Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
apodino
Posts: 3942
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:38 am

In a related story, apparently some unnamed carrier is trying to acquire the old legend terminal for their own operations. The Dallas City Council in response, is now looking at legal options for acquiring the terminal under the eminent domain clause of the constitution.
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:12 am

Repeal Wright and use the existing 32 gates. End of story.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 90):
Why fly WN's 1-stops to MDW, when ATA has several DFW-MDW non-stops? Then, AA has nearly 20 DFW departures for ORD, and UA has a few.

Do keep in mind that TZ's DFW-MDW flights are now included in WN's code-share agreement; so technically, one can book that non-stop flight in WN's website.

If WN was ever allowed to fly DAL-MDW, TZ's DFW-MDW route would most likely be eliminated.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 83):
I think it's been so long since there's been a major Wright thread (hence Cj's absence for 3-4 weeks?) that some folks just have some pent-up need to start firing off arguments at each other. Only problem this time around is that, in the absence of official details, there's no ammo--everyone is shooting blanks with assumed/rumored info, and most of that came from the media.

Looks like the WN/DAL chickens are coming home to roost. OP, any idea what this is all about?

Wonder if this is related to leaked reports or foreshadowing of things (investigations)to come?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...t.ART0.North.Edition1.3e37327.html

Dallas reassigns aviation chief
Official says she needs him elsewhere; others point to Love finances



12:00 AM CDT on Saturday, June 10, 2006
By KATIE FAIRBANK and EMILY RAMSHAW / The Dallas Morning News


Love Field aviation director Kenneth Gwyn said Friday that he is leaving the airport to head the city's customer service division – a reassignment City Manager Mary Suhm said comes after a "good, 10-year run" with the airport.

The decision comes just days before Dallas is expected to unveil a compromise with Fort Worth on lifting the Wright amendment, which limits most commercial service from Love to a nine-state region.

Assistant Parks Director Carolyn Bray will run the Aviation Department in the interim.

Mr. Gwyn told staffers at the airport of his reassignment on Friday morning. He did not give a start date and did not return calls requesting comment.

Ms. Suhm said Friday that she asked Mr. Gwyn to take the customer-service job because it is one of her most critical posts, and because the Dallas City Council has placed such a high premium on customer service. There's no other motive, she said.

"Ken has a long history with this organization, and I need his skill set in that position," she said.

But some people close to the issue say they believe the move is occurring because of unfavorable attention about accounting problems at the airport during a bitter fight about whether to open Love Field up for additional flights. They say that news stories showing financial problems at the airport have made a touchy issue even harder to deal with.

The airport is run by the city's Aviation Department, a stand-alone business entity that has historically broken even or run surpluses.

But for fiscal year 2003 and fiscal year 2004, there was a $20 million combined shortfall. The Dallas Morning News reported in January that the Aviation Department was relying on a cash balance to meet both the shortfall and the requirements of a $59 million loan taken to build a parking garage at Love Field. The shortfall also prompted internal auditors to look into the books, and the airport's bond rating dipped.

A week after the story ran, the City Council decided to increase landing fees at the airport by 57 percent.

In February, The News reported that outside auditor KPMG was reviewing questions about balances at the Aviation Department. The results of that review should become public as part of the 2005 audit, which hasn't been completed and is more than a month late.

Another issue at the Aviation Department that garnered attention involved a $2.3 million loan made to the city's 911 fund, which was created from emergency-service fees to support the 911 phone system.

That loan was made without the City Council's approval and also was the focus of an internal audit. The loan has not been approved to date.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 95):
...the fact that AA will be mad.

I was right. They are mad.

I just got no fewer than three e-mails from Stop and Think today, as I subscribed to their e-mails to see the kind of BS that AA pumps out over Wright (even though I advocate repeal). They complained that the cities didn't look at a full closure af DAL (which Mayor Laura Miller said was out of the question) and that it "was reached with no public input" (which is somewhat true). Of course, they urged their members to bombard City Council, Congress, and the Senate with e-mails, letters, and such.

As much as I don't like the "deal", I think that the tactics of AA, Stop and Think, the Committee to Protect the Children, etc. are starting to become desperate. And no, I don't mean the new Desperate Housewives perfume that's coming to Macy's this fall... I mean pure, unadulterated desperation.  Angry
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 103):

Wonder if this is related to leaked reports or foreshadowing of things (investigations)to come?

I have no idea.

Try: http://www.dallascityhall.com/html/city_manager.html and let us all know what you find out...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
JonnyGT
Posts: 230
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 1:39 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:43 am

Congress will destroy the Wright Amendment immediately if Southwest starts making serious gestures about moving to Phoenix. Texas politicians like their jobs, and the voters of Texas will exile them to Oklahoma if Southwest moves to Arizona.
 
N702ML
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:00 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 90):
So why spend time sitting on the ground at STL or MCI, when the non-stop that left DFW at the same time is getting slotted in the ORD arrival pattern?

Maybe because they think its insane that anyone driving onto DFW property to drop off or pick up a passenger (not park...just drive up to the curb) has to pay $1.00 just for the privilidge of driving onto DFW property for five minutes.

Or maybe it's because AAs hub there is a monstrosity of ever changing gates. Just the other day I was flying out on AA and when the gate agent announced a gate change there was a near riot as this was apparently the THIRD gate change on the same flight. The previous week I checked AA.com for my gate assignment before leaving the house and by the time I got dropped off at DFW and walked into the terminal....suprise. Gate C24 had been changed to Gate D38.

Maybe its because when there is weather at the DFW you can (and I have) sit on the runway there for hours waiting to take off or waiting to pull into a gate. I've not had that experience at DAL. Yes, I have been delayed due to weather at DAL, but never for hours waiting to take off onboard the plane and never for hours to get into a gate once I have landed.

Why pay a dollar to get dropped off at the DFW to find out that the gate has been changed to a completely different terminal and then get scowled at by the agents when you are checking in only to leave the gate and sit on the runway for an hour? Once you've had any of these experiences, I can see why someone may want to fly out of DAL making 1-stop compared to going nonstop on AA from DFW.

Don't get me wrong. I love the professional atmosphere at AA. I love how clean their planes are. I love how efficient the agents are. I love that you always know what to expect. I have no ill feelings towards AA. I can see, though, after years of tolerating AA service out of DFW why someone in Dallas may want to fly with 1-stop out of DAL?

And yes, I know AA flies out of DAL. Before anyone throws that in my face, I am aware of the fact that AA is also at DAL and WN is NOT the only carrier at DAL. However, has anyone actually heard how the load factors are on AA? I don't believe they are all that stellar.

[Edited 2006-06-11 02:24:19]
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:43 pm

N702ML

It takes a little bit of work, and you can't break it out by flight or destination (only by airline). This is how I do it.

Go to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics website and scroll down to "Summary Statistics."

Click on "Origin Airport."

Choose your airport, airline and a date range from the drop down tables, then submit.

(I chose Love Field, American Airlines, and a date range of March 2-31) AA began DAL operations on March 2.

The table that comes will show you how many departures AA had at DAL in March. It was 182.

Now go back and repeat the above process, only this time choose "Destination Arport." This will tell you how many arrivals AA had at DAL in March. There were 182.

Sp now you know that AA had 364 total flights at DAL in March. Each plane has 142 seats. 364 flights X 142 seats = 51,688 available seats.

Once you have that info, you can go to to the Traffic Statistics page at Dalas Love Field's website to see how many passengers AA carried at DAL in March It was 25,500.

25,500 passengers carried divided by 51,688 available seats = 49.3% of available seats filled.

Doing the same thing for American Eagle For March I came up with:

512 total flights
25,600 available seats
15,139 passengers carried
59.1% available seats filled

For April:

American Airlines:
373 total flights
52,966 available seats
23,834 passengers carried
44.9% available seats filled

American Eagle
512 total flights
25,600 available seats
15,139 passengers carried
54.3% available seats filled

I know that AA had a big promotion in March and April and a lot of AA passengers were doing milage runs. I can't remember if that promotion runs throught the end of May or not. Once the promotion has ended, I'd expect to see their numbers drop a bit more.

LoneStarMike

 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:39 pm

Oops.. made a small error in American Eagle for April and it's too late to edit.. I re-listed the same passengers totals as March, but the % of available seats was correct.

It should read:
American Eagle
509 total flights
25,450 available seats
13,827 passengers carried
54.3% available seats filled.

LoneStarMike

 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 108):
Once you have that info, you can go to to the Traffic Statistics page at Dalas Love Field's website to see how many passengers AA carried at DAL in March It was 25,500.

FYI, your picking up an enplaned total from the Love Field website. That is the number of people who physically boarded the aircraft. Two issues that may affect your calculation of load factor. First, passengers who are traveling through DAL and stay on the aircraft to their next destination will be on the aircraft but will not show up in the enplanement count. That shouldn't be a problem for the AA calculation since they do not use the same a/c in from AUS and out to STL. So they never have any thru passengers, but if you were calculating load factor for WN then you would be under counting the number of people on the a/c. For WN it may be significant since their whole business model is set up like a bus route that makes stops and continues on to the next destination keeping passengers onboard until they reach their final destination.

Second, while this issue does not neccessarily effect load factor, it does effect how much revenue an airline is collecting and thus the "how are they doing?" question. The enplanement number listed by the Love Field website includes zero-fare passengers. So, AA may be pumping up their load factor by giving away seats, but that's not helping them make those routes profitable.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:25 am

DalNeighor

I agree with your point about through passengers on WN. That's why I didn't try to calculate figures for them. Plus, even though you can find out the total number of WN flights, you have no real way of knowing how many of those flights operated with 122 seat aircraft and how many were with 137 seat aircraft.

I also agree that zero-fare passengers effect yields. I was just trying to give folks a general idea of how full AA/AE's flights were be it with revenue passengers or non revenue passengers. Another way I could have stated it is "In March on American Airlines, 50.7 of their available seats didn't have any passengers in them.

However, I do not agree with your statement "FYI, your picking up an enplaned total from the Love Field website. That is the number of people who physically boarded the aircraft."

The totals I listed for AA/AE were enplanements plus deplanements, and not just enplanements only. For instance, it shows that in March, AA had 12,156 enplanements and 13,314 deplanements for a total sum of 25,500 passengers.

I just wanted to make that clear and my apologies to you if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

LoneStarMike

 
jrlander
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:48 am

Personally- I think DAL should have been shut down for passenger service when DFW opened up. Dallas agreed to build a major airport with Fort Worth. The combined cities have benefited from DFW for years. Southwest has thrown a fit because the legal restrictions which allowed them to start eventually became too much for them. Instead of living within the law, they throw a fit to get the law changed. As someone who has moved to Seattle, a city that finally stood up to Southwest acting live a corporate 4 year old, I believe that cities have an interest in setting the terms of free market competition and am proud that Seattle did, in this instance. Cities restrict what developers build and where they build. Cities restrict companies from building industrial zones too close to residential. Cities control where their seaports are. Cities have a right and an obligation to protect their citizens and to foster growth. DFW has been an amazing source of growth for Dallas and Fort Worth. Both cities agreed to build the airport, and to forsake their own airports in the process. Both cities should live up to the original obligation. Dallas should not give into Southwest. The free market can work just fine if Southwest were to be operating at DFW instead of at Dallas.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:17 am




Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Southwest has thrown a fit because the legal restrictions which allowed them to start

Legal restrictions should be reviewed, questioned and challenged periodically, Jrlander. Environments and circumstances change, decisions outlive their usefulness, and intelligent and logical systems adapt. Are you of the opinion that legal restrictions should be set in stone forever?

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Instead of living within the law, they throw a fit to get the law changed.

Hmm...kind of like how we, as a nation, "threw a fit" to abolish slavery, and "threw a fit" to extend voting privileges to women? ...Or is "throwing a fit" simply a term you reserve for the pursuit of interests other than your own?

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
I believe that cities have an interest in setting the terms of free market competition

Your definition of "Free market competition", then, is very different than the common definition. By and large, "free market competition" is defined as a market in which supply and demand are not regulated or restricted by "terms".




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Dallas should not give into Southwest. The free market can work just fine if Southwest were to be operating at DFW instead of at Dallas.

Of course it can... so can Southwest. But both have chosen not to. Why? Look at the costs.

Let's just say that AA and Stop and Think got their way and forced WN to move to DFW. First off, WN would have to duplicate already-paid-for infrastructure at an airport that's only eight miles away. Not just ticket counters and gates, but their MX facility, their Training Center, the majority of their computer systems, and much more. That alone would cost $100 million or more.

Then, WN would have to retrain their employees to DFW's cluttered, ghastly infrastructure... at least $10 million flushed down the Kohler bowl.

Next, due to DFW's significantly longer taxi times, they would spend more on fuel. Remember that WN likes to keep their planes in the air, not on the ground. Of course, the pro-Wrighters point out to "DEN's long taxi times", but DEN was actually designed from the ground up for shorter taxi times than other major airports, DFW included. Most of the time, the longest ramp taxi at DEN is shorter than the shortest one at DFW. Moving to DFW would cost WN at least $200 million a year in wasted productivity, fuel, and reduced aircraft utilization compared to DAL based on a typical WN top 10 city schedule.

Total amount of corporate waste that could be avoided by fighting Wright instead of sucking up to AA: a whopping $300+ million, which is equivalent to around 65% of WN's 2005 profits. On the other hand, chances are that WN is spending less than $20 million this year working to repeal Wright, and the pro-Wright set (AA, Stop and Think, etc.) is spending about the same to try to force WN to move to DFW.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Personally- I think DAL should have been shut down for passenger service when DFW opened up. Dallas agreed to build a major airport with Fort Worth. The combined cities have benefited from DFW for years. Southwest has thrown a fit because the legal restrictions which allowed them to start eventually became too much for them. Instead of living within the law, they throw a fit to get the law changed. As someone who has moved to Seattle, a city that finally stood up to Southwest acting live a corporate 4 year old, I believe that cities have an interest in setting the terms of free market competition and am proud that Seattle did, in this instance. Cities restrict what developers build and where they build. Cities restrict companies from building industrial zones too close to residential. Cities control where their seaports are. Cities have a right and an obligation to protect their citizens and to foster growth. DFW has been an amazing source of growth for Dallas and Fort Worth. Both cities agreed to build the airport, and to forsake their own airports in the process. Both cities should live up to the original obligation. Dallas should not give into Southwest. The free market can work just fine if Southwest were to be operating at DFW instead of at Dallas.

JRlander-
Welcome to my R.U.L. ...Someone on here understands the deal.

EVERY OTHER AIRLINE that chose to serve Dallas, has played by the rules for the last 32 years, WN should have been no different. Now WN will have an entire airport dedicated to just them and only them. Southwest never plays by the rules unless it benefits them. I too am glad Seattle told them NO to BFI and they did not really care if WN left.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:50 am

Saying that Dallas and Fort Worth "agreed" to build a joint airport doesn't quite tell the whole story. They were forced to build a joint airport by the CAB.

Dallas never wanted to build a joint airport with Ft. Worth. The CAB forced them to do so. The story goes like this.

In the beginning, the cities of Dallas and Ft. Worth each had their own separate commercial airports. Dallas had Love Field and Ft. Worth had Meacham.

Although Dallas was the larger of the two cities and generated much more air traffic than Ft. Worth, the airlines made stops in both cities.

In the late 1940's, Ft. Worth had proposed joining together with Dallas and working to build one airport midway between the two cities. Dallas initially showed some interest, but the two cities soon became embroiled in a bitter feud regarding the location of the terminal. When Dallas found out it would be on the west side of the airfield facing Ft. Worth, they said thanks but no thanks.

Why on earth should the citizens of Dallas have to drive 19 miles to another airport, they asked themselves, when they had a pefectly good airport seven miles from downtown that suited their needs? Dallas had too much pride for that.

Ft. Worth had civic pride, as well. Seemingly always in the shadow of Dallas, they still had their dreams, too, and with or without Dallas' help they decided to forge ahead. They'd show Texas and the world that Ft. Worth was every bit as good as Dallas. Build it (and make it bigger and better than Dallas' airport) and they will come, Ft. Worth thought.

Amon Carter Field (named after Ft. Worth's patriarch and a majority shareholder in American Airlines) officially opened in April, 1953. At the time, Ft. Worth's new airport put Dallas' to shame. It was described as "the nearest thing to perfection in planning, design and in functional layout of any airport in its class anywhere," and compared to other facilities, its terminal was a showplace.

Traffic at Amon Carter Field soon began to drop-off, though. After the initial novelty wore off, most Dallas travelers continued to prefer the convenience of their own Love Field over the grandeur of Ft. Worth's Amon Carter.

The book From Prairie to Planes, by Darwin Payne and Kathy Fitzpatrick, (Hardcover) 1999, tells the story of how, in November of 1954 -- a year and a half after Amon Carter Field opened -- it was losing money. To help improve traffic there, Ft. Worth decided to offer to sell a half interest in the airport to the City of Dallas at the original cost to Ft. Worth; change the name of the airport to include Dallas; and explore the possible formation of a joint port authority with representtives from both cities.

What was Dallas' response? (Page 84)

"Dallas' unnofficial reaction , issued by the Chamber of Commerce, was quick and somewhat contemptuous. Chamber President Crossman and the chairman of the Chamber's aviation committee, Angus C. Wynne, Jr. declared in a joint statement that the offer amounted to an effort by Ft. Worth to bail itself out of financial problems.

"What it boils down to is this: Ft. Worth is offering to sell Dallas a detour -- a detour which the air travelers and shippers of Dallas would then have to use."

In the joint statement the two men pointed out that Ft. Worth had less than 125,000 originating and terminating air passengers a year compared to Dallas' 750,000. "The inconvenience and unnecessary expense involved in a Dallas passenger's use of the Ft. Worth Airport, multiplied by 750,000, amounts to staggering totals. These are the basic reasons Dallas insists on continuing the use of Love Field."

Traffic continued to dwindle at Amon Carter Field and the airport was still losing money. Ft. Worth City leaders grew more and more concerned.

The problem was Ft. Worth didn't have the population on its own to support such a large airport. Ft. Worth needed Dallas' strong travel market to make Amon Carter Field viable. Dallas already had Love Field and preferred to compete with Ft. Worth rather than joining forces and working together.

In May 1960, Ft. Worth shortened the name to Greater Southwest International Airport (GSW) in an effort to get Dallas to reconsider. Dallas wasn't interested and with good reason. They were no longer using the old Lemmon Avenue Terminal. They'd opened the current Love Field Terminal in Janauary 1958, barely two years before, and it was now bigger and grander than Ft. Worth's. Traffic was booming.

Neither city would give in. Both continued to make improvements to their respective airports at government expense.

Finally, the government told the two cities they would no longer fund both airports. Dallas and Ft. Worth would have to join together and build one airport to serve the entire region.

Thanks to the government's decision, Ft. Worth basically got everything they had wanted from Dallas back in 1954.

Remember, they wanted Dallas to own a half share of "their" airport even though Dallas was perfectly happy with its own. Since DFW was built very near the site of GSW, it's just as convenient to Ft. Worth as GSW was, but meanwhile, Dallasites, who made up the lion's share of all travelers in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area at that time, were the ones facing a longer drive.

In return, Dallas was added to the name of the new airport, and as Ft. Worth had proposed in 1954, the airport is now run by a joint authority with representatives from both cities.

That's why it's always amusing to hear Ft. Worth say "We tore down our airport. Dallas did not." Well of course Ft. Worth tore down their airport. Since the new airport was being built right next door it was basically replacing Ft. Worth's old (money-losing) one, only this time on a much grander scale. And this time, it would succeed because Dallas travelers would be forced to support it.

The "musical version" of the story goes like this:

(Click on the song title.
Wait for midi to load.
Sing along!)

D/FW Rivalry
Tune - Wabash Cannonball

(Instrumental intro)

Listen to the story
Of Dallas and Ft. Worth
And the rivalry between the two -
It's the dumbest thing on earth

Try-in' to out-do each other
So that they can prove who's best
Never mind the consequences
(Po-li-tics in the Southwest)

Dallas outshone Ft. Worth
This made Cowtown blue
They decided they'd show Big D
That they were important, too

So they planned a big new airport
Told Dallas, "Hey, y'all come!"
But the Dallas City Council
Said to Ft. Worth, "That's just dumb."

"We'd have to drive much further
We like Love Field just fine
We won't be joining you, Ft. Worth
And that's the bottom line"

Ft. Worth was not discouraged
They'd still make history
When Amon Carter opened
In nineteen fifty-three.

There was a lot of hoopla
Across the Great Southwest
When Amon Carter opened
It was the nation's best

But soon their traffic dwindled
While Love Field grew and grew
The City of Ft. Worth had bit off
More than they could chew.

They ran right back to Dallas
And begged them once again
Oh won't you help our airport out?
Come join us, be our friend

But Dallas said no thank you
We just don't want to go
You caused this mess yourself, we hate
To say "We told you so."

Still Ft. Worth never gave up
In the end they got their way
Both cities would share one airport
The government did say

So they had to join together
And see the project through
The biggest airport in the world
Called D-F-W

LoneStarMike

[Edited 2006-06-11 19:23:59]

 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:55 am




Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 115):
Now WN will have an entire airport dedicated to just them and only them.

So WN has been guaranteed exclusive and indefinite use of each and every gate at DAL? Provide a source or stop posting lies, Dc10s4ever.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:03 am

2H4,
The entire proposal that Laura Miller has put together basically gives WN exclusive rights to ALL 20 gates that DAL would be allowed to have. It is not a lie....There are no additional facilities for anyone else to grow there.

It all goes back to 1974 when DFW opened, the deal to build the new airport was for DAL to CLOSE.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 115):
Now WN will have an entire airport dedicated to just them and only them.

Just like AA does at MWA? Delta at Macom? NW at GFK?

Each airport is served by one airline only...how is it any different?

and DAL is not exclusively operate dby WN, your forgetting CO and AA and at a time DL did too. That is 4 airlines at different times that have operated out of DAL.

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Southwest has thrown a fit because the legal restrictions which allowed them to start eventually became too much for them.

Wrong. This "legal" restriction was enacted 7 years AFTER Southwest started flights at Dallas Love Field. WN did NOT become succesful or start because of the Wright Amendment.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 119):
Just like AA does at MWA? Delta at Macom?

Ok what is MWA??????
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:11 am




Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 118):
The entire proposal that Laura Miller has put together basically gives WN exclusive rights to ALL 20 gates that DAL would be allowed to have.

Basically? The proposal either dedicates the entire airport to them or it doesn't. Which is it? And where is there a source that confirms your suspicions?

Regardless, the proposal is just that....a proposal. You're complaining about something that is, at this point, anything but final.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
dc10s4ever
Posts: 700
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:13 am

Damn,,,,I have spent too much time on A.net and I am late for a lunch date.....she is gonna be pissed!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 120):
Ok what is MWA??????

MWA is Marion-Williamson Regional Airport served exclusively by American Connection, sole airline at MWA.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:16 am




Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 122):
Damn,,,,I have spent too much time on A.net and I am late for a lunch date.....she is gonna be pissed!

I think this is officially the first time I have felt sympathy and hope for a pro-wrighter. Good luck, man!  biggrin 




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 124):
I think this is officially the first time I have felt sympathy and hope for a pro-wrighter. Good luck, man!

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 118):
The entire proposal that Laura Miller has put together basically gives WN exclusive rights to ALL 20 gates that DAL would be allowed to have. It is not a lie....There are no additional facilities for anyone else to grow there.

This "proposal" of which you speak has yet to be officially released, and its entirety. All that anybody has to go on are bits and pieces from media reports, and we all know about the media's lack of accuracy and context sometimes. As I said previous, you folks are debating rumors, not facts..

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 118):
It all goes back to 1974 when DFW opened, the deal to build the new airport was for DAL to CLOSE.

Check your history and timeline. That's "CLOSE" as in to commercial traffic "if legally permissible" and the courts ruled that it indeed was not legally permissible after all. End of story.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
TVNWZ
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:28 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:52 am

I think it's time TaxAgKuwait gave his DFW/DAL political primer, again.

Howabout it?
 
dalneighbor
Posts: 589
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:04 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 111):
I just wanted to make that clear and my apologies to you if I misunderstood the point you were trying to make.

No apology neccessary. I think your spot on.

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 115):
I too am glad Seattle told them NO to BFI and they did not really care if WN left.

Seattle did not tell WN no. Seattle said yes to WN operating at an existing airport. After Alaska jumped in and requested gate space for 100+ flights, that's when it would have overwhelmed BFI and the County Comisioner had to say we can't handle all of that traffic and we can't discriminate between the two airlines requesting gates. So by Alaska submitting a bid they would never follow through with, they were able to eliminate competition and keep fares high despite all the economic benefits that would have come to the citizens of the Seattle area.

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 118):
It all goes back to 1974 when DFW opened, the deal to build the new airport was for DAL to CLOSE.

That's a lie that's been told so many times on this board. The airport was never, never, ever to be closed. If it were to be closed, then it would not be in existence right now. The contruction crews would have torn that baby up and we would not be having this discussion. Dallas made it very clear all along that they wanted Love Field to remain in operation indefinitely.
Wright Amendment = Federally Engineered AA Price Gouging
 
legion242
Topic Author
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:18 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 56):
DAL has 32 gates, 28 main terminal and four satelite gates used by Legend.

Restricting WN to 18 gates would give Southwest a maximum of 56% of the gates, or 64% of the main terminal gates. That's a fairly benign monopoloy compared to any of the major hubs in the U.S.

It was stated in the article, or on broadcast news that ANY remaining gates would be physically destoryed to prevent any expansions.

There has also been hints of someone big wanting the Legend terminal and that Dallas would fight them hard.
Don't make me release the monkeys!!
 
jrlander
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 1999 3:47 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 113):
Your definition of "Free market competition", then, is very different than the common definition. By and large, "free market competition" is defined as a market in which supply and demand are not regulated or restricted by "terms".

Actually- from my memories of economics- such a definition depends largely on the school of economics to which one subscribes. There are economists who subscribe the concept that the free market can and ought to be guided and limited when it is in the best interest of society. One such economist would be Morton Schapiro, president of Williams College. By and large, there is no one definition.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:54 pm




Quoting Jrlander (Reply 130):
There are economists who subscribe the concept that the free market can and ought to be guided and limited when it is in the best interest of society.

For every opinion that exists, you will find followers who claim it is the truth. Of course there are economists who subscribe to that concept. That doesn't give it validity.

Here's how Merriam-Webster defines "free market":

Main Entry: free market
Function: noun
: an economic market operating by free competition

"Free competition". Well, we know the definition of competition...let's examine the definition of "free"....emphasis mine:

1 a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another

2 a :
not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself b : determined by the choice of the actor or performer c : made, done, or given voluntarily or spontaneously

3 a :
relieved from or lacking something unpleasant or burdensome b : not bound, confined, or detained by force

4 a : having no trade restrictions b : not subject to government regulation c of foreign exchange : not subject to restriction or official control

5 a : having no obligations (as to work) or commitments b : not taken up with commitments or obligations


6 : having a scope not restricted by qualification


7 a (1) : not obstructed or impeded : CLEAR (2) : not being used or occupied b : not hampered or restricted in its normal operation

In addition, from my own memories of economics, the commonly-accepted definition of "free market competition" is a market in which supply and demand are not regulated or restricted by terms or conditions. Conduct a poll, and the vast majority of responses will echo this definition.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 113):
Legal restrictions should be reviewed, questioned and challenged periodically, Jrlander. Environments and circumstances change, decisions outlive their usefulness, and intelligent and logical systems adapt. Are you of the opinion that legal restrictions should be set in stone forever?

What we are saying is that there is no reason to change this law. Ever notice that no other airline is bothered by the Wright Amendment, ever wonder why?

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 113):
Hmm...kind of like how we, as a nation, "threw a fit" to abolish slavery, and "threw a fit" to extend voting privileges to women? ...Or is "throwing a fit" simply a term you reserve for the pursuit of interests other than your own?

Comparing to the Wright fight to the efforts to abolish slavery and the Equal Rights movement is a stretch even you should be afraid to make. This is about one company not a race of people or rights denied to a class or sex of people. This is corporate welfare nothing less.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 113):
Your definition of "Free market competition", then, is very different than the common definition. By and large, "free market competition" is defined as a market in which supply and demand are not regulated or restricted by "terms".

How can there be true free market competition within an industry totally dependant upon the publics largesse to operate? Airlines do not own the airports or the airspace they operate in.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:02 pm




Quoting Cjpark (Reply 132):
no other airline is bothered by the Wright Amendment

You can't possibly know that, Cj. Unless, of course, you happen to sit in on board meetings of all current and potential DAL airlines. One cannot logically conclude that other airlines have taken an anti-repeal stance based on the fact that they haven't publicly stated their position on wright. It's absolutely plausible that the other airlines are simply keeping their position and opinions to themselves for the time being. Doing so does not make them pro-wright by default.

This is nothing new, by the way. It's been explained to you before. Care to retain the information this time?

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 132):
Comparing to the Wright fight to the efforts to abolish slavery and the Equal Rights movement is a stretch even you should be afraid to make.

I agree that it's a stretch, but like it or not, the principle and philosophy with respect to reviewing and adapting established policy is the same.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 132):
How can there be true free market competition

Compared to the anticompetitive environment at DAL, every other similar airport and airline enjoys free market competition.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 133):
You can't possibly know that, Cj. Unless, of course, you happen to sit in on board meetings of all current and potential DAL airlines. One cannot logically conclude that other airlines have taken an anti-repeal stance based on the fact that they haven't publicly stated their position on wright. It's absolutely plausible that the other airlines are simply keeping their position and opinions to themselves for the time being. Doing so does not make them pro-wright by default.

This is nothing new, by the way. It's been explained to you before. Care to retain the information this time?

Yea tell us again how the other airlines would be in favor of repealing a law that would give huge advantages to a rival carrier. Try to make some sense of your argument this time too.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 133):
I agree that it's a stretch, but like it or not, the principle and philosophy with respect to reviewing and adapting established policy is the same.

Wars have been fought to remove slavery and to extend rights. I doubt that any one is prepared to go to war to help Southwest out of this mess.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 133):
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 132):
How can there be true free market competition

Compared to the anticompetitive environment at DAL, every other similar airport and airline enjoys free market competition.

It is too bad you had to misquote my post to attempt to make a point. But for your review here it is, care to rebuke that statement as a whole?

How can there be true free market competition within an industry totally dependant upon the publics largesse to operate? Airlines do not own the airports or the airspace they operate in.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:29 am




Quoting Cjpark (Reply 134):
Yea tell us again how the other airlines would be in favor of repealing a law

Cj, a keen reader will note that I never argued that other airlines are in fact in favor of repeal. I argued that it is foolish and irresponsible to interpret their silence as being in support of wright. How many times must this be explained to you?


Quoting Cjpark (Reply 134):
Wars have been fought to remove slavery and to extend rights. I doubt that any one is prepared to go to war to help Southwest out of this mess.

You know, Cj, over the past year or so, I've seen you miss the point of a discussion many times. This, however, takes the cake.

I have never once argued that the wright issue is on the same level of slavery or equality. Fact.

I have used those examples as evidence that legislation should not necessarily be considered permanent. Furthermore, examining past issues such as those highlights the importance of questioning the present-day validity of past rules and regulations.

Perhaps you should take a moment to let this sink in.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 134):
But for your review here it is, care to rebuke that statement as a whole?

How can there be true free market competition within an industry totally dependant upon the publics largesse to operate? Airlines do not own the airports or the airspace they operate in.

Compared to the anticompetitive environment at DAL, every other similar airport and airline enjoys free market competition.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 135):
Compared to the anticompetitive environment at DAL, every other similar airport and airline enjoys free market competition.

It's a pleasure reading your posts. Thanks to you, I didn't even have to chime in. Welcome to my respected user's list.
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 101):
Repeal Wright and use the existing 32 gates. End of story.

Close 13L/31R (after re-building 13R/31L) and limit it to 24 gates and you have a deal.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 113):
Quoting Jrlander (Reply 112):
Instead of living within the law, they throw a fit to get the law changed.

Hmm...kind of like how we, as a nation, "threw a fit" to abolish slavery, and "threw a fit" to extend voting privileges to women? ...Or is "throwing a fit" simply a term you reserve for the pursuit of interests other than your own

[quote=2H4,reply=135]I have used those examples as evidence that legislation should not necessarily be considered permanent. Furthermore, examining past issues such as those highlights the importance of questioning the present-day validity of past rules and regulations.

You have missed the point again, the effort to abolish slavery and extend civil rights in this country and your hope to repeal the Wright Amendment are in no way comparable. There was a moral necessity to remove slavery and provide equal rights but there is no such responsibility to remove the Wright Amendment. You would be closer to the mark if you compared the repeal of the Wright Amendment to the effort to remove the Windfall Profit tax from the backs of the Oil Companies in the late seventies. It benefits no one except the company or companies seeking relief.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 135):
Quoting Cjpark (Reply 134):
But for your review here it is, care to rebuke that statement as a whole?

How can there be true free market competition within an industry totally dependant upon the publics largesse to operate? Airlines do not own the airports or the airspace they operate in.

Compared to the anticompetitive environment at DAL, every other similar airport and airline enjoys free market competition.

There you go again, making statements in support of your position that have no basis in truth. The law applies to all airlines, since it applies to all airlines how is anticompetitive for one airline and not the other?

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 135):
Cj, a keen reader will note that I never argued that other airlines are in fact in favor of repeal. I argued that it is foolish and irresponsible to interpret their silence as being in support of wright. How many times must this be explained to you?

You and yours argued that the silence of the other airlines did not mean that were against repeal. I argued that it was irrational to think that the other airlines could be supporting the effort to repeal.

Still want to try and tell us how the other airlines would be in favor of repealing a law that would give huge advantages to a rival carrier.?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3197
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 137):
Close 13L/31R (after re-building 13R/31L) and limit it to 24 gates and you have a deal.

Though with a healthy amount of non-commercial traffic at DAL, that may be a very tough one to get by the FAA I would imagine, esp if the runway had federal $$ invested in it.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
Boeing7E7
Posts: 5512
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 139):
Though with a healthy amount of non-commercial traffic at DAL, that may be a very tough one to get by the FAA I would imagine, esp if the runway had federal $$ invested in it.

Limiting it to one runway reduces system demand in the region producing a net benefot. DAL hasn't received much Federal money for it's runways in some time.
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 127):
I think it's time TaxAgKuwait gave his DFW/DAL political primer, again.

I'm not the expert that TxAgKuwait is on this issue, but I'll give it a shot:

In the 1950s and 1960s, Dallas and Ft. Worth each operated separate airports, Dallas with the larger Love Field and Ft. Worth with Meacham Field. In the 1960s, the CAB (which in the days of regulation had complete control over the nation's air markets) ordered that the cities consolidate their service at a single airport. Hence, DFW was planned, with the understanding that Ft. Worth and Dallas would close their individual airports once the new DFW opened.

In 1970, when DFW was being constructed, Southwest Airlines launched service from DAL after a long legal battle with Braniff and other entrenched airlines. It proved very successful. However, the inevitable opening of DFW gave WN a problem -- in Houston, it had already realized (after trying IAH, then moving to Hobby) that its short-hop flights required close-in airports. It did not want to move to DFW when it was finished, and was able to argue successfully that it was not party to any agreements to leave DAL, because it wasn't in existence at the time. The City of Dallas was therefore able to keep DAL open, and keep generating revenue from it, when DFW opened in 1973. At that time, the CAB forced all other airlines (which operated interstate flights) to move to DFW. WN's flights from DAL, however, only operated within Texas, hence the CAB had no jurisdiction over it. WN therefore stayed at DAL, while all the other airlines moved to DFW.

This was not a major issue at first. Because of the CAB restrictions, WN could not fly outside Texas from DAL; if it wanted to do this, it would have to fly from DFW. This all changed in 1979, though, when air service in the US was deregulated. DFW was only a six-year old airport, and was financed by the sale of billions in municipal bonds. The thought of Southwest being able to fly anywhere in the country from DAL scared the young DFW and its owner cities. Enter Congressman Jim Wright of Ft. Worth. Originally, Wright wanted to pass a law completely closing DAL, then he tried to restrict DAL flights to Texas only. Eventually, he maneuvered through Congress a compromise now known as the infamous Wright Amendment, which prohibited any airline at DAL from flying planes with more than 56 seats to any state beyond the Texas-New Mexico-Oklahoma-Arkansas-Louisiana permiteter. There is debate on whether this result was truly a "compromise," but in any event, it stayed put until the early 1990s. At that time, Sen. Richard Shelby was able to pass the Shelby Amendment, which allowed flights to Kansas, Mississippi, and Alabama. More recently, the Bond Amendment allowed flights from DAL to Missouri.

For me personally, the history of the Wright Amendment puts things into a better perspective. I still support the fight against the Amendment, but with certain caveats. There's no doubt that the law is outdated -- since 1973, DFW has become one of the world's premier airports, and the DFW area has almost tripled in size. It's easy to root for repeal, because on its face the law appears anticompetitive.

However, there is also the other side of the coin. The City of Ft. Worth initially poured billions into DFW with the general understanding from its joint owner city that DFW would be the region's sole airport. True, this was long ago, but it is still an important piece of perspective. And, while it's almost doubtless true that the region can support two airports, it would be rare for the region to support two airports operating under a different ownership regime. It would also be rare for a region to have two airports so close together (11 miles as the crow flies, 18 miles by road). There is a clear conflict of interest if the City of Dallas owns 50% of one airport and 100% of a nearby airport.

For this reason, I believe the compromise should look something like this:

1) Thru-ticketing restrictions lifted immediately. All flight restrictions to be ended within 3-5 years.

2) Creation of a regional airport authority with members from Dallas, Ft. Worth, and surrounding cities (akin to the Metropolitan Washington Airport Authority, the Chicago Department of Aviation, Houston Airport System, PANYNJ, etc.)

3) The number of gates at DAL limited to 25-35. No additional gates allowed unless there is a supermajority or unanimity of members of the airport authority supporting additional gates.

4) Southwest, Continental and AA must give up their current gate leases at DAL, and all gates are reallocated in an open bidding process for all airlines that wish to participate.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 141):
Enter Congressman Jim Wright of Ft. Worth. Originally, Wright wanted to pass a law completely closing DAL, then he tried to restrict DAL flights to Texas only. Eventually, he maneuvered through Congress a compromise now known as the infamous Wright Amendment,

Correct me if I am wrong but the only reason this happened was because WN filed to fly DAL-MSY. They filed and won the authority to fly Houston to New Orleans. This was not a problem. Once WN filed the route authority to fly DAL-MSY thats when DFW got mad and then Wright came along.

If WN never filed it, the law wouldn't have been enacted or until WN filed to fly DAL-somewhere else out of Texas.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
ssides
Posts: 3248
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 142):
Correct me if I am wrong but the only reason this happened was because WN filed to fly DAL-MSY.

You may be right, I'm not sure -- but there was a connection to deregulation. Whether due to change in law or WN's authority to fly to MSY, the writing was on the wall re: deregulation.
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:41 am

The City of Dallas is planning a news conference on Wednesday to officially announce whatever compromise they may reach by then (not quite a done deal as I write this). They must be confident enough they will iron out whatever wrinkle is left because a City council vote on whether to approve the compromise is also scheduled to occur on Wednesday. No word yet on whether Fort Worth has scheduled a vote too.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Ssides (Reply 143):
You may be right, I'm not sure -- but there was a connection to deregulation. Whether due to change in law or WN's authority to fly to MSY, the writing was on the wall re: deregulation.

Yes WN agreed to stay at DAL, there was absolutely NO restrictions. Still wasn't any when deregulation occured.Still wasn't any restrictions when WN filed to fly DAL-MSY,only then the outburst came in.

I think what confuses everyone is WN stayed at DAL knowing they where restricted, that certainly wasn't the case at all. And again when Deregulation had occured there STILL wasn't any wright amendment. Wn had EVERY RIGHT to file and fly DAL-MSY, there was no legal law saying it couldn't happen. Once DAL-MSY was filed, Wright got mad and made it his problem. DAL-MSY was then approved and WN started to fly it. Wright was still furious and came in and finally the Wright Amendment happened.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
dartland
Posts: 514
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:09 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 145):
Yes WN agreed to stay at DAL, there was absolutely NO restrictions. Still wasn't any when deregulation occured.Still wasn't any restrictions when WN filed to fly DAL-MSY,only then the outburst came in.



Quoting Ssides (Reply 141):
Because of the CAB restrictions, WN could not fly outside Texas from DAL

These two quotes directly contradict each other.

Ssides --- thank you for the history -- but can either of you reconcile your differences? Whether or not WN operated at DAL after the creation of DFW with the understanding that there were some sort of restrictions on their operations is a piece to understanding what grounds they may have today for trying to repeal it.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4412
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 146):
These two quotes directly contradict each other.

This is what I meant by no restrictions at DAL, meaning there was no Wright Amendment at DAL when this had happened.

The restriction Ssides means is no intrastate airline (SWA) could fly to any city beyond Texas.

We were talking about two different restrictions.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:22 am




Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
the effort to abolish slavery and extend civil rights in this country and your hope to repeal the Wright Amendment are in no way comparable.

The method and concept of examining laws that may have outlived their usefulness most certainly is comparable. Which, dear Cj, has been my point all along.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
There you go again, making statements in support of your position that have no basis in truth.

What can I say? You must be contagious.  Wink

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
The law applies to all airlines, since it applies to all airlines how is anticompetitive for one airline and not the other?

In my opinion, because currently, it directly benefits one airline more than any other. Repealing the law would level the playing field. Cj, you would do well to remember (or indeed, comprehend) that repealing the law would apply to all airlines, as well.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
You and yours argued that the silence of the other airlines did not mean that were against repeal.

Logic is a wonderful thing, isn't it?  biggrin 

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
I argued that it was irrational to think that the other airlines could be supporting the effort to repeal.

....Pure speculation on your part. Remember that all airlines....not just Southwest....would have the opportunity to benefit from repeal. In fact, grabbing a piece of the DFW region pie would be easier for other airlines after repeal then it is at the present time.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 138):
Still want to try and tell us how the other airlines would be in favor of repealing a law that would give huge advantages to a rival carrier.?

Sure. Right after you try and tell us how they would be in favor of retaining a law that gives a huge advantage to a rival carrier. It goes both ways, Cj. With wright in place, AA/DFW benefits directly. Without wright in place, WN would benefit directly....but so would any other airline interested in servicing the Dallas/Fort Worth region.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Dallas/Ft Worth Agree To Wright Compromise

Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Dartland (Reply 146):
Whether or not WN operated at DAL after the creation of DFW with the understanding that there were some sort of restrictions on their operations is a piece to understanding what grounds they may have today for trying to repeal it.

SWA operated at Love -before- the creation of DFW in 1974.

SWA opted not to move to DFW, since they were not a signatory airline that agreed to move (SWA wasn't flying when the agreement with the 8 airlines at Love (at the time) was made).

The lawsuit to force SWA to move to DFW began in 1973. The courts ruled they could stay at Love. The opposition began a series of various appeals in the court system than ran until 1977.

Airline deregulation occured in 1978.

SWA started HOU-MSY in early 1979, and DAL-MSY later. The litigation began anew, and the Wright Amendment limiting SWA (and any other airline serving Love) to destinations in the contiguous states to Texas (NM, OK, AR, and LA).

Many people are under the mistaken impression that the Wright Amendment is what allowed SWA to stay at Love instead of moving to DFW, but that's incorrect, and they were two separate legal issues. Neither did Herb Kelleher "write" the Wright Amendment--it was passed as a rider to another bill.

There's a detailed account over on www.fightwright.org that you may want to check out further. The original language would have adversely affected alot more airports than just Love, and the "compromise" weeded them out and left Love as the only affected airport.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos