http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=103976

"Two Australian pilots escaped with bumps and bruises after ditching their light plane in the Pacific Ocean more than 1,000 nautical miles west of California.

After taking off from Santa Barbara, California, Ms Gray and Mr Kauter realised the plane was using too much fuel, and would not have enough to make it to Hawaii for a scheduled refuelling"

Thats crazy, I cant believe they were able to land in the water and not have serious injuries.

Quoting VHVXB (Thread starter): After taking off from Santa Barbara, California, Ms Gray and Mr Kauter realised the plane was using too much fuel, and would not have enough to make it to Hawaii for a scheduled refuelling"

Take note... pilots ditch in the ocean and it wasn't related to the number of engines on the aircraft

This is a fairly frequent occurrence - here's another recent one:-

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/05/1096949507380.html

I hadn't previously realised that light single-engined aircraft are usually fitted with extra tanks and ferried to Australia, rather than being crated up and shipped. But they usually fly in company.

Not a job I'd care to try. You'd need a strong nerve - imagine how you'd feel if the single engine coughed a few times while you were 1,000nms. from land.  

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3):

Well NAV both flights ferry flights were done by the same company as well Clamback and Hennessy.

I bet if they had four engines they wouldn't have had to ditch  

Definately one of my worst fears is being stuck in the middle of the ocean. These guys have balls; I'm glad that they were rescued.

No, but they might have had to land in Amsterdam like the Virgin Atlantic A340-600 after it lost 2 engines enroute China to LHR due to fuel problems.

Quoting ILOVEA340 (Reply 5): I bet if they had four engines they wouldn't have had to

If you don't have fuel even 8 engines will not save you  

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3): Not a job I'd care to try. You'd need a strong nerve - imagine how you'd feel if the single engine coughed a few times while you were 1,000nms. from land.

I agree. When I last crossed Lake Michigan in a single-engine airplane, there was a 5-10 minute window where, if the engine quit, I wouldn't have been able to make it to either shore. The engine sure made some funny noises during that time.....in my head, anyway.  




2H4

Does anybody know what kind of aircraft it was that they managed to (for the most part) safely land in the middle of the pacific ocean?

Quoting N353SK (Reply 10): Does anybody know what kind of aircraft it was that they managed to (for the most part) safely land in the middle of the pacific ocean?

According to the article, a Piper Seminole:






2H4

Quoting N353SK (Reply 10): Does anybody know what kind of aircraft it was

Linked story (second para.) says Piper Seminole light twin, N353SK:-

https://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=310

Quoting N353SK (Reply 10): Does anybody know what kind of aircraft it was that they managed to (for the most part) safely land in the middle of the pacific ocean?

According to the article, a Piper Seminole.

Couldn't they just shut one engine down for a while..? Aren't aircraft designed to fly on one engine, and since it wasn't a scheduled pax flight, they should have been able to do it, and restarted it sometime before Hawaii.

If they put down 1000 miles off the california coast... Doesn't that leave them quite a distance from Hawaii? I mean how could you be that far off in calculating fuel?

Slovacek747

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 15): If they put down 1000 miles off the california coast... Doesn't that leave them quite a distance from Hawaii? I mean how could you be that far off in calculating fuel?

Because the airplane is broken. Did you read the article? It's not like they took off knowing they'd be out of gas 1000 miles off the coast of California. It obviously developed a problem mid-flight. Again, if you'll read the article, you'll see that this particular ferry company has had to ditch on delivery flights more than one time. Sometimes it happens.

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 1): Thats crazy, I cant believe they were able to land in the water and not have serious injuries.

Yay for life-vests!  

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 14): Couldn't they just shut one engine down for a while..? Aren't aircraft designed to fly on one engine,

Yeah, but they fly slower - and you'd have to use full throttle on the working engine to maintain height, thus using fuel at a faster rate for a much longer period; and maybe overheating it. Come to that, the Piper Seminole may not have cross-feed, most small twins don't as far as I know. Either way, about three chances out of four they'd finish up in the drink anyway. And there wouldn't be all that many ships around, best to ditch near one that was handy.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 15): If they put down 1000 miles off the california coast... Doesn't that leave them quite a distance from Hawaii?

SFO-HNL is just about exactly 2,000nms.

[Edited 2006-06-12 07:59:32]

Was this incident caused by poor planing, strong headwinds, or a mechanical issue? Anyone have an idea?

Quoting LH463 (Reply 19): Was this incident caused by poor planing, strong headwinds, or a mechanical issue? Anyone have an idea?

Well this incident is not first time for this Company it happend twice before. You can count poor planning as the company hasn't learnt from its previous mishaps which were similar to this one.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 20): SFO-HNL is just about exactly 2,000nms.

According to Great Circle Mapper it's 2399.

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 20): You can count poor planning as the company hasn't learnt from its previous mishaps which were similar to this one.

If you read the link you'll find that fuel consumption on one engine went off the clock. You can't 'plan' for that. Several things could have caused it, the most likely are faults in the mixture control or ignition systems.

Just saw it on the afternoon TV news summary, including shots of the aeroplane after it ditched. Quite a heavy swell, and a few whitecaps - the pilot did well anyway, it got down in one piece. The pilot confirmed fuel problems.

PS Not important, ANother, but at a guess that figure's statute miles, not sea-miles.

[Edited 2006-06-12 09:09:01]

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 20): Well this incident is not first time for this Company it happend twice before. You can count poor planning as the company hasn't learnt from its previous mishaps which were similar to this one.

Wow, I'm impressed. Care to share with the rest of us how you determined the accident cause from a newspaper article?   

They were a lot farther from California than 1000nm when they ditched. That was just when the problem was noticed and they elected to carry on to Hawaii. They actually ditched 535mi (465nm) northeast of Hilo. If you read the articles below, the pair had help quite quickly since the authorities knew that there was a problem and were keeping an eye on their radio transmissions. The Coast Guard and Navy were able to get a C-130 and P-3 out there to meet the Piper and set up the ditching near a cargo ship. The pilots also almost went to China instead of coming here to Honolulu. Luckily the cargo ship decided to change course to be closer to Honolulu to allow a Coast Guard cutter to retrieve them.

Pair safe after ditching plane

Much help in ditching plane

Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 1): Thats crazy, I cant believe they were able to land in the water and not have serious injuries.

Small prop aircraft survive quite well when doing a planned ditching in water. The slower speed that they can fly at allows for this to happen. Most of the time the deaths are due to drowning rather than the force of the impact.

In fact, many years ago a Pan Am aircraft (props of course) also ditched in the Pacific on the way to HNL. They were also lucky in that they were able to do it near a Coast Guard ship and everyone on the aircraft survived.

According to the news, the AC was on a delivery flight.

The question is: Is this a brand new a/c or second hand from a carrier. I am going to see if i can get the rego.

Quoting BayAreaPilot (Reply 23): Quoting VHVXB (Reply 20): SFO-HNL is just about exactly 2,000nms. According to Great Circle Mapper it's 2399.

The flight departed Santa Barbara -- lower distance 2156 nm.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 3): You'd need a strong nerve - imagine how you'd feel if the single engine coughed a few times while you were 1,000nms. from land.

imagine that on a 777 or A330 …

If only they could have reached Land.The Aircraft might have been saved.
regds
MEL

Being a seminole, how the heck would there be room for ferry tanks with two people onboard?! The airplane only has a range of about 800-850nm. So how did they plan to fly the airplane a few thousand miles to Hawaii.

And that guy in the 182...stupid!!! You don't fly a single piston engine airplanes over a large body of water. Don't care how many hours you have. Any pilot that makes the choice to fly 1 piston engine over a large body of water is a dumb pilot to me. Everyone knows the unwritten rule.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 24): In fact, many years ago a Pan Am aircraft (props of course) also ditched in the Pacific on the way to HNL. They were also lucky in that they were able to do it near a Coast Guard ship and everyone on the aircraft survived.

Yes, and this event was the reason that that three-letter airport code for Maui is OGG.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...qa3901/is_200006/ai_n8911736/pg_12

"Clipper Capt. Richard N, Ogg had to ditch Clipper Sovereign of the Skies mid-point between Honolulu and San Francisco (see Air Classics March 1997). Having left Hawaii for a routine overnight flight with 27 passengers and seven crew aboard, the plane cruised along nicely until engine No. 1 over-speeded and its prop began to windmill out of control. Unable to feather the prop, Capt. Ogg contacted the skipper of the US Coast Guard weather ship Pontchartrain, acting as "Ocean Station November," telling the ship captain to stand by for a possible ditching. As Capt. Ogg neared the B-377 to the point-of-no-return, No. 4 engine acted up and had to be feathered. Plans were made to ditch, but not until morning.

Under clear weather and calm seas, Capt. Ogg, also a former B-314 Clipper captain, lowered the B-377's flaps, lined up with the Pontchartrain and settled the Clipper into Pacific waters in a tumultuous spray of water that inflicted severe damage to the plane. With aft-seated "President"-class passengers moved forward into the "Rainbow" tourist section, the tail, as Capt. Ogg had predicted, broke away upon impact as did the inboard port propeller that tore a wide gash in the B-377's upper fuselage. Other than minor cuts and bruises to five passengers, everyone was safely evacuated within five minutes of the ditching and were soon on life rafts to the waiting Pontchartrain which then proceeded east to San Francisco. With its tail shorn off, the wrecked B-377 resembled a WWII torpedoed freighter as it nosed downward and slipped from sight within 20 minutes of its ditching. Before leaving the site, a few floating mail bags and passenger suitcases were plucked from the sea; but a number of dogs and birds in the cargo area were drowned when the B-377 sank. Cause of failure on engine No. 1 and its windmilling prop was later estimated to be due to a master rod bearing breakdown while problems with No. 4 resulted from a failure in the impeller drive gear train.

Not surprising, the human interest side to the near disaster had caught the attention of the mass media. Captain Ogg was an overnight hero and Life magazine was one of many periodicals that detailed the account and advertised its story by plastering a colored photo of the Clipper's sinking across its 29 October 1956 cover."

Quoting Saturn5 (Reply 8): If you don't have fuel even 8 engines will not save you

Reminds me of the old saying that the only time you have too much fuel is when you're on fire.
 

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 29): Being a seminole, how the heck would there be room for ferry tanks with two people onboard?! The airplane only has a range of about 800-850nm. So how did they plan to fly the airplane a few thousand miles to Hawaii. And that guy in the 182...stupid!!! You don't fly a single piston engine airplanes over a large body of water. Don't care how many hours you have. Any pilot that makes the choice to fly 1 piston engine over a large body of water is a dumb pilot to me. Everyone knows the unwritten rule.

Do you think people are so stupid as to deliberately take off without enough fuel, something was done to give the plane enough range for the flight to HNL.

And people cross from Florida to the Bahamas in single engine planes every single day, it is not unheard off, you just calculate your risks.

FWIW I recall the Seminole having a tank selector the same as a Cherokee or Warrior, so if they did cut the thirsty engine they would be able to feed from one tank to the still running engine. However, the Seminole (at least the one's I've flown in with 180hp a side) barely has enough power on one engine to hold altitude at 90 knots. Add in above standard temps and you'd have a recipie for a controlled descent to a ditching likely sooner than they managed to get by leaving both engines running and getting normal cruise speed.

I expect that that firm and others like it deliver hundreds of light, and even single-engined, types trans-ocean every year, without incident.

The alternative for the manufacturers/dealers would be to set up assembly/testing stations in every single overseas country they do business with. Which would just make aeroplanes even more expensive to buy.

It's almost certainly classed as an 'acceptable risk.' And the risks are only to the pilots, who are professionals and will know the score.

Quoting VHVXB (Thread starter): Ms Gray and Mr Kauter

Quoting KSYR (Reply 6): These guys have balls

Ahem!

Quoting Joffie (Reply 25): I am going to see if i can get the rego.

I really wish people would read the thread and cited articles before posting  . That's one of half a dozen examples of wasted electrons in this thread.

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 29): Everyone knows the unwritten rule.

Would you clue me in, because I'm not familiar with any unwritten rules?

This is an experienced outfit. According to http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/10/05/1096949507380.html, Ray Clamback has made more than 250 ferries across the Pacific. The only thing I would take issue with, were I PIC or a passenger, would be flying without companion aircraft. They are forutunate that they were able to plan the ditching, rather than suddenly finding themselves in the water. If the latter were the case, then a company aircraft might have been the only one able to issue a distress call.

BAB

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11): According to the article, a Piper Seminole:

.. with retractable gear it seems... I guess its crucial for water landings.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18): Yeah, but they fly slower - and you'd have to use full throttle on the working engine to maintain height, thus using fuel at a faster rate for a much longer period; and maybe overheating it. Come to that, the Piper Seminole may not have cross-feed, most small twins don't as far as I know.

I have yet to come across a light twin that doesn't have crossfeed capability.

Grumman Cougar
Beech Duchess
Beech Baron
Piper Seminole
Piper Seneca
Piper Apache
Piper Aztec
Piper Navajo
Piper Chieftain
Cessna 310,401,402,340,335,404,421

All of them have crossfeed capability.

[Edited 2006-06-12 18:09:22]

Quoting StanstedFlyer (Reply 35): Quoting VHVXB (Thread starter): Ms Gray and Mr Kauter Quoting KSYR (Reply 6): These guys have balls Ahem!

hey, some of the Australian women pilots I've worked with DO have balls!

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 14): Couldn't they just shut one engine down for a while..? Aren't aircraft designed to fly on one engine, and since it wasn't a scheduled pax flight, they should have been able to do it, and restarted it sometime before Hawaii.

Quoting AvroArrow (Reply 33): FWIW I recall the Seminole having a tank selector the same as a Cherokee or Warrior, so if they did cut the thirsty engine they would be able to feed from one tank to the still running engine. However, the Seminole (at least the one's I've flown in with 180hp a side) barely has enough power on one engine to hold altitude at 90 knots. Add in above standard temps and you'd have a recipie for a controlled descent to a ditching likely sooner than they managed to get by leaving both engines running and getting normal cruise speed.

Light twins have two engines for a reason, they need the second one to keep flying. If you lose one engine the second one will fly you all the way to the scene of the crash.


back when I used to subscribe to Plane and Pilot magazine one of the columnists did a lot of work as a ferry pilot. SBA-ITO is the shortest crossing between the mainland and Hawaii and it requires a lot of planning. But of course there are things you cannot plan for, you just hope you catch them in time so you can divert.

I thought the Piper Seminole was ETOPS certified?  

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 40): Light twins have two engines for a reason, they need the second one to keep flying. If you lose one engine the second one will fly you all the way to the scene of the crash.

Mixture, Props, Throttles, Identify, Verify, Feather  

Thank God they survied this ditching. Must be they were well prepared and lucky too.
This link is very interesting. It is about the ditching of a GA aircraft by Clamback and a co-pilot in 1999. They ended up swimming for 11 hours before being pulled from the ocean. This case involved a a used, single engine a/c who's recently rebuilt engine failed abut 600 miles from Hawaii. It discusses the preparations for such ferry flights including for a water ditching but also (as is part of the features of that website) about what to learn from that experience to reduce risks from ditching in the future, something that probably helped in this recent case. http://www.equipped.com/1199ditch.htm

Quoting BaylorAirBear (Reply 36): The only thing I would take issue with, were I PIC or a passenger, would be flying without companion aircraft.

They were flying with a companion aircraft, so what's the issue?

Still, it's a pretty amazing story. I imagine it must be a very scary prospect to be faced with.

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 14): Couldn't they just shut one engine down for a while..?

I have flown Seminoles for 50 hours. Yes, you can shut one engine down, but there is a problem with the Seminole. It only has 180 horse engines. Unless it is a cool day, the Seminole won't maintain altitude at Vyse and be able to climb very well if at all. You might be able to stay level if you don't mind getting near Vmc. Even then, one engine will die before the other so you might have a few uncomfortable minutes right above Vmc. If you can stay level with one engine you will be flying so slow, you won't gain anything by doing it. Might as well keep them both going, see how far you can make it and get them both feathered as soon as the engines die. Maintain your level flight attitude and let the speed bleed off to best glide and maximize your glide distance.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18): the Piper Seminole may not have cross-feed, most small twins don't as far as I know.

They sure do have cross-feed. There are two fuel selectors between the two front seats behind the flap handle. There are 3 settings: on, off, cross-feed. Checking the cross-feed is part of the standard run-up before you even get to the runway.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 2): Take note... pilots ditch in the ocean and it wasn't related to the number of engines on the aircraft

Glad all were ok, but seriously, Great Post!!  

Quoting SLUAviator (Reply 45): Checking the cross-feed is part of the standard run-up before you even get to the runway.

Yup. At ERAU the SOP calls for switching the selectors to x-feed when leaving the ramp, leave them on x-feed during taxi to the runup area and then switching them back to on.

The seminole is not exactly fuel efficient, specially considering many single engine props are faster than it (Mooneys, Columbia 350/400 etc). The only reason the seminole is still in production is because it is a good multi trainer, but it sucks as a light business twin. Also at around $500k a pop, they're kinda overpriced for what they are if you ask me.

If only piper had kept the turbo-seminole in production...  

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 29): And that guy in the 182...stupid!!! You don't fly a single piston engine airplanes over a large body of water. Don't care how many hours you have. Any pilot that makes the choice to fly 1 piston engine over a large body of water is a dumb pilot to me. Everyone knows the unwritten rule.

Granted they were flying over water but.......The distance between SFO-HNL is 2398 miles // the distance between JFK-SEA is 2421 miles. So its not a stretch of the imagination. Most delivery flights,especially super long distance ones, have the interior totally gutted except for insulation and pilot seats and possibly electronics only necessary for the trip. Some also have ferry tanks installed to help them make the distance. If there was an engine failure/malfunction , then this could preclude them making it to their destination. This company and others like them have made oodles of these trips before with very few losses. With the advent of instant global media any little thing going wrong with an airplane makes news.
KD MLB

Quoting BR715-A1-30 (Reply 14): Couldn't they just shut one engine down for a while..?

The drag of countering the asymetric thrust is very high. You only get about 20% of the performance you'd otherwise see in a Seminole. And running one engine flat out for hours is a bit of a gamble as well.

Steve