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keesje
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Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:48 pm

Rolls-Royce is close to signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Airbus to develop an 85,000-95,000lb thrust (380-420kN) class engine for the revised A350, provisionally designated the A370.

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...er+new+%E2%80%98A370%E2%80%99.html
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine P

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:13 pm

From article:

General Electric, which previously held a dominant position with the GEnx-1A72 (formerly GEnx-72A) on the A350-800/900, is understood to be far from convinced that it is able or willing to support A350/A370 growth as it may challenge the exclusively GE90-115B-powered Boeing 777-200LR/300ER models.

Last month FI reported Engine Alliance maybe a candidate for the "newest all-new A350" and/or A370:

Engine Alliance, a General Electric and Pratt & Whitney joint venture, is studying the revamped Airbus A350’s increased thrust requirement. A GP7000 technical team is to meet Airbus “to understand its requirements”, says P&W Large Commercial Engines president Steve Heath.

“I see no reason why we couldn’t take the technology of our partner GE and combine that with our low-pressure spool and end up with an extremely competitive product that could power the A380 growth and, at the same time, apply to the A350 line,” says Heath. He adds that “P&W and GE are talking to each other about this, and we’re promoting it through the Engine Alliance”. He believes the GP7000 approach will also be the most cost-effective solution. “We’ve dumped around $1 billion into the GP7000 and GE has put as much again into the GEnx. At some point common sense has to prevail.”


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+bid+to+power+revamped+Airbus.html
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:14 pm

Not surprising that GE is having trouble committing to this aircraft. They have a lot issues, from losing their pole position on the A350, competition for the GE90 family on the 777LRs, to the contract with PW for large engines. I wonder if the conflicting reports of the GECAS exec comments regarding the A350 had to do with pressure from GEAE putting the kibosh on further comments.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:28 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Rolls-Royce is close to signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Airbus to develop an 85,000-95,000lb thrust (380-420kN) class engine for the revised A350, provisionally designated the A370.

now the real messy business comes.

Order cancellations and GE getting pissed at loss of orders.

Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

Need I be worried K?
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:36 pm

Certainly an interesting development. I wonder if GE would counter by asking for exclusivity on the 787-10??
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

AF won't be excited. If Airbus doesn't offer a A358 sized aircraft, and the A370 ends up being RR only, AF won't have a GE/Airbus option for the entire 200 to 400 pax market.

But I expect GE will end up offering an engine for this aircraft, if not alone, then with PW. And AF will cry to the French government if the EU competition officials try and block a GE/PW joint offering.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
Certainly an interesting development. I wonder if GE would counter by asking for exclusivity on the 787-10??

They aren't going to get it, particularly if the Trent 1000 has better growth prospects.
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
AF won't be excited. If Airbus doesn't offer a A358 sized aircraft, and the A370 ends up being RR only, AF won't have a GE/Airbus option for the entire 200 to 400 pax market.

Why? Isn't GE offering an engine for the B787?

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
But I expect GE will end up offering an engine for this aircraft, if not alone, then with PW. And AF will cry to the French government if the EU competition officials try and block a GE/PW joint offering.

Under what conditions was the GE/PW cooperation allowed - or, were any conditions set at all? I somehow remember that some upper or lower thrust limit was set, but I could be mixing this up with something else.

Nonetheless, if Airbus doesn't come up with anything, Air France will neither have a problem nor will they have any need to go "cry(ing) to the French government"...  Yeah sure ... since Boeing offers a suitable product, there's no desperate need for an Airbus in that category.
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:09 pm

Boeing & GE struck the exclusivity deal with the GE90 for the 777-300ER & 772LR. Maybe RR didn´t like that. However GE won´t let RR get away exclusively with the A370. Maybe via the engine alliance GP7000 or an improved GE90, just not now.

from the FI article:

Quote:
In addition to concerns over cannibalising its own market, GE is stretched financially, and in terms of engineering resources, by its commitment to the GEnx, a 787 engine development programme ramp-up and a design freeze on the 747-8 engine..

"GE stretched financially" seems a Contradiction Internio, however other resources might be stretched
 
AF-A319
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:16 pm

If RR gets the prize, I hope they will perform better than for the Trent 500!
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Why? Isn't GE offering an engine for the B787?

I said GE/Airbus. Imagine the flack they will receive from French politicians if the bulk of AF's widebody fleet ends up being Boeing, except for some A380s.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing & GE struck the exclusivity deal with the GE90 for the 777-300ER & 772LR. Maybe RR didn´t like that. However GE won´t let RR get away exclusively with the A370. Maybe via the engine alliance GP7000 or an improved GE90, just not now.

RR had their own exclusivity agreement for the A340NG before GE got theirs on the 777LR.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Under what conditions was the GE/PW cooperation allowed - or, were any conditions set at all? I somehow remember that some upper or lower thrust limit was set, but I could be mixing this up with something else.

Weren't they restricted to the A380 and 747s?

Quote:
Nonetheless, if Airbus doesn't come up with anything, Air France will neither have a problem nor will they have any need to go "cry(ing) to the French government"... ... since Boeing offers a suitable product, there's no desperate need for an Airbus in that category.

My comment is only in relation to the issue of a GE/PW offering being blocked by the EU.
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
AF won't be excited. If Airbus doesn't offer a A358 sized aircraft, and the A370 ends up being RR only, AF won't have a GE/Airbus option for the entire 200 to 400 pax market.

I think the problem is with the a370-1000 only. The two smaller variants can be powered within the current thrust-bracket of the GEnx.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 7):
Why? Isn't GE offering an engine for the B787?

He said a GE/Airbus combo. Obviously GE offers the GEnx for the 787, so AF would be 'forced' in this situation to buy Boeing.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
Weren't they restricted to the A380 and 747s?

Then why is the exclusivity for the GEnx on the 747 and not a GP engine? I have no idea what the agreement is between those two.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

If the aircraft is good enough, no doubt it will make little difference. Look at the 77w with GE, they have been sold to carriers with little or no GE experience (SQ, EK, CX). If the promised 20% gain over the 77W materializes, no doubt this exclusivity will be as little a problem as the GE exclusivity on the 77W is.
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
I said GE/Airbus. Imagine the flack they will receive from French politicians if the bulk of AF's widebody fleet ends up being Boeing, except for some A380s.

Sorry about that first part - I missed the GE/Airbus combination... but since AF has been consistent in buying planes with GE engines, but has far less consistently purchased planes manufactured by Airbus, I don't think that a GE/Airbus combination has any relevance.

As for the second part - honestly, who cares? If Airbus doesn't offer anything that Air France can use, let'em scream all they want... and (yes, I know you were talking about the widebody fleet) after all, the narrowbody fleet still is predominantly Airbus, and probably will remain that way for quite a while. And anyhow - the real question is also: how much in a hurry is AF to order any B787/A350 aircraft? Aren't they still receiving A330s?
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
RR had their own exclusivity agreement for the A340NG before GE got theirs on the 777LR.

Did GE have a suitable engine (under development), wasn´t a new GEn-X powered A346E considered recently? Does a exclusivity agreement exist?

What is this odd AF - GE - Boeing - French Government discussion? Did some of the famous "a.net preference driven aviation facts & figures" sneek in?  Smile
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 12):
Sorry about that first part - I missed the GE/Airbus combination... but since AF has been consistent in buying planes with GE engines, but has far less consistently purchased planes manufactured by Airbus, I don't think that a GE/Airbus combination has any relevance.

When AF wanted to order 777s they received a lot of flack, and their CEO had to threaten to resign to get the French government to back off. They were pushed into signing a LoI for the A340NG, but they got out of that since it became RR exclusive.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
I think the problem is with the a370-1000 only. The two smaller variants can be powered within the current thrust-bracket of the GEnx.

I suspect the 300 pax model will need higher thrust engines as it will likely have a greater range than the 540 K lbs MTOW 787-10. I wouldn't be surprised if the same engine is used on both the 300 pax model and the largest model if they end up with the same MTOW.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
Then why is the exclusivity for the GEnx on the 747 and not a GP engine? I have no idea what the agreement is between those two.

There are two issues. The EU restrictions on Engine Alliance and the contractual obligations of GE & PW as part of the Engine Alliance. The EU restrictions restricted the market to certain aircraft types I believe while the contract between GE & PW prevents either of them from pursuing engines above a certain thrust level separately. The 747-8 engines are below that thrust level.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
Did GE have a suitable engine (under development), wasn´t a new GEn-X powered A346E considered recently? Does a exclusivity agreement exist?

It was time limited I believe, and it has expired. But the agreement was there. But were there any serious GEnx A346E proposals? I remember the Trent 1500 proposals, and thought GE didn't make an offer because they had a good thing going with the 777LR and wouldn't want to split a small A346E market.
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
There are two issues. The EU restrictions on Engine Alliance and the contractual obligations of GE & PW as part of the Engine Alliance. The EU restrictions restricted the market to certain aircraft types I believe while the contract between GE & PW prevents either of them from pursuing engines above a certain thrust level separately. The 747-8 engines are below that thrust level.

Thanks for the explanation!! bigthumbsup 

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
I suspect the 300 pax model will need higher thrust engines as it will likely have a greater range than the 540 K lbs MTOW 787-10. I wouldn't be surprised if the same engine is used on both the 300 pax model and the largest model if they end up with the same MTOW.

After reading the FI article again, I suppose you are right.

I guess PM must be happy with this news  Wink

I also read that Finnair is not reviewing it's purchase of the a350.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Boeing & GE struck the exclusivity deal with the GE90 for the 777-300ER & 772LR. Maybe RR didn´t like that.

Rolls-Royce was willing to share the 772LR and 773ER market, but neither GE or PW were. Since GE made Boeing the best offer, the GE90-11x won, but I imagine RR still has the technical drawings and data for their Trent 8115 varient.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
There are two issues. The EU restrictions on Engine Alliance and the contractual obligations of GE & PW as part of the Engine Alliance. The EU restrictions restricted the market to certain aircraft types I believe while the contract between GE & PW prevents either of them from pursuing engines above a certain thrust level separately. The 747-8 engines are below that thrust level.

I would imagine the EU would be willing to amend those restrictions to allow the A370 to be included (and probably try and keep the 77W/787/Y3 excluded, if possible).  Wink
 
roseflyer
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

A worse case comes to mind when RR had exclusivity on a brand new plane. The Lockheed L1011 Tristar was a partial failure because of it. Rolls Royce is a completely different company now, but that debacle caused the manufacturers to want to not get tied up with a single engine manufacturer.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

Since that's the only Airbus/RR exclusive, that's all that can come to mind.

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 9):
If RR gets the prize, I hope they will perform better than for the Trent 500!

Has the Trent 500 been performing badly? My understanding was that it is doing what RR said it would do. (That may include gulping down more A-1 than two GE90s but RR have delivered what Airbus asked for.)

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
RR had their own exclusivity agreement for the A340NG before GE got theirs on the 777LR.

I honestly can't remember the sequence of events surrounding the two programmes. Did the RR/A345/6 come first?

What is also relevant is that GE had "exclusivity" on the proposed long-range A340 long before either RR or PW got a look-in. It was only when GE walked away (I assume with their eyes on the second generation 777) that Airbus threw open the competition to PW and RR. (For the record, RR were happy to compete but PW demanded exclusivity from Airbus. When Toulouse refused, that left RR with exclusivity by default.)

Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
wasn´t a new GEn-X powered A346E considered recently?

What was revealed by FLIGHT was an enhanced A340 powered by RR "Trent 1500s". The same article said that Airbus was also "talking to" GE about a possible GEnx version.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 15):
I guess PM must be happy with this news

I'm saying nothing. Call me poker-face...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
RR had their own exclusivity agreement for the A340NG before GE got theirs on the 777LR.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
Did GE have a suitable engine (under development), wasn�t a new GEn-X powered A346E considered recently? Does a exclusivity agreement exist?



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
It was time limited I believe, and it has expired. But the agreement was there.

There is zero exclusive agreement of any sorts for any propulsion on the A340. It's simply a matter that no engine OEM has found the A340 market large enough to justify a Rolls Royce competitor.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
Weren't they restricted to the A380 and 747s?

Yes, the GP7000 is restricted to quad aircraft like the 747-X and A380. The GP7000 was initially launched for the 747-X, but the EU ruled that it can only be used on quad aircraft for monopoly-protection reasons. The 747-X was shelved, so the engine was offered for the A380.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
Then why is the exclusivity for the GEnx on the 747 and not a GP engine? I have no idea what the agreement is between those two.

Boeing wanted a risk sharing partner for the 747-8 in a simmilar manner to the 777LR program. As was the case in 2000, GE was willing to invest in the 747-8 development and Rolls Royce was not. In return, GE is the exclusive engine OEM for the aircraft.

There was also rumours in 2004-2005 that Rolls Royce was having difficulty offering a bleed-air version of the Trent 1000, because they were also well behind GE in offering a bleed-air engine for the A350.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 14):
The EU restrictions on Engine Alliance and the contractual obligations of GE & PW as part of the Engine Alliance. The EU restrictions restricted the market to certain aircraft types I believe while the contract between GE & PW prevents either of them from pursuing engines above a certain thrust level separately. The 747-8 engines are below that thrust level.

It's actually not engine thrust, but number of engines. The current (and loosely defined restriction) only allows the GP7000 to be sold for quad applications. Since the engine is so large, it was expected that the only quad aircraft with such thrust requirements would have to be a VLA. Thus, the EU effectivly restricted the GP7000 to the VLA market.

This did not bode well for Boeing, who wanted to use the GP7000 on the twin-engined 767-300ERX and -400ERX. Both aircraft were canned before they left the conceptual stage, so Boeing never had to press the issue.

If this new A370 is a quad, there will be no issue with the EU restriction. If Airbus applies this engine to a twin-engined A350 variant (or whatever), I'd expect the EU to simply drop the restriction.

Not without a bit of irony, but they probably wouldn't let their own trade restrictions bite their own aerospace industry. In the end, it wouldn't be a big deal because the trade restriction has outlived its intended goal; there is no real threat of an Engine Alliance monopoly in the long-haul market anymore.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
Has the Trent 500 been performing badly?

There have been some issues of blade rubbing that has resulted in early replacement of a number of engines. The dispatch reliability has been lower than the Ge90-110/115B

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
I honestly can't remember the sequence of events surrounding the two programmes. Did the RR/A345/6 come first?

Yes, the A340-500/600 were launched with a significant margin ahead of Boeing.

The A340-600 was launched in 1997 while the 777LR wasn't offically launched until late 2000.
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:39 am

Over the past weeks we have read numerous posters stating Boeing could fit whatever engine the A370 gets to its 773ER and compete with it on price, but if only RR will develop a next generation engine for the A370 and Boeing is prevented from fitting it to its 777 because of an exclusivity deal with GE, than that probably means there is no way for Boeing to sex-up their 773, right?  Confused
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
but if only RR will develop a next generation engine for the A370 and Boeing is prevented from fitting it to its 777 because of an exclusivity deal with GE, than that probably means there is no way for Boeing to sex-up their 773, right?

Well at 95,000 lb rating I think there are more problems in fitting such engine to a 773ER than an exclusivity deal with RR...
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 10):
I said GE/Airbus. Imagine the flack they will receive from French politicians if the bulk of AF's widebody fleet ends up being Boeing, except for some A380s.

given the single-isle A320/A319/A318's AF have, not to mention the new A330's as well as the A380's coming online, AF will be nowhere near having an "all Boeing" fleet...
 
norcal
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 22):
Well at 95,000 lb rating I think there are more problems in fitting such engine to a 773ER than an exclusivity deal with RR...

Would a 95,000 lbs thrust engine be capable of lifting an a/c that could compete with the payload/range combination of the 773ER? 40,000 lbs of total thrust seems like a big differnece to overcome even with slightly smaller cross-section and lighter materials. Is A370-1000 meant to sit between the 772 and 773 or will it be a shorter range a/c.
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 22):
At 95,000 lbs rating I think there are more problems in fitting such engine to a 773ER than an exclusivity deal with RR...

Indeed, coming to think of it: the 773ER needs an engine of 100Klbs or more so this RR engine would probably still be a bit weak for it, even if it would be allowed to be fitted on the 773ER.

I have been told there is not enough stretch in the GEnx design to push it into these 100Klbs regions and GE is reported in the FI article to be stretched both financially and in terms of engineering resources to take on any more work like updating the GE-90, so that basically means all the talk about Boeing making the 773ER competitive to the A370 is nothing more than wishful thinking then?

Is this soon-to-be-announced MoU between Airbus and RR on an all new engine for the 90Klbs regions the death sentence for the 777-300ER?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
if only RR will develop a next generation engine for the A370 and Boeing is prevented from fitting it to its 777 because of an exclusivity deal with GE

Exclusive arrangements rarely work in that way. Typically, the engine OEM signs a contract so its engine is the only option for a specific aircraft. For example, the Ge90 is the only option for the 777LR.

The reverse isn't true: Rolls Royce is not going to sign a contract that it can only sell an engine to Airbus and not to Boeing. Why on earth would they restrict the number of engines they can sell?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
Boeing is prevented from fitting it to its 777 because of an exclusivity deal with GE,

The 777LR deal requires any 777 with a MTOW over 700,000 lbs to be powered by GE engines. As it stands, the 777-300ER and -200LR have a MTOW of 775 and 766 klbs, so this current Rolls Royce engine doesn't have the necessary thrust.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 21):
than that probably means there is no way for Boeing to sex-up their 773, right?

Not quite, Boeing has indicated that 787 technology like carbon fiber wings and fuselage could be incorperated into the 777. There are surely minor improvements that could be made to the Ge90-115, as well as aerodynamic tweaks.

The sum of those improvements could keep the 777LR competitive without nearly the investment it takes to develop a new aircraft.
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:24 am

If RR comes with a new engine in the 90-100 klb range that offers significant fuel economy advantage over the GE90, GE will be hard pressed to come with a cometitive engine. I doubt that a company with the size and resources of GE would let RR takes the whole market. However, instead of developing a direct competitor, they could propose a bigger engine, one which at the low end could fit the B777-300ER, but with enough growth potential to power the Y3. They may be a couple of years late vs. RR, but this could be a winning answer.
 
slider
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 17):
A worse case comes to mind when RR had exclusivity on a brand new plane. The Lockheed L1011 Tristar was a partial failure because of it. Rolls Royce is a completely different company now, but that debacle caused the manufacturers to want to not get tied up with a single engine manufacturer.

And it left reverberations across the industry for years to come....Lockheed got ought of commercial aircraft production, the DC-10 seized orders from Lockheed, and commercial A/C history was changed forever as a result.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:37 am

This is a bit off topic, but don't count out the "A350" designation just yet...
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 24):
Would a 95,000 lbs thrust engine be capable of lifting an a/c that could compete with the payload/range combination of the 773ER?

Don't get me wrong here, I do NOT intend to bash the 777, but just as the A330 is (was) uncontested in its segment for almost a decade long, the 777 is highly praised as the best plane in its class not because it simply can't be done better, but because there isn't anything around which is better.

However, the 777 is -by today's standards- a fairly conventional design, well over 10 years old, so just like Boeing has leapfrogged the A330 with their much lighter 787, it can be assumed technological improvements have slowly turned the 777 into a bony plane really.

I don't quite remember the exact figures, but the A350-900 basically made the 772 look like a thirsty fat lady, so I'd assume the same can be done to the 773 too. Airbus and RR apparently seem to think 95,000lbs should be enough to power an all new plane in the class of the A346/773, so who am I to doubt their word?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
Exclusive arrangements rarely work in that way. Typically, the engine OEM signs a contract so its engine is the only option for a specific aircraft. The reverse isn't true: Rolls Royce is not going to sign a contract that it can only sell an engine to Airbus and not to Boeing. Why on earth would they restrict the number of engines they can sell?

You are correct, but the result for the 777 stays the same really!
It will not be the exclusivity contract between Airbus and RR that will prevent Boeing from fitting this new technology engine to the 773, it will be the exclusivity deal with GE....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
As it stands, the 777-300ER and -200LR have a MTOW of 775 and 766 klbs, so this current Rolls Royce engine doesn't have the necessary thrust.

Then it means Boeing will have to overcome quite a big disadvantage really.
I don't know what the cut in FF will be from this new technology RR engine, but if it is in the same regions as the engines for the 787 offer compared to current 767/A330 engines, I am not so convinced 787 fuselage technology, aerodynamic tweaks and minor improvements to the Ge90-115 alone will do the trick like you say.

Basically what you are saying sounds even more audacious than Mr Leahy when first confronted with a LIGHTER and LESS THIRSTY competitor. He said they'd fit the new engines to the A330 and would stay competitive. If I get you right, you're basically saying Boeing doesn't even need the engines!

Sorry if I misread you, I do not intend to start a fight, I am just trying to judge the likeliness of all those comments here on A.net who said the 773 could be improved quite easily to compete against the A370 by (amongst others) fitting it with the same new engines as the A370?

[Edited 2006-06-05 20:06:51]
 
Glom
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 29):
This is a bit off topic, but don't count out the "A350" designation just yet...

I agree. The whole A350 has been a bit of a PR disaster for Airbus. Calling this new aircraft the A370 and thereby dropping any A350 will imply a complete surrender and cancellation of the A350 program. By keeping A350, it simply looks like a drastic rethink in the design of an existing product. The PR damage is minimised at now cost (and it probably saves a lot of changing bumper stickers or whatever bumph they have).
 
slz396
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 27):
If RR comes with a new engine in the 90-100 klb range that offers significant fuel economy advantage over the GE90, GE will be hard pressed to come with a cometitive engine. I doubt that a company with the size and resources of GE would let RR takes the whole market.

That would be the case indeed, but the article in FI states GE is stretched both financially and in terms of engineering resources by its commitment to the GEnx, so I am not so sure about it as you seem to be.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 27):
However, instead of developing a direct competitor, they could propose a bigger engine, one which at the low end could fit the B777-300ER, but with enough growth potential to power the Y3. They may be a couple of years late vs. RR, but this could be a winning answer.

You mean the new engine required to power Y3, right?

I thought that after the 787, the focus would be on Y1 rather than Y3, both for B, A as for the engine manufacturers? Are you now saying Y1 should be delayed by almost a decade in favour of Y3 first? Has Airbus managed to change the agendas of the global aviation industry? If that is the case, I think Airbus will be thrilled as this is their best case scenario: it keeps the superior A320 going for 10 more years.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 22):
Well at 95,000 lb rating I think there are more problems in fitting such engine to a 773ER than an exclusivity deal with RR...

95Klb won't cut it for the 777-300ER without dropping TOW and by extension TOW limited range. But the mention of engine interchangeability between the Airbus and Boeing types in this capacity segment is very interesting to me. I've been trying to do some informed speculation of what the "new all new" A350 or A370 will offer by throwing in all of the bits and pieces of information available to us. A couple of my colleagues have tried knocking on the doors at Airbus so to speak but have come away empty handed. There's not really much info out there including amongst current "old all new" A350 customers.

With that said I'm really trying to get a good bead on the possibilities for the new Airbus offering and what it means in the bigger picture. If the thrust requirement stated is true then that brings some possibilities for A370 into a slightly sharper focus. What I think we are looking at may be something along the the lines of the following:

A370-900

MTOW: 265-285t
PAX: 300-310
RANGE: 7,200-7,700NM

Speculatively speaking, with new generation engines this aircraft may offer a fuel burn delta of 10-15% relative to 777-200ER throughout the bulk of its performance range. As a note, the putative 787-10 offers a fuel burn delta of as much as 35% vs 777-200ER. That will be incredibly tough to beat with an aircraft virtually the same size as 777-200ER unless it's a glider...

A370-1000

MTOW: 300-320t
PAX: 370-380
RANGE: 7,000-7500NM

Again in speculation, for this aircraft new generation engines have the benefit of reducing the fuel requirement for a given range, but 95,000lbt limits MTOW and subsequently fuel load for longer range above a certain point. Unless structural weight is reduced by 7-10t relative to 777-300ER, I really don't see fabulous gains in efficiency here. I would however go as far as 10% for the range I specified and wait to see what Airbus puts on the table to get them to a claimed 20% burn delta vs 773ER.

I'll not wager anything on the A370-800 however. Your guess may be as good as mine, but shades of 777-100X come to mind...

Back to the point of engine interchangeability, for the Trent 8104 development engine Rolls went very low risk and developed the engine within the existing Trent 800 architecture. This gave it 100% interchangeability with engines currently on the 777's wings. The question is weather or not this would be possible for the new potential powerplant would offer similar capability. If Boeing pursues a development path for 777, maybe they should demand itc




-widebodyphotog
 
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 25):
Is this soon-to-be-announced MoU between Airbus and RR on an all new engine for the 90Klbs regions the death sentence for the 777-300ER?

Hardly!

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
The 777LR deal requires any 777 with a MTOW over 700,000 lbs to be powered by GE engines. As it stands, the 777-300ER and -200LR have a MTOW of 775 and 766 klbs, so this current Rolls Royce engine doesn't have the necessary thrust.

Bit of a circular argument, that, isn't it? RR don't have a Trent that can do 700,000 lbs + because GE have exclusivity!
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting PM (Reply 18):
I'm saying nothing. Call me poker-face...

Really?  scratchchin  , you are usually very happy with this kind of RR news. Do you see a downside for them?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting PM (Reply 34):
Bit of a circular argument, that, isn't it? RR don't have a Trent that can do 700,000 lbs + because GE have exclusivity!

I didn't intend for it to appear circular. I was just being hypothetical for an instance where the GE contract wouldn't apply.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 30):
Basically what you are saying sounds even more audacious than Mr Leahy when first confronted with a LIGHTER and LESS THIRSTY competitor. He said they'd fit the new engines to the A330 and would stay competitive. If I get you right, you're basically saying Boeing doesn't even need the engines!

To be fair, a lot depends on what sort of aircraft this A370 will become. At this point, we know almost nothing of its actual specifications.

What we do know is that Airbus is still planning for an aluminum fuselage and perhaps from earlier indications, the A370 may even be a quad aircraft. While this new engine development would seem to contradict the earlier statement, Airbus is not incorperating every tool at its disposal as Boeing did with the 787.

In that case, comparisons to the A330-Lite and 7E7 are not entirely valid. An updated 777LR (which now has quite a market share footing) may be a viable alternative to Boeing, at least in the sense that they don't have to invest $10 billion dollars like Airbus.
 
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 35):
you are usually very happy with this kind of RR news.

Damn! I've been trying to appear impartial. Has my mask slipped?  Wink

Quoting Kappel (Reply 35):
Do you see a downside for them?

I speculated the minute that a halt was called to current A350 development that this could only be good news for RR. GE have a heavy investment in the 777-200LR and -300ER. The bigger the "A350/A370" gets the more conflict of interest GE have. Moreover, spectacular engine though it certainly is, could the GE90-115 stand up to a new design from 2006? Probably not (the technology is advancing rapidly and all of the Big Three have access to it) but GE are hardly in a position to render the GE90 obsolete themselves with something better. That leaves RR (already smarting after it becomes clear that the Trent 500 isn't going to be a long-term money-spinner) badly wanting a major role on whatever Airbus does in the post-A330/A340 market.

So, Boeing has the 777 with GE in "that" market segment and Airbus could take them on with a new RR engine. But I take nothing for granted. Either the Airbus design or the RR engine (or both) could be duds but if they both get it right then a decade or so from now they could both be reaping significant rewards.

A joker in all this is PW. But it takes quite a leap of the imagination these days to see Airbus giving PW exclusivity on their putative 777-killer. No, my guess is that Airbus and RR need each other right now and that they'll be going into the new A350/A370 project shoulder-to-shoulder, tight-tipped, fingers-crossed, breath-held, and very, very, very, cautiuously optimistic that they might just pull it off.

It's a bit early for GE to be seriously worried but there just might be a small grey cloud gathering on their horizon...
 
wjcandee
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:20 am

Now that SNECMA has 20% of GE's half of the Engine Alliance, wouldn't the EU be more receptive to opening up the opportunities for the Alliance?
 
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 38):
Now that SNECMA has 20% of GE's half of the Engine Alliance, wouldn't the EU be more receptive to opening up the opportunities for the Alliance?

"Now"? Didn't they have that from the kick-off?
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting PM (Reply 37):
Damn! I've been trying to appear impartial. Has my mask slipped?

I was only guessing because you wear that mask so well... Big grin

Quoting PM (Reply 37):
So, Boeing has the 777 with GE in "that" market segment and Airbus could take them on with a new RR engine. But I take nothing for granted. Either the Airbus design or the RR engine (or both) could be duds but if they both get it right then a decade or so from now they could both be reaping significant rewards.

Yes, I also thought that this could be great opportunity for RR, just like the 77W is for GE. Of course only time will tell if the 748 will also reap great rewards for GE, but I guess in the long run it will. And indeed, RR needs to regain some marketshare in the big wide-body market, as the 77W has now overtaken the a346 in orders IIRC.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 33):
A370-900

MTOW: 265-285t
PAX: 300-310
RANGE: 7,200-7,700NM

Funnily enough the "current" 245t A350-900 already does 300 pax + 7500Nm range, which is basically the same as your "speculation" for the A370-900.

In my view, the 285t A370-900 would have to offer 300-310 pax with 8 500Nm range to justify the extra MTOW over the 245t A350-900.
Be interesting to see what transpires.

Regards
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:08 am

While GE might be stretched right now, they do have quite a number of years to come up with something that could hang under the larger A350/A370, so I would be a bit reticent to call this a slam-dunk for RR, though I am positive they will be a supplier and a very competitive one, at that.
 
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 41):
Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 33):
A370-900

MTOW: 265-285t
PAX: 300-310
RANGE: 7,200-7,700NM

Funnily enough the "current" 245t A350-900 already does 300 pax + 7500Nm range, which is basically the same as your "speculation" for the A370-900.

I checked, that true.
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/specifications.html

How is that possible, why should an "A370" be so heavy? It would be killing for CASM.
 
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 40):
I was only guessing because you wear that mask so well...

 blush 
 
norcal
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
How is that possible, why should an "A370" be so heavy? It would be killing for CASM.

Maybe not OEW but increased MTOW which could mean better structural efficiency. Though if the A370 does have a wider cabin it will probably be heavier if made from the same materials as the A350
 
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glideslope
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 3):
Also I am not sure an exclusive RR craft works for airbus. 345 and 6 come to mind.

Need I be worried K?

Yes.  Smile
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
How is that possible, why should an "A370" be so heavy? It would be killing for CASM.

Are we not forgetting that the speculated A370 has a fuselage width a few inches shy of 777 with similar cabin dimensions? My question is how will Airbus make such a plane without a dramatic increase in OEW and MTOW relative to "old all new" A350. The increased frontal area alone warrants a minimal MTOW increase of 10% and the structure will be heavier unless the additional fuselage width is made out of thin air...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 41):
In my view, the 285t A370-900 would have to offer 300-310 pax with 8 500Nm range to justify the extra MTOW over the 245t A350-900.

If they are keeping the current fuselage cross section I would say this is entirely plausible given the thrust range. However I'm operating under the assumption that they are targeting an aircraft with increased fuselage width. If in fact they will retain the A330 fuselage then the aero for the exercise become completely different and the thrust range creates much more capable aircraft, along the lines you suggest. Sure, I'm going out on a limb by positing that they will make such a dramatic change in aircraft dimensions, but if they retain the current cross section won't they be back where they started from? Just with heavier airplanes that require more thrust than the 787-10 at the low end and use more fuel, then get beaten on cabin space by going up against the 777's at the high end but offer better economy. As a benefit to Boeing, engines that fit these aircraft with an A330 sized fuselage can definitely work on 787-10X...85Klb is exactly what's needed to get the 787-10 to 8,500nm or beyond...

Dropping enough structural weight seems to be a difficult thing in both cases for an aircraft with 777-300ER passenger capacity. At A330 size you basically have an A340-600 with two engines instead of four. To begin with that aircraft is already 8 or 9t heavier than 777-300ER, and the A370 would have to be much lighter to realize the 20% fuel burn differential. With the larger fuselage version, well it's basically the same size airplane made of basically the same stuff save for the composite wing, which incidentally did not do a whole lot to lower the structural weight relative to the larger 787's...

My reasoning for assuming the larger fuselage for A370 is that for BPR's of 10+, which is the current paradigm, and the given thrust range, the fan sizes increase to GE90-94 size at a minimum. Engines of this physical size are impractical for a 787 sized fuselage, let alone the notably smaller A330 cross section. But on a larger fuse they match up well. The weight assumptions are in part based on the reduced climb power relative to GE90 class engines, but compensated for Airbus style by increasing the wing area a bit so the plane will have lower P/W ratio relative to the Boeings. But that wing area increase comes at the expense of some weight, as always, so I don't expect there to be much structural weight difference between A370-900/1000 and 777-200ER/300ER. Basically from what's known, which is not much, I tend to think that the A370 will be very similar to 777 in size with a larger composite wing possessing greater area and possibly span than the latter.

Hey, I could be totally off, but we have not heard a peep out of Airbus with any details so I'm game for any well reasoned speculation.



-widebodyphotog
 
wjcandee
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting PM (Reply 39):
"Now"? Didn't they have that from the kick-off?

Nope.

http://www.worldlii.org/eu/cases/ECComm/1999/81.html
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 6):

They aren't going to get it, particularly if the Trent 1000 has better growth prospects.

Hmm, Boeing and GE seem to have a pretty tight relationship, with exclusivity on the 737-300 through 900 for the CFM family, the GE90 on 772LR and 773ER and the GENX on 748.

Keep in mind GE's trump card - the GE corporation's massive financial reach and financing division, and how many people's business they have their hand in, they have a lot of influence to throw around, and jet engines are a big business for them.

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