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richm
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 50):
I don't trust RR.

Great britain is no longer a place with great manufacturing or great technical innovation.

From cars to all kind of machinery they produce, everything looks crap nowadays and they don't seem interested anymore in developing engineering skills. They are giving away all their manufacturing industry.

I think you're asking for it a bit there.

It is not the UK's fault that labour costs are lower in other countries, therefore, manufacturing plants are often ceased in this country and taken elsewhere.
 
trex8
Posts: 5748
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 50):
From cars to all kind of machinery they produce, everything looks crap nowadays and they don't seem interested anymore in developing engineering skills. They are giving away all their manufacturing industry.

that could apply to the US or any nation in "old Europe"
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9316
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine P

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 49):
Hmm, Boeing and GE seem to have a pretty tight relationship, with exclusivity on the 737-300 through 900 for the CFM family, the GE90 on 772LR and 773ER and the GENX on 748.

Boeing and GE do not have an exclusive agreement on the 737-Classic or 737NG. It's simply a matter that no one has offered an engine for the aircraft nor has anyone demanded one. The single engine option for the 737 is a strong resale advantage, so everyone is content with the CFM56.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 52):
that could apply to the US or any nation in "old Europe"

Except that U.S. industrial output is up, contrary to all the politicized headlines that would make it sound like outsourcing will soon create another Great Depression...
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 626
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 30):
I don't quite remember the exact figures, but the A350-900 basically made the 772 look like a thirsty fat lady, so I'd assume the same can be done to the 773 too. Airbus and RR apparently seem to think 95,000lbs should be enough to power an all new plane in the class of the A346/773, so who am I to doubt their word?

You gotta love the fact that the new A370 is perceived as the 773 killer of the future. Whilst it is hard to discredit any claims that in this case have not even been announced and is pure speculation I try to rely on 'recent form' to guage some sort of likely outcome.

Can Airbus develop a '773ER' killer with a twin with 40K less thrust ...unlikely.

Remember not so long ago (2002) with the release of the A346 at Farborough and the 4 engines for long haul etc the then still being designed 77W was not given a chance.

History or 'form' shows us that the Trent 500 was a troublesome (blade rubbing) inefficient with a comparitively high SFC and effectively has been killed stone dead by the success of the GE 90 115B on 77W.

The A370 could possibly challenge 77W but it won't kill it and with 40K less thrust probably won't be able to match 'uplift and range'

All this is of course assuming that RR don't develop another lemmon like the Trent 500 and in fact match the GE90-115 for sheer reliabilty, efficiencey and trouble free entry into service that given all the manufacturers issues with the original 777 engine variants would no doubt leave them a little suprised.

Anyhow I still say this project will leave A short of 77W whilst leaving a large void below A370 for 787 to clean up. 787/777 is too big a range for Airbus to cover with one model.... time will tell thats for sure. twocents  scratchchin 
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1339
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 53):
Boeing and GE do not have an exclusive agreement on the 737-Classic or 737NG.

I remember reading the contrary, both from the early 80s when the 737-classic was developed, and from 1996-7, when the NG was under development. Googling and Yahooing around, I haven't been able to find a clear statement of such a contract, just numerous statements that the CFM56 is the exclusive engine of the 737. For example, the Cincinnatti Enquirer report of 1996-Dec-12 saying, "CFM56 engines made jointly by GEAE and Snecma are the exclusive power plants for newer 737 twinjets."
I don't believe they would have put it that way if another manufacturer were free to market a competitor.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 50):
I don't trust RR.

Great britain is no longer a place with great manufacturing or great technical innovation.

If you applied that to my industry (shipbuilding) you are unquestionably correct - we fell asleep and did not innovate, and consequently died (except for warshipbuilding).

Unfortunately for you, you have picked probably the worst example possible to illustrate your point. RR are a very mobile, aggressive, modern firm, with top class manufacturing skills and a high degree of innovation. Their growth in recent years is not by chance.

BAESYSTEMS (generally) fit into that category too. There are a plethora of other examples, but not for this thread.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 47):

Thanks for the reply WBP. My only thought is that I can't believe that Airbus will release a design which is 15% heavier than its predecessor, to fulfil the same mission, and then label it "better". I'll watch with anticipation (won't we all).

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 54):
Can Airbus develop a '773ER' killer with a twin with 40K less thrust ...unlikely.



Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 54):
Remember not so long ago (2002) with the release of the A346 at Farborough and the 4 engines for long haul etc the then still being designed 77W was not given a chance.

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Regards
 
Glom
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting Richm (Reply 51):
It is not the UK's fault that labour costs are lower in other countries, therefore, manufacturing plants are often ceased in this country and taken elsewhere.

Labour costs are lower elsewhere, eh? Hmm. The unions are always blaming it on more lax labour regulation, saying that given the option of closing the British plant or the European one, it is easier to close the European one because a European employee could be caught molesting the manager's 8 year old daughter and still not get fired.
 
TP313
Posts: 286
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 55):
Thanks for the reply WBP. My only thought is that I can't believe that Airbus will release a design which is 15% heavier than its predecessor, to fulfil the same mission, and then label it "better".

Quite right, Astuteman, but I find that WBP's estimate is flawed in at least
one of its premises:

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 47):
The weight assumptions are in part based on the reduced climb power relative to GE90 class engines, but compensated for Airbus style by increasing the wing area a bit so the plane will have lower P/W ratio relative to the Boeings. But that wing area increase comes at the expense of some weight, as always, so I don't expect there to be much structural weight difference between A370-900/1000 and 777-200ER/300ER. Basically from what's known, which is not much, I tend to think that the A370 will be very similar to 777 in size with a larger composite wing possessing greater area and possibly span than the latter.

Engineering does not have style, it has performance targets, and this assumption of a larger than 777 wing for the 370 (thus negating the composite assembly advantage) just because it's "Airbus style" is quite ludicrous...
If the target is to make better then 777 by a good margin, then Airbus engineers won't give a damn about "style".

On edit: adding further clarification:
The 370 will feature a composite wing and a fuselage which the at very least makes use of very light alloys (the 370 designation instead of the 350 might
have something to do with this and, in that case some of this forum's members may be in for a surprise). Therefore the 370 would be intrinsicaly lighter than a 777. If "Boeing style" (as WBP puts it) P/W requirements were
used for the 370 we would have a smaller wingthan the 777. Making the corrections for "Airbus style" P/W requirents we wouldn't have necessarily a larger than 777 wing. Indeed we could end up with a wing as big, or still smaller than the 777 wing, just not as much as by "Boeing style" P/W requirements.
So much for not being much structural weight difference between A370-900/1000 and 777-200ER/300ER

[Edited 2006-06-06 14:05:47]
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine P

Tue Jun 06, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 57):
Engineering does not have style

"Style" as it were is a figure of speech. But the assumptions are very sound and based on demonstrated Airbus concepts. have we all forgotten about A340NG? The performance targets noted by Astuteman simply cannot be achieved with an airplane that is substantially the same weight as the "old all new" A350. If they could why would Airbus now seek 85-95,000lbt engines? 20,000lbt clear of the GenX/Trent1000 range.

To my mind the thrust requirement is the tip off that they are going bigger and heavier with A370 or whatever the designation will be. In order to achieve the kind of efficiency they are touting the airplane can not have the "severe" wing loading of the A340NG's, so the wing must/may have a bit more area than 777. There is no reason to believe that Airbus will suddenly adopt the Boeing concept of higher wing loading/higher power loading for a M.84-.85 aircraft. Thus following the Airbus philosophy I estimate MTOW's based on the thrust range and other factors. The ranges are dependant on how light they can make the planes structurally, but Airbus has not yet demonstrated that they can make specifically lighter airplanes relative to the Boeing concept...



-widebodyphotog

[Edited 2006-06-06 13:52:12]
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 57):
Engineering does not have style, it has performance targets

Sounds like a snippet from a magement seminar to me. Being part of the real world, I'd challenge both halves of your statement.  duck 
 
TP313
Posts: 286
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 58):
have we all forgotten about A340NG?

The 370-1000 is wider so it should have way better structural efficiency than the 340.

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 58):
The performance targets noted by Astuteman simply cannot be achieved with an airplane that is substantially the same weight as the "old all new" A350. If they could why would Airbus now seek 85-95,000lbt engines? 20,000lbt clear of the GenX/Trent1000 range.

Who says that Trent 1700 engines won't be adopted in the 370, at least for the 800? Are the 787-1000 engines rated that much below 85,000?
The way I see it will be: Trent 1700 derivative for the 800, new RR 85,000 for the 900 and new RR 95,000 for the 1000

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 58):
The ranges are dependant on how light they can make the planes structurally, but Airbus has not yet demonstrated that they can make specifically lighter airplanes relative to the Boeing concept...

Read if you please the further clarifications in the reply above. If their (Airbus)engineering target is making a lighter airplane than an early 90's Boeing concept, then it is one not that difficult to achieve...
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 59):
Sounds like a snippet from a magement seminar to me. Being part of the real world, I'd challenge both halves of your statement.

Well, in the project where I work engineering does not have style. It is not in an auditorium for seminars but I think it is definetly a part of the real world:
http://atlaseye-webpub.web.cern.ch/a...b/web-sites/pages/UX15_webcams.htm

I know, it's kind of ugly... but then maybe it's the reason why I think there is no style in engineering
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 60):
The 370-1000 is wider so it should have way better structural efficiency than the 340

Not speaking about structural efficiency per se. More to the point of the particulars of the wing that will be needed to perform to the desired level on the weight of aircraft I specified.

Quoting TP313 (Reply 60):
Who says that Trent 1700 engines won't be adopted in the 370, at least for the 800? Are the 787-1000 engines rated that much below 85,000?
The way I see it will be: Trent 1700 derivative for the 800, new RR 85,000 for the 900 and new RR 95,000 for the 1000

Immaterial to the point. The point is not what architecture the engines will be derived from, it is the fact that the thrust requirement is now 20,000lbt higher than the 787 range. This suggest a substantially heavier aircraft�

Quoting TP313 (Reply 60):
Read if you please the further clarifications in the reply above. If their (Airbus)engineering target is making a lighter airplane than an early 90's Boeing concept, then it is one not that difficult to achieve...

Who says their target is making a lighter aircraft??? As I said previously they would not need more thrust if they were making a lighter aircraft. if you want to argue that the mass fraction of fuel will be increased and structural weights will remain about the same for A370 relative to the "old all new" A350, I'm willing to go down that road. But that does imply that the fuselage will not substantially change, even so, one way or the other higher thrust requirements mean higher MTOW's...



-widebodyphotog
 
manzoori
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 50):
I don't trust RR.

Great britain is no longer a place with great manufacturing or great technical innovation.

From cars to all kind of machinery they produce, everything looks crap nowadays and they don't seem interested anymore in developing engineering skills. They are giving away all their manufacturing industry.

It seems Aither's post has been deleted as I can only see the quotes. Anyhoo...

You don't trust RR? A very curious statement! What is it about Rolls-Royce that you don't trust I wonder?

You go on to say that GB is no longer a place for "... great technical innovation." Again, you base this statement on what?

And then "...everything looks crap..." again a very odd statement. Says who? You? or is the entire world agreed that all engineering output from the UK looks "crap"?

I think you're nothing more than a troll... best leave the discussion to the big boys eh!

Rez
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting TP313 (Reply 61):
Well, in the project where I work engineering does not have style

I have to say that after 25 years in specialist engineering, I am quite happily convinced that engineering definitely has "style", both in the literal "styling" aspect, and in particular the way that organisations go about their business.

The ultimate objective of a business is to make money.
Airbus's style (up to now) has been to trade product cost over product performance (i.e their planes are cheaper to make, but slightly heavier for a given mission, in the belief that it was the most profitable approach.
Boeing's style (up to now) has been the opposite, but for the same reason
.
These statements criticise neither the product designers or the production engineers of either firm. Those people operate within the business strategy set out by the firm's leaders, a strategy which defines their style  Smile.

Happy stylish engineering  Smile

Regards
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 58):
The performance targets noted by Astuteman simply cannot be achieved with an airplane that is substantially the same weight as the "old all new" A350

I guess what I was driving at is that I would expect to see 15% more "performance" from an aircraft 15% heavier, all other things being equal.

Regards
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 62):
Immaterial to the point. The point is not what architecture the engines will be derived from, it is the fact that the thrust requirement is now 20,000lbt higher than the 787 range. This suggest a substantially heavier aircraft

Not immaterial at all, for I'm suggesting that the 800 version will use an engine
with about the same thrust as the "old 358", a Trent 1700 v2.0 if you wish, That the 900 will use engines just slightly higher rated (85,000 lb) than the 787-10 and that the 370-1000 will use 95,000 lb engines which leads me to believe that the 370-1000 will be substantialy lighter than the 773 ER

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 62):
I said previously they would not need more thrust if they were making a lighter aircraft

A lighter aircraft than the 777, not the 787. And the thrust ranges that I'm suggesting for each variant would imply a 370-800 and a 370-900 that are slightly heavier in terms of OEW than the 787-9 and the -10, respectively, and a 370-900 and -1000 that are substantialy lighter than the 772ER and the 773ER.
How can that be achieved? Well maybe it could be the feature that possibly distinguishes a 370 from a 350, and I'm not talking numbering issues or cross-section widths here...  
We'll see...

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 64):
Those people operate within the business strategy set out by the firm's leaders, a strategy which defines their style

As I see it, good engineering implies that if a strategy or a "style" gets in the way of obtaining the required performance goals, then other solutions are researched.

[Edited 2006-06-06 16:24:29]

[Edited 2006-06-06 16:31:52]
 
Dougloid
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 64):
I have to say that after 25 years in specialist engineering, I am quite happily convinced that engineering definitely has "style", both in the literal "styling" aspect, and in particular the way that organisations go about their business.

The ultimate objective of a business is to make money.
Airbus's style (up to now) has been to trade product cost over product performance (i.e their planes are cheaper to make, but slightly heavier for a given mission, in the belief that it was the most profitable approach.
Boeing's style (up to now) has been the opposite, but for the same reason

I'm not an engineer but I was an aircraft engine mechanic for a number of years, and my Old Man toted around his degree from MIT for 61 years.

I think from the conversations I had with him that there is something essentially elegant and stylish and sort of Zen in engineering well done. Of course, he had the soul of an artist.

One of the better exponents of the engineering as art notion is Henry Petroski, the writer and professor. His book on the history of pencils is wonderful reading.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 55):
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 54):
Remember not so long ago (2002) with the release of the A346 at Farborough and the 4 engines for long haul etc the then still being designed 77W was not given a chance.

Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Very familiar Astuteman and no engine I can think of has been relegated to also ran status as fast as the Trent 500. The 340NG bombed majorly(10% fuel burn) and therefore your honour.... I rest my case...  scratchchin 
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 66):
A lighter aircraft than the 777, not the 787. And the thrust ranges that I'm suggesting for each variant would imply a 370-800 and a 370-900 that are slightly heavier in terms of OEW than the 787-9 and the -10, respectively, and a 370-900 and -1000 that are substantially lighter than the 772 and the 773ER.
How can that be achieved? Well maybe it could be the feature that possibly distinguishes a 370 from a 350, and I'm not talking numbering issues or cross-section widths here...
We'll see...

I'm skeptical of the idea that "A370" will be substantially lighter than any 777. The "old all new" A350-900 was only 7t lighter by structure than the much larger 777-200ER and 6t heavier than any iteration of the proposed 787-10 I've seen. Are you asking me to believe that Airbus is now going to make a plane basically the same size as 777 but make is as light or lighter than the "old all new" A350 using the same bill of materials? This strains credulity at best given the history at Airbus...it would mean they've ended the compromise concept that Asuteman remarked upon and engaged an entirely new concept of airplane engineering. I'm not saying it's impossible but I don't think that they have come around to that way of thinking as a company, in two months...



-widebodyphotog
 
User avatar
PM
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 68):
no engine I can think of has been relegated to also ran status as fast as the Trent 500. The 340NG bombed majorly(10% fuel burn)

What does "10% fuel burn" mean? the Trent 500 burns 10% more than RR promised?
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting PM (Reply 70):
What does "10% fuel burn" mean? the Trent 500 burns 10% more than RR promised?

I think that he means the the Trent 500 A340-600 engine/airframe combination burns 10% more fuel on a specific basis than 777-300ER/GE90-115B, and that the latter combination has sold substantially more frames in much less time than the former...


-widebodyphotog
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 69):
I'm skeptical of the idea that "A370" will be substantially lighter than any 777. The "old all new" A350-900 was only 7t lighter by structure than the much larger 777-200ER and 6t heavier than any iteration of the proposed 787-10 I've seen. Are you asking me to believe that Airbus is now going to make a plane basically the same size as 777 but make is as light or lighter than the "old all new" A350 using the same bill of materials? This strains credulity at best given the history at Airbus...it would mean they've ended the compromise concept that Asuteman remarked upon and engaged an entirely new concept of airplane engineering. I'm not saying it's impossible but I don't think that they have come around to that way of thinking as a company, in two months...

Unless becoming the laughingstock of the entire industry over the whole A-350 fiasco has caused enough embarrassment internally to go to a composite fuselage.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 69):

I'm skeptical of the idea that "A370" will be substantially lighter than any 777. The "old all new" A350-900 was only 7t lighter by structure than the much larger 777-200ER and 6t heavier than any iteration of the proposed 787-10 I've seen. Are you asking me to believe that Airbus is now going to make a plane basically the same size as 777 but make is as light or lighter than the "old all new" A350 using the same bill of materials? This strains credulity at best given the history at Airbus...it would mean they've ended the compromise concept that Asuteman remarked upon and engaged an entirely new concept of airplane engineering. I'm not saying it's impossible but I don't think that they have come around to that way of thinking as a company, in two months...

Don't underestimate the shock value that Airbus has taken the last few months. If, as theorized, the German side of Airbus is now ascendent after Chirac's poor power play at EADS last year there could have been a fairly massive shift of thinking.

All that being said, I really don't think we will see a plane that offers a 15% boost over the 777. My guess is more in the 5% improvement. Airbus is practically daring Boeing to see how fast they can take the new composite technology and spread it across their fleet.

Boeing has proven in the past that they can manage three programs at once. Can they still?
 
TP313
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 69):
it would mean they've ended the compromise concept that Asuteman remarked upon and engaged an entirely new concept of airplane engineering.

What I am saying is that if that is what is required for Airbus to reach the goal of a plane 20% more efficient than the 777, than that is what they will try to do.
And what I've been hinting at is that, for the bill of materials of the 370, all bets are off, considering they are proposing a plane for the 773ER market and the engines being consider have a top thrust of 95,000 lb. This indicates an MTOW more than 12% lower then the 773ER ("Boeing style" the MTOW would have to be 17% lower!)

[Edited 2006-06-06 17:41:17]
 
User avatar
PM
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 71):
I think that he means the the Trent 500 A340-600 engine/airframe combination burns 10% more fuel on a specific basis than 777-300ER/GE90-115B

Because the engine was badly designed or built? Does it use more fuel that RR promised or Airbus expected?

What I'm getting at is, is the A340/Trent500 combination an example of bad designs that underperform or a fine engine and airframe that have simply been bested by a still better combination? (And let's not mention how different things might have looked had the oil price not soared.)

I'll accept that Airbus "got it wrong" in terms of guessing who would be buying what by 2006 but not that they have produced a "bad" aeroplane. And as for RR, they just delivered what Airbus asked for. It's a bit rich blaming them because the 777 twin is more economical.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 74):
What I am saying is that if that is what is required for Airbus to reach the goal of a plane 20% more efficient than the 777, than that is what they will try to do.

Of course, this assume that the 20% goal is something Airbus believes they can seriously achieve, and not just PR to generate interest in the plane because it is now sized to compete against the 777.

The newer engines the plane will have will undoubtedly be more efficient then the older GE90, Trent 800 and PW400 series on current 772s, 773s and 772ERs, but aircraft structure weight is going to play a role in just how much payload the new Airbus plane will be able to carry, and since part of that payload will be fuel, how far it can go.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting PM (Reply 75):
What I'm getting at is, is the A340/Trent500 combination an example of bad designs that underperform or a fine engine and airframe that have simply been bested by a still better combination? (And let's not mention how different things might have looked had the oil price not soared.)

Despite the in service problems with the Trent 500 I have no qualms with R-R. As a concept I believe the three shaft modular engine is the way to go considering the performance demands of the new generation of HBPR engines and I have indicated this to some detail in other threads.

Trent 500 has suffered a substantial numbers of unscheduled removals in service and dispatch reliability of A340NG has suffered relative to the competition. The specifics of one engine variant aside the Rolls concept is very good and will sustain their presence for the long term.



-widebodyphotog
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine P

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting PM (Reply 75):

I'll accept that Airbus "got it wrong" in terms of guessing who would be buying what by 2006 but not that they have produced a "bad" aeroplane. And as for RR, they just delivered what Airbus asked for. It's a bit rich blaming them because the 777 twin is more economical.

PM, I think that is what most people on A.net believe....not that the A346 is a bad plane in any stretch of the imagination, or that Airbus/RR failed in its goals, but rather that the 777-300ER just happened to be more efficient...I think part of it was just chance....certainly no one was expecting the price of oil to be north of $50, and definitely not $70......

if the price of oil was where it was 3-4 years ago ($35-$40), the A346 would still be selling in droves....

some people here probably belive that carriers such as IB, LH, VS, SA,TG who are flying the A346 are losing money, and that is definitely not the case....

and the A346 is a beauty too... Smile
 
kappel
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 78):
and the A346 is a beauty too...

wow.. never thought i hear you say that!!  champagne  Being such a big 777 fan. I think it's a fantasic looking plane, but I love trijets and quads.
Indeed, it is not a matter that the a346 is a really bad plane, but with current oil prices, airlines are quicker to choose the aircraft that uses less fuel. In the past the lower price of the a346 could compensate for this difference, but those days are long gone. That's I believe also why Airbus believed the 787 was not a big threat, because at the oil prices of the time it wasn't. How things have changed!!!
 
astuteman
Posts: 7507
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 78):
if the price of oil was where it was 3-4 years ago ($35-$40), the A346 would still be selling in droves....

D'you know, I think you're dead right.
I quite strongly believe that the A345/6 (and the Trent 500) were well designed for the market that existed at that time, and specifically, designed as low-cost, low risk approach to that higher capacity.

As you say, if oil prices had stayed the same, the A345/6 would sell well.
If oil was $10/barrel, the 777 wouldn't get a look in.
But it isn't, and Airbus have to accept criticism for not anticipating the rise in fuel prices, and therefore being too conservative with the design paradigm for this class of aircraft.

Quoting PM (Reply 75):
And as for RR, they just delivered what Airbus asked for

That's absolutely my take on the situation too  Smile

Regards
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 79):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 78):
and the A346 is a beauty too...

wow.. never thought i hear you say that!! champagne Being such a big 777 fan. I think it's a fantasic looking plane, but I love trijets and quads.
Indeed, it is not a matter that the a346 is a really bad plane, but with current oil prices, airlines are quicker to choose the aircraft that uses less fuel. In the past the lower price of the a346 could compensate for this difference, but those days are long gone. That's I believe also why Airbus believed the 787 was not a big threat, because at the oil prices of the time it wasn't. How things have changed!!!

hey...don't blame me for speaking the truth.... Smile

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 80):
But it isn't, and Airbus have to accept criticism for not anticipating the rise in fuel prices, and therefore being too conservative with the design paradigm for this class of aircraft.

I can't blame Airbus in this......they made a very good decision in designing/building the A345/A346.....along with the A319/20/21 and A330, A400M, they had a very good portfolio......the A345/A346 would have held quite a bit on its own, even possibly lead the 777-300ER and 777-200LR models in terms of sales...

my majour gripe with Airbus is the hubris of management (something which is improving with Gustav at the helm), and their decision to build the A380, though its a technological marvel, its a plane not really needed, and I don't see it being the "cash cow" they hoped it would become.....
 
kappel
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Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 81):
my majour gripe with Airbus is the hubris of management

Agreed, Airbus management is making the same mistakes Boeing management made untill not so long ago. Too bad people are incapable of learning from others mistakes. The a380 will still have to prove itself, as slowly but surely the airlines with 744 will need to replace those as the approach the 20 year mark. IMHO it will need 5 years to see if it has really failed or not (at least). I hope it will be a great succes (along with the 748, I'm a big 747 fan), but only time will tell.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting AF-A319 (Reply 9):
If RR gets the prize, I hope they will perform better than for the Trent 500!

You are right about that  checkmark  yes  Hopefully RR get it right this time!!!
 
astuteman
Posts: 7507
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 81):
I can't blame Airbus in this......they made a very good decision in designing/building the A345/A346.....along with the A319/20/21 and A330, A400M, they had a very good portfolio......the A345/A346 would have held quite a bit on its own, even possibly lead the 777-300ER and 777-200LR models in terms of sales...

It's nice to hear comments like this, Jacobin - thanks.
I guess I've been working for over a decade now to convince my business that despite the apparrent lack of competition (for nuclear submarines), we'd get caught out if we were complacent. Guess what - Astute gets hit for a 3 year delay and a 25% cost overrun (it's a bit more complex than that, but then, isn't it always in these types of businesses...?).
So I'm sensitive to organisations that take their existing environment for granted.

I totally agree that the Airbus portfolio was pretty robust until the oil prices spiked.

Quoting Kappel (Reply 79):
That's I believe also why Airbus believed the 787 was not a big threat, because at the oil prices of the time it wasn't. How things have changed!!!

Maybe it's a timing thing, but Boeing seem to have been more prepared for the change in the business environment, and their projected product portfolio (product strategy) reflects that.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 81):
my majour gripe with Airbus is the hubris of management (something which is improving with Gustav at the helm), and their decision to build the A380, though its a technological marvel, its a plane not really needed, and I don't see it being the "cash cow" they hoped it would become.....

By definition, my concerns have to be aimed at management (although I suspect you're being a bit more specific... ).
I am pleased to agree with you, that the A380 is a technological marvel (that will soon be eclipsed by the 787 of course... ) - though to my surprise I (we) are deemed to be completely incorrect in this belief........  

I also think you will be correct, though, that the A380 will not be a "cash cow" in the way that Airbus had hoped.

Regards

[Edited 2006-06-11 23:11:46]
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Airbus A370 Could Hand RollsRoyce Big Engine Prize

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 84):
I totally agree that the Airbus portfolio was pretty robust until the oil prices spiked.

I don't think oil is the sole reason for Airbus's problems. The return of the dollar to a level slightly below the long term historical average is another part of the puzzle, eliminating the pricing advantage that Airbus had gained from the US dollar bubble that started in the wake of the post-Asian financial crisis and continued through the Dot-com boom and bust. Airbus's currency hedges will run out eventually, and large long term aircraft acquisition deals can't be as aggressively discounted (unless Airbus outsources more out of the Euro area, or into lower cost areas of the Eurozone).

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 84):
Maybe it's a timing thing, but Boeing seem to have been more prepared for the change in the business environment, and their projected product portfolio (product strategy) reflects that.

Well, I think that it was because Boeing's Yellowstone study was aimed at trying to improving their portfolio by creating aircraft models that help airlines cut their largest cost centers. Prior to the run up in oil prices, airlines in wealthy, high labor cost countries like AA had 10% of their costs in fuel, and the rest was labor, capital and other supplies and equipment. Cutting fuel costs by 20% doesn't do as much as cutting other parts of the pie like labor and capital costs. Hence Boeing offered the Sonic Cruiser, which promised to keep fuel costs constant and allow reduced crew time and possibly better fleet utilization due to the higher speed. With fuel now representing 30% of AA's costs, a 20% reduction in fuel requirements has much larger impact on operating costs.

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