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tigerotor77w
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:35 am

RE: 747-8 Model Turning Heads

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 148):

But there is clearly demand for sub 772ER aircraft, as witnessed by the success of the A333. If the price is right, and the range is better, I would expect the 540K lbs 787-10 would find a place in the market.

I thought the 772ER outsold the A333 (not saying they're direct competitors, but that the market replacement for the 772ER-capability size is larger than that of the A333-replacement size).

I found that the there have been 428 orders placed for the 772ER (only, not including the 772, of which there have been an additional 92).

If we're comparing the A333 to the 772, then clearly the A333 has done a much better job. However, the market for replacing the 772ER is quite large as well (MD-11, A343, and 772ER are all in there), so what is Boeing's strategy to address widebodyphotog's comments?
 
widebodyphotog
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 1999 9:23 am

RE: 747-8 Model Turning Heads

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 148):
But there is clearly demand for sub 772ER aircraft, as witnessed by the success of the A333. If the price is right, and the range is better, I would expect the 540K lbs 787-10 would find a place in the market.

I hear what you are saying, but by going with a much more capable 787-10 Boeing runs the table in the market as such an aircraft would perform more economically than the A330-300/A350-900 on shorter segments and much more economically than the 777-200ER on longer routes...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 149):
Range/payload performance. Granted, putting a larger wing on the smallest of the B787 is an extreme idea. But, if Boeing were to someday develop a larger B787 wing for the heavier members of the B787 family, would it not make sense to combine that wing with a -8 size fuselage for a B787F?

The current wing is already optimized for 787 growth beyond the -8, it's one of the reasons that makes the 787-8 so great. It widens the 787-8 envelope and allows optimium performance over a wide range of segment lengths. The current wing is good for up to about 640,000lbs and that is all that's needed for future growth. A larger wing on the -8 destroys its primary operating advantage of having a very low structural weight and for that reason alone Boeing won't do it...

As far as a -8 freighter, definitely a possibility but no need for a new wing. That airframe would be very light and not needing of takeoff weights above 540,000lbs to have 5,000+ nm range with 70+ ton payloads.

Bottom line is that the current wing is oversized for the -8, but that's not a bad thing, and so allows a lot of room for future growth for the -9 and -10.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 149):
For a passenger B787-8ER, it would probably be better to keep the current wing, bump the MTOW, and perhaps add some belly tanks. How would a B787-8ER with 540,000 lbs MTOW and 3 belly tanks do on SYD-LHR nonstop?

It would be capable of doing that on a purely range/payload based analysis. As for the business case I really could not say...I would however postulate that the 787 will not be the pioneering aircraft on this route...



-widebodyphotog

[Edited 2006-04-23 00:03:31]
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: 747-8 Model Turning Heads

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 151):
I hear what you are saying, but by going with a much more capable 787-10 Boeing runs the table in the market as such an aircraft would perform more economically than the A330-300/A350-900 on shorter segments and much more economically than the 777-200ER on longer routes...

And if Boeing could do it with EIS in 2013, then perhaps that's all they should do. But if they have to wait a couple more years beyond that, maybe a 540,000 lbs -10 isn't a bad idea.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 151):
The current wing is good for up to about 640,000lbs and that is all that's needed for future growth.

Is it the undercarriage that is only good to 600,000 lbs? I thought the wing was as well, but in that case Boeing has lots of head room.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: 747-8 Model Turning Heads

Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 152):
Is it the undercarriage that is only good to 600,000 lbs? I thought the wing was as well, but in that case Boeing has lots of head room.

My understanding is that the B787 undercarriage is good to about 560,000 lbs and the wing to about 640,000 lbs. The only changes needed for B787 variants in the 560,000 to 640,000 lbs should be the addition of a two-wheel center bogey and general strengthing of the fuselage by adding additional layers of tape.

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