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LGAtoIND
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Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:39 am

Since I just moved to DEN for the summer, I have been wondering why there is no nonstop service from DEN-CDG on either AF or UA. I would think that AF could make at least 5X weekly service on an A330 work. Even UA, with their DEN hub, although it seems less likely. Since AF dosen't serve too many cities in the western U.S., it would seem like DEN would be a great route for them.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:54 am

AF opening DEN has been "in the air" for a while ...
AF wants to expand in the US during the next 3 years. 2 possible strategies :
opening new destinations (rumored are DEN, SEA, DFW again ) or reinforcing the existing lines.
The problem with the last option is that the most profitable routes are already served by a minimum of 2 x Daily flights (ATL, JFK, LAX, IAH, IAD, BOS).
ORD never made a lot of money, nor MIA (low yield).
PHL & DTW will for sure get a bigger capacity (A343 iso A332) and a DAILY flight soon in winter also, and CVG could get a service all the year round if nedeed.

AF is facing a second problems : lack of aircraft and particularly A332, to expand/open routes ...
 
Spoke2Spoke
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:26 am

United wants you through the Star FRA hub, or their IAD int'l gateway so is therefore probably reluctant to start a non-stop. However, I wonder if the route would be nonetheless profitable.
...carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks. - Wilbur Wright
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:14 pm

If AF were in Star Alliance or if UA were in SkyTeam, the service would probably exist. But instead we see LH flights to FRA.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
OOer
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 3):
If AF were in Star Alliance or if UA were in SkyTeam, the service would probably exist. But instead we see LH flights to FRA.

Then why doesnt AF start SLC-CDG? Its a Skyteam hub and you would be able to connect the rocky mountain region to France with only 1 stop...an A330 5 x weekly would have great success, not to mention the amount of money AF would make codesharing some of the DLC flights into SLC!!!
 
FlySSC
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 3):
If AF were in Star Alliance or if UA were in SkyTeam, the service would probably exist. But instead we see LH flights to FRA.

In that case, you would not see 3 x Daily AF to IAD (UA's Hub), and no LH at ATL (DL's Hub)...
DEN is an important center, and could be interesting for AF, even though it's not a "Skyteam Airline" Hub ...
 
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Flying Belgian
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:21 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
AF is facing a second problems : lack of aircraft and particularly A332, to expand/open routes ...

Does AF still have to take delivery of any new A332 ?

A bientôt !!
FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting LGAtoIND (Thread starter):
I would think that AF could make at least 5X weekly service on an A330 work.

Being in SkyTeam AF will start service to SLC long before they go into DEN and compete against UA and Star Alliance.

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
Then why doesnt AF start SLC-CDG? Its a Skyteam hub and you would be able to connect the rocky mountain region to France with only 1 stop...an A330 5 x weekly would have great success, not to mention the amount of money AF would make codesharing some of the DLC flights into SLC!!!

While SLC is considered a week O&D hub for SkyTeam, I'll argue that DEN really isn't all that much better for Star Alliance. DEN looks at SLC as a thorn in the side of their desired dominance of the Mountain Time Zone. LH is the designated alliance carrier for DEN since they are part of Star, AF is SkyTeam and DENs 700,000 more potential O&D numbers over SLC isn't enough to sway AF to go into enemy territory like that.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
dia77
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
Being in SkyTeam AF will start service to SLC long before they go into DEN and compete against UA and Star Alliance.

SLC is not even under current consideration for AF. Executives from AF have visited DEN, SEA and DFW. DEN views PHX as a much bigger rival in the Rocky Mountain southwest area.
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:09 am

I suggest they find an airport in a Blue state. On a side note, why is AF so Boeing friendly with their aircraft?

[Edited 2006-06-26 18:10:44]
 
nosedive
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
While SLC is considered a week O&D hub for SkyTeam, I'll argue that DEN really isn't all that much better for Star Alliance. DEN looks at SLC as a thorn in the side of their desired dominance of the Mountain Time Zone. LH is the designated alliance carrier for DEN since they are part of Star, AF is SkyTeam and DENs 700,000 more potential O&D numbers over SLC isn't enough to sway AF to go into enemy territory like that.

The number is closer to 10 million: See for yourself
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 8):
DEN views PHX as a much bigger rival in the Rocky Mountain southwest area.

PHX is to far south to be a very effective hub for the region. The central location of SLC and DEN make them the most favorable in the Mountain Time Zone. It wasn't until HP became a fairly large LCC carrier during the early 1990s that PHX even exceeded SLC in flight and passenger traffic, even though PHX has been a larger metro area for much longer.
Let me further remind you that SLC is the biggest reason Federico Pena pushed to have DEN moved to the DIA site from Stapleton back in the 1980s. Pena knew that SLC had expansion land for another set of runways that Stapleton lacked, so hence his further push for the 53 square miles and 7 runways that DIA covers. Then as USDOT Secretary he denied Delta a LGW slot since they wouldn't move their hub from SLC to DIA. Talk about a "sour grapes" rat!
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 10):
The number is closer to 10 million: See for yourself

I based the numbers I mentioned on metro area population, Denver/Boulder vs. Salt Lake City/Ogden/Provo.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
usair320
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:47 am

We should get internatinal service from Down in ABQ.(LOL not happening anytime soon)
 
dia77
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
I based the numbers I mentioned on metro area population, Denver/Boulder vs. Salt Lake City/Ogden/Provo.

The latest actual census data (from 2000) shows Denver being double the size of Salt Lake City (this doesn't include the heavily populated I-25 corridor around Colorado Springs).

The primary reason DIA was planned in the 1980s was due to major gridlock at the Stapleton site. First revisions of the DIA master plan were designed when United, Continental and Frontier all had major hubs in Denver (1985). I can assure you, that Mayor Pena didn't not commit to build a new airport because of SLC.

Also, DL never seriously considered a move from SLC to DEN (although there is a rumor that AA was heavily courted after CO's hub departure in 1994).
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
ORD never made a lot of money, nor MIA (low yield).

While the second daily was never popular, AF has always made healthy yields on their MIA route, especially with the heavy premium traffic that goes between Miami and France in the winter.
a.
 
7e72004
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:11 am

Isn't there a factor of Denver being a mile high (no pun intended  Smile ) and having something to do with the air or something??
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
nosedive
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 12):
Quoting Nosedive (Reply 10):The number is closer to 10 million: See for yourself
I based the numbers I mentioned on metro area population, Denver/Boulder vs. Salt Lake City/Ogden/Provo.

Well aware, but those numbers really don't give you an idea of who is flying. O/D numbers work better.

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 14):
(although there is a rumor that AA was heavily courted after CO's hub departure in 1994).

Not really a rumor, IIRC, Peña's group, when he was mayor of Denver, based DIA on having an AA hub. Back in the 1980s, rumors were that the orginal Frontier was going to get bought by AA, but CO's Lorenzo hinted to the AA exec's with something like "don't play in my backyard and I won't play in yours."

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 16):
Isn't there a factor of Denver being a mile high (no pun intended   ) and having something to do with the air or something??

I have 16,000 reasons for you  Silly 16R/34L.

Back on topic, there were rumors AF was alll set to start DEN, then Gov. Owens mouthed off at the French...
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Spoke2Spoke (Reply 2):
United wants you through the Star FRA hub, or their IAD int'l gateway so is therefore probably reluctant to start a non-stop. However, I wonder if the route would be nonetheless profitable.

If...sorry when open skies are agreed between the UK and US, UA will look to start DEN-LHR
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:49 am

DEN might be a big hub for cross country travel, but the city is moderately sized and doesn't have a huge corporate base to support many flights to Europe.

DFW and SEA are both significantly larger, and have a much larger corporate basse to support such a flight. I would expect either of them to see AF before DEN.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DFW and SEA are both significantly larger, and have a much larger corporate base to support such a flight. I would expect either of them to see AF before DEN.

SEA isn't really tied down to an alliance being dominated domestically by AS so it might actually be the best candidate for such since AF has tried DFW and it didn't work for them, and DFW being so tied down to OneWorld and AA since DLs departure from there early last year. The proximity of YVR however has a tendency to hurt international service to Europe and some extent Asia into SEA-TAC however.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DEN might be a big hub for cross country travel, but the city is moderately sized and doesn't have a huge corporate base to support many flights to Europe.

DEN is the smallest metro-area of all five cities UA calls hubs (if you count LAX as such).

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 17):
Back on topic, there were rumors AF was all set to start DEN, then Gov. Owens mouthed off at the French...

Can you blame him? At least for DEN there is LH and their rout into FRA, and word is they are looking at Munich in the not to distant future from there as well.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
nosedive
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
Can you blame him? At least for DEN there is LH and their rout into FRA, and word is they are looking at Munich in the not to distant future from there as well.

Yea, I can  Wink That MUC rumor has been around for years. I'll believe it when I see it on final for 16R... and if I don't see it, I know someone in DEN will blab all about it  Wink
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 14):
shows Denver being double the size of Salt Lake City (this doesn't include the heavily populated I-25 corridor around Colorado Springs).

Oh yes, the Utah/Colorado rivalry! Those numbers likewise don't include the heavily populated Provo/Orem corridor along I-15 which are 30 miles closer to SLC/Ogden than CS is to metro Denver/Boulder. If you put Utah County into the picture for the Wasatch Front (metro SLC) it would be 1/3 larger rather than double.

Quoting DIA77 (Reply 14):
Also, DL never seriously considered a move from SLC to DEN (although there is a rumor that AA was heavily courted after CO's hub departure in 1994).

Actually Pena wanted all three major legacies after CO bailed. He knew he had UA, but he also wanted AA to build a hub at the DIA site as well as move DL over from SLC. Getting federal funding and loans was a big part of this, and proactively seeking hub operations from the other players was a very important part of this.
DL listened to the pitch, but as mentioned never took it seriously.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
vega
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 1):
PHL & DTW will for sure get a bigger capacity (A343 iso A332) and a DAILY flight soon in winter

AF currently uses a 343 to PHL.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
SEA isn't really tied down to an alliance being dominated domestically by AS so it might actually be the best candidate for such since AF has tried DFW and it didn't work for them, and DFW being so tied down to OneWorld and AA since DLs departure from there early last year. The proximity of YVR however has a tendency to hurt international service to Europe and some extent Asia into SEA-TAC however.

Plus AF/KL are AS partners, and NW has a sizeable operation in SEA as well.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 24):
Plus AF/KL are AS partners, and NW has a size-able operation in SEA as well.

AS likewise has a fairly large code-share agreement with DL involving SLC flights.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
DIA
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 20):
DEN is the smallest metro-area of all five cities UA calls hubs (if you count LAX as such).

You've got to start considering the "Front Range" area instead of just Denver Metro. This "Front Range" corridor from Cheyenne down to Pueblo forms the majority of pax originating at DIA...which is a lot more people than just Denver Metro.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DFW and SEA are both significantly larger, and have a much larger corporate basse to support such a flight. I would expect either of them to see AF before DEN.

I'd agree with DFW being first, but not SEA.




In sum, AF is considering DEN service with an A332. Decision is up in the air.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
worldxplorer
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 26):
In sum, AF is considering DEN service with an A332. Decision is up in the air.

Has a decision date been announced or even a rough timeframe given?
 
BA
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 17):
Back on topic, there were rumors AF was alll set to start DEN, then Gov. Owens mouthed off at the French...

Oh boy, I still remember that...

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 19):
DFW and SEA are both significantly larger, and have a much larger corporate basse to support such a flight.

SEA is not really significantly larger than DEN. They're actually quite comparable.

DFW is significantly larger than DEN, however, it does already have non-stop CDG service operated by AA. Let's not forget the fortress AA has in DFW.

On the otherhand, nobody operates CDG-DEN so AF could jump in to this new market.

Either way, I would say DEN, DFW, and SEA are all strong candidates for AF in the future.

I remember 4-5 years ago when there was a lot of talk of AF coming to DEN that AF was considering DEN, DTW, and SEA. They started DTW, so now that leaves DEN and SEA from the "old list."
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):
Then why doesnt AF start SLC-CDG?

More a runway performance issue affecting route profitability than anything. SLC's longest runway is 12,000'. You need about 14,000' for a loaded 777 on a hot day at that altitude.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting DIA (Reply 26):
You've got to start considering the "Front Range" area instead of just Denver Metro. This "Front Range" corridor from Cheyenne down to Pueblo forms the majority of pax originating at DIA...which is a lot more people than just Denver Metro.

While I'll concede that Utah will NEVER be as populous as Colorado (MUCH TOO MORMON!  Smile LOL!), Colorado is not twice the size of Utah (Arizona is now however). The stretch between Castle Rock and the USAFA is a long haul down I-25 which is why most demographers look at the Front Range as being Fort Collins/Greely on down to Longmont/Boulder and Denver and the surrounding 'burbs (Lakewood, Aurora, Littleton etc...). And beyond COS, it is still a good drive down to Pueblo. COS is far enough away they pursued and successfully started air service nearly 2 decades ago.
As for SLC getting a flight to CDG or LGW, it will happen one day before too much longer. But I wouldn't call it a safe investment for either AF or DL to try right now.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting BA (Reply 28):
SEA is not really significantly larger than DEN. They're actually quite comparable.

Eh, considering the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_statistical_areas_by_population

SEA is 36% larger than DEN and nearly one million more people - I consider that to be "significant". Additionally, SEA has many more large corporations that could help to support a flight to CDG and beyond, including Boeing, Microsoft, etc.

Not saying DEN couldn't do it, just saying other cities could better support a CDG service at this time, including cities that have been rumored to be competing with DEN for AF.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 22):
Oh yes, the Utah/Colorado rivalry!

 Cool
Utah has better snow, better skiing, and Park City is the best ski town in America lol so in my opinion Utah is better and deserves the service n/s to Paris over Colorado Big grin
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No DEN-CDG?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 32):
Utah has better snow, better skiing, and Park City is the best ski town in America lol so in my opinion Utah is better and deserves the service n/s to Paris over Colorado

Get real!    Utah's alcoholic beverage laws are the laughing stock of the entire USA  ! While they do put a stop to the wild party behavior (except for Park City  !), they do hurt Utah's bottom line. Aspen and Vail will knock the socks off Park City for being a ski town or party town for that matter any day of the week.   Colorado annually attracts 12 million skiers to Utah's 4 million, so 3x the people know the real truth about that one!   
Utah; The only state in the USA where socialized retail distribution of all alcoholic beverages is the norm!           
[Edited 2006-06-27 23:14:42] for spelling

[Edited 2006-06-27 23:17:09]
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