
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:08 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 22):
To that reservation agent trying to compare apples & oranges I ask this...

How much time and money in your lifetime did you have to invest to become a reservation agent?

If you mess up on your job how many people die as a result?

How much money in equipment are you responsible for?

When you show up late for work how much does it cost the business?

I'm sorry but the reservation agent isn't sympathetic because he/she doesn't have a lifetime invested in the position.

This is the biggest load of crap . . . sorry you are getting paid $157,000 to do something you LOVE. If you don't LOVE your job as a pilot then get out because plenty of other people would love to do that job for next to nothing. If wish I had the training to be a pilot because I would love to walk across that picket line and fly the Delta bird for free. While showing the pilots a different bird.

And also just found this link . . . at least we know they are talking.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060411/delta_pilots.html?.v=2
 
goboeing
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Ajiggity3 (Reply 41):
This is the biggest load of crap . . . sorry you are getting paid $157,000 to do something you LOVE. If you don't LOVE your job as a pilot then get out because plenty of other people would love to do that job for next to nothing.

You are delusional.


Loving the job has nothing to do with compensation. You don't cut someone's pay because they enjoy their job! What kind of rationale is that?? In ANY industry!

Please, explain to all of us, why someone who enjoys their job should be the first candidate for a paycut for that reason.

Quoting Ajiggity3 (Reply 41):
If wish I had the training to be a pilot because I would love to walk across that picket line and fly the Delta bird for free.

And now you tell us you'd be happy to be a SCAB!

Good grief. You've got some low standards.



You might think that flying a jet would be worth doing for free. Well, for a one or two-time sample, I guess it would be. But then again, most things would be. I'd like to try a lot of things that other people are paid for, just to try it out.

Let it be known that your argument that flying a jet is fun and so those who fly them should earn less because of that is just absolutely mindless, no matter which side of this whole Delta thing you're on.


Again, please explain to all of us why someone who enjoys their job should be the first candidate for a paycut for that reason.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting GoBoeing (Reply 42):
And now you tell us you'd be happy to be a SCAB!

Good grief. You've got some low standards.

Just like the NW mechanics. You say that he would be a low-standard SCAB. However, he would consider himself 2 things that you wouldn't be:


Happily Employed!  bigthumbsup 




OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
PGV
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:08 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
However, he would consider himself 2 things that you wouldn't be: Happily Employed!

By who?? If all of your worst nightmares come true he'd have a few days to get across that line. A few days to help round up all the planes over the world...and then the cash would be out. Now there's one to put on your resume.

Oh...I almost forgot the long-term benefit he would receive: a nice spot on the Master Scab List with the reading "DAL06" next to it. Try begging for a jumpseat from a captain with that.
"To hell with a Ferrari...give me a Super 70!"
 
bucky707
Posts: 959
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 6):
Since your the die-hard want to strike guy on here(even more than Bucky and SurfDog),

Whoa, I don't WANT to strike. I will strike, but I don't want too. Those are two different things.
 
ajiggity3
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:08 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 43):
However, he would consider himself 2 things that you wouldn't be:


Happily Employed!

And that is my whole point . . . if you don't enjoy your job you are going to be quite the miserable person.
 
goboeing
Posts: 2583
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Ajiggity3 (Reply 46):
And that is my whole point . . . if you don't enjoy your job you are going to be quite the miserable person.

That was NOT your whole point. Quit dodging questions.

Your point was that because this group of employees enjoys their job (or at least YOU think they do, which is quite an assumption for 5,500 people), they should accept multiple paycuts.

Explain how that makes any sense.
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting MD88Captain (Thread starter):
I received an email from DALPA today (4-11) stating that there has been no major movement in negotiations and that strike preparations are in full swing. For what it is worth.

Oh well. Looks like Jetblue will get my money in lieu of DL for my LAS trip. Even after this crap, if DL survives they lost me. B6 from here on out within the US.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Delta And DALPA

Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 40):
Not even a handful, and they are all small cities on Delta's map. ALB, GEG, PSC, HLN, BZN, BTM, ROC, and BUF, I believe. Very few cities and not very large Delta cities.

You leave out all the cities that once had mainline and have never had it restored like MDW, BTR, SHV, TUL, OMA, GRR, MDT, BIL, ABE, TOL, CAK, etc. Many of these cities have metro populations of nearly between 500K and 1million...so they aren't all small towns. Take a look at the summer schedule, YUL and MKE will lose all mainline. MSP will be down to just 2 mainline flights.

If DL gets all the RJ's they want, many more cities are toast like MOB, CAE, GSP, COS, CLE, ALB, MHT, TYS, HSV, OKC, LIT,etc. These cities only have a few mainline flights which can easily be replaced by larger RJ's. By time it's all said and done, I can easily forsee DL only having about 50-60 domestic mainline stations.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 40):
You actually think the pilots are fighting for the other DL employees? No.

You're right, I don't think the pilots are fighting for the other groups. However, the pilots fight against outsourcing is a fight all employees are engaged in. The pilots are trying to fight back (though it's probably too late), whereas the other employee groups simply roll over and get outsourced.

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