People Stop Asking About Jumpseating!

SkyexRamper · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:17 am

I sure wish people would stop starting threads asking about how to ride in the jumpseat or see the cockpit in flight. The big answer is NO! Not in europe and no way in heck in the US. Airlines have instituted high security policies regarding that matter. No one will be allowed in the cockpit once a flight is underway unless you are a company flight attendant, company mechanic, company dispatcher, company pilot or FAA/JAA. In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore. If you're not in one of the mentioned positions with that company, there's not a chance you'll see the flightdeck unless you're shutdown and at a gate.

Ralgha · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore

Bzzzz! Pilots airlines who are an express carrier can ride in the jumpseat of mainline and other express carriers for that mainline, and the mainline pilots can ride in the jumpseat of the express carriers.

Additionally, any pilot of any US airline who is in CASS can ride in the jumpseat of any other US airline who is in CASS.

EMBQA · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:26 am

AAah, were did this come from..? I agree this question gets beaten to death on A.net, but I don't think it's been asked for a while. The answer to who is allowed can be found in FAR 121.547. Black and white... no questions asked.......and this is not new post 9-11. This FAR dates back to the late 1960's early 1970's.

[Edited 2006-04-29 03:38:44]

werdywerd · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:34 am

Let's put an end to all of this mis-information such as " In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore."

Sec. 121.547 - Admission to flight deck.

(a) No person may admit any person to the flight deck of an aircraft unless the person being admitted is --

(1) A crewmember;

(2) An FAA air carrier inspector, or an authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, who is performing official duties;

(3) Any person who --

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and

(ii) Is an employee of --

(A) The United States, or

(B) A part 119 certificate holder and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation; or

(C) An aeronautical enterprise certificated by the Administrator and whose duties are such that admission to the flightdeck is necessary or advantageous for safe operation.

(4) Any person who has the permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder and the Administrator. Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flightdeck in the interests of safety.

Paragraph (a)(2) of this section does not limit the emergency authority of the pilot in command to exclude any person from the flight deck in the interests of safety.

(b) For the purposes of paragraph (a)(3) of this section, employees of the United States who deal responsibly with matters relating to safety and employees of the certificate holder whose efficiency would be increased by familiarity with flight conditions, may be admitted by the certificate holder. However, the certificate holder may not admit employees of traffic, sales, or other departments that are not directly related to flight operations, unless they are eligible under paragraph (a)(4) of this section.

(c) No person may admit any person to the flight deck unless there is a seat available for his use in the passenger compartment, except --

(1) An FAA air carrier inspector or an authorized representative of the Administrator or National Transportation Safety Board who is checking or observing flight operations;

(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;

(3) A certificated airman employed by the certificate holder whose duties require an airman certificate;

(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;

(5) An employee of the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft whose duty is directly related to the conduct or planning of flight operations or the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by a responsible supervisor, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority; and

(6) A technical representative of the manufacturer of the aircraft or its components whose duties are directly related to the in-flight monitoring of aircraft equipment or operating procedures, if his presence on the flightdeck is necessary to perform his duties and he has been authorized in writing by the Administrator and by a responsible supervisor of the operations department of the part 119 certificate holder, listed in the Operations Manual as having that authority.

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part121-547-FAR.shtml

PDF from FAA Website:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...rs/8400/media/volume1/1_004_04.pdf

werdywerd · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:39 am

So take part 3 (i) and (ii) from above.

(3) Any person who --

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and

(ii) Is an employee of --

I personally have gotten WRITTEN permission from the Chief pilot as well as the Captain of the aircraft to gain access to the flight deck when it was a business trip and I needed to get from point A to Point B no matter what. This has happened to me twice when the flight was full and the FA jumpseats were taken. I Never had a problem with it and it was 100% legal. It Not impossible as long as you are an employee with proper documentation and approval from all parties.

[Edited 2006-04-29 03:39:54]

modesto2 · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:47 am

I'd like to echo Ralgha regarding CASS airlines. Theoretically, airline pilots who fly for CASS-listed airlines are permitted to ride in the cockpit jumpseat of other airlines.

Shamrock_747 · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Not in europe

Not quite true!

We're Nuts · Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:47 pm

Bottom line, if you have to ask in an Internet forum about jumpseat access, you probably don't have it!

bristolflyer · Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
If you're not in one of the mentioned positions with that company, there's not a chance you'll see the flightdeck unless you're shutdown and at a gate.

Are you in one of these mentioned positions?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
but I don't think it's been asked for a while

I'm beginning to think this is a praise

type of thread.

BF

greasespot · Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:07 pm

Umm there are many cases where people have been able to jump seat in europe and other countries...The FAA is clear.....but it is not so black and white in other countries...NOt everyone follows what the FAA does blindly.

Fine you cannot jump seat in the USA....However there are many members in other parts of the world where they still can and do.....This is not a USA site contrary to what you might think..

I have personally rode in the jump seat here in Canada....Even when I was not travelling on company business but for vacation....

GS

andrewuber · Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore.

Hogwash. You've obviously never heard of CASS.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 8):
Bottom line, if you have to ask in an Internet forum about jumpseat access, you probably don't have it!

Very true!

ikramerica · Sat Apr 29, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 2):
but I don't think it's been asked for a while.

Is today soon enough? It may have been deleted, but someone was asking earlier today.

Alex22 · Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:31 pm

Hi all,

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
The big answer is NO! Not in europe

Which is totally wrong. Living in Europe I can tell you that if you ask the right person you have a chance to jumpseat. Even if you're not working in the aviation comunity or anything. I'm not going to give you the name but there are quiet a few (large and small) companies where the pilot will let you do it.

Just an example. A friend had her 20th birthday 2 years ago the same day she was flying from Greece to Switzerland... Whitout asking (!! ) (her friend just had told the F/A about the birthday) she did the entire flight (take-off and landing too) in the cockpit... She said that it was one of the best experience in her life...

So before making such statement you should try to know your subject. I'm not going to speak about USA 'cause I don't know the exact situation as I only travel about 2-3 times a year in the US... and never asked about jumpseating...

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 3):
Not all of the world operates in a state of fear driven paranoia like we do in the US.

EXACTLY !!!

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 3):
I say keep asking. (maybe not in the US) Keep taking pictures. Keep listening to those scanners. Keep hanging out at the airport. Get that window seat at Garfunkels in Gatwick, even if you only get a cup of tea.

True again... I can't agree more....

Cheers and happy jumpseating to all !!
Wink

Alex

SCEagle · Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:38 pm

Hey... I'm an employee of the United States... does that mean if I get the pilot's permission I can fly up there?
(seriously)

Leezyjet · Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:02 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
The big answer is NO! Not in europe

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
If you're not in one of the mentioned positions with that company, there's not a chance you'll see the flightdeck unless you're shutdown and at a gate.

I've not read so much mis guided ill informed rubbish on here since Pomnath was banned. With a rant like that I'm sensing a bit of jelousy maybe at not being able to ride j/seat ??.

In the land of the sh!t scared and paranoid you might not be allowed to do it, but the rest of the world does not live in the same fear as you do, and it is actually still allowed elsewhere. You could always join the other 5% of your countrymen and get a passport and go see the REAL world and grab a few j/seat flights along the way.

Granted, not all countries/airlines allow it, but there are still quite a few who do. Thats why it's still best to ask, or even try writing to the chief pilot explaining who you are and what you would like to do.

Smile

pilotaydin · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Not in europe

Yes in Europe...we have people visit the Flight deck all the time, whether it be curious people who wish to take pics, or relatives or friends...

And why are you trying to restrict people? if they want to start a thread, they can start a thread, if you don't want to read it, that's fine, but they don't have to post to your liking, leave that to mods or people in charge of detecting repetition.

nkops · Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore.

Wrong.... any pilot that is a part 121 carrier AND gets approved thru the CASS system (their airline must be a member of CASS) can ride in the cockpit j/s. We allow it only if there is no seat avaliable in the cabin.

HAWK21M · Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:01 pm

Def not out here.Unless you are a Licenced personnell working for that Airline.
regds
MEL

GrinddalSK340 · Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):

WHAT THE HECK ARE U ON ABOUT.... My dad is a Chief engineer at sas.. But I get to Ride Jumpseats Quite often ??

Spruit · Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
I sure wish people would stop starting threads asking about how to ride in the jumpseat or see the cockpit in flight

Ya know what I wish, people like you wouldn't start threads like this!

People ask questions because they don't know or can't find the answer, they are interested in the topic, they ask and have a right to get a response in a polite and unoffensive manner.

If you don't like people asking the questions, don't read the forum, because, surely that's what we come here for????

UAXDXer · Sat Apr 29, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Modesto2 (Reply 6):
I'd like to echo Ralgha regarding CASS airlines. Theoretically, airline pilots who fly for CASS-listed airlines are permitted to ride in the cockpit jumpseat of other airlines.

Pilots are not the only ones who are included in CASS. Dispatchers and Mechanics (I believe) are a part of CASS.

eddieho · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:00 am

During the Air France 358 plane crash last summer in Toronto, there was a passenger in the jumpseat because the flight was full.

The media did not take it positively.

LH417AF025 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:12 am

well... if we are on a "lets point out what shouldn't be posted mood" i sure wish people would stop posting in this forum with questions about what the loads are on their flight for a certain day, and also what the service is like on certain airlines.... i believe that is why we have a trip reports forum.....

apodino · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:13 am

I will say these threads have officially passed A vs B, Wright Amendment, and Northwest DC-9 replacements as the most common and annoying threads out there.

S12PPL · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 23):
i believe that is why we have a trip reports forum.....

Wouldn't the TR forum be the wrong place to ask what loads will be? I mean..after all...technically you havn't flown the flight yet, so you aren't reporting anything. I agree people should just search the TR forum for in flight service questions...

OHLHD · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Not in europe and no way

That is not true!

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
no way in heck in the US

I am not well infoed about US Airlines but I think that is possible.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 24):
I will say these threads have officially passed A vs B, Wright Amendment, and Northwest DC-9 replacements as the most common and annoying threads out there.

Let´s add the " who will take RG´s planes when they go down" into the list as well as the ever popular " why are AF planes so dirty?"

Big grin

leothedog · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Spruit (Reply 20):
Ya know what I wish, people like you wouldn't start threads like this!

LOL...Too Funny!

Seriously, How can I get access to a jumpseat on a flight?

LeonB1985 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:55 am

I know for a fact that it still happens within Europe, so I too disagree with Skyexramper. What he says may be well be true for the USA, but that doesn't mean it's the case globally!

TropicBird · Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:57 am

Can somebody please clarify how per the FAR listed above, a pilot from another carrier is authorized to jumpseat? Please keep in mind they are not "crewmembers" as defined by the FAR 1.1. The actual language is listed below.

"Crewmember means a person assigned to perform duty in an aircraft during flight time".

Reading the definition above and the regulation below, jumpseating pilots from another carrier who are "commuting" would not and cannot be performing any duties over a specific trip as defined by 121.547 (c) (4). So under what part of the regulation are they authorized to jumpseat?

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 4):
(4) A certificated airman employed by another part 119 certificate holder whose duties with that part 119 certificate holder require an airman certificate and who is authorized by the part 119 certificate holder operating the aircraft to make specific trips over a route;

airbelgium · Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 4):
(2) An air traffic controller who is authorized by the Administrator to observe ATC procedures;

I have been in the cockpit on many flights, even in the past 18 months. And although I am an air traffic controller, all these flights were for pleasure. It just depends on the captain I guess. I must admit it is almost impossible on US carriers. The best I got was on NW where I was allowed to stay until we were ready for pushback. Even though there was an FAA inspector on board who said he didn't mind if the captian allowed me in the cockpit, according to internal procedures it was not allowed (they even checked the manual) and they were very sorry about it themselves

Ralgha · Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 29):
So under what part of the regulation are they authorized to jumpseat?

Pilots in the jumpseat are considered crewmembers regardless of what company they work for or why they are hitching the ride.

Thorben · Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 15):
In the land of the sh!t scared and paranoid you might not be allowed to do it, but the rest of the world does not live in the same fear as you do, and it is actually still allowed elsewhere. You could always join the other 5% of your countrymen and get a passport and go see the REAL world and grab a few j/seat flights along the way.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 16):
Yes in Europe...we have people visit the Flight deck all the time, whether it be curious people who wish to take pics, or relatives or friends...

Who do you mean with "we...in Europe"?

Quoting Spruit (Reply 20):
Ya know what I wish, people like you wouldn't start threads like this!

I think the whole thread is pretty useless and should be removed.

airbazar · Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
I sure wish people would stop starting threads asking about how to ride in the jumpseat or see the cockpit in flight. The big answer is NO!

As long as misinformed, know it all, people like you keep giving out bad information, others will continue to ask. There is absolutely no law that forbids cockpit visits in flight, in Europe. I really wish people like you would stop starting threads like this, contributing to the misinformation.

bayareapilot · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Eddieho (Reply 21):
During the Air France 358 plane crash last summer in Toronto, there was a passenger in the jumpseat because the flight was full.

The media did not take it positively.

It was the jumpseat passenger who told them to land in a thunderstorm?

tjc2 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 7):
Bottom line, if you have to ask in an Internet forum about jumpseat access, you probably don't have it!

True

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 14):
You could always join the other 5% of your

That's quite harsh, i think it is more around 14%! Big grin

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
I think the whole thread is pretty useless and should be removed.

Not unless you care about CASS and point x.x.x of paragraph x.x.x!

I have jumpseated into Auckland, and visited the flight deck on many HKG - LHR flights. Pre 9/11 granted, but i reckon with the right approach it could be done again. Gotta fly tho...

cainanuk · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:33 am

Funny...

I am NOT a pilot...

I am not a DISPATCHER...

Not EVEN a mechanic...

Nope, I am just a plain old CSA

BUT....

I rode LHR-MAN in the jumpseat TWICE in the last month because the cabin was full and I was on duty travel, so I reckon that the thread starter is full of crap.

SNfreak · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:34 am

It's so funny to read these kind of threads Smile

JAA states that the PIC has the final word
Here in Europe a lot of carriers allow flight deck visits
It's good publicity to btw
And why not ?
Do you really think a cockpit door will stop someone with really bad intentions ??
Ow yeah, All my flights in the last 2 years I was or on the jumpseat or in business class
Talk to the right people and you'll get it
Just being friendly and interested helps a lot aswel Wink

wdleiser · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
Not in europe

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
No one will be allowed in the cockpit once a flight is underway unless you are a company flight attendant, company mechanic, company dispatcher, company pilot or FAA/JAA

What the hell are you talking about. I am neither of those. Yet I have done it in the past 6 months, taking off and landing in Europe. I did not fly the whole flight in the flightdeck, but I did the fun parts.

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore

Last month I saw a FedEx 727 pilot fly jumpseat on a CO flight from PHX to IAH.

Wrong again.

[Edited 2006-04-29 21:40:16]

a3xx900 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:39 am

I remember Lufthansa sold a product which (I think) was called "touch and go". You could buy a ticket for two domestic roundtrip flights in one day in the cockpit which could also include equipment/crew change.
I wish they still did that Sad

planespotting · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 30):
Pilots in the jumpseat are considered crewmembers regardless of what company they work for or why they are hitching the ride.

Anyone who is in the cockpit during a flight is considered a crew member, regardless of their title or position, and should take that very seriously.

AA777223 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Werdywerd (Reply 3):
3) Any person who --

(i) Has permission of the pilot in command, an appropriate management official of the part 119 certificate holder, and the Administrator; and

(ii) Is an employee of --

(A) The United States, or

All you have to be is an employee of the United States?! Well hell I guess I need to go apply for a janitorial position at my local federal building and I'm in! j/k, I think that just goes to show you, that these rules are subject to interpretation.

JBirdAV8r · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 40):
All you have to be is an employee of the United States?! Well hell I guess I need to go apply for a janitorial position at my local federal building and I'm in! j/k, I think that just goes to show you, that these rules are subject to interpretation.

You missed a pretty big Roman numeral there before the US line... sarcastic

NZAA · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:14 am

How does Sam Chui (the photographer) do it then? you see lots of pictures in the cockpit that are his.

MUCFlieger · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:18 am

In summer 2005 I flew MUC-BCN on LH with a friend of mine. He doesn´t work for LH, but his sister does and she provided him with some nonrev employee ticket. He was allowed to ride the jump seat on the first leg.

EMBQA · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:26 am

Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 35):
rode LHR-MAN in the jumpseat TWICE in the last month because the cabin was full and I was on duty travel, so I reckon that the thread starter is full of crap.

No, you just didn't get reported or caught.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 7):
Bottom line, if you have to ask in an Internet forum about jumpseat access, you probably don't have it!

That about as simple as you can say it.

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore.

A lot of that is actually agreement between each of the airlines pilot groups. You JS on us, we can JS on you. I saw it all the time when I was with an airline. As a mechanic I'd JS all the time. FAR 121.547 is written that Mechs can only be up there on company business and to observe the flight..not as a joy ride.. but that got streached all the time. Most times the crews liked that we were up there as they could take more bags as it moved the weight moment forward.

I have to just chuckle at this thread again. This one question is the most asked on A.net and the answer has never changed or will never change. In the US and most of the world non-airline employees are not allowed in the cockpit during flight. Even the list of airline employees allowed can be counted on one hand. A very limited number of Gov't employees can, and even then at the Capt's discression. Now, there have been some reported cases in Europe of A.net members getting a JS ride, but those are very rare. All you can do is ask, but be ready for a 99.998% chance of hearing NO.

pilotaydin · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 31):
Who do you mean with "we...in Europe"?

Unfortunately, someone strikes again with their political axe....

as far as I am concerned, WE fly in European airspace, WE are part of Eurocontrol, WE are networked to most major ATC centers in Europe. WE are a part of the JAA, and finally WE equip our aircraft based on JAA and EUROPEAN requirements, so I think it's safe to say WE fly in Europe.

Molykote · Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Thread starter):
I sure wish people would stop starting threads asking about how to ride in the jumpseat or see the cockpit in flight. The big answer is NO! Not in europe and no way in heck in the US. Airlines have instituted high security policies regarding that matter. No one will be allowed in the cockpit once a flight is underway unless you are a company flight attendant, company mechanic, company dispatcher, company pilot or FAA/JAA. In the past airline pilots from other carriers use to be allowed to ride in a jumpseat, not anymore. If you're not in one of the mentioned positions with that company, there's not a chance you'll see the flightdeck unless you're shutdown and at a gate.

I'm an engineer with a "golden ticket" (jumpseat card). I only mention this because I don't fit any of the profiles mentioned above.

LHR777 · Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Cainanuk (Reply 35):
I am just a plain old CSA

Hehehe...me too! In the last 12 months, I've flown cockpit jumpseat on BA YYZ-LHR, EK LHR-DXB, UL CMB-LHR and LH FRA-LHR!!

Back in the 90's when I worked at American, I had an authorised FDJ trip LHR-ORD. It was the middle of winter and I still vividly remember sitting in the jumpseat on the 767-200ER (N328AA) with a headset on, looking down at the runway ahead, from around 4000ft, covered in a layer of fresh snow. A truly awesome sight!

I also did FDJ on UL, flying LHR-DXB, on an L1011-500. That was great, a really spacious cockpit on the L1011 too. STN-FRA in the cockpit was achieved on the way home from that trip, on a KLM-UK F100.

Amazonphil · Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:44 am

I was personally invited by the captain while sitting coach on a BOG-LET this month on AeroRepublica. I work for a USA carrier that is now in cohutes with P5.
Cheers

amazonphil

Amazonphil · Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:45 am

oops! personally invited to the FLIGHT DECK that is

amazonphil

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