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FCKC
Topic Author
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Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:06 am

Here is what the CEO of Gecas has declared.

"I have a gut feeling that Airbus will unveil a significantly redone A350 by the Farnborough Air Show in mid-July.
Speaking to media in Washington Friday , Hubschman said , "I don't know what they are going to do , but my tummy says they are going to make changes." He also noted that although GECAS has signed an MOU for 10 A350s , it has not finalised the order.There is industry speculation that Airbus is weighing offering a significantly larger and heavier version of the new model , currently the largest is the A350-900 weighing in at 246 tonnes and seating around 300 in three classes.Asked to comment on how he would view such an aircraft , he said he had not formed an opinion."I have no thoughts.I want to see what they have".He stressed that with any aircraft , "commonality is very important if you're going to make several versions."He also pointed out that as an operating lessor , his primary concern is that an airplane have broad market appeal: "The best market is narrowbodies."and the larger an aircraft becomes , "the narrower the market becomes."

Will we see the definitive A350 at Farnborough ?
 
DreamLnr2008
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:23 am

 airplane  Airbus is in a panic, no one in their right mind can redesign a airplane in such little time. They are setting themselves up for some real embarrassment in front of the whole world if they do this, I'm sure they aren't this stupid.
 
airways45
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:27 am

I expect to see a major annoucement by Farnborough. They aren't stupid no, and if the market is saying one thing they sure have to listen.

I for one can't wait. Roll on July!

Airways45
 
norcal
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:34 am

Could this be a possible A350-1000? If so how does it compare to the 787-10 which I assume it would be aimed slightly above. Is is still out of the A346/773 category?
 
daedaeg
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:41 am

I'm guessing they are going to go ahead with a larger version of the A350. Possibly something big enough to off set the A340 variants.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting DreamLnr2008 (Reply 1):
Airbus is in a panic

You mean like when Boeing was in a panic when the A300 got ETOPS approval? You mean like when Boeing was in a panic when the A330 was spanking 767 sales?

These things go in cycles. Boeing is definitely having it good right now. But to ride on your laurels on a short term basis in this industry is nothing short of potentially lethal. Airbus' eyes have just seen this and now they are reacting.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:50 am

Airbus is so backed up in commonality, it seems, that keeping common with current technology is something that is holding them back from moving toward the future...and it's starting to hurt them in a big way.
 
FCKC
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:58 am

Daedaeg

I have the same feeling.
Only one plane for the 787/A350 market and for the 777/A340 market.
It would be a tremendous idea : great communality and great economics.
In fact that's the way Boeing is going to take if they launch the 787-10.
Only 787 , for 787/350 and 777/340 market.
As Airbus is the late starter , they should be well inspired to profit of this situation to make a more economical plane (less fuel burner) than the 787.
Probably in the aerodynamic (particulary wings) stage , as for the engines , both A and B can get the same ones.
Will see.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 5):
You mean like when Boeing was in a panic when the A300 got ETOPS approval?

What!!! I suggest you do an ETOPS history review of the 767 relative to the A300.
 
intothinair
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:48 am

Uh, Airbus has already basically killed the A332/A333/A342/A343 with the A350, why take the A345/A346 also out with the A350-1000???

cheers, Konstantin G.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 8):

OK, let me rephrase. Boeing was in an uproar when Airbus was getting ETOPS operations underway back in it's initial introduction. This was way before when the 767 was even thought of, (1974) and when the 747 was Queen of the Atlantic. So maybe Boeing wasn't in a panic, but thier feathers were ruffled when a foreign twin tried to wedge in on the 747's territory.

Regards
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 10):
Boeing was in an uproar when Airbus was getting ETOPS operations underway back in it's initial introduction.

Still not right. The A300 did not have ETOPS at it's initial introduction. At that time it was still subject to the 60 min. rule.

The A300 initial foray into ETOPS was an extension to 75 min. so Eastern could operate to Bermuda. This happened in the late 1970's after Eastern's acquisition of the airplane in 1977.

The 767 was the true ETOPS pioneer, with 120 min capability for North Atlantic operation in the mid 1980's.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough

Tue May 02, 2006 10:12 am

I could already see the hubris of Airbus Management at Farnborough...."this plane is a 787 and 777 killer.....this plane will be the greatest thing to happen to mankind since Jesus walked the earth"
 
NYC777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 10:18 am

Even if they do committ to a total redesin it will as SUH had said that it will take $8 - $10 bn and add at least another 3 years to EIS.That give Boeinga 6 year headstart and time to respond to the Redone (again) A350 with incremental changes to the 787 to keep it ahead. They did this with the &&&NG (773ER & 772LR).
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I could already see the hubris of Airbus Management at Farnborough...."this plane is a 787 and 777 killer.....this plane will be the greatest thing to happen to mankind since Jesus walked the earth"

I don't know about that, but Airbus is certainly known for saving up all their rabbits so they can pull them out of the hat at major industry shows. Farnborough will be a very telling event for the A350!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 14):
I don't know about that, but Airbus is certainly known for saving up all their rabbits so they can pull them out of the hat at major industry shows. Farnborough will be a very telling event for the A350!

I don't disagree with you there, but I've seen Airbus' hubris one too many times.....just like when Leahy announced the prior incarnation of the A350..."this plane is going to be a 777 killer".....
 
trex8
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
I don't disagree with you there, but I've seen Airbus' hubris one too many times.....just like when Leahy announced the prior incarnation of the A350..."this plane is going to be a 777 killer".....

but were they that far off with saying the A359 was a 772 killer? it certainly has prompted Boeing to move with the 787-10
 
Ken777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 12:15 pm

I think we are seeing some very high stakes gambling now days, with both A & B.

In looking at the short term (going against the 787), the medium term (next generation single aisle) and the longer term (a 777 killer) the question I have is what decision on the 350 by Airbus would cause Boeing to quietly say "gotcha"? In other words, when considering short, medium and long term what would Boeing love to see Airbus do?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 16):
but were they that far off with saying the A359 was a 772 killer? it certainly has prompted Boeing to move with the 787-10

its called "modesty".......especially given how much they thrashed the 787 when it first came out..

""One year ago, Noel Forgeard was still flying high. When asked to comment on the announcement of chief rival Boeing's plans to introduce the long-haul, super-efficient 787 Dreamliner jet, the Airbus chief responded: "We don't need to react to the presentation of this plane.""

spiegelonline.com

here's a message to Forgeard... footinmouth 
 
NAV20
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 14):
Airbus is certainly known for saving up all their rabbits so they can pull them out of the hat at major industry shows

For me, the most important thing about the Hubschman quote is, "There is industry speculation that Airbus is weighing offering a significantly larger and heavier version of the new model..."

If it's 'heavier' - and therefore thirstier - my guess is that it may turn out to be more of a dead cat than a live rabbit.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
For me, the most important thing about the Hubschman quote is, "There is industry speculation that Airbus is weighing offering a significantly larger and heavier version of the new model..."

If it's 'heavier' - and therefore thirstier - my guess is that it may turn out to be more of a dead cat than a live rabbit.

More importantly, what engines will they use?
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 2:47 pm

As the 350 has had a hard time against the 787, why not make it bigger, put GE90-115's under the wings and really go after the 773 and 748. Although the 773 is a very good plane, it is older technology so it is a little lower bar to clear.



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
what would Boeing love to see Airbus do?

About 5 years back, Airbus was saying to Boeing "gotcha" They had the full lineup and commonality in full bloom A320 - A300/310 - A330 - A340 and were announcing the A380. A full range with near commonality thru the WB spectrum. The problem with full commonality is when a segment needs to jump to the next level, does it stay common or leave that behind.

Now there are gaps where the A300/310 and A340's were. What does the A350 replace, but it nips into the A330 territory more than the 350 did, does the A350 replace the A330, does the A330 need new engines.

I think Boeing has a plan A if the A350 goes as is and a plan B is being formed if the A350 gets revised. Boeing could shoot themselves in the foot with the 787, if not with energy prices heading up the more efficient bird will win the orders unless it is substantially more expensive than its rival. So I feel that the next card B will play is announcing the -10 as a payload for range version (best CASM, range in the 7,500 nm area). This will be followed by the 2nd line announcement.

Once the 787 has its EIS and say 20 birds are flying, the 737RS will take off.

If Boeing can regain something like 55% or 60% of the widebodies the difference in cashflow between A & B will limit the number of models that A can develope.

Interesting times ahead

Regards,
Jay in Kitsap
 
manni
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough

Tue May 02, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting DreamLnr2008 (Reply 1):
They are setting themselves up for some real embarrassment in front of the whole world if they do this,



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I could already see the hubris of Airbus Management at Farnborough...."this plane is a 787 and 777 killer.....this plane will be the greatest thing to happen to mankind since Jesus walked the earth"

What a good example of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Let's face it, if a new A350 is financially vailable they will go for it. If the extra potential they can gain, does not offset the extra cost, they won't. And in case they feel it will be worth it, it will be at Boeing expense. Don't be surprised to see an updated forecast of this market from Boeing soon,... reduced with a couple hundred to a thousand units.  Wink
 
jacobin777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 3:35 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
What a good example of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

actually not...I've been quite consistent in saying the A350 will be a fine plane as is.... Wink

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
Don't be surprised to see an updated forecast of this market from Boeing soon,... reduced with a couple hundred to a thousand units.

that would be interesting...as both Boeing and Airbus have a large forecast for this size of aircraft (mid-market twin-isle plane)

Airbus got caught with its pants down....that's about it.........
 
Geo772
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 6:47 pm

Taken in isolation the A350 at the moment is a very capable airplane. But it is a very capable airplane in the same way that the A330 and A340 are very capable airplanes.

Airbus I think were caught napping when the 787 was unleashed. They were suddenly having to compete not just with the 777 which was hurting A340 sales but also with a smaller airplane that would eat into the A330. And to make matters worse at a time when huge resources were still required with the A380.

If Airbus go back to the drawing board and the A350 is delayed a further 2 or 3 years but comes out more economical than the 787 then Boeing will win in the short term. It will be roughly even in the medium term and Airbus might have a slight edge after about 15 years or so.

The problem Airbus have though is that they need firm orders, not just for the A320 series where they are doing very well but the widebody market, the A380 is still 100 short of breakeven, and until revenue starts pouring in the this investment will have to be reduced in other parts of the business.

In my personal opinion if Airbus can pull in another 50 to 100 orders for the A350 by July then they will press ahead with it as is.
 
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glideslope
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I could already see the hubris of Airbus Management at Farnborough...."this plane is a 787 and 777 killer.....this plane will be the greatest thing to happen to mankind since Jesus walked the earth"

LOL. The difference being the 350-1000 won't walk on water. It will sink. We all know the weight issues.  Smile
 
Johnny
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 8:09 pm

I think we will hear some news earlier than at Farnborough.

This month at Berlin we have the ILA2006 and i am pretty sure they will announce it already there as Lufthansa is one of the key customers this year for the A350 or B787.

I think we can expect a very big A350-family with at least three members in the beginning.Maybe four or five later-on to replace the A300-600, the A330 AND A340.

Johnny  Smile
 
zvezda
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
Don't be surprised to see an updated forecast of this market from Boeing soon,... reduced with a couple hundred to a thousand units.

Do you really believe the things you write?
 
Halibut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 8:34 pm

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
There is industry speculation that Airbus is weighing offering a significantly larger and heavier version of the new model , currently the largest is the A350-900 weighing in at 246 tonnes and seating around 300 in three classes.

 boggled 

I know this is , at this time , only speculation ! However , if this turns out to be true , I will be completely baffled why Airbus decided to take this course . Making a larger A350 without taking into consideration what Airlines "SQ/EK" have requested regarding the current A350 design will not fix the A350 dilemma .

Airbus may not be addressing the A350 "Pickle" just making a bigger one !
Airbus In Pickle Over A350-2 Redesign Or Not 2-II (by Halibut Apr 20 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Halibut
 
Halibut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
What a good example of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Manni,
Interesting that you bring this up . Airbus just may be in a "Damned if you do , Damned if you don't " situation regarding the A350 . The timing of the 787 coming into being couldn't has been better for Boeing & opposite for Airbus .

How are Airlines , that already bought the A350 , going to feel if Airbus does decide to redsign ??? What will happen if Airbus does not go foward with a redesign ???

Halibut


http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...cturing/2006-04-16-a350-usat_x.htm


Airbus considers redesign of jetliner


By Dan Reed, USA TODAY
Criticism from customers has pushed Airbus to consider redesigning its planned A-350, the jetliner the European planemaker is counting on to compete directly with Boeing's ground-breaking, hot-selling 787 Dreamliner.

A costly redesign ~{!*~} which would be the fifth ~{!*~} could spell big trouble for Airbus, delaying the plane until 2012, four years after the expected availability of the Boeing plane.

Not an easy decision

Still, the decision to invest an additional $3 billion to $5 billion in redesigning the A-350 is not an automatic one for executives at Airbus and its corporate parent, EADS.

To invest in an A-350 redesign, Airbus may have to depend on government-backed loans, which likely would draw a legal challenge from Boeing and the United States at the World Trade Organization.

Airbus and EADS are facing other big cash drains. BAE, the longtime British partner in Airbus, last week said it wants to sell its 20% stake in the planemaker, worth up to $5 billion, back to EADS, which owns the other 80%
 
parapente
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:15 pm

If Airbus do not start from scratch (very little point as they don't have the carbon technology-yet) then they only have one move they can make.It is the same move that they made last time (A350-900).Make it bigger. They could build a 345 seater and use A380 engines rated at around 88,000 lbs thrust. A sort of sister ship to the A380.Could perhaps use some technology from the A340-600 such as the central wing box (for extra fuel) and undercarriage. There is a clear size gap in the market.The question is whether there is a market in the gap!
 
Joni
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough

Tue May 02, 2006 9:26 pm

One possibility is that Airbus could announce a smaller delay to the program, such as 6 months, and use the time to pursue an aggressive weight-reduction campaign to increase the use of Al-Li and composites further. This way they could have the best of both worlds, keeping the A330 fuselage cross-section (and gaining the associated production efficiencies from building 330, 340 and 350 on the same line) and a lower weight. It would also be cheaper than changing the fuselage, and faster to implement.

In fact, considering that the importing the A380 cockpit to the A350 has just introduced a half-year delay perhaps this kind of program wouldn't change the schedule substantially at all. They'd just keep the guys working on the structures while the cockpit is sorted out.

One thing I don't know, however, is how much weight they could shave from the plane. Perhaps they could cut the A359 OEW to where the 787-10 OEW target is. Then the pax capacity (8-abreast) would be the same for both planes, whereas the 787-10 would have a slightly wider cabin since composites are a bit lighter than Al-Li in planes. (a wider cabin would otherwise make the 787-10 heavier than a same-capacity A350).

[Edited 2006-05-02 14:28:37]
 
aa1818
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 9:39 pm

I cannot possibly see how with over 200 commitments and orders, Airbus will go 'clean sheet' if that is what people here are suggesting. IMHO Airbus can only use the A350 in it's current form and upgrade with a -1000, HGW, E, or other versions which i'm certain will offer great economics etc, but will perhaps always lag behind Boeing since those very same options are available to all manufacturers with ALL aircraft.

Airbus need a new design and I doubt they are 'keeping it a secret'. Boeing is 100% locked into the 787 and CANNOT delay the programme, therefore to avoid loosing orders, keeping a clean sheet design secret is not in any interest of Airbus apart from potentially screwing themselves by not allowing customers an opportunity buy the bird. Airbus might announce an improvement to the A350 at Farnborough just like Boeing will announce an improvement to the Dreamliner (probably after the first prototype is built and a light bulb clicks in a 787 Engineer's head). Boeing's in no rush to improve unless Airbus can match or surpass their firgures!

Remember- these are just figures until the birds fly!!! Boeing is known for meeting targets and surpassing them- eventually so I'm certain Airbus isn't banking on these, but still you never know!!!!!

The ball is in Airbus' court and they've got their pants down!!!
Cheers
AA1818

[Edited 2006-05-02 15:14:01]
 
zvezda
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough

Tue May 02, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 31):
One possibility is that Airbus could announce a smaller delay to the program, such as 6 months, and use the time to pursue an aggressive weight-reduction campaign to increase the use of Al-Li and composites further. This way they could have the best of both worlds, keeping the A330 fuselage cross-section (and gaining the associated production efficiencies from building 330, 340 and 350 on the same line) and a lower weight. It would also be cheaper than changing the fuselage, and faster to implement.

This makes a lot of sense. I think the 15 tonne weight difference between the A350 and the B787 is a bigger problem than the cabin width. Does anyone know whether or not the A350 is planned to use a composite keel (like the A340-600)?

Quoting Joni (Reply 31):
Perhaps they could cut the A359 OEW to where the 787-10 OEW target is.

The problem is that Airbus need to get the A350-900's weight down to about that of the B787-9, which is the same sized aircraft (within 2% of cabin floor area, less than 1% difference at armrest height). The B787-10 is in a completely different size category.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 21):
As the 350 has had a hard time against the 787, why not make it bigger, put GE90-115's under the wings and really go after the 773 and 748. Although the 773 is a very good plane, it is older technology so it is a little lower bar to clear

  

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
This makes a lot of sense. I think the 15 tonne weight difference between the A350 and the B787 is a bigger problem than the cabin width. Does anyone know whether or not the A350 is planned to use a composite keel (like the A340-600)?

The only point I'd bring up about this is how much more expensive does Airbus want to make this airplane? I mean ostensibly it's already above what the 787 lists for...So adding expensive exotic metal technology plus extensive composites...Would they be able to sell it at a competitive price in the long run?...

And if the report is true that Airbus engineers only calculated a 560Kg reduction in weight from an entire composite fuselage, how could they possibly reduce the weight by 15,000Kg from a higher proportion of composite + Al-Li??? Even the weight reduction program for A380 did not yield nearly that much in weight savings...it's pie in the sky IMO...



-widebodyphotog

[Edited 2006-05-02 16:32:40]
 
timboflier215
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 28):
I know this is , at this time , only speculation ! However , if this turns out to be true , I will be completely baffled why Airbus decided to take this course

dont forget, the quote says "industry speculation", which could be just about anyone! unless airbus is quoted on this, i'd be tempted to ignore it!!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
.I've been quite consistent in saying the A350 will be a fine plane as is..

hehe, talk about damning with faint praise! when your up against the 787, it seems 'fine' just isn't good enough!
 
manni
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
Do you really believe the things you write?

Seriously, read posts a second time before getting your pantys in a twist...  Yeah sure

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
And in case they feel it will be worth it, it will be at Boeing expense. Don't be surprised to see an updated forecast of this market from Boeing soon,... reduced with a couple hundred to a thousand units. Wink
 
Joni
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 34):

And if the report is true that Airbus engineers only calculated a 560Kg reduction in weight from an entire composite fuselage, how could they possibly reduce the weight by 15,000Kg from a higher proportion of composite + Al-Li??? Even the weight reduction program for A380 did not yield nearly that much in weight savings...it's pie in the sky IMO...

If they want 10 tons of weight off, obviously they would need to think of restructuring the plane further than just replacing materials with other materials.
 
Poitin
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Tue May 02, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 14):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I could already see the hubris of Airbus Management at Farnborough...."this plane is a 787 and 777 killer.....this plane will be the greatest thing to happen to mankind since Jesus walked the earth"

I don't know about that, but Airbus is certainly known for saving up all their rabbits so they can pull them out of the hat at major industry shows. Farnborough will be a very telling event for the A350!

While I have no details about the the A350E, or A360 as others are calling it, there are reportedly three designs being looked at. And Farnborough is where the winner will be announced. What it will be is still not solid. Hubschman is being honest about that. He, I am sure, knows all about what the options Airbus is looking at and was asked to give his opinion. I am sure U-H and Chew have been briefed as have other airlines.

Farnborough is going to be very, very interesting.

And the result will probably be good for all of us, if Airbus pulls the right rabbit out of the hat.

And there well may be some major changes in Airbus management. Watch for that as well, but that will not be announced at Farnborough, but quietly as possible. EADS is not happy with Airbus.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 25):

LOL. The difference being the 350-1000 won't walk on water. It will sink. We all know the weight issues.

fortunately for Airbus, with some good thrust, at least it will be able to "hover" over water... Smile
 
katekebo
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 12:38 am

The A350-900 (and the B787-1000) are currently limited in size/capacity by the engines. Before it can be stretched any further, while maintaing attractive payload/range, GE or RR have to come up with a more powerful engines with significantly lower fuel burn than current B777 engines. Sticking currently available engines under the A350 wing will result in an airplane essentially identical in performance to B777. Better than A340, but not good enough to dominate the market. And Airbus would have to spend more money to strengthen the wings for the bigger engines and design new undercarriage to provide enough ground clearance. Given that EADS will have to pay around $4.5b to BAE for their share of Airbus, cash for such development may be scarce (unless French government comes to the rescue with some kind of conviniently structured credit).
 
787engineer
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough

Wed May 03, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 7):
Only one plane for the 787/A350 market and for the 777/A340 market.
It would be a tremendous idea : great communality and great economics.
In fact that's the way Boeing is going to take if they launch the 787-10.
Only 787 , for 787/350 and 777/340 market.
As Airbus is the late starter , they should be well inspired to profit of this situation to make a more economical plane (less fuel burner) than the 787.
Probably in the aerodynamic (particulary wings) stage , as for the engines , both A and B can get the same ones.
Will see.

You can't expect one plane to be competitive from 250 pax all the way to 375+ pax This is why the 773 has been beating out the A346. When you stretch a fuselage to such lengths there are many structural challenges that contribute to OEW. The 773 can sit 9-10 abreast which means you don't need such a long fuselage to carry the same number of passengers. By stretching the A350 with a -1000 model will result in many similar problems (although the -1000 probably won't be quite as long as the A346). Improvements in aerodynamics these days are relatively small, the biggest contributions to lower fuel burn in new planes today comes from the engines and lighter materials (composites, Al-Li, more titanium, etc.)

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 13):
Even if they do committ to a total redesin it will as SUH had said that it will take $8 - $10 bn and add at least another 3 years to EIS.That give Boeinga 6 year headstart and time to respond to the Redone (again) A350 with incremental changes to the 787 to keep it ahead. They did this with the &&&NG (773ER & 772LR).

I think Airbus gave themselves plenty of time the first time around. I don't see why a complete redesign with a new fuselage would take the EIS past 2012/2013. End of 2012 is about 5 and a half years away, and the 787 will be developed in about 4 and a half years. The 787 got a boost from sonic cruiser technologies research and given that Airbus usually takes a little longer than Boeing I think late 2012/early 2013 for an all new (new fuselage) A350 isn't unreasonable.

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 21):
As the 350 has had a hard time against the 787, why not make it bigger, put GE90-115's under the wings and really go after the 773 and 748. Although the 773 is a very good plane, it is older technology so it is a little lower bar to clear.

Would GE90-115s even fit under the wing at this point? A completely new landing gear system may have to be designed instead of deriving one from the A330/A340. Stretching an 8-abreast fuselage into the 773 and 748 pax range is just crazy, there are structural limitations (not to mention issues of rotating such a long fuselage)

Quoting Johnny (Reply 26):
think we can expect a very big A350-family with at least three members in the beginning.Maybe four or five later-on to replace the A300-600, the A330 AND A340.

Johnny Smile

I think Airbus would be smart to start a new a360 that competes directly against the 773, 744/748, and replaces the A346 with a new fuselage of course.

Quoting Joni (Reply 31):
One possibility is that Airbus could announce a smaller delay to the program, such as 6 months, and use the time to pursue an aggressive weight-reduction campaign to increase the use of Al-Li and composites further. This way they could have the best of both worlds, keeping the A330 fuselage cross-section (and gaining the associated production efficiencies from building 330, 340 and 350 on the same line) and a lower weight. It would also be cheaper than changing the fuselage, and faster to implement.

I doubt an aggressive weight-reduction program would save much more than a few tons. I'm not sure if it would be possible to overcome the weight savings of an all composite fuselage. The bleedless system of the 787 will also help it be marginally more efficient than the A350 even if they weighed the same.
 
FCKC
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:27 am

787 engineer

Many thanks for all these technical precisions.
Seeing what your occupation is , your comments are really appreciated.

Now my question is :

What Airbus will decide to do with the A350 , how the already A350 buyers will react to the EIS delay ?

Airbus will have to convince these customers to wait for another period before getting this new plane , by placing to these customers A330s (as they did forTP) or A340s (as they did for Finnair).
An airline like Bangkok Aw which has commited to the A350 , can be a target for A330s.If they succeed to convince these airlines to wait for the A350 EIS , it can be a good boost for the A330 sales.
What you though ?
 
11Bravo
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 41):
I doubt an aggressive weight-reduction program would save much more than a few tons.

Even that's doubtful I think. It seems to me that's already been the major focus of the A350 program; take the A330 and put it on a diet with an aggressive weight-reduction program to get a more efficient aircraft. How much more weight is there to shave off? I suspect the answer to that is that they've reduced pretty much everything that can be reduced.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):

"I have a gut feeling that Airbus will unveil a significantly redone A350 by the Farnborough Air Show in mid-July.
Speaking to media in Washington Friday , Hubschman said , "I don't know what they are going to do , but my tummy says they are going to make changes." He also noted that although GECAS has signed an MOU for 10 A350s , it has not finalised the order.There is industry speculation that Airbus is weighing offering a significantly larger and heavier version of the new model , currently the largest is the A350-900 weighing in at 246 tonnes and seating around 300 in three classes.Asked to comment on how he would view such an aircraft , he said he had not formed an opinion."I have no thoughts.I want to see what they have".He stressed that with any aircraft , "commonality is very important if you're going to make several versions."He also pointed out that as an operating lessor , his primary concern is that an airplane have broad market appeal: "The best market is narrowbodies."and the larger an aircraft becomes , "the narrower the market becomes."

That's interesting. Airbus is basically trying to reduce the CASM advantages of the 787 the same way that they tried to do it before (when the introduced the 350-900 to take on the 787-900). Simply make the plane bigger, stuff more seats in there to make it more profitable on a seat by seat basis.

The danger of this is while it does threaten the 777 line, it still concedes almost all of the 767/300/330/342/3 market to Boeing. That's not completly a bad thing given how badly the 777 is dominating the 340 line right now (better to cannibalize your own line then your opponents), but Boeing always has the option to do a refit on the 777, or go after the 320.

The other point is that Airbus hoped that the gap around the A380 would force some airlines up to that model. This definitly is a hole in that model.

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 9):
Uh, Airbus has already basically killed the A332/A333/A342/A343 with the A350, why take the A345/A346 also out with the A350-1000???

Arguably, they were already dead.
 
airbazar
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 42):
Airbus will have to convince these customers to wait for another period before getting this new plane , by placing to these customers A330s (as they did forTP) or A340s (as they did for Finnair).
An airline like Bangkok Aw which has commited to the A350 , can be a target for A330s.If they succeed to convince these airlines to wait for the A350 EIS , it can be a good boost for the A330 sales.

I agree. Boeing did a great job with the 787 and it's obviously a very popular aircraft. But they didn't have a suitable alternative. Airbus sorta jumped the gun with the A350 but they can continue to push back on the EIS date because 1) they have the A330 which is still a very good aircraft and selling; and 2) The 787 is out of delivery slots in the near future so any remaining potential customers won't be able to get the 787 any time soon.

My feeling is that while A has been showing off one thing, while in the background they're actually working on something different and in the mean time their PR guys are just stalling until the engineers are done doing their work.
 
deltadc9
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
."and the larger an aircraft becomes , "the narrower the market becomes."

I think this quote is very interesting.

Quoting Manni (Reply 22):
What a good example of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't".



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
actually not...I've been quite consistent in saying the A350 will be a fine plane as is....

I think both of your arguments make sense. The current A-350 would be a very good plane and they would make a profit with it as is.

But.....would additional changes both make a profit AND increase market share? If not, stay with the current design, make some money, and attack another market. The profit part is not in question, what they want is more market share but you have to get both to make it worth it.

Quoting Joni (Reply 31):
In fact, considering that the importing the A380 cockpit to the A350 has just introduced a half-year delay perhaps this kind of program wouldn't change the schedule substantially at all. They'd just keep the guys working on the structures while the cockpit is sorted out.

My theory is that they knew many areas needed more work, and decided since there was going to be a 6-month delay, why not just do the cockpit too. Otherwise, why delay the whole project just so one team can retrofit a cockpit when the 330 cockpit was perfectly adequate. The cockpit thing may have given the entire team 6 months, but they may already have their assignments and this new proposed set of changes may require even more resources.

Just my opinion and theory and it may bear no resemblance to reality.
 
Halibut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 31):
One possibility is that Airbus could announce a smaller delay to the program, such as 6 months, and use the time to pursue an aggressive weight-reduction campaign to increase the use of Al-Li and composites further. This way they could have the best of both worlds, keeping the A330 fuselage cross-section (

From what I have read about the A350 fuselage , it's more of a burden than an asset . Also, these constant annoucements regarding the A350's tweeks/upgrades are beginning to remind me of all the "Rocky" movies !

Lets just faces it folks . Airbus is indeed in a tough spot for the foreseeable future . No matter what they do at this stage , they will still be behind Boeing in the mid-size, twin aisle market .

****The question is : Not if they are . But for how long will they be behind ???****

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...n+A350+design%2c+says+ILFC's.html

Nonetheless, Udvar-Hazy sees the A350 as a response by Airbus after being “stunned” and “caught a little bit behind the power curve” when rival Boeing shifted gears from the Sonic Cruiser plan to developing a new family of aircraft with the 787.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+North+American+CEO+Eccleston.html

DATE:20/04/06
SOURCE:Flight International

The current debate over the future of the A350 programme started when ILFC chairman and chief executive Steven Udvar-Hazy in a 29 March speech at an aircraft finance conference in Orlando, Florida said Airbus must decide if it should settle on its current A350 offering - which is based on the A330 fuselage - and proceed with its already delayed launch schedule or pull the program and design an entirely new aircraft.

Halibut
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 11):
Still not right

Again I misspoke. Airbus was pushing the idea of marketing the A300 for Trans-Atlantic routes at the time. which were, are and will be in effect Extended Twin OPS) You are correct about the 767 pioneering ETOPS itself. Sorry for the confusion.
 
User avatar
Stitch
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RE: Significantly New A350 Revealed At Farnborough?

Wed May 03, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 45):
Airbus sorta jumped the gun with the A350 but they can continue to push back on the EIS date because 1) they have the A330 which is still a very good aircraft and selling; and 2) The 787 is out of delivery slots in the near future so any remaining potential customers won't be able to get the 787 any time soon.

One thing Airbus needs to at least consider is, by delaying the A350 even more, those customers with 787s will be enjoying significant efficiency and performance advantages over A350 customers flying "place-holder" A330s. An airline flying the 787 for five years could save enough money to buy the plane outright vs. flying an A330 for that time period, which means even if the A350 is better, the 787 still remains cheaper to fly (thanks to no finance or depreciation costs).

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