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SPREE34
Posts: 1744
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 41):
Overall, I'm reserving judgement until the official proposal is released and I can review it detail. It's tought basing an informed opinion on the itsy-bits in the media.

Good idea, saves on adreneline.

Quoting OOer (Reply 45):
Wright is Wrong


Simple as that

Yep. we need more "simple" in the world.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
steeler83
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting EELonghorn (Reply 49):
For a compromise to work, I would imagine the Board Members of DFW will have to be made happy, including the Mayor of Fort Worth, which means the DFW board gets to have a say in how the compromise will work. Of course if the WA is completely repealed, compromise is a moot point.

Quite true. I would like to see the amendment repealed entirely, but I do see this as being good news for WN. If only Illinois is removed from W.A. so that WN would be able to fly DAL-MDW, allowing business people traveling to DAL from places like PHL or PIT can travel to DAL with a stop in MDW, instead of traveling PHL-MDW-STL-DAL or PIT-MDW-STL-DAL. Right now, pax have to purchase WN tickets for PIT-MDW-STL, and then a separate ticket for STL-DAL, as well as MCI-DAL, forgot about that option as well. Going back to PHL though, I believe they already have PHL-STL and MCI, do they not, come to think of it?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
atrude777
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:51 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 51):

Quite true. I would like to see the amendment repealed entirely, but I do see this as being good news for WN. If only Illinois is removed from W.A. so that WN would be able to fly DAL-MDW, allowing business people traveling to DAL from places like PHL or PIT can travel to DAL with a stop in MDW, instead of traveling PHL-MDW-STL-DAL or PIT-MDW-STL-DAL. Right now, pax have to purchase WN tickets for PIT-MDW-STL, and then a separate ticket for STL-DAL, as well as MCI-DAL, forgot about that option as well. Going back to PHL though, I believe they already have PHL-STL and MCI, do they not, come to think of it?

Southwest told STL if they allow thru passing on flights STL could be expected to see new flights, cities and routes.

WN does not serve PIT/PHL-STL. I might see them operate it to STL to fly to DAL if Illinois is not immediatly repealed.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
steeler83
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 52):
WN does not serve PIT/PHL-STL.

I know that it doesn't serve PIT-STL, I know all 6 of the destinations from PIT and STL isn't one of them. I thought they'd serve PHL from STL, being how large of a presence WN has in PHL... Do they serve PHL-MCI?

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 52):
Southwest told STL if they allow thru passing on flights STL could be expected to see new flights, cities and routes.

Perhaps then they might add PHL to their network out of STL?
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
exFATboy
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:10 am

It's good to see that Dallas and Ft. Worth are at least talking, although my first impression is that this compromise has some serious shortcomings:

(1) 9 years strikes me as too long
(2) If the high end of the WN gate allotment (18) is taken, that's 90% of the gates, if the 20-gate number is correct. That's a little steep, especially since AA already has 3 gates.
(3) If the current master plan calls for 32 gates, why such a large cut?
(4) I can't see having an agreement that specifically says "American Airlines can't fly to DAL." Now the compromise may effectively push AA out of DAL, but I can't see explicitly saying "any airline can have the other 2 (or 5, or whatever) gates, but AA can't.
(5) Why are Meacham and Alliance getting drug into this?

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 8):
Is there any other airline arbitrarily gate limited at any other airport in the country?

I suspect whatever final agreement is reached will say "no one airline may have..." rather than "Southwest gets..." - and 90% seems too high.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 15):
A compromise would mean Southwest at least flying some flights from DFW. Barring AA and giving Southwest control of 15 to 18 gates is the same as granting Southwest a monopoly at Love Field.

Why should WN have to go into DFW? It's perfectly common for carriers to not serve all the airports in a multi-airport metro area - for example, WN doesn't serve SFO. And a monopoly at DAL is not a monopoly in the Metroplex market.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 31):
Keep in mind that even though the mayors of Dallas and Ft. Worth might reach this agreement, it doesn't mean squat until Congress approves this. The Wright Amendment is FEDERAL law, and municipalities can't simply say, "ok, we decided this" and all is over.

Well, yes, Congress will have to pass a law amending the Wright and Shelby Amendmenents, or repealing both and substituting the new law. But the Wright Amendment is an anomoly - other than the perimeter rules at LGA and DCA, EVERY other metro are in the US has settled this sort of question locally, either by setting up a regional authority (e.g. NYC, Houston) or by "agreeing not to agree" and local governments doing their own thing (e.g. SF Bay, Tampa Bay.) ONLY Dallas has a law like the WA. And, given that this has been locally decided everywhere else, I think the majority of Representatives and Senators would look favourably on a locally-agreed compromise, if for no other reason than to not get drug into the Metroplex's affairs again.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:24 am

Boy you folks have missed the boat here. The question is not only will Southwest accept the deal. Will American sign off on it? Probably not. Unless Southwest agrees to no more gates than they have now.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:35 am

There's A LOT of incorrect numbers flying around:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 18):
It is, SWA owns 23-25 gates at DAL.

No, they don't. In fact, WN doesn't own any. All gates are leased from the city.

WN opperates from 14 gates
WN has immediate rights to an additional 6 gates

CO Express opperates from 2 gates
AA has leases for 3 gates

DAL has 3 unleased, unclaimed main terminal gates
DAL has 4 unleased, unclaimed satelite gates

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 54):
(2) If the high end of the WN gate allotment (18) is taken, that's 90% of the gates, if the 20-gate number is correct. That's a little steep, especially since AA already has 3 gates.

DAL has 32 gates, 28 main terminal and four satelite gates used by Legend.

Restricting WN to 18 gates would give Southwest a maximum of 56% of the gates, or 64% of the main terminal gates. That's a fairly benign monopoloy compared to any of the major hubs in the U.S.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
steeler83
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 55):
The question is not only will Southwest accept the deal. Will American sign off on it? Probably not. Unless Southwest agrees to no more gates than they have now.

The way I see it, WN currently operates 15-18 of those 23 or so gates they currently have at DAL, according to previous posts. They currently operate about 120 flights from those 15 gates. With Wright slowly disintegrating over the course of those years, they'll gradually add more flights, probably bumping the number to 150, as someone else has mentioned before. I suppose that WN might sign on to this under the condition that they can add a few more gates in the future; if they intend to add more freqs and destinations from DAL. I doubt that this will be agreed upon by the other parties, so WN therefore might not agree to this proposal...

It has been discussed in other threads that WN would intend to go international. If and when WN does that, and wants to operate international flights from Dallas, then there might be a motion for WN to move to DFW again, and WN would probably ask for permission to build an international facility at DAL. I am sure that AA would go for that... (yeah right)
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
rwsea
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 17):
AA has had a virtual monopoly from DFW to markets outside the perimiter for 20 years.

Not true - DL had a hub there for 18.5 of the last 20 years.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 23):
There has never been a legal restraint on Southwest from flying anywhere from this region at anytime. Staying at Love Field under the restrictions of the Wright Amendment was a decision that Southwest made. Concerning your comments on a virtual monopoly held by American and the other airlines at DFW. Southwest gave them that supposed monopoly by refusing to move operations from Dallas Love Field. Can't blame the Wright Amendment for that.

 checkmark  The only disadvantage that WN has is self-inflicted because they're too damned stubborn to follow the rules everyone else agrees to. The same rules that WN knew about 20 years ago when they decided to focus on DAL and not go to DFW. I just have no sympathy for them.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:40 am

And here's another thing to think about. How can an airline promise not to fly out of a certain airport? An illegal contract is a void contract. Airlines cannot work with another airline in coordinating schedules. That's the effect here, AA saying they will pull out of DAL? Likewise, DAL cannot have some contract that says airline A cannot fly here, but others can. Again that's illegal.

I don't think this agreement has been run by the FAA attorneys yet. It's begging for a lawsuit.

[Edited 2006-06-10 01:44:09]

[Edited 2006-06-10 01:53:07]
 
atrude777
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 53):
I know that it doesn't serve PIT-STL, I know all 6 of the destinations from PIT and STL isn't one of them. I thought they'd serve PHL from STL, being how large of a presence WN has in PHL... Do they serve PHL-MCI?

I know you know they don't serve STL from PIT but I included both cities to make it easier for me to type. MCI is not served non-stop from PHL.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 53):
Perhaps then they might add PHL to their network out of STL?

They very well could be, STL-PHL is a huge route on its own without the W.A which is why we have alot of flights on it with AA and US.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):

No, they don't. In fact, WN doesn't own any. All gates are leased from the city.

Your right I talked to my WN friend and I was wrong. Thanks for the correction.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
2H4
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:59 am




Quoting RwSEA (Reply 58):
The only disadvantage that WN has is self-inflicted because they're too damned stubborn to follow the rules everyone else agrees to.

So rules are automatically logical, fair, and correct as long as multiple parties agree to them?




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
WN opperates from 14 gates
WN has immediate rights to an additional 6 gates

You're correct on the 14, but there are *7* former gates in the north concourse that are leased and currently being used as office space...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
CO Express opperates from 2 gates
AA has leases for 3 gates

Yes.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
DAL has 3 unleased, unclaimed main terminal gates

If they're no SWA's, CO's, or AA's, where are they?

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
DAL has 4 unleased, unclaimed satelite gates

If you're referring to the old Legend Terminal, there are *6*

So...

14
7
3
2
6
----------
32
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:11 am

>>WN opperates from 14 gatesWN has immediate rights to an additional 6 gates

CO Express opperates from 2 gatesAA has leases for 3 gatesDAL has 3 unleased, unclaimed main terminal gates

DAL has 4 unleased, unclaimed satelite gates

DAL has 32 gates, 28 main terminal and four satelite gates used by Legend.<<

DFWRevolution, your numbers and who has what are a little off.

WN has 14 gates in the West Concourse and 7 (not 6) in the North Concourse.

AA has 3 and COEX has 2 for a total of 26 in the Main Terminal, not 28.

The other 6 (not 4) are over at Legend's Terminal.

DAL doesn't hold a lease on any gate at Love Field. They originally subleased one from Legend over at their terminal. After Legend folded, DAL moved to the main terminal and were using Gate 21, a ground level gate in the North Concourse.

DAL was going to sublease one of AA's three gates, which were going to open in late September, 2001, but of course after 9/11 AA pulled out of Love Field and DAL stayed at that ground level gate until they left (Spring of 2002, I think.)

LoneStarMike

 
steeler83
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 60):
They very well could be, STL-PHL is a huge route on its own without the W.A which is why we have alot of flights on it with AA and US.

I just looked up round trip fares from PHL to STL for Jul 9th and 10th on both AA.com and USAirways.com, and the fares are $383 and $283 respectively. That comes down to $190 and $140 one way respectively... US already has a fairly low one way fare on PHL-STL, but I think it can go lower, perhaps $79 or $89 for a start-up fare on WN, and then up to $99 or $109 after that... Just my thought on that.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
chris133
Posts: 220
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting MaartenV (Reply 2):
I doubt WN will accept a 18 gate limit since it seems to me that they would not be able to develop a nationwide network to its full capabilities with just 18 gates.

18 gates for WN can support up to 180 flights. That would be larger than its 4th biggest station currently.
 
chris133
Posts: 220
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 13):
I can't see AA agreeing to anything that ejects them from DAL

Well they might argue for it if they are not doing well flying there and want to get out but save face. Now they can say we were told to leave and not pull out on their own
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 63):
DAL doesn't hold a lease on any gate at Love Field.

When discussing DAL (Love Field) and DAL (Delta Airlines) in the same post/thread, it might be a good idea (in this case) to spell them out so as to avoid confusion...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
Restricting WN to 18 gates would give Southwest a maximum of 56% of the gates, or 64% of the main terminal gates. That's a fairly benign monopoloy compared to any of the major hubs in the U.S.

But the compromise - if the sources cited in the article are correct - would reduce the total number of gates to 20, with 15-18 going to WN. If WN was getting 18 out of 32, that's wouldn't be an issue.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 58):
The only disadvantage that WN has is self-inflicted because they're too damned stubborn to follow the rules everyone else agrees to. The same rules that WN knew about 20 years ago when they decided to focus on DAL and not go to DFW. I just have no sympathy for them.

Not "agrees to", but "agreed to", as in "agreed to in 1979." A lot has changed since 1979, and there's nothing wrong with WN challenging the validity of the WA's restrictions today.
 
cjpark
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Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 54):
Why should WN have to go into DFW? It's perfectly common for carriers to not serve all the airports in a multi-airport metro area - for example, WN doesn't serve SFO. And a monopoly at DAL is not a monopoly in the Metroplex market.

It is called compromise. You give you get. Southwest has no intention of compromise. On another blog site in Dallas is this post. If the contents of the post is true so much for the Southwest b#llsh#t about repealing Wright in the name of free market competition.

SOUTHWEST LAYING DOWN THE GAUNTLET
Forget what that print publication cited below says. We have our own little birdie. That birdie says a compromise is nowhere near.

A city councilmember close to the ongoing Love Field negotiations - but who has not been directly briefed by the mayor - has just laid out for DallasBlog what's going on behind closed doors right now.

Here's the skinny: Southwest has given Mayor Laura Miller an ultimatum on at least one demand. They want a minimum number - as high as 16 or 18 - gates that would be exclusively for Southwest use, or they are gone. Outta here. Splitsville to Phoenix. No compromise.

Now, the problem is, current federal law says gates must be shared, so it's not something the council or the two mayors could grant by itself. It would have to be part of the compromise deal Miller and Fort Worth Mayor Mike Montcrief take to the feds as a recommendation.

So there's that, and apparently that's the one must-have on Southwest's list, the source tells us.

Second, Southwest want immediate through-ticketing on flights. And third, within two years, they want, at a minimum, restrictions lifted on flights to Las Vegas, Tennessee, Phoenix and Florida.

After those conditions are met, Southwest is saying it doesn't care about the timetable for the rest of a Wright phaseout. Las Vegas alone would keep them busy for quite a while.

Also in the mix, sources say Alliance Development's Ross Perot Jr. has made it clear that he will brook no restrictions on Alliance Airport up by Texas Motor Speedway, and so what he wants, Montcrief wants.

And then as if this weren't enough to deal with, the compromise would limit the total gates at about 20 (right now there are 32) which means Southwest would have a bit of a monopoly on Love Field. Which, if you think about it, is ironic. Moreso when you think in terms outside of "American vs. Southwest" and look at the bigger picture. More flights from fewer gates would pretty much make any new economic gain arising from phasing out Wright a probable wash, the source tells us.

More as this develops.

http://www.dallasblog.com/dallas-blo...-laying-down-the-gauntlet.html
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
USPIT10L
Posts: 2059
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:24 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 58):
Not true - DL had a hub there for 18.5 of the last 20 years.

Don't forget UA's routes from DFW either. AA has competition on every major route from DFW, including international.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:38 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 69):
It is called compromise. You give you get.

In a general sense, true, but the definition as to what constitutes a compromise is in the eye of the beholder. Just because SWA doesn't go DFW doesn't necessarily mean that SWA didn't compromise in other areas. It's your own personal assessment of whether SWA did or not, and any resemblence to the truth is purely coincidental.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 69):
Southwest has no intention of compromise.

I'll respectfully point out again that since you're not an executive at SWA, you cannot authoritatively state what SWA's intentions are, or are not.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 69):
On another blog site in Dallas is this post. If the contents of the post is true so much for the Southwest b#llsh#t about repealing Wright in the name of free market competition.

Allow me to emphasize that the operative word in your statement is "if", and since that site is so obviously pro-Wright, I'd take it with a grain of salt, just as pro-Wright folks take pro-repeal sites with a grain of salt.

The news soundbites and assumed "insiders" comments notwithstanding, I think folks should wait for the official release of the complete plan. Until then, the only thing being debated are rumors...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:41 am

This whole proposal is a bunch of crap. First of all if WN wants long haul out of north Texas move to DFW. Simple!. Southwest says this whole thing is about competition, now they get a close in business airport, close to the weathiest areas of North Texas handed to them on a silver platter. That is a bunch of crap. The airport was intended to be closed. That was the original deal when DFW was built. Every other airline agreed to move to DFW. WN should have been no different. Southwest is not a good neighborhood player. They PUBLICLY PROMISED THEY WOULD NEVER CHALLENGE THE WA. HERB KELLEHER HELPED DRAFT THE ORIGINAL WA. IMHO the airport should be closed. If WN wants to stay put fine, but there wont be any runways, terminals or any other facilities for them to run out of.


If this is the way DAL will fold out, fine. Then open up the 180-200 max flights a day, the max of 20 gates a day and divide them up among any carrier that wants DAL service. Fair is fair. LGA is slot restricted, and DAL could wind up being as well. WN says this was all about the freedom of competition. They had better be careful of what they wish for. AA will move into DAL given the opportunity and compete full force.

[Edited 2006-06-10 05:11:28]
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
Southwest says this whole thing is about competition, now they get a close in business airport, close to the weathiest areas of North Texas handed to them on a silver platter.

Why would the wealthy areas of Dallas want to board cattle-class on Wal-Mart air when they are Gold Platinum members of the AA Admirals Club?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:05 pm

OPNLguy,

Think you will like Phoenix?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 73):
Why would the wealthy areas of Dallas want to board cattle-class on Wal-Mart air when they are Gold Platinum members of the AA Admirals Club?

Because it is only 10 minutes from their woo-hoo houses and the wealthiest areas of Dallas.
 
dadoftyler
Posts: 245
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 4:16 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:14 pm

I have an idea, everyone: let's debate the merits of Hamas vs. Israel on this forum. Or maybe Al Quaeda vs. the West. Surely, feelings wouldn't run as high.  Yeah sure

OPNLguy is right. We have no idea what the actual *LOCAL* compromise *PROPOSAL* to this federal restriction will be. So let's not get our panties in a wad (hello, CJ, or D10's?), let's see what the actual proposal comes out to be on the 14th. And then after that--THEN debate the merits of it. And of the W/A.

AGAIN. For the 83,078th time.

Ya know, soon, there will be more W/A debate threads on here than there are A vs. B or NW D93 replacement threads....combined. Still reading....but let's cool our collective jets and see what actually comes out.

dot
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9305
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 75):
Because it is only 10 minutes from their woo-hoo houses and the wealthiest areas of Dallas.

As opposed to twenty for DFW?

In case you haven't noticed the growth in the last thirty years, DFW is now a much more centralized and accessible location for the 5.7 million people in the metroplex.The wealthy minority is not a significant factor in this case.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 70):
Don't forget UA's routes from DFW either. AA has competition on every major route from DFW, including international.

*ROFL* Kinda like AA competes with UA at DEN??? Sorry, the operations are not comparable. One's a hub, one's a station. UA's services at DFW are a drop in the bucket.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7700
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 76):
We have no idea what the actual *LOCAL* compromise *PROPOSAL* to this federal restriction will be. So let's not get our panties in a wad (hello, CJ, or D10's?), let's see what the actual proposal comes out to be on the 14th. And then after that--THEN debate the merits of it. And of the W/A.



Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 76):
Ya know, soon, there will be more W/A debate threads on here than there are A vs. B or NW D93 replacement threads....combined. Still reading....but let's cool our collective jets and see what actually comes out.

Fair enough...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5839
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
The airport was intended to be closed. That was the original deal when DFW was built.

Not true, though a common misconception.

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
They PUBLICLY PROMISED THEY WOULD NEVER CHALLENGE THE WA. HERB KELLEHER HELPED DRAFT THE ORIGINAL WA

Nope.

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
IMHO the airport should be closed.

Nice to know that, in the course of your efforts to kill WN, you're happy to destroy thousands of jobs and materially harm the Dallas economy.

Hint: Love Field serves more than Southwest Airlines.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
no1racer
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 7:24 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:04 pm

Maybe this hasn't been addressed, but what will happen to the feeder traffic through HOU once DAL opens up? I mean, I could see Houston Hobby losing flights and be left with a new and empty non-SWA concourse.

What effect do you all think that the opening of DAL restrictions will have on HOU and other airports?

no1racer
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
AA will move into DAL given the opportunity and compete full force.

They already did  Silly

Quoting No1racer (Reply 81):
What effect do you all think that the opening of DAL restrictions will have on HOU and other airports?

I seriously doubt hardly any. In fact if the allow ticket through flights open up I'd see more to allow more "connections"

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:42 pm

Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 76):
I have an idea, everyone: let's debate the merits of Hamas vs. Israel on this forum. Or maybe Al Quaeda vs. the West. Surely, feelings wouldn't run as high.

Add to that list whether Certs is a breath mint, or a candy mint, or whether Miller Lite tastes great, or is less filling. These issues, as well as the others you mentioned, are all critical to us as a species...  Wink

Quoting Dadoftyler (Reply 76):
OPNLguy is right. We have no idea what the actual *LOCAL* compromise *PROPOSAL* to this federal restriction will be. So let's not get our panties in a wad (hello, CJ, or D10's?), let's see what the actual proposal comes out to be on the 14th. And then after that--THEN debate the merits of it. And of the W/A.

I think it's been so long since there's been a major Wright thread (hence Cj's absence for 3-4 weeks?) that some folks just have some pent-up need to start firing off arguments at each other. Only problem this time around is that, in the absence of official details, there's no ammo--everyone is shooting blanks with assumed/rumored info, and most of that came from the media.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 8):
Is there any other airline arbitrarily gate limited at any other airport in the country?

Orange County. By extension of it's net capacity limitation imposed by a noise variance. If DAL adopts a noise variance, say closed to commercial operations between 1:00 AM and 5:00 AM with a passenger and operational capacity limits assigned to that restriction, then yes it will fly. I was surprised not to see a 24 gate cap though. This is more realistic because other carriers will want in.

The airspace can support 24 gates at DAL, the airfield can support 24 gates and the roadway access can support it. 36 is pushing it due to airspace intersection. 18-20 seems like a new mess of airlines fighting for gates.

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 59):
I don't think this agreement has been run by the FAA attorneys yet. It's begging for a lawsuit.

Not if the agreement includes the merger of operational control into a single operating agency for DFW, AFW and DAL.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 74):
OPNLguy,

Think you will like Phoenix?

Damn... That's harsh...  

I hear it's not as humid there.

[Edited 2006-06-10 07:02:55]
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
If this is the way DAL will fold out, fine. Then open up the 180-200 max flights a day, the max of 20 gates a day and divide them up among any carrier that wants DAL service. Fair is fair. LGA is slot restricted, and DAL could wind up being as well. WN says this was all about the freedom of competition. They had better be careful of what they wish for. AA will move into DAL given the opportunity and compete full force.

Actually, I think it would be better if AA let WN stay over at DAL....if WN comes over to DFW, that might create a large "turf war" which wouldn't be in AA's favour (nor too good for WN's)....let WN stay @ DAL.....I'm not so sure if it would affect AA too much if WN is allowed to fully operate out of DAL...."lesser of 2 evils" for AA is what I believe.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
stlgph
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 52):
Southwest told STL if they allow thru passing on flights STL could be expected to see new flights, cities and routes.

Smoke machine, anyone?

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 27):
Because AA has completely stated they ARE loosing money at DAL, and DAL is NOT a profitable airport for them.

No, they have not.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
if WN wants long haul out of north Texas move to DFW.
Why should they? They developed Love field into what it has become. What company in any business would walk away from such a LEGAL investment?

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
Southwest says this whole thing is about competition, now they get a close in business airport, close to the wealthiest areas of North Texas handed to them on a silver platter.
That's what competition is all about. And they are winning the competitive battle...keeping the airport that is closest to the wealthy client base open.

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 72):
That is a bunch of crap.
You may call it a bunch of crap. I call it the American way.

A level competitive playing field is a level competitive playing field which is what American has ALWAYS preached. Now AA's high-handed tactics of the past have come to bite them in the ass. Love Field is a potential goldmine regarding long-haul flights, being just a few miles from the wealthiest residents in the entire Metroplex area. AA built a fortress of a hub at DFW that is now threatened because its out in the boonies and less convenient for those very wealthy, well travelled clients to utilize.

Go Southwest!

[Edited 2006-06-10 07:03:24]
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:05 pm

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 74):
OPNLguy,

Think you will like Phoenix?

I'd prefer a state that had no state income taxes, so I'm holding out for Nevada so I can commute from Tahoe...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 86):
Smoke machine, anyone?

Whatever Gavin, I am not "lying" I am simply stating what WN said to STL, whether you want to call it BS or not thats up to you. Simply a quote, I am certainly not taking it to heart either, going to bed having wet dreams of WN starting 200 DD max at STL.

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 86):
No, they have not.

Yes they have.

Here is a link-
http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2006/02/20/daily11.html

American Airlines Inc. will compete aggressively with low-cost Southwest Airlines Co. at Dallas Love Field, said an airline executive Monday, adding it's doubtful the legacy carrier will make money flying from its newest airport.

American on Monday unveiled to the media the three gates from which the airline will operate at Love Field.


But chances are American -- which has seen a near steady run of losses since Sept. 11, 2001 -- won't make money doing it, he indicated.

"It's tough to forecast a profit anywhere in the airline business," said Cush. "My guess is it will be tough to make a profit here. ...It will be tough sledding."


"As silly as it sounds, we're not here to make a profit off this operation, we're trying to serve our customers," he said, adding later, "We're going after Southwest customers."

3 seperate times American has stated they won't make a profit. I have still heard that AA is not doing well at DAL.

now Gavin I showed my links and facts where is YOURS?!

Alex

[Edited 2006-06-10 07:41:28]
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
ckfred
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:57 pm

Here's one observation. Is the direct service that WN could offer, such as 1-stop service to LAS and MDW, going to do that well?

Why fly WN's 1-stops to LAS, when AA offers 10 non-stops out of DFW, in addition to HP/US's non-stops?

Why fly WN's 1-stops to MDW, when ATA has several DFW-MDW non-stops? Then, AA has nearly 20 DFW departures for ORD, and UA has a few.

That's around 30 non-stops out of DFW for Chicago. So why spend time sitting on the ground at STL or MCI, when the non-stop that left DFW at the same time is getting slotted in the ORD arrival pattern?
 
aaden
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:19 pm

why would AA agree to this at all?
AA can't compete with Southwest at dal. how would they compete with southwest if the wright amendment was removed?
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:33 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 90):
Here's one observation. Is the direct service that WN could offer, such as 1-stop service to LAS and MDW, going to do that well?

Just might, some people really prefer WN over other airlines.

Some people fly connections and go out of their to fly AA instead of WN, even though WN flies it non stop but AA only has connections. Hardly a moot point.

Service-Depends on the service too. WN offers more domestically and for a cheaper (FREE) price too.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
N200WN
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:09 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 89):
now Gavin I showed my links and facts where is YOURS?!

Alex, I'm very proud of you, my boy
 
legend500
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:05 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:13 pm

This agreement won't work. AA won't leave DAL, Ft. Worth still refuses to limit service fom FTW and AFW, Southwest/Continental/American Won't accept 20 gates, SWA won't wait nine years, doesn't perclude an independently-built terminal.

In short, the equivalent of no agreement. Time for Congress to get rid of it.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2815
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:19 am

This "agreement" is a joke. Fewer gates than today, a 9-year phase-out of restrictions at WN, and the fact that AA will be mad. Just do a full repeal of Wright already. Most of us know that Wright is wrong and that Southwest will move to DFW to build duplicate infrastructure when hell freezes over.

Of course, a full move to DFW is out of the question due to heavy duplicate infrastructure costs. So, DFW is proposing that traffic to states not in the Wright perimeter be served through DFW while keeping perimeter service at DAL. But, what about connecting traffic then? What if someone flying MDW-DFW and then flying DAL-OKC needs to make a connection between DFW and DAL? Would WN use buses that would take 30 minutes to an hour to get between airports depneding on the traffic? Would DFW and/or WN fund a high-speed rail link between the airports to cut the time down to 10-15 minutes? Would you have to rent a Ford Focus from Hertz and brave the traffic of the Metroplex? Remember, this isn't just about O&D traffic... WN luvs connecting traffic, too.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
KarlB737
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:39 am

Courtesy: KTVT-TV

Apparently AA can't be forced to leave DAL as reported here.

http://cbs11tv.com/video/[email protected]
 
SPREE34
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Legend500 (Reply 94):
In short, the equivalent of no agreement. Time for Congress to get rid of it.

I agree here. There are too many "ifs", "ands", or "buts" already.
Bastardizing an already bad piece of legislation, even if diluting it's effects, will only lead to future issues arising. What ever happens needs to be THE END of this issue. 27+ years is enough.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:47 am

"Not if the agreement includes the merger of operational control into a single operating agency for DFW, AFW and DAL."


Well it doesn't look like that is what they are proposing.

What AMR and Southwest and the City of Dallas are proposing is devising an illegal scheme to coordinates schedules and divide up gate space. They do not have the authority to do that. An airport must be open to one and all. Airlines cannot coordinate schedules with another airline. Any agreement that effectively has AA pulling out of Love for some other consideration is illegal.
 
txagkuwait
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 1999 7:39 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:58 am

After looking at this now that more of the agreement details have been made known, I agree with those who have suggested that the proposal may be illegal, is far too complicated, and simply won't work.

Let's do the right thing. Just throw the whole Wright Amendment out and let the chips fall where they may.

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