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FWAERJ
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:00 am

Like many people here on a.net, I've been thinking about the Wright Amendment many times. Personally, I think that Wright should be repealed, but I'll save that for another topic or when this post gets hot (whichever comes first).

However, a few people here have brought up a topic that interests me. As we all know, WN flies 737-300/500/700s out of DAL, while AA mainline uses the MD-80 out of the same airport.

And, as we all know, a certAAin group wants us to "stop and think" about the noise effects. I have done that, and the answer is here: All of WN's 737s are Stage 4 compliant, while none of AA's Mad Dogs are.

According to the horse's mouth (the City of Dallas), the average AA MD-80 generates 83.1 decibels on takeoff from Love Field, while the average WN 737-300/700 generates 75.6/75.1 decibels on takeoff from the same airport. And that's without winglets on the Dash 700s.

Right now, AA's plAAnes rank #22 on the noise list while Herb's boys are at #11. But imagine if AA had the same amount of flights at DAL that WN does today, and AA's Mad Dogs would probably rank the highest.

In my opinion, if American was really concerned about noise at DAL like they say they are, they should have scheduled Stage 4-compliant jets such as 737-800s instead of MD-80s. I also think that any compromise to Wright should require that all commercial scheduled flights out of DAL be operated by Stage 4-compliant aircraft... heck, AA could add the new Stage 4 hushkits to their Mad Dogs and call it a day.

Let the luvfest begin...  Wink
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5499
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RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:52 am

Well, the issue here I think is capacity. And the fact that no one except the residents really cares about noise.
The 738 is too much plane for Love Field. As it turns out, the MD-80 is apparently too much plane, too. But it's the smallest plane in AA's mainline fleet. So, even though they can't fill it, they're stuck. One of their selling points is having a FIRST CLASS CABIN... something WN can't offer. So they're stuck flying MD-80s, even though it's too much capacity.
Tomorrow's flight 2582 looks about half full... why on earth put a 738 on the flight?
 
chris133
Posts: 220
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RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 1):
FIRST CLASS CABIN... something WN can't offer

"can't"? Thats a good one. All Wn would have to do loosen some bolts and change some seats and then the fun would begin.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Thread starter):
In my opinion, if American was really concerned about noise at DAL like they say they are, they should have scheduled Stage 4-compliant jets such as 737-800s instead of MD-80s. I also think that any compromise to Wright should require that all commercial scheduled flights out of DAL be operated by Stage 4-compliant aircraft... heck, AA could add the new Stage 4 hushkits to their Mad Dogs and call it a day.

In the minds of some (mine included), the very fact that AA decided to deploy MD-80s at Love instead of 738s pretty much invalidates their "noise" issue, both directly, and from a proxy group like the AA-funded Stop-and-Think, as well as "The Committee to Protect the Children". Think about it: S-A-T complains about noise (complete with all the overly-emotionalized hoo-haa) and then miraculously, S-A-T's corporate benefactor ($1.5M so far) "delivers" that noise. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy. Their actions also flunk the common sense test, namely: "If the noise effects of increased airline flights are really so absolutely horrible, wouldn't AA (as a good corporate citizen) choose to not bring MD-80s into Love?" Accordingly, one could reasonably conclude that (A) noise is really not a critical issue after all, or (B) that AA just doesn't care, hence the MD-80s. Personally, I think it's "A".

All of this also conveniently ignores the fact airliners (in general) are quieter than many of the corporate aircraft and night time freighters. Funny how they never seem mention that. Looking at the CTPTC's flyer, one gets the idea that only Canyon Blue 737s make noise, and that the other airlines, corporate aircraft, and freighters all have some magic cloaking device that renders them silent.

I'm well aware that that AA has many more MD-80s than it does 738s (around 350 versus 75, IIRC), but all it would take to run their DAL-MCI and DAL-STL shuttle flights for the day would be 2 or 3 dedicated 738s. There should be no mysterious scheduling issues--we know that the flight number can't continue on MCI-XYZ or STL-XYZ due to the Wright constraints, and likewise for connections via MCI or STL. AA could make it work, if they wanted to. The point is they don't want to. If AA makes Love Field work for them, even a little bit, that's the crack in the dam that they're trying to avoid.

All that said, AA could yank the MD-80s out tomorrow and replace them with 738s, but the horse is still long gone out of the barn as far as their credibility on the noise issue is concerned. If they'd have sent 738s in the first place, that wouldn't be the case.

[Edited 2006-06-06 23:39:14]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ABQopsHP
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 10:47 am

RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:38 am

Lets face it, it sticks in AA's craw that WN is still at DAL. I guess if the noise issue wanted to be pressed more, wouldnt a SNA style (noise abatement) departure be an option? Just curious.
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:44 am

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 4):
wouldnt a SNA style (noise abatement) departure be an option? Just curious.

The FAA changed some rules back in the mid-late 1980s such that local folks could no longer enact noise-based restrictions on airports (which, of course, received federal funding). Any airport that had noise restrictions in place at the time (and SNA is a great example) was grandfathered and got to keep them. The only restriction in place at DAL is that engine runs (for MX) are verbotten midnight-6:00 am.

Anything else would have to be voluntary...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ABQopsHP
Posts: 461
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 10:47 am

RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:49 am

Thank you OPNLguy.  Smile
ABQ ops, Cactus 202 requesting you order 5 Green Chile Chicken stew for us to p/u on arrival. ;)
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9050
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: My Take On DAL Noise Issues (post-Wright)

Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:22 pm

Actually, your point was echoed by Mike Boyd in his recent discussion of why AA should just give up on the WA activities. Obviously, what AA really wants is stagnation -- no changes at all and, frankly, not to have to be at DAL. Boyd points out exactly what you do: if Wright is repealed, most of the new noise at DAL is going to come FROM AA, the very people who are sponsoring these noise-based objections to repeal and alleged efforts to get WN to move to DFW. I say "alleged efforts" because I think that they are illusory. I think that the strategy was to try to say to WN, "See what you've caused. Because of your efforts to repeal Wright, you're going to be forced to move out to DFW, which we know you don't want, so why don't you just be good boys and leave everything the way it is."

The WORST POSSIBLE THING that could happen to AA is to have WN decide to uproot itself and move to DFW. Sure, that would mean that WN would lose many of its advantages at Love (proximity to downtown Dallas, quick turnaround times, lower costs, etc.), which is why WN doesn't want to move. But, if they ever DID move, what would be the result? WN's service would now be available to the broadest possible base of folks in the Metroplex (as it is at DEN and PHL), and WN could go anywhere it wanted to go, from right in AA's backyard. AA can't possibly think that its "superior service" would allow it to price its flights at a significant premium to WN for o/d traffic, so it would have to look for yield to all its connecting traffic and bite the bullet on DFW-originating flights. You'd also probably immediately see ATA flights from DCA and LGA to DFW to connect with WN at DFW, just as they do at HOU. So, in sum, AA would now face direct price competition on all routes -- including its highly-lucrative and prized business routes like those to NY and DC -- in a much-broader (and growing) geographic market for Metroplex o/d traffic. Yikes.

Meanwhile, if AA were to really dump a zillion flights into Love, which would likely be no more successful than their current Missouri money-losers, they would face the wrath of the citizenry that they had already whipped up by their current tactics. (Heck, they're now trying to generate freakin' CARGO revenue on those loser flights by undertaking express package service at Love.)

This is basically my interpretation of Boyd's analysis, and I personally think that it's spot-on.

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