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airmailer
Posts: 478
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 11):
Bashing Airbus is like bashing France

You mean that it's childs play?
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 47):
By your logic, Boeing should tell RR to take a hike.

No mon ami it sounds like your ILlogic. Never ever said that. I re-state the truly global company Airbus is. Reason? I know not of any Europeans at senior level at Boeing. Airbus has Leahy, an American, a good one at that.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 47):
I really don't understand your hatred for Boeing and the US - it's pretty damn pathetic. If you could try to step back and be maybe contructive and objective maybe you wouldn't come across as such a loser. Frankly, you come across as the exact Euro equivalent of the ugly American. Either way it's not a pretty sight.

This is possibly the most hateful thing anyone has posted on a.net in a long while. A real pity. I will learn a lesson from the great American Randy B and take "the high road" rather than respond to it
 
wjcandee
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 5):
It just shows that Boeing is light years ahead of airbus in the area of public relations.

It is also easy to be reasonable when you are on top.

A phrase that I like to use to describe the above: "Losers spin. Winners grin."
 
okelleynyc
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 51):
I know not of any Europeans at senior level at Boeing.

Hey EbbUK, I really enjoy reading your posts and consider you a valuable member of the A.net forum. Plus, I think you're often "spot on" on many issues and a great counterpoint to often one sided discussion.

Having read your most recent post, I wanted to see for myself if this was true. Apparently it is, but it got me to thinking as well. You could look at this in another way. I noticed that at least Boeing employs women and minorities in it's Executive Leadership for Boeing as a whole and for the Commercial Airplane division. As for EADS or Airbus, I found none. Maybe I wasn't looking in the right place, but used the annual report as a source.

Which is better? An international good ol' boys club or a diverse domestic home grown team. I don't know other than to say that one should find the very best individual available for a given task regardless of their nationality, race, sex, creed......

I'm not sure what an "internationally" diverse leadership team brings you if they aren't the best people for position.

P.S. I'm rooting for you guys in tomorrows match! Go England!
Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:17 am

I would hope that everyone would understand that praise for Boeing and Randy's blog doesn't mean that Airbus as a company is inferior. As for me, I believe that Airbus is a good company; the problem I have is with past comments by Forgeard and Leahy, and a number of potential problems with Airbus' management. These things are not necessarily reflective of Airbus' intrinsic strength. I think that a lot of Americans may believe the same as I.

I am in favor of transatlantic friendship among our various nations and hope that these Boeing versus Airbus disputes don't detract from it.

[Edited 2006-06-25 02:24:36]
What's fair is fair.
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:36 am

About 25 years ago, Airbus was nothing. Today, Airbus delivered more planes and took more orders on an annual basis than the industry benchmark competitor. Like it or not, people like Leahy (more than Forgeard IMO) contributed greatly to the success Airbus is enjoying over the last couple of years. Ask Airbus customers about Leahy, and their answers might be much more positive than you expected, and also ask Boeing about Leahy's contribution to the situation they ended up in for a couple of years (i.e. even after acquiring another competitor - MDD - they lost their clear market leadership to the benefit of Airbus).

It's nice Baseler has a blog. Nowadays, everyone has a blog. People, in particular high level managers, at my company do write blogs. Nice blogs. Am I sure they write their blog themselves? Don't think so. People like Randy are busy doing more important things than writing down blogs and there are very professional people in their PR department who can do that at a much lesser cost per hour. In the end, should we care much - probably not. Why? It's all PR / employee relationship work, some subtle form of marketing. And it works - obviously. Otherwise people would not continue posting "Randy wrote this" and "Randy wrote that" every second day on this board. And if it's just for the sake of establishing him as "nice Randy, that decent person of Boeing" as opposed to "Leahy this freakin' a*****e of Airbus"

Obviously, as someone said, it proves just one thing. B knows a lot better how to do PR well. After years of bad press, they deserve it. But John Leahy is not as bad a person as people suggest. In the end, he did a great job in his role, and that's what counts. And he was, as press is reporting, among the first managers in Airbus who started pushing for an all new A350. And that was apparently as early as when Forgeard was still leading Airbus...

Cheers
T
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 53):

Which is better? An international good ol' boys club or a diverse domestic home grown team. I don't know other than to say that one should find the very best individual available for a given task regardless of their nationality, race, sex, creed......

I'm not sure what an "internationally" diverse leadership team brings you if they aren't the best people for position.

Good or bad, better or worse I don't know. But whoever gets the planes sold by the bucket load is fine by me, as it whatever team of individuals design the best possible plane for the mission.

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 53):

P.S. I'm rooting for you guys in tomorrows match! Go England!

If England are dumped out tomorrow, you can expect fire and heat in my posts for the next FOUR years. Come on Eng-erland

Quoting Okelleynyc (Reply 53):
Hey EbbUK, I really enjoy reading your posts and consider you a valuable member of the A.net forum. Plus, I think you're often "spot on" on many issues and a great counterpoint to often one sided discussion.

You are too kind, thanks for saying that.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 51):
I re-state the truly global company Airbus is. Reason? I know not of any Europeans at senior level at Boeing. Airbus has Leahy, an American, a good one at that.

Seddik Belyamani from Morocco retired a few years ago from Boeing as VP for Sales. Not European, but I think African is part of being global just as much as European or American personally. I'm sure there are other examples out there as well but I'm not going to waste my time diggin them up. Okellynyc does make an interesting point as well about diversity which I think most would consider to be related to being "global". I'd like to see you respond to this as well.

I know that EADS/Airbus is a very global company, they have operations in the state I live in as does Boeing. Both companies have employees, suppliers, and customers scattered all over the globe. Either company would be making a big mistake by not utilizing the diverse talents of the world. Your indirect asssertion that Boeing is not a "truly global" company is ridiculous.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 54):
I would hope that everyone would understand that praise for Boeing and Randy's blog doesn't mean that Airbus as a company is inferior. As for me, I believe that Airbus is a good company; the problem I have is with past comments by Forgeard and Leahy, and a number of potential problems with Airbus' management. These things are not necessarily reflective of Airbus' intrinsic strength. I think that a lot of Americans may believe the same as I.

Here here! While I personally prefer Boeing, I certainly do take the view that Airbus is a good company and I have a lot of respect for how they went from being the industry laughing stock with the A300B1/B2/B4 to being #1 in aircraft delivered on an annual basis with a full product line. Its too bad their management is running into problems.
 
yellekc
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 58):
Its too bad their management is running into problems

More like their management is the problem.

Its sure not their engineering or building talent.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:25 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 57):
Seddik Belyamani from Morocco retired a few years ago from Boeing as VP for Sales. Not European, but I think African is part of being global just as much as European or American personally.

It wouldn't take much thought to realise that Africa is part of the global network. Fantastic achievement by Belyamani and Boeing.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 57):
Your indirect asssertion that Boeing is not a "truly global" company is ridiculous.

Possibly the worst accusation anyone can level at me is that I am indirect. Everything else I can take on the chin. So, as the Americans say, "don't even go there"

My assertion was very direct "airbus is more global than Boeing" for the reasons given, though you raise the valid point about Belyamani, he no longer works at Boeing. Besides, from my conversations with colleagues who've worked for US companies, VPs are two to a penny, or put another way, he'd have held less sway at Boeing than Leahy currently does at Airbus.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 57):
Okellynyc does make an interesting point as well about diversity which I think most would consider to be related to being "global". I'd like to see you respond to this as well.

I will respond to that with a question if I may, which of the two orgnisations do you think will be the first to employ a minority to the top tier of management?

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 57):
I'm sure there are other examples out there as well but I'm not going to waste my time diggin them up.

Ok let's together not labour the point. Deal?

[Edited 2006-06-25 12:30:23]
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
I will respond to that with a question if I may, which of the two orgnisations do you think will be the first to employ a minority to the top tier of management?



Quote:
James A. Bell is chief financial officer and executive vice president of finance of The Boeing Company, the world's largest aerospace company. He was named as acting CFO on Nov. 24, 2003, and formally elected to the position by the Boeing board of directors in January 2004. From March through June 2005, in addition to his CFO duties Bell served as Boeing president and chief executive officer on an interim basis.

CFO is definitely top tier, President and CEO even higher.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
Ok let's together not labour the point. Deal?

Deal

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
Possibly the worst accusation anyone can level at me is that I am indirect. Everything else I can take on the chin. So, as the Americans say, "don't even go there"

Bad wording on my part, I should have noted that you made your point implicitly rather than indirectly. My mistake and I apologize.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 61):
CFO is definitely top tier, President and CEO even higher.

et voila. Airbus has some way to go.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
Besides, from my conversations with colleagues who've worked for US companies, VPs are two to a penny, or put another way, he'd have held less sway at Boeing than Leahy currently does at Airbus.

Belyamani occupied the same position at Boeing that Leahy occupies at Airbus.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
widebody
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:55 pm

Randy's blog is PR and nothing else. And it's good PR given the attitudes and statements of those high up in Airbus. HOWEVER, taking a PR exercise as 'the attitude of the Boeing company' is just plain wrong, as it would be to take Leahy's thoughts as the thoughts of the Airbus company and its people. I've had the opportunity to sit at a table on numerous occasions with both Airbus and Boeing representatives for different issues, and the venom towards Toulouse is quite incredible. Boeing representatives are much less willing to co-operate on issues which affect both companies, and generally appear to have no regard for Airbus nor its products. Airbus have generally appeared to be open to new ideas and new facets of co-operation. Would it be right for me to take these people's opinions as those of their fellow colleagues?
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
My assertion was very direct "airbus is more global than Boeing"

Your assertion may be direct, but your conclusion is anything but. Are you attempting to assign superiority to Airbus because you think they are more global? Why in the world would this even matter to *anybody*?
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 63):
Belyamani occupied the same position at Boeing that Leahy occupies at Airbus.

And all he got was a VP title? An achievement none the less.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 65):
Are you attempting to assign superiority to Airbus because you think they are more global? Why in the world would this even matter to *anybody*?

no dear boy, for if ever I would want to do that, I would. As I haven't in this or any other case, you can take it as read that that was not the intention.

I made an observation and it was somehow blew up out of all proportion.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 66):
And all he got was a VP title? An achievement none the less.

VP for Sales for the largest exporter from the US is a pretty significant position any way you slice it. You may be thinking of our banking system where most anybody who doesn't mop the floors is some flavor of VP (not that bad I know, but close). Most banks now will call any semi-senior loan officer a VP as well as the manager of even very small branches with no more than 4-5 employees.

Do you still think that Airbus is "more global" than Boeing or would you now agree that both are very global companies and arguing about who is more global makes no more sense than arguing about what color is best.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 66):
no dear boy, for if ever I would want to do that, I would. As I haven't in this or any other case, you can take it as read that that was not the intention.

I made an observation and it was somehow blew up out of all proportion.

Do you customarily make observations without making plain your conclusions or intentions? Since this thread deals with how one manufacturer responds to another, it's reasonable to assume that your observation somehow pertains to this very topic. Given that one of your hobbies is Airbus, it seems doubly reasonable that your observation pertains to this topic. If you don't like being called indirect, then be direct.

What was the intent of your observation? What conclusion(s) should the reader reach? We can't take them "as read" because you didn't offer any.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ebbuk
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 67):

Do you still think that Airbus is "more global" than Boeing or would you now agree that both are very global companies and arguing about who is more global makes no more sense than arguing about what color is best.

Yes, Airbus is still "more" global than Boeing. There is no argument about that fact. Boeing "had" a foreign national at a senior level, Airbus "has" one at senior level. What else to say there?

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 68):
What was the intent of your observation? What conclusion(s) should the reader reach? We can't take them "as read" because you didn't offer any.

My intent was to report a fact as I saw it. Whatever conclusion a reader of that fact wants to reach is up them. If they can read the words then they are bright enough to reach a conclusion, no spoon feeding necessary.

I would hasten to add that when a reader fails to take the thread of a thought from it's root, he/she will have difficulties understanding the point being made, as you have illustrated.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting Widebody (Reply 64):
I've had the opportunity to sit at a table on numerous occasions with both Airbus and Boeing representatives for different issues, and the venom towards Toulouse is quite incredible. Boeing representatives are much less willing to co-operate on issues which affect both companies, and generally appear to have no regard for Airbus nor its products. Airbus have generally appeared to be open to new ideas and new facets of co-operation

Thats very interesting Widebody thank you and it just confirms my opinion about Boeing company.
They are really much better with PR.

They want try to give a mature look with press, but behind the scenes they act as same stupid (or even more) as Leahy & Foregeard.  thumbsdown   butthead 
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 69):
Yes, Airbus is still "more" global than Boeing. There is no argument about that fact. Boeing "had" a foreign national at a senior level, Airbus "has" one at senior level. What else to say there?

I give up! You persist in equating "global" to having a senior mgt player from another country when this is such a small part of what makes a company global.  banghead   banghead   banghead  I've worked for companies here where more than half the management were foreign born and I can assure you that this does not make them "global". I thought we were making progress but I must have been dreaming.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
deltadc9
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 29):
Well Randy says they've built 9 so far without much success, but early days, plenty of time to get the glue mix right.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the "glue". Resin is not glue BTW. They were experimenting with a different cheaper mandrel. It is called R&D.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 43):
But you guys shouldn't blame airbus for that because most of the 50 000 ppl working there would never say such BS instead they respect a lot Boeing and give a big merit for the 787.

Wrong, corporations must have a "voice", and they are responsible for their public face because they created it.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 60):
Besides, from my conversations with colleagues who've worked for US companies, VPs are two to a penny, or put another way, he'd have held less sway at Boeing than Leahy currently does at Airbus.

Not really very accurate. Titles are mostly tied to pay scales, job description are usually not. Different industries handle things differently, and at Boeing, VP is a major achievement. At American General Finance, not so much.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 66):
And all he got was a VP title? An achievement none the less.

See above.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 69):
Yes, Airbus is still "more" global than Boeing. There is no argument about that fact. Boeing "had" a foreign national at a senior level, Airbus "has" one at senior level. What else to say there?

Boeing has been in India since the 777 project with a very large footprint, and has been in Russia, Japan, Europe, Austrailia, and many other places with large operations and local talent at the top. Your premis holds no water, they are by definition as global as you can get.

I also know for a fact that there are no barriers to foreign nationals attaining top tier positions at Boeing, but at the same time, it would seem the management team is doing just fine. Maybe it is because it is an American company run by Americans that has led it to where it is today. At the same time, they are not stupid, and when a foreign born exec meets the requirements and is the best candidate for a position, they will choose that person.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 71):
I give up! You persist in equating "global" to having a senior mgt player from another country when this is such a small part of what makes a company global. I've worked for companies here where more than half the management were foreign born and I can assure you that this does not make them "global". I thought we were making progress but I must have been dreaming.

You beat me to it.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Randy B. Comments On 787 Fuse, A380 Hiccups

Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
Please find a quote from Leahy bashing Boeing about production problems.

Thats about the only thing that blowhard Leahy knows how to do, try and smack down Boeing every chance he gets. He usually ends up like  footinmouth 
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