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flywithjohn
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FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:58 am

Since Federal Express is phasing out there 727 fleet what will likely be the replacement aircraft keeping in mind they want cheaper planes but have to full-fill demands of the cargo. We've been talking about it at work and what is the likely hood of FDX ordering new planes?
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Springbok295
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:01 am

You know the old saying, "the only plane that can replace an old DC3 is another DC3"?

Well I think the same applies to the 727
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md90fan
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:02 am

Well, they came pretty close to scooping up some ex.US 733/4 stored in the desert and converting them in freight dogs, but backed out at the last minute.  Smile
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CanadianNorth
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:26 am

I'd say converted 733s and 734s would probably be the best option, 2 pilots and 2 engines instead of 3 would save them money but by the time they find them buy them and convert them it would still cost them a bit.


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flydreamliner
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 2):
Well, they came pretty close to scooping up some ex.US 733/4 stored in the desert and converting them in freight dogs, but backed out at the last minute.

My guess is as old 733/734's like those get pushed out of pax service, they'll get popular for replacing 727s. I think ideally they'd have 757s, but seeing how in demand those are, i don't think they'll find many.
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A342
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:33 am

The 733/734 would be good freighters, but their payload doesn´t come close to a 727-200F. Perhaps they wait until NW or DL go bust, then there will be enough 757´s to convert.  Big grin
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Oykie
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting Flywithjohn (Thread starter):
Since Federal Express is phasing out there 727 fleet what will likely be the replacement aircraft keeping in mind they want cheaper planes but have to full-fill demands of the cargo. We've been talking about it at work and what is the likely hood of FDX ordering new planes?

I asked the very same question when I was new to this forum. At one point Boeing offered 737-900F, but for some reason (I believe it was acquisition cost) FedEx said no.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4):
My guess is as old 733/734's like those get pushed out of pax service, they'll get popular for replacing 727s. I think ideally they'd have 757s, but seeing how in demand those are, i don't think they'll find many.

I guess you are right. Could we see FedEx order both? The 737 lacks some of the capability of the 727. Still when I worked for DHL, they said that the 757 used just 3000 liters of fuel from CPH to OSL, while the 727 needed 9000 liters, so it will be a great improvement in fuel efficiency, and the benefit from the reduced number of crew members necesary.
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A342
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 6):
Still when I worked for DHL, they said that the 757 used just 3000 liters of fuel from CPH to OSL, while the 727 needed 9000 liters

That 9000 liter figure for the 727 can´t be right. Maybe they meant the 757 burned 3000 liters while the 727 was fueled with 9000 liters ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Oykie
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
That 9000 liter figure for the 727 can´t be right. Maybe they meant the 757 burned 3000 liters while the 727 was fueled with 9000 liters ?

I am not sure I follow you? The argument was that the 757 uses 1/3 of the fuel consumption of the 727. If you can show me that the difference is less I'd be glad to know. Until then I will wait to provide the information I got on the A300  Wink
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flywithjohn
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:22 am

I'm not sure myself. A lot of points have been brought up like buying new planes from Boeing. But they rather convert bone yards because it's cheaper. The 737 is better because it's 2 2 over 3 3. They won't replace the 727 with more 727 they are getting rid of them. Down to 5 100s as of thursday morning. Granted 200s 20ft longer and auto pressure. Still getting rid of them. It's still hard to find what will replace them. 757 could work but there ain't enough of them and demands to high to make it work. So question is what's going to suitable replacement in cost and load?
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yyz717
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting Flywithjohn (Reply 9):
Granted 200s 20ft longer and auto pressure. Still getting rid of them. It's still hard to find what will replace them.

Fedex has only been retiring 721's. All procured 722's remain in service (other than 1 damaged at MEM a few years ago).

The 722 fleet is much younger than the 721 fleet. Given that Fedex has been able to withdraw the 721 fleet without a replacement suggests that no 722 replacement is needed for years.
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DeltaRules
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
The 722 fleet is much younger than the 721 fleet.

Doesn't FedEx have the last 727 built?

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yyz717
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting DeltaRules (Reply 11):
Doesn't FedEx have the last 727 built?

Yes. The last 15 722's were 722F's for Fedex all built in 83/84. Indeed, the only Boeing-built 722F's.
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Cadet57
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
Perhaps they wait until NW or DL go bust, then there will be enough 757´s to convert

 sarcastic  you just cant let it go can you..... Honestly...
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:55 am

I'll bet you see the DC-10 phased out before the 722s
 
n685fe
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:00 am

The 757 was ruled out because of the number of frames that would be available and the needed spacing for take offs would greatly delay outbound traffic. 737's were nearly chosen for the replacement, flight and maintenance were prep'ing for training when the plug was pulled for them. Airbus was pushing the A320 as a replacement also.
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yyz717
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting N685FE (Reply 15):
737's were nearly chosen for the replacement, flight and maintenance were prep'ing for training when the plug was pulled for them.

Why was the plug pulled?
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fraspotter
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:04 am

Has Airbus ever thought about offering a freighter model from the A320 family?
 
n685fe
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:07 am

A final figure could not be negotiated. FX had wanted to acquire a large group of sister ships somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 frames all at once.
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lotsamiles
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 8):
The argument was that the 757 uses 1/3 of the fuel consumption of the 727

The RB211-535E4 powered 757-200's burn about 1050 gallons per hour compared to about 1450 gallons per hour for a typical 727-200. Therefore, the 757 burns about 1/3 less fuel rather the 1/3 of the fuel. With fuel at $2/gallon that still adds up to big savings, not to mention the savings on crew and maintenance.

As mentioned, Fedex needs many frames and right now this is not available unless they go in and cut a deal with a major operator for a fleet. Unlikely in the short term given the continued popularity of the 757 with the passenger operators.

However, I don't see them going with 737's due to the major reduction in payload and volume that they would face compared to the 727-200's. You would need a whole lot more 737's than the current fleet of 727's to have the same lift. That would cost a lot more in up front acquisition as well as ongoing operations.

With the Airbus conversions still out a few years the most likely scenario is continued operation of the 727-200's for another 3-5 years. By then perhaps they can get a fleet of 757 or Airbuses.

Buying new narrow body freighters is very unlikely due to the much higher capital cost, roughly 4-5 times that of converting use aircraft. With the low hours that they fly the narrow bodies it they cannot justify the cost of new aircraft. This really only works for high utilization aircraft such as long haul wide bodies.

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yyz717
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:46 am

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 19):
However, I don't see them going with 737's due to the major reduction in payload and volume that they would face compared to the 727-200's. You would need a whole lot more 737's than the current fleet of 727's to have the same lift. That would cost a lot more in up front acquisition as well as ongoing operations.

Would'nt the 733 and 734 roughly match the capacity of the 721 & 722 respectively?
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 14):
I'll bet you see the DC-10 phased out before the 722s

Not if some are MD-10s, which have the MD-11 EFIS cockpit retrofitted by Boeing. Those could go on longer than the DC-10s with the original flightdeck.

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 19):
With the Airbus conversions still out a few years the most likely scenario is continued operation of the 727-200's for another 3-5 years. By then perhaps they can get a fleet of 757 or Airbuses.

I tend to agree on that. Either FX waits until there are more 752s on the open market or they could become the launch customer for the A320F. With the wider cabin it has, I'm sure FX will be looking into the A320F for their operations.
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lotsamiles
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 20):
Would'nt the 733 and 734 roughly match the capacity of the 721 & 722 respectively?

The 733SF carries about 20T and 8.5 pallet positions, the 734SF is 22.5T and 9.5 pallet positions. Given Fedex demi's (1/2 a standard pallet) that's 17 and 19 demi's, respectively.

The 721F carries about 20T with 9 pallet positions, a good match to the 733SF. However, the 722F carries 29T with 12 pallet positions (24 demis).

So, for Fedex with all those 722F's they give us too much lift and volume going with 737's.

Still, Fedex could end up with 737's if they can buy the aircraft cheap enough and nothing better is available in the quantity they need.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
baw2198
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:15 am

Has fedex looked into putting a whole new engine on the 72's ?
example, retrofitting a BR715 to the frames?
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lotsamiles
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Baw2198 (Reply 23):
Has fedex looked into putting a whole new engine on the 72's ?
example, retrofitting a BR715 to the frames?

Fedex is expert in analyzing fleet development. I would imagine that they have concidered it at some point. However, new engines are very expensive and I can't see how three new engines (and likely a new cockpit) would compare favorably to buying 15 year old aircraft for conversion that come with newer generation engines and can be pickup up for under $10M each. Further, if they re-engine the 727's they would also be faced with continued maintenance of very old airframes (notwithstanding the latest 722F's) that need a lot of TLC.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 21):
Not if some are MD-10s, which have the MD-11 EFIS cockpit retrofitted by Boeing. Those could go on longer than the DC-10s with the original flightdeck.

As I said, the DC-10s are quickly becoming history. The MD-10 is part of the MD-11 sched and bidpack. The DC-10 stands alone and it's numbers are dwindling. Every month Dc-10 cities are added to the MD-11/10 bidpack and the DC-10 bidpack shrinks.
 
FedEx
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:24 am

To make a long story short, even we don't know what will replace the 727-200's as of yet. I understand we have a short list which comprises of the two obvious choices as front runners, the 737 and the 757. Boeing pitched us the 757 as a last ditch effort in keeping the line open but it was turned down. I have heard that they offered a pretty sweet deal. I would love to have been a "fly on the wall" during those meetings, or at least know someone who could tell me the reasons that the 757 was not chosen.
 
warreng24
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:13 am

When NWA retires the last DC-9, the on board equipment will be shipped out of MHV on a FedEx 722.  duck 
 
flydreamliner
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
NW or DL go bust, then there will be enough 757´s to convert.

And you don't think another airline will buy them up and press them into pax service - willing to pay top dollar?

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 17):
Has Airbus ever thought about offering a freighter model from the A320 family?

Doesn't really do much better for payload than 737, and they've been producing as fast as they possibly could for years, they've had no reason to.

Quoting Baw2198 (Reply 23):
Has fedex looked into putting a whole new engine on the 72's ?
example, retrofitting a BR715 to the frames?

My guess is the frames are getting close to their max number of cycles, and re-engining is expensive. Also, a new plane would get rid of the #3 seat.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
isitsafenow
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 27):
When NWA retires the last DC-9, the on board equipment will be shipped out of MHV on a FedEx 722.

I agree. The Fed EX three holers get about two cycles a day compared with 3 to 6 with the commercial carriers. Life as a Fed Ex bird can go another 15-20 years.
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n685fe
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:19 pm

FX has several years to decide, the 722 will be around until aprox 2015. At the moment, narrow body lift is not at a critical point. That may change in four to five years, at which point I would think that a decision would have been made.
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heathrow
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:06 pm

I love the 727. I think they should stick with it. I still love the UPS DC8 Big grin
 
scottieprecord
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:32 pm

RE: Fed Ex 727 Replacement? (by MissedApproach Jun 2 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2146210
FedEx 727 Future (by Fedex Aug 26 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2295303

Here are two threads from last summer about FX B727 replacement... similar to what's being said here.

-Mike
 
memphis
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:39 pm

I'm quite fond of the 727 myself. Another reason that I heard for FedEx shying away from the 757 was that the 757 has a much larger foot-print, or it needs more gate space than the 727. I figure 1 757 gate for every 1.5 727 gate. There are a total of 174 a/c gates in MEM and we use just about all of em'.
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DC10GUY
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:29 pm

Some people think that domestic Fedex will be mostly wide bodies ... MD10's A300/310's... and maybe a few (50 or less) 737's by 2015ish. Fedex has bought 60 aircraft in the last 2 years. MD11's and Airbuses. I'm still hoping for the 757.
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Oykie
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 19):
The RB211-535E4 powered 757-200's burn about 1050 gallons per hour compared to about 1450 gallons per hour for a typical 727-200. Therefore, the 757 burns about 1/3 less fuel rather the 1/3 of the fuel. With fuel at $2/gallon that still adds up to big savings, not to mention the savings on crew and maintenance.

That sounds reasonable. I will take this up with my former supervisor. I might remember incorrectly.

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 19):
However, I don't see them going with 737's due to the major reduction in payload and volume that they would face compared to the 727-200's. You would need a whole lot more 737's than the current fleet of 727's to have the same lift. That would cost a lot more in up front acquisition as well as ongoing operations.

The 737-900F would make sense as a 722 replacement. UPS has a high utilization of their planes, and they buy new one. How come FedEx has less utilization and thereby an older airplane family?
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fdxgirl
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:13 pm

I heard a strong rumor that the airbus A310-324 was trying to be filtered in the 727 routes. Maybe going for a bigger Airbus fleet.
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting Fdxgirl (Reply 36):
I heard a strong rumor that the airbus A310-324 was trying to be filtered in the 727 routes. Maybe going for a bigger Airbus fleet.

Here in GRR for example, we used to be daily weekday 2X-MEM 1X-IND 722F, now all three flights are almost always A310, with an occasional 722F on lighter days or a rare A306 once in awhile.
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tockeyhockey
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:31 pm

a wild guess, but wouldn't it be great if fedex started buying up AA's mad-dogs and converting them? there's a HUGE supply!
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 29):
The Fed EX three holers get about two cycles a day compared with 3 to 6 with the commercial carriers

Where did you get that from? If they are only doing 1 leg out and 1 back I may down bid back to the 72! LOL !! Actually, there are a lot more 2 leg pairings than yrs. ago when I remember doing 3 out and 2 back every night.
There are a number of 3 leg out/back in the am and again in the pm.

Quoting Oykie (Reply 35):
UPS has a high utilization of their planes, and they buy new one. How come FedEx has less utilization and thereby an older airplane family

What? First of all UPS flies "old" 727s, 747s, and even some "old" MD-11s. They have a very varied fleet and maybe some UPS pilot here can expand on training restictions(to prevent a/c jumping), etc. Fedex, like UPS, has continued to make updated improvements to the "old" jets over the years. I can't see how Fedex could get anymore utilization from the jets than they do now. In fact, just because they're constantly in the air maint. gets to a nightmare. I guess you'd have to see it understand it. Keep in mind that when I fly say MEM-CDG I will get off the jet and go to the hotel but that jet will turn in about 2 hrs to any number of cities and like the Eveready Bunnie they just keep going and going and...
 
deputydawghere
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 5):
Perhaps they wait until NW or DL go bust, then there will be enough 757´s to convert.

Hate to disappoint you bud, but Delta's in no way, shape or form going to go broke. If anything, they're going to come out of their current situation stonger.
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avconsultant
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 29):
I agree. The Fed EX three holers get about two cycles a day compared with 3 to 6 with the commercial carriers. Life as a Fed Ex bird can go another 15-20 years.
safe



Quoting N685FE (Reply 30):
FX has several years to decide, the 722 will be around until aprox 2015. At the moment, narrow body lift is not at a critical point. That may change in four to five years, at which point I would think that a decision would have been made.

Excellent point on cycles. FE has a lot of life left in their 727 fleet. FE is the operator sponsor on all "Boeing 727 Conferences" (727 Subject Matter Experts) . FE recently issued a request for proposal for a heavy maintenance agreement for 727's for 12 years. In 12 yrs, I'm sure FE will operate fewer 727; however, they will not be leaving the property anytime soon.

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 37):
Here in GRR for example, we used to be daily weekday 2X-MEM 1X-IND 722F, now all three flights are almost always A310, with an occasional 722F on lighter days or a rare A306 once in awhile.

I would not view this move as a fleet replacement. In addition to Western Michigan growing, FedEx Ground has started shipping heavier "customer critical" freight on the system. Where as the Airbus makes a great platform for these shipments.

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 38):
a wild guess, but wouldn't it be great if fedex started buying up AA's mad-dogs and converting them? there's a HUGE supply!

The MD-80 family would only be suitable for parcels instead of heavy cargo. FE & UPS look for an aircraft to fill both roles. From what I understand the DC-9/MD-80 family requires a special pallet (smaller). I read on a previous thread, the MD-80 cannot support a cargo door and this was a decision agreed upon by MD duriing the design phase to reduce weight and cost. Just imagine the numbe of MD-80's to be moved to the desert in the next 8-15 yrs.
 
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Revelation
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:46 pm

Very interesting thread.

One thing to remember is there were 1000 757s manufactured, and they will eventually all roll out of passenger service at some point in time.

I imagine some will roll out when Y1 comes to market, which is supposed to be around 2012. If FX is planning to keep 727-200 till 2015 or so, that could work out OK.

I'm sure someone at FX is thinking about this all the time. As said above, B757 uses 1/3 less fuel, has 1/3 less engines and 1/3 less crew members than B727. That must be very appealing to the fleet planners.

It seems FX is doing a good job of recycling A300/A310 airframes as they come available. How much mission overlap is there between A300/A310 and B757 in FX's network?

Could we see B727's misson get split between A300/A310 and B737, and B757 never enter the FX fleet?
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atct
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:16 am

I see FedEx replacing the 722 with A310's. There are plenty that are getting sent to the yard, and FedEx has been known to pick em up and convert em. Its bigger than the 722, but probably has similar operating costs (with the xtra crewmember, fuel efficiency of the 722).

ATCT
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isitsafenow
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 39):
Where did you get that from?

Easy....at FNT, FEDEX has a mini hub with a couple and sometimes three three holers on the deck. Those planes sit there quite a while before being rotated out at night..One goes around 10 30pm and I'm not sure what time the other leave.
At LAN you have the same setup except it's OOPSS (UPS) instead.
The three birds either 727 or 757, are there all day into the early night.
Cyles have to be low compared to commercial use.
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RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:04 am

I think they would replace their large 727 fleet with a mix of 737-300s/400s and older Pratt Powered 757-200s.

The 737-300s and 737-400s are becoming available now, in the next few years the oldest Pratt powered 757s should becoming available.
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CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2510
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 45):
I think they would replace their large 727 fleet with a mix of 737-300s/400s and older Pratt Powered 757-200s

I know it's fun to present hypothetical ideas about what they should or would do BUT as I posted a few months ago Fedex DID have some 737s a long time ago and they didn't last long. Now the 737 rumor has been hot and cold here at Fedex for years and what ever they decide to replace the 727 with will be a jet that will meet their demands for a number of reasons and it ain't just money. This month should be the beginning of the EFB(using LIDO) installations in the MD-11/10 a/c and yes the 727 is actually on the list at the end. Whether it makes it or not who knows but the plans are there. There's an old saying here that goes "When it's purple and red, on the ramp and I have a class date, I'll believe it".
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 13):
you just cant let it go can you..... Honestly...



Quoting Deputydawghere (Reply 40):
Hate to disappoint you bud, but Delta's in no way, shape or form going to go broke. If anything, they're going to come out of their current situation stonger.

Cadet57, This is the first time I make such a comment, so I wonder what "you just can´t let it go" should mean ?

Second, maybe you didn´t notice the smile behind the sentence. In no way I meant this for real.

Third, Deputydawghere, I won´t be disappointed at all if DL continues to exist. The more airlines, the more competition, which is great for everybody.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 28):
And you don't think another airline will buy them up and press them into pax service - willing to pay top dollar?

Few pax airlines will pay top dollars for them. I don´t know how old they are, but demand for freight 757s is higher than for pax aircraft.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
timeair
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 1:41 am

RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:44 am

Rumour has it they want all of AC's DH8-100's (63), but this definitely wont replace the 3 holers!
You can't get there from here.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2510
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: FedEx Replacing 727 With?

Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 44):
Easy....at FNT, FEDEX has a mini hub with a couple and sometimes three three holers on the deck. Those planes sit there quite a while before being rotated out at night..One goes around 10 30pm and I'm not sure what time the other leave.

Hey, I'm cool brother, I'm just saying that you don't know where that jet has come from or will go later. It probably isn't the same one coming back. That's all..CC

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