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9252fly
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AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 2:45 am

Here's a link to a story that may need to be confirmed by AC. This possibility has been floated for a long time. If true,this service would be the first A319 narrow body service across the Atlantic by a legacy carrier.

http://www.vocm.com/news-info.asp?id=11582

Edit: This operation opens up some additional possibilities,such as using the A319 for a tag-on flight beyond LHR as this operation will start at about the same time as the Canada-UK open skies agreement comes into effect. What are the chances of the aircraft having a tag-on destionation beyond LHR? With the recent ETOP's certification change to this aircraft,I could also see AC using the aircraft between YVR and various points in Hawaii.

[Edited 2006-05-11 20:21:45]
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 2:53 am

If that is true there is hope for jetBlue across the pond.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
If that is true there is hope for jetBlue across the pond.

London and Dublin would be the only big cities a 320 could make it to nonstop, and westbound would probably require a stop.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
stirling
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 3:31 am

What I find amusing.....

St Johns NF is closer to London UK, than it is to Vancouver BC!
Delete this User
 
sebring
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
What are the chances of the aircraft having a tag-on destionation beyond LHR?

Nil.

And from what I was just told, this is all very premature. Lots of hurdles before it comes into being.
 
9252fly
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 3:50 am

Does anyone know if AC will have a slot at LHR to operate this flight?

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
And from what I was just told, this is all very premature. Lots of hurdles before it comes into being.

Agreed,it's no small undertaking!
 
dforce1
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:38 am

WJ could be in talks at the moment with the NFLD government to operate a flight on their 738's.
 
sebring
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting DFORCE1 (Reply 6):
WJ could be in talks at the moment with the NFLD government to operate a flight on their 738's.

The way Loyola Hearn trumpeted AC's news - though it was highly premature on his part - one would have to think either WS is not in talks with the NL government, or if it is, it was asking for too much in the way of subsidy or offering too little in the way of service.
 
dforce1
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:44 am

Read this about WJ - it's purely speculative but offers some insight....
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...geid=968350072197&col=969048863851
 
A319XFW
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 5):
Does anyone know if AC will have a slot at LHR to operate this flight?

Wouldn't they just use the slot for the existing flight if they are just substituting the aircraft with an A319?

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
Lots of hurdles before it comes into being.

 checkmark If They want 180 min ETOPS for instance, the equipment on the aircraft would have to be certified for this. I'd guess it'd mainly be a paperwork exercise though.
 
chrisa330
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 9):
Wouldn't they just use the slot for the existing flight if they are just substituting the aircraft with an A319?

The YHZ-LHR flight is continuing non-stop. If the YYT route goes forward, this is an extra flight over and above what AC is offering today.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 9):
Wouldn't they just use the slot for the existing flight if they are just substituting the aircraft with an A319?

No, because the existing LHR-YYT-YHZ will become LHR-YHZ  Smile


Lee
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A319XFW
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 11):
No, because the existing LHR-YYT-YHZ will become LHR-YHZ

Scrap a YUL flight then... After all, who wants to go to French speaking Canada when you can get it quicker and cheaper across the Channel...  duck 
 
vxg
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 5:09 am

Would this flight even need the recent FAA ETOPS certification for the A319? Since its between Canada and the UK wouldn't it only need JAA (which I understand has already certified the A319 for extended overwater ops) and CAA certification?

- VXG
 
aircanl1011
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
What I find amusing.....

St Johns NF is closer to London UK, than it is to Vancouver BC!

The big difference is the large stretch of water between St Johns and London!
CYMRU AM BYTH / WALES FOREVER
 
Humberside
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 5:37 am

Would be very interesting to see if this happens. Hopefully it will so YYT can keep its LHR service. Would be great to see AC A319's at LHR. Perhaps AC could also consider other Northern Canada-UK routes with their A319's?
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longhauler
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 15):
Perhaps AC could also consider other Northern Canada-UK routes with their A319's?

With it's present AC fuel capacity, the only route feasible with an A319, is LHR-YYT. Even LHR-YHZ is beyond its capability without extra tanks and increased MTOW.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Bofredrik
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 6:42 am

HELLO! Anyone thinking of the passengers and what they say?
 
sebring
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 17):
HELLO! Anyone thinking of the passengers and what they say?

Well, the people of Newfoundland are demanding this four-hour flight. I don't think they would have much to complain about.
 
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AC_B777
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 7:29 am

I was talking to a fellow co-worker a couple of days ago and he said that running a 319 on the YYT-LHR-YYT route might have some problems with Star Alliance. One of those problems would be that Star want Executive First cabins on International flights. Since the A319 fleet are not configured for this, it could be a problem in trying to satisfy business people flying the route.
The solution would either be keep the current config and offer reduced J class rates to business travelers or to bring the a/c in on an earlier flight and then reconfigure it with 23-30 EJ seats and 60-75 Y class seats.
Obviously both have some substantial issues to overcome.
If you are going to reduce the price on a regular J class fare, then it will end up that AC will lose money due to the fact that a J fare won't be that much higher than a Y class fare.
Then on the other hand, to reconfigure the a/c becomes a whole other matter. It can be done. CP used to do it here many years ago when their 73C's were reconfigured from Combi to full pax and visaversa.
It just means that the a/c would have to come off another flight by early afternoon and then all existing J class seats removed as well as some Y class seats. Then a bulkhead installed and the EJ seats plus electronics.
Then on the return trip, the opposite done due to the fact that the same a/c can't keep doing that run for any length of time.
I hope that we see the flights kept on, but I have my doubts that we will see the 319 doing it. Just my opinion.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
kazzie
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 17):
HELLO! Anyone thinking of the passengers and what they say?

The "Average Passenger" cant tell 747 fom a A319 anyway..  Wink
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longhauler
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 19):
One of those problems would be that Star want Executive First cabins on International flights. Since the A319 fleet are not configured for this, it could be a problem in trying to satisfy business people flying the route.

That is not likely a problem, as AC presently flies aircraft on the Atlantic that are not equipped with an Executive First cabin.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Boeing744
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:12 am

I bet all of the A32X flight and cabin crews are going to love this route.

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 17):
HELLO! Anyone thinking of the passengers and what they say?

I don't think that will be too much of a problem. Most pax don't know what type of aircraft they will be flying on when they book. Also, I have found that AC's A319s are very comfortable in Y, even for a 4 hour flight.
 
cedarjet
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 22):
Also, I have found that AC's A319s are very comfortable in Y, even for a 4 hour flight.

So true, while the widebody fleet of Air Canada is no great shakes, the narrowbodies are beautiful. The nicest and most comfortable A32X out of hundreds I've flown, and the Embraer 175 / 190s are even better (PTV on an RJ!). I would love to cross the Atlantic on an A319 to St Johns, I would definitely take the flight. And it really isn't that far actually, only a few hundred miles more than UK to Cyprus. No-one is questioning the use of high density A320s and 737s on that route are they? Business travellers who just absolutely must have a flat bed can go via Montreal and take four more hours to complete the journey. The rest of us will be grateful for a comfortable and nonstop four hour flight on the A319, the Porsche 911 of the skies.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
matt
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 22):
I bet all of the A32X flight and cabin crews are going to love this route.

For A32X cockpit crews, it will be a first opportunity to fly to Europe and have a layover there.

For cabin crew, it's nothing different as they're qualified on all types.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 1):
If that is true there is hope for jetBlue across the pond.

There would be nothing special about Jetblue flying trans-atlantic. Unless Direct TV opened up coverage, you wouldn't be able to watch tv as it is only on flights within the US airspace. Flight to San Juan and the Dominican get service cut off.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
corey07850
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Kazzie (Reply 20):
The "Average Passenger" cant tell 747 fom a A319 anyway.. Wink

You better believe they can... Maybe they can't tell the difference between a 319 and a 737, but you can bet they'll know the difference between a 747 and an A319...

This must be great news for those who can't imagine flying transatlantic in a 757  Wink
 
matt
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 26):
This must be great news for those who can't imagine flying transatlantic in a 757 Wink

You're right. Some people will this that this is awful! I can't see why...

In fact, why is it any different from YHZ-CUN, YHZ-YYC, YYZ-POS or YYC-JFK, all operated by AC 319s?
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
mainMAN
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
London and Dublin would be the only big cities a 320 could make it to nonstop, and westbound would probably require a stop

The metro areas of Glasgow, Newcastle, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham are bigger than Dublin!! In some cases, they're more than twice the size.
 
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Vasu
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 9:08 am

Let's face it... it's probably going to be more comfortable than flying one of AC's 767s!  stirthepot 
 
sebring
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 19):
I was talking to a fellow co-worker a couple of days ago and he said that running a 319 on the YYT-LHR-YYT route might have some problems with Star Alliance. One of those problems would be that Star want Executive First cabins on International flights. Since the A319 fleet are not configured for this, it could be a problem in trying to satisfy business people flying the route.

AC flies YYZ-BOG with the 319 and that doesn't seem to bother the Star carriers, none of whom fly to YYT.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting MainMAN (Reply 28):

The metro areas of Glasgow, Newcastle, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester and Birmingham are bigger than Dublin!! In some cases, they're more than twice the size.

Fine, the only capitals... given winds going west, it's an academic argument anyway.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
thepilot
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 11:23 am

Horay! The single aisle transoceanic flight revolution has begun! First CO, then AA, US, and now AC (maybe). I personally would love to have this flight. The 19 should easily be able to make this route, even with strong winds. I would fly this in a second!

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 16):
With it's present AC fuel capacity, the only route feasible with an A319, is LHR-YYT. Even LHR-YHZ is beyond its capability without extra tanks and increased MTOW.

Really? What is AC's A319s range then? Airbus says that the 19's range in 3700 nautical miles, and YYT-LHR is 2012nm. YHZ-LHR is 2483nm. Is this a kilometer/statue miles/nautical miles mix up? Any info would be helpful.
From YVR
 
roseflyer
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 32):
Really? What is AC's A319s range then? Airbus says that the 19's range in 3700 nautical miles, and YYT-LHR is 2012nm. YHZ-LHR is 2483nm. Is this a kilometer/statue miles/nautical miles mix up? Any info would be helpful.

YYT-LHR is easily within the range of the A319. Air Canada operates YYC-YHZ currently with the Airbus narrowbodies, which is almost exactly the same length as YYT-LHR. The route is 2316 miles.

One possibility I see is that Air Canada could operate this route by only selling the plane as economy. They could give the first class seats to elite members and full fare customers like some other airlines do on long haul flights.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
joffie
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 26):
you can bet they'll know the difference between a 747 and an A319...

To the average passenger, everyting is a 747 Big grin
 
777fan
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 12:46 pm

I'm a big fan of the A319 but have been on two flights (UA/ORD-SFO) that have been absolutely manhandled by moderate turbulence over the Rockies. I'm not sure I'd want to fly an A319 across the North Atlantic in the winter!

Either way, it's a big move for AC and other carriers that want to go across the pond because it'll free up their widebodies for the really long hauls...


777fan
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sebring
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 33):
One possibility I see is that Air Canada could operate this route by only selling the plane as economy. They could give the first class seats to elite members and full fare customers like some other airlines do on long haul flights.

Air Canada sells a premium economy seat called Comfort Class when they take a domestically configured 767 and use it in international service. Comfort Class provides the bigger seat with more legroom but not all of the amenities of Executive First service. I suspect that would be the route chosen here.
 
challiday
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting Stirling (Reply 3):
What I find amusing.....

St Johns NF is closer to London UK, than it is to Vancouver BC!

Why is that amusing, it's geography... That's like saying "I find it Amusing that Miami, FL is closer to Havana, Cuba then Juneau, Alaska"

 banghead 

[Edited 2006-05-12 10:44:33]
 
ReverseThrust
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 5:47 pm

So Continental's mass of 757's crossing the pond every day (and those of American too) to many destinations are not narrowbodies then?
Flown MD11/81/82/83/87/90,B732/733/734/735/737W/738/739/742/752/753,F70/100,A300/319/320/321/332/333/343,TU134A/154M,L10
 
Door5Right
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 6:04 pm

Extended range A319s have already been in regular premium trans atlantic services over the past three years, operated by Privatair on behalf of Lufthansa and Swiss from Munich, Dusseldorf and Zurich to Newark and Chicago.
My soul is in the sky...
 
voodoo
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 8:19 pm

Privateair's premium class yields are probably high enough to absolutely ensure profitability using the 319.
I wonder how much of the AC YYT-LHR-YYT 767 traffic was cargo (oil industry and fish products) effectively `subsidising' the yields for the economy pax sector. The 319 may not have that ability...?

The Toronto Star article on Westjet was interesting. I am not sure what they mean by Stansted not having connections to Europe. Maybe not the excellent business connections of LHR but not an unreasonable selection if arrivals can be timed to fit Ryanair et al. And as to single ticketing... well... it would only take one link on the Wetjet site to Stansteds other carriers `click here for European connections at Stansted'...

[Edited 2006-05-12 13:52:22]
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longhauler
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 32):
Really? What is AC's A319s range then? Airbus says that the 19's range in 3700 nautical miles, and YYT-LHR is 2012nm. YHZ-LHR is 2483nm. Is this a kilometer/statue miles/nautical miles mix up? Any info would be helpful.

AC's A319's hold just under 19000 Kgs of fuel in the standard 5 tanks (4 wing tanks, and one fuselage centre tank) at standard temperature. This is the same for all AC A319s, both the domestic and the "overseas" ones used in the Caribbean.

Presently, the longest flight flown by ACs A319s, is YYZ-BOG at 2350 nm. Having flown the route a few times, at max all up weight out of YYZ, you have about 90 minutes of fuel over BOG, with a full pax load. Of course, these things have a lot of variables.

LHR-YYT could easily be flown, with full pax and cargo, and conceivably, an alternate as far away as YHZ could be held, but not much more.

The 3700 nms you quote I would imagine is workable, with a higher MGTOW, (ACs are 70,000 kgs) and more fuel tanks. But when you start filling the aft cargo hold with ACTs, it makes things a bit tight for an airline type operation with pax baggage and revenue cargo.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
787kq
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Thepilot (Reply 32):
The single aisle transoceanic flight revolution has begun! First CO, then AA, US, and now AC (maybe).

US flies narrowbodies across Atlantic?
 
pawsleykat
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
London and Dublin would be the only big cities a 320 could make it to nonstop, and westbound would probably require a stop.

Wouldn't GLA and/or EDI benefit from this. After all, there is Continental @ EDI and CO, US and Air Canada (the latter two seasonal) @ GLA and the times that I have flown them, the flights are usually quite full.

JG
First Class passengers are my favourites. They can't get any further forward without an ATPL.
 
A319XFW
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 41):
The 3700 nms you quote I would imagine is workable, with a higher MGTOW, (ACs are 70,000 kgs) and more fuel tanks. But when you start filling the aft cargo hold with ACTs, it makes things a bit tight for an airline type operation with pax baggage and revenue cargo.

 checkmark  For the ACT's there would have to be the provisions (which IIRC AC has got some a/c that have this) and then they would have to buy the SB to install the ACT's. You can install ACT's in aircraft without the provision, but it gets a bit messy.
But if AC does, I wouldn't mind flying out with the crash crew to YWG (would probably be done at ACTS there?) to supervise installing them Big grin
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 44):
(which IIRC AC has got some a/c that have this)

The only AC aircraft which have the provision for the ACTs are the A321s, which currently have one installed, and the provision for one more.

Other than LHR-YYT, I can't see any other Atlantic route where the A319 is a viable option. The rest can support at least a B767-200. And the current fuel provision on the A319 can satisfy that.

However, the "overseas" A319s are operating under the ETOPS 75 minute rule. That would have to be upgraded to at least 90 minutes, and 120 minutes would offer the best options. For that, the cargo fire suppression would have to be upgraded to 120 minutes as well.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
A319XFW
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 45):
However, the "overseas" A319s are operating under the ETOPS 75 minute rule. That would have to be upgraded to at least 90 minutes, and 120 minutes would offer the best options. For that, the cargo fire suppression would have to be upgraded to 120 minutes as well.

There is the 180 ETOPS now - or is that going for the overkill for LHR-YYT. I'm guessing 180 ETOPS is also more expensive than 120 ETOPS?
 
cedarjet
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Fri May 12, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting A319XFW (Reply 46):
I'm guessing 180 ETOPS is also more expensive than 120 ETOPS?

Probably just a paperwork thing. I'm sure the requirements are about the same, carry lifejackets and do mx in a certain way. In fact many airlines of Air Canada's calibre (AA for sure) maintain all their fleet to ETOPS 180 standard, (a) it means they can use any of the fleet for any route, and (b) it provides a higher mx standard and therefore a better dispatch reliability.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
A319XFW
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Sat May 13, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 47):
Probably just a paperwork thing.

How does ETOPS affect the MEL/MMEL then?
 
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RE: AC To Operate YYT-LHR With An A319

Sat May 13, 2006 12:09 am

It's a little more involved than one would think.

From maintenance, to equipment, to crew training ... all have to be considered, then weighed against the viability of one daily round trip route. Possibly even less often in low season.

AC presently licences and maintains its ETOPS aircraft to the maximum allowed under Canadian Air Regulations and manufacturer specs, I would imagine the A319 would be no different.

The MEL for the A320 series currently has provisions for ETOPS operations, as the A319M and A320M fly to Caribbean destinations.
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