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A320ajm
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Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 4:52 pm

Hi

I have been trying to work out this question for ages:
If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it stays afloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?
If the answer is they detach the slide first, how do they get into it? (A long way to jump into the water if you have injured passengers!!)

Thanks
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
joffie
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 4:58 pm

If an A300 ditches in the water, the engines will take up the water, and in effect the plane would break up similar to the Ethiopian flight back in 1994.

I don't even know why airline's safety cards bother with the images of the plane staying afloat if it ditches in water, as we all know, wont.

Planes like the MD series that have the engines on the back have a better chance, as the fuselage would perhaps skim the water.
 
A320ajm
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:01 pm

OK, then , bad example, say for a MD-80, which has engines on the tail section.
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
andz
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 2):
OK, then , bad example, say for a MD-80, which has engines on the tail section.

No your example is valid, look at the aircraft flying over water the most, where are the engines on most of them?
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A320ajm
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:08 pm

Good point Andz,
Many aircraft that fly long over sea trips have engines on the wings that would probably be ripped off!
Examples
A330
777
747
A380 (God forbid that that ever has to ditch!!)
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
777fan
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:14 pm

Um, let's think about it. Plane + 170mph velocity + water = break up
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
lehovec
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:20 pm

Evacuation in case of ditching in my company is:
open the doors and wait for slides to inflate then detach them from the door (quite simple procedure) and use them as a raft.
You can't use slide for evacuating from the a/c as they are going to be very shallow and you would have to walk on the slide and in this case it would be possible to evacuate 1 pax per sec.

Itrndoes sound quite easy but after an impact I don't think it would be asrneasy as it appears in both manual and on safety card where people lookrnlike they are on holiday, laying on the slides that are floating aroundrnthe a/c.
 
A320ajm
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:22 pm

777 fan,
An MD80 has a chance to skim across the water, thus slowing it down due to friction. If a skilled pilot slowed the aircraft like this, then they may get to a speed where the airframe would not break up. The Ethiopian pilot had a good idea what he was doing, he skimmed and if it had not been for his engines, he may not have flipped and then broke up. His skill saved some lives. Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
antonovman
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:23 pm

the slide is the raft
 
dogfighter2111
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:33 pm

Heya,

ANY aircraft has a chance to land safely on water. If an A330 or B767 were to get into trouble over the Atlantic and there was no other option than to ditch, it could land on the water and very easily not break up. It actually depends on the angle that the pilots lands the aircraft.

If you landed the aircraft on the surface of the water at a steep angle so as the back of the engines hit the surface first, then they should either fly off over the top fo the wing, stay intact whilst the aircraft skims along or rip off under the wing after the whole aircraft has touched down in the water and the aircraft is still doing some speed.

Thanks
Mike
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting Joffie (Reply 1):
Ethiopian flight back in 1994

That's actually an extremely poor example. Moments before the plane contacted the water, the hijackers started assaulting the flight crew, preventing them from making an "ideal" ditching. Planes contacting water may also occur during take-off or runway overruns, and the plane's structure may survive. This has occured numerous times, and yes, life-rafts and life-vests were used.



Quoting A320ajm (Thread starter):
If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it stays afloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?

This really depends if the aircraft is equipped with a standard evacuation slide, or an actual slide/raft.

An "evacution slide only" type device is considered a flotation device....it cannot hold many people on it. You can tell that it is an evacuation-only slide when the slide does not have things that stick out of its side (inflateable posts). Usually, if the aircraft has this type of slide, the cabin crew will open the exit, inflate the slide, and immediately detach the slide using the detachment handle. They will then command the passengers to "Inflate your vests and jump into the water". After all passengers evacuate, the crew member will evacuate themselves, and cut the mooring line.The slide is then flipped over so that the injured, young or the elderly can be placed in it.

A slide/raft has inflateable posts which allow the canopy to be attached to it, and can be wider than a standard evacuation slide; certain slide/rafts have a "side compartment" underneath part of its canopy which people will also climb into (as seen on some B767 and DC-10 aircraft). With a slide/raft, passengers will board the raft before the crew member detaches the slide. After all passengers have evacuated, crew members will board the slide themselves, and then use the slide/raft detach function, bearing in mind that the slide can drop several feet before it contacts the water. The crew member then disconnects or cuts the mooring line, and directs passengers to erect the canopy and activates the emergency locator transmitter.

Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
777fan
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 7):
777 fan,
An MD80 has a chance to skim across the water, thus slowing it down due to friction. If a skilled pilot slowed the aircraft like this, then they may get to a speed where the airframe would not break up. The Ethiopian pilot had a good idea what he was doing, he skimmed and if it had not been for his engines, he may not have flipped and then broke up. His skill saved some lives. Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.

You're probably right but let's hope it never comes to that! I'd rather face an emergency on land - at least you don't have to deal with a sinking aircraft. BTW, how realistic is it that an MD-8X is going to land in the middle of a body of water?! Is there an ETOPS MD-8X out there? I would assume that most pilots would still opt for a highway, field, etc. vice trying to skim the bird on a lake, sea, ocean, river, etc.

777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting 777fan (Reply 11):
BTW, how realistic is it that an MD-8X is going to land in the middle of a body of water?!

Does the ditching of a DC-9 in 1970 count?

From http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/dc9.htm

2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands: The aircraft had departed JFK airport in New York for St. Maarten in the Netherlands Antilles. After three missed approaches, the crew diverted to St. Croix. While en route, the aircraft ran out of fuel and the crew ditched the aircraft. While the flight crew made specific preparations for ditching, the imminent ditching was not communicated to the cabin crew. As a result, several occupants were not belted in at the time of the ditching. The aircraft remained afloat for five to six minutes before sinking in waters about one mile (1600 meters) deep. One of the six crew members and 22 of the 57 passengers were killed. The accident was investigated by the NTSB and the details are available in NTSB report NTSB-AAR-71-8 dated 31 March 1971.

[Edited 2006-05-21 10:51:32]
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HAWK21M
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 7:20 pm

The Slide is the Raft on Over water Flights.The Slide is detached by a lanyard to release from the Aircraft.The Last person on board would need to release it.The Slide/Raft has a Knife for use too.Remember on water the level of the slide & Door will be not very different.
regds
MEL
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FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 8:53 pm

They vary across aircraft types, for example on our A320 procedure would be to detatch the slide (once inflated) but still keep it connected with the mooring line, and instruct passengers "Inflate lifejacket, Jump and swim". But on the 757 we would keep the slide attatched and shout "Inflate LJ, Crawl and sit".

Also the Airbus A320 slides are just slides, so passengers will not be allowed to get on them but cling onto the straps along the sides.

To make things even more complicated we have two types of slides on the 757, slide rafts and normal slides. We won't (and hopefully never) know whats what until we use them (as it would just confuse crewmembers with unessecarry info during normal ops).

We also have liferafts (but hey guess what, they come in two types), these are to be collected and used after everyone is off the plane. They are only carried on ETOPS 757 flights (the 767 has them anyway), although MX may put them on a few days before a flight (and will tell us in advance).

Quoting 777fan (Reply 11):
BTW, how realistic is it that an MD-8X is going to land in the middle of a body of water?! Is there an ETOPS MD-8X out there?

Thats a good point, but the same can apply to non transat routed aircraft like the 737, A32X or 757. There are airports out there like IBZ, CFU, JTR, JSI and Funchal which have sea or ocean within feet of the runway threshold or in PMI or RHO cases just a few miles ahead, so if an aircraft overruns or can't climb (for whatever reason) and starts sinking it too will end up in the water. But at least there you could inflate the slides and then head them the 500ft to the shore line  Smile

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 10):
Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!

Well yeah, we are not just pretty faces you know  Wink Kidding, but seriously we are tested even before each flight in the form of a briefing just to ensure we know some emergency stuff picked at random.

Phil
FlyingColours
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aa757first
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting A320ajm (Thread starter):
I have been trying to work out this question for ages:
If a civil aircraft (e.g. Airbus A300) ditches in the water, and it staysafloat, do passengers go straight into the water down the slide, then ditcah the slide for a raft, or do they detach the slide first, then go into the water?
If the answer is they go into the water first - how can they possibly detach the slide?
If the answer is they detach the slide first, how do they get into it? (A long way to jump into the water if you have injuredrnpassengers!!)

Passengers walk onto the raft as (theoretically) the rafts are floating. The rafts/emergency slides are then detached. The Boeing 767 does have an auxillary raft that is thrown into the water and must be swam to.

AAndrew
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 14):
But at least there you could inflate the slides and then head them the 500ft to the shore line

Wow...talk about being proactive. All I would want to be do is sit in the slide/raft, relax, get a tan and wait for the firefighters to earn their paycheck by rescuing us.  Wink
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Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:04 pm

Random link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deA6DHWVsbo

JetBlue flight attendant training on A320 slide/raft boarding. As you can see, the A320 slide/rafts are bigger than the standard evacuation slide fitted on non-overwater flights, and have the inflateable posts.
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FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 16):
firefighters to earn their paycheck by rescuing us.

Some far off european island airports, only have 1 firetruck and it serves the whole island too.

I think I might just grab my camera and take pictures for anet instead, surley they would get accepted  

Actually in a preplanned ditching we may have time to cram our pockets full of miniature whiskey and well you know the rest  Smile......

Phil
FlyingColours

[Edited 2006-05-21 14:05:43]
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GCDEG
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:07 pm

With my company operating the Boeing 737 the primary evacuation routes are the overwing exits. In the event of a ditching we direct passengers to grab their lifejackets and move to the overwing exits. If safe to do so we will also open the main doors and inflate (and if necessary detach) the slides. These can be used as a floatation device. We will also evacuate this way too if safe to do so. Most aircraft are tail heavy so it might not be possible to inflate the slides and evacuate using the rear doors. As mentioned above the slide can be detached from the door. On the 737 there is a flap covering the detachment handle and when the handle is pulled twice it will release the slide from the girt bar. Then to detach the slide you unfasten the Velcro on the mooring line.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 10):
Both types of examples highlight why cabin crew are so important: they know how to work the emergency equipment for the many different types of emergencies!

 checkmark 

Nick
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Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 18):
our pockets full of miniature whiskey and well you know the rest

"Undo your seatbelts and get out! You, take the liquor kit, inflate your vest, board raft...and make something tasty!"  Wink
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FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting GCDEG (Reply 19):

Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides, and take them to the overwing exit (the R4 and the R1 crewmember) would then sit with their slides at an overwing exit, then when the time came open the hatch climb out onto the wing and then inflate the slide and yell for people to "follow me".....

Excel never told us to do that though they just said you might be able to use the L1/R1 but disarm the door first, the aft doors will probably be semi underwater so direct passengers to the overwings.

Nick, do your saftey cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture? (not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes  Wink )

Phil
FlyingColours
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GCDEG
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides, and take them to the overwing exit (the R4 and the R1 crewmember) would then sit with their slides at an overwing exit, then when the time came open the hatch climb out onto the wing and then inflate the slide and yell for people to "follow me".....

Wow! That is weird? I'll need to ask and see if anyone who flew with Islandflug went through this too.

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
Nick, do your safety cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture?

No Phil they don't. They only show Exit B (ie - overwing exits) to be used in an evacuation on water with arrows pointing for passengers to move to the overwings. The front and rear doors are not shown as being used at all.

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
(not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes )

I know!

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 18):
Actually in a preplanned ditching we may have time to cram our pockets full of miniature whiskey and well you know the rest

We always joke about that too. Just take as much from the bar as possible!  Wink

Nick
The best thing invented - Winglets!
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:37 pm

Just for attaching photos: both of the below are two different types of combo slide/rafts. These slide/rafts are only detached from the aircraft once people have boarded them. You can see the canopy on the B767 slide/raft (left), and the inflateable posts on the A330 slide/raft (right) which will have the cabin crew direct pax to manually install the canopy on top of these posts once the slide/raft is detached from the aircraft.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Filippo Pedone
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shimin Gu



And for comparison is the B737 slide, which can only be used as a flotation device. In a ditching, these slides are immediately detached once they are inflated to prevent interfering with passenger egress. If these aircraft engage in extended overwater operations, they will probably need to be installed with life-rafts.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jorge Albanese



Overwing slides, other than those installed on the DC-10 and MD-11, cannot be used as flotation devices or slide/rafts.
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ShowerOfSparks
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Joffie (Reply 1):
If an A300 ditches in the water, the engines will take up the water, and in effect the plane would break up similar to the Ethiopian flight back in 1994.

I don't even know why airline's safety cards bother with the images of the plane staying afloat if it ditches in water, as we all know, wont.

Planes like the MD series that have the engines on the back have a better chance, as the fuselage would perhaps skim the water.

You make me embarrassed to be an expatriot Australian. When the Ethiopian aircraft hit the water there was a fight going on in the cockpit, that wasn't a ditching it was a crash. In a controlled ditching the engines will break off on contact with the water. Don't believe me? Consider how easily the A300 operating AA587 shed it's engines while still in flight. I suggest you google "fuse pins" and educate yourself. You might also like to search for pictures of the 707 that ditched on approach to an airport somewhere in Africa.
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
Nick, do your saftey cards have a big "X" on the aft exits for the ditching picture? (not that many read them, much less remember them if the time comes

I've seen quite a few different carriers which have the X on the aft exits on the B737...something about the plane assuming a slightly nose up attitude after a ditching, submerging those exits....

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 21):
Yeah I remember Islandsflug gave us some weird training on the 737-400 (conversion) which was in a pre-med ditching to detatch the two aft slides

Some carriers in the US (actually, for some reason, I thought this was an FAA regulation) teach how to detach the slide package to transfer it to another door. The procedure can be exceedingly complicated on certain aircraft...like the need to disconnect hoses, etc. I think the time would be better spent making sure passengers didn't inflate their lifejackets before they exited the aircraft...and reminding them how to adopt the brace position.
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B707Stu
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 9:43 pm

I remember in the late 60's a JL DC-8 ditched on arrival at SFO. I believe it was pilot error and he just landed short. The plane floated because it was in shallow water and I remember reading the worst injuries involved some wet feet. I'm sure this incident is in some log somewhere. Comparing that to the ET incident it leads me to believe it depends on the speed of hitting the water and the depth of water as to what will happen. I think it is a tough survival to have any kind of speed, even in a horizontal position. The water will act like a concrete wall and not give very much depending on the speed, then again, I'm not a physicist.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 23):
And for comparison is the B737 slide,

Thats an MD80   I guess the slides are similar though, that one is quite small actually.

Here is a photo of a 737 slide, although its been detatched from the A/C now.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Renato Viani



Quoting GCDEG (Reply 22):
Wow! That is weird? I'll need to ask and see if anyone who flew with Islandflug went through this too.

I don't know if Air Atlanta carried on with that practice once they merged Islandsflug but they are heavy so how are we expected to lug it down an isle and operate manually.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 25):
I think the time would be better spent making sure passengers didn't inflate their lifejackets before they exited the aircraft...and reminding them how to adopt the brace position.

That depends upon the airlines' procedure, some will do it after briefing the passengers and securing the cabin and a few will do it right away - it depends if you have 10 minutes to do it or half an hour.

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 26):
I remember in the late 60's a JL DC-8 ditched on arrival at SFO. I believe it was pilot error and he just landed short. The plane floated because it was in shallow water and I remember reading the worst injuries involved some wet feet. I'm sure this incident is in some log somewhere

I believe that that aircraft was fairly new so they fished it out, repaired it and continued to fly it.

Engines are designed to shear off if they hit water, thats why saftey cards will tell passengers to either go to the end (far outboard) or front of the wing as there should be no debris sticking up that could injure anyone or pop lifejackets.

EDIT: if you look at that picture you will see how small the slide is and you could expect 60 people to be clinging to it (depending on door usage), its going to be cramped in the water (but at least you could share body heat.)

Phil
FlyingColours

[Edited 2006-05-21 15:18:12]
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
christeljs
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 10:23 pm

Any aircraft with engines under its wings is pretty much doomed, unfortunately.
Christel A Photography
 
Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 27):
Thats an MD80

Darnnit!  Smile

Quoting FlyingColours (Reply 27):
its going to be cramped in the water

It's interesting because some carriers on their safety cards recommend passengers to hold on to each other to form a ring, while others have them scattered around or clutching onto the liferaft. Not many (if any?) demonstrate the HELP (Heat Escape Lessening Position), widely accepted to reduce the rate of hypothermia...
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Markhkg
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Christeljs (Reply 28):
Any aircraft with engines under its wings is pretty much doomed, unfortunately.

Really? I know that is constantly quoted, but does anyone have anything scientific to back that up?

Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 10:42 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 29):
It's interesting because some carriers on their safety cards recommend passengers to hold on to each other to form a ring, while others have them scattered around or clutching onto the liferaft. Not many (if any?) demonstrate the HELP (Heat Escape Lessening Position), widely accepted to reduce the rate of hypothermia...

True, I can't tell you know what my companies card recommends (as we are not allowed to take any) but Islandsflug (734) want passengers to scatter around clutching the slide - strangly enough Excel (738) don't want either but instead want passengers to form circles (semi - HELP), and in a strange descision the Air Atlanta Icelandic card (took over Islandsflug) don't have people in the water, just a slide floating aimlessly  Wink - maybe they gave up hope  Smile Smile

I know my company wants anyone who can't get on a slide or attatched to one to form the circle and start singing though  Wink

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
midnights
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 11:03 pm

The main reason for the slide/raft and passenger lifevests are to mark the crash site......God help anyone who ditches in a large body of water in any type of aircraft. If you are going down in the water it's because you have a serious problem and a controled ditch with no structral damage where all can evac in a timely manner would be extremly difficult with no hyd pwr or an electrical issue or one or more engines out. Just hope the current doesn't carry the lifevest and slides(if there's a chance to deploy them) to far so the recvery and salvage teams know where to look.
 
FlyingColours
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Midnights (Reply 32):
Just hope the current doesn't carry the lifevest and slides(if there's a chance to deploy them) to far so the recvery and salvage teams know where to look

I'm not sure where you are going with that, but....

Slides will still have mooring line (although the crew will cut it from the aircraft - we aim for cutting it as close to the a/c as possible), these can then be tied to other slides (to make a bigger image from above), they also make controlling easier and crew co-ordination much easier too.

liferafts will have a sea anchor too which will reduce the overall movment of the liferaft - I believe that some types of slideraft will have these fitted too.

Granted I myself can't see an aircraft staying afloat long enough to accomplish tasks like "open door, inflate slide, disconnect slide, hold people back, get liferaft, deploy liferaft, attatch raft to ditching handle, allow people to disembark" - it will never go down like that the best way would be to get everyone off then get liferafts, inflate and set them up and connect them to the sliderafts too.

Phil
FlyingColours
Lifes a train racing towards you, now you can either run away or grab a chair & a beer and watch it come - Phil
 
christeljs
Posts: 528
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Sun May 21, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 30):
Really? I know that is constantly quoted, but does anyone have anything scientific to back that up?

I'm talking about water as in deep water. That 737 in the picture is not out on deep water and therefore it did not sink. It also loooks like it didn't impact the water itself because it's not much water behind it at all.
Christel A Photography
 
AR385
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Joffie (Reply 1):
If an A300 ditches in the water, the engines will take up the water, and in effect the plane would break up similar to the Ethiopian flight back in 1994.

I don't even know why airline's safety cards bother with the images of the plane staying afloat if it ditches in water, as we all know, wont.

Planes like the MD series that have the engines on the back have a better chance, as the fuselage would perhaps skim the water.


Not true, the Ethiopian plane was out of control, with one wing dipped, came in too fast and a terrible rate of descent. Besides, the hijackers were hitting the PF, who was the only one in the cockpit as they took the other pilot out. Both pilots survived, fortunately.

Every plane with engines on the wing is designed with this eventuality in mind. The Pilot has to land in the direction of the first swell, wings level, gear up, full flaps and nose up. The engines and the flaps are expected to detach. This detachment is supposed to absorb a lot of energy when impacting the water. Most planes are expected to remain afloat 20 mins.

[Edited 2006-05-21 18:12:10]
 
flymia
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 7):
Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.

I think your thinking of Air Florida Flight 90? The plane crashed on takeoff from DCA. The 737 crashed into a bridge which ran over the Patomic river and than crashed into the river. Only 5 passengers survived with help from others who saw the crash.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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litz
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 1:27 am

Ok, to clear some facts on ditchings ... let's look at a few ...

1) 2 May 1970; ALM DC9-33CF; near St. Croix, U.S. Virgin Islands

This plane successfully ditched (in rough seas, no less!), and floated for several minutes. Due to communication problems between crew and cabin, the cabin crew (and hence, the cabin) was not prepared for ditching. 22 of 57 pax, 1 of 6 crew killed when plane sank.

This DC9 would probably have floated for longer, except for the rough seas (which presumably caused it to ship water through the open doors).

2) 23 November 1996; Ethiopian Airlines 767-200ER; near Moroni, Comoros Islands

This is the 767 referenced in above posts. Note, however, that claiming it crashed because the engines hit the water is NOT accurate. This plane crashed because of two reasons ... One - it was landing in very, very shallow water. Two - the hijackers were wresting for the controls with the pilots. This caused the plane to bank at the very last minute before contact with the water and the left wing hit ROCKS underwater. This caused not the left engine to seperate but the whole left wing. With the right wing still generating lift, it slewed to the left and broke up.

Note also, the 767 was not configured for landing, and was going way too fast. It more flew into the water, then landed on the water.

3) 22 November 1968; Japan Airlines DC-8; San Francisco Bay

In this case, the DC-8 was fully prepared to land. The problem was, when the captain dropped below the fog bank, he was over water - not over land. Unable to spool the engines up fast enough, the plane contacted the water and gently slowed to a stop, settling on the bottom of the bay, with the water just below the level of the doors.

An interesting note about this accident - no passengers were hurt (most didn't even get their feet wet), and the plane itself was extracted from the bay, taken to the United MX facility at SFO, and returned to service with JAL after extensive cleaning and replacement of almost all plumbing and wiring.

It continued to fly for JAL for almost 20 years before being sold to Airborne Express, who flew it for another 15 years. It was retired and scrapped in 2004.

- litz
 
lufthansi
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 1:29 am

During my job training at the LH base in HAM I learned that the slides will automatically dteach from the jet if the jet sinks down. The air in the slides will pull them up to the surface. And there is a special area where the slides are supposed to crack. I'll have a look in my traing manuals. A scary thought to see a jet sinking below you and after that some slides flow out of the water... I hate deep water where I cannot stand myself on the ground.
Life starts at take-off!
 
AR385
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Litz (Reply 37):
This DC9 would probably have floated for longer, except for the rough seas (which presumably caused it to ship water through the open doors).

In addition, it is presumed because of its rapid sinking, that the fuselage under water was breached (imagine the Titanic)
 
lufthansi
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 2:24 am

Ok. This is what my manuals say:

The emergence equipment of airplanes and helicopters is described in FAR 23,25,27 and 29, � 1411 to 1415.

If the emergency exits are more that 1,80m above the ground (planes with extended landing gears) there have to be emergency slides for the passengers. There are inflatable and non-inflatable slides. The slide has to open up during opening the door. After 10 seconds the slide must lay on the ground and be ready for usage.

If the emergency exit way goes over the slats there must be slides if the height is more than 1,80m above ground (slats in worst evacuation position (should be flaps up in my eyes�)).

You don�t want to know more about non inflatable slides, so I�ll go to the inflatable ones:

It exist 2 different kinds. One is just a slide and the other is a slide and a raft. The slides have a special surface made of a thin layer of cloth. It prevents static discharge when touching ground. On big slides there are parallel slideways for to prevent the possibility to slide next to each other. Inflatable walls prevent jumping next to the slide. Fluoresting stripes guide you in the darkness.

The slides that can be used as a raft need to be blown up with a nitrogen bottle which has to be inspected regularly as it has 210 bars at 294 K (21�C). The rafts provide space for 65-70 passengers.

Slides can be blown up by means of CO2 oder N2 bottles or gas generators. Aspirators help during the process. Very big slides have Freon 22 (rocket fuel) as gas for the aspirators.


The slides that can be used as a raft need to be detached from the jet. At this time the anchor will be activated.


Here are some pics:



http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c184/lufthansi/IMG_3138.jpg

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c184/lufthansi/IMG_3136.jpg
Life starts at take-off!
 
777fan
Posts: 2256
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 30):
Really? I know that is constantly quoted, but does anyone have anything scientific to back that up?

Note that that a/c came to rest in a shallow river bed - we don't know if it would have sunk because the water wasn't deep enough.


As has been mentioned, I think the key to whether any a/c would float at all depends on whether the fuselage (particularly cargo doors) maintained their structural integrity. One would have to assume that a pilot that makes even the most perfect water landing is going to lose the wing-mounted engines upon contact with the surface of the water. The argument could then be made that wing-mounted engined a/c could float longer because they have a larger wing area. This contention could easily be countered by claiming that even if the engines detached, they would create holes in the wing that would allow water to seep in - an even more tenuous situation.

IMO, most a/c would float for some time before ultimately filling with water the point is to jst get the hell out as soon as you can!

777fan
DC-8 61/63/71 DC-9-30/50 MD-80/82/83 DC-10-10/30 MD-11 717 721/2 732/3/4/5/G/8/9 741/2/4 752 762/3 777 A306/319/20/33 AT
 
WesternA318
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 10):
Planes contacting water may also occur during take-off or runway overruns, and the plane's structure may survive.

Wasnt there a DC-10 in BOS that over ran the runway?
 
GBOAD
Posts: 5
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 3:59 am

Gentlemen,

The design of any slide/raft is governed by a FAA Technical Standard Order, TSO-C69c.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...416c286256dc1005384a0!OpenDocument

All widebody commercial aircraft (including the A380!) are required to provide raft seating for the full crew and passenger headcount. For just about every airliner flying today the floatation is provided by the evacuation slide.

Lufthansi's DC-10 illustration shows an old-style slide with 'pontoons' to accomodate extra raft passengers. It meets the old requirements (TSO-C69a, I believe), but that kind of design could never meet today's stringent 25 knot wind test requirements for deployment of the slide. All modern aircraft accomodate the passengers on the slides, and make up any shortfall with additional 10, 25 or 40-person rafts.

Litz's list is very good, here are a couple more incidents involving the use slide/rafts: the China air 747 runway overrun in Hong Kong, and a similar incident involving an AF 747. I have some good photos, but can't seem to figure out how to post them. If someone would be kind enough to host them for me I will gladly email them.
 
Spark
Posts: 421
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 5:45 am

Personally I think airlines give the raft information because they don't want to say "In the unlikely event of a water landing;- - - - - We die."

BTW, if a plane is going down and the pilot can't make it to an airport, does the pilot try to ditch it in the water, or a deserted piece of land?
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Lufthansi (Reply 38):
During my job training at the LH base in HAM I learned that the slides will automatically dteach from the jet if the jet sinks down.

I think you do need to detach the slide first...then you get the mooring line...which will then break after the plane goes down, although most carriers want their cabin crew to cut it ASAP. The mooring line needs to be something like 20 feet in length and have a breaking strength of about 500 lbs for the typical "lift flap, pull handle" device.

Does anyone know if B737s have "Escape tapes" or "life lines" to attach to the wing to help with a ditching evacuation? I know that the B747 (above the cabin attendant's seat), B767 (in the window frame), MD-80 (in the window frame) and A320 series have them (in the overhead bin), but I wasn't sure if the 737 did.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1343
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RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 7):
Also, wasn't there a crash where an aircraft took off but ice in his wings brought him down into a river. The aircraft held together pretty well and many passengers and crew survived.

Are you referring to Air Florida 90? That crashed on take-off from Washington National- DCA, in the winter of 1982. One crew member, a FA in the back and a handful of passengers survived, as they were assisted by motorists stuck on the bridges leaving DC. Also several people on the 14th St bridge were killed due to the accident- the aircraft did not hold together, it wasn't a ditch but a stall.

[Edited 2006-05-22 00:48:11]
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 15):
The Boeing 767 does have an auxillary raft that is thrown into the water and must be swam to.

May depend on the airline. We have no auxiliary rafts on our 767s. At CO, our 767-200s have 4 dual lane slide rafts, one at each door and our 767-400s have 6 dual lane slide rafts one each at 1L, 1R, 2L, 2R, 4L and 4R. Doors 3L and 3R have single lane slides which can be used as a flotation device, if need be.

The auxiliary rafts can be found, at least on CO equipment, on our 757-200s, 757-300s, SOME 737-300s, 737-700s, 737-800s and 737-900s.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 45):
Does anyone know if B737s have "Escape tapes" or "life lines" to attach to the wing to help with a ditching evacuation? I know that the B747 (above the cabin attendant's seat), B767 (in the window frame), MD-80 (in the window frame) and A320 series have them (in the overhead bin), but I wasn't sure if the 737 did.

Our 737-300/500/700s have them. Our 737-800/900s have them in the aft most window exit on each side.

Hope this helps.
You can't cure stupid
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 46):
Also several people on the 14th St bridge were killed due to the accident- the aircraft did not hold together, it wasn't a ditch but a stall.

For the case of Air Florida Flight 90...

Let me also point out that only 1 life-vest was used...it was found by a flight attendant, who gave it to another passenger to use. The woman who used this vest would have died if she had not worn it...she was the one who let go of the rescue strap while the helicopter was trying to pull away, fell into the water, and had to be rescued by a bystander.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
Markhkg
Posts: 838
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:13 pm

RE: Emergency Landing On Water - The Slides

Mon May 22, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 47):
Our 737-300/500/700s have them. Our 737-800/900s have them in the aft most window exit on each side.

Cool, thanks. They are almost never shown on safety cards!
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!

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