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kc135topboom
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VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:55 pm

VS has always flown four engine aircraft, IIRC. Different models of the B-747 and A-340, with some A-380s on order (I believe).

But, the trend from Boeing and Airbus is slowly getting away from four engine airplanes (except for military aircraft). I believe the A-380 and B-747-800 will be the last of the commercial four engine aircraft.

With that, VS will eventually begin ordering a twin. Could it be the B-777, B-787, or Y-3? Or could it be the A-330 (makes them most sense), A-350, or A-370?
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3800
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:02 pm

vs flew 767s across the pond at one point - so much for their 4 for 4 rite?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:57 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
vs flew 767s across the pond at one point

They had (1) 763ER... (PH-MCG) and had it for 6 months.

Was it on lease?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
LY777
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:01 pm

Here it is:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peachair

Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
A340Driver
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:01 pm

A380 announcement and twin replacement 'rumuoured' to be anonunced at Farnborough.
 
cloudyapple
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:28 pm

Remember these guys?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Garry Lewis - AirTeamImages



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Photo © JetPix


The reg's says it G-VATH/EI-VIR

[Edited 2006-07-02 11:33:20]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
bestpilot
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
I believe the A-380 and B-747-800 will be the last of the commercial four engine aircraft.

Are you considering Russian built aircraft?
 
HUYguy
Posts: 264
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:59 pm

Weren't the VS a321's operated by a Greek firm called South East European Airlines or something like that, I can't remember the exact name.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Thread starter):
I believe the A-380 and B-747-800 will be the last of the commercial four engine aircraft.

Wasnt EK saying they would like a quad proposal from Airbus as a A340 replacement? IIRC they have a problem with ranges and payloads that cant be done by a 777 (I cant remember the exact specifics) but can bythe A340.
 
DABTH
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:52 pm

Can anybody tell me what the 321(s?) and 320(s?) where there for? Have they been feeder aircraft? And on which routes have they been operated? rgds
 
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Vasu
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RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting DABTH (Reply 9):
Can anybody tell me what the 321(s?) and 320(s?) where there for? Have they been feeder aircraft? And on which routes have they been operated? rgds

I believe they flew feeder services from Athens to London for onward connections (although I may be wrong...)
 
INNflight
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: VS Twin?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting DABTH (Reply 9):
Can anybody tell me what the 321(s?) and 320(s?) where there for?

A couple of them were flying as Virgun SUN, although I don't know whether this also fits the above mentioned planes.

They had a yellowish livery and flew charters across Europe and Northern Africa.

F.
Jet Visuals
 
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scbriml
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:05 am

Not forgetting the slogan is "4 engines 4 longhaul" the A32x planes don't exactly buck the trend.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Vasu (Reply 10):
I believe they flew feeder services from Athens to London for onward connections (although I may be wrong...)

Yup... VS flew ATH-LHR/LGW on A320s from around 1993 until 2001.
B721/722/731/732/733/735/73G/738/739/742/752/753/762/763, A300/319/320, DC-9/10, MD-82/83/88/90, ERJ-140/145, CRJ-200/700, Q200, SF340, AS350
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
Wasnt EK saying they would like a quad proposal from Airbus as a A340 replacement? IIRC they have a problem with ranges and payloads that cant be done by a 777 (I cant remember the exact specifics) but can bythe A340.

Seeing is how the 777-300ER and the 777-200LR are FAR more capable planes than their Airbus counterparts, and the new ETOPS rules are "on the way" I can see no routes that the A340 could do that a version of the 777 can't do better!

I'd like to hear if anyone knows a route that the A340-500 could do better than the 777-200LR, if commonality is not an issue.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting DABTH (Reply 9):
Can anybody tell me what the 321(s?) and 320(s?) where there for? Have they been feeder aircraft? And on which routes have they been operated? rgds

They operated ATH-LGW-ATH-LHR-ATH. I suppose they could have been used as feeder flights for Gatwick flights in the morning and evening Heathrow flights, however that wasn't their direct purpose.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 12):
Not forgetting the slogan is "4 engines 4 longhaul" the A32x planes don't exactly buck the trend

That was actually Airbus' slogan that came out with the launch of the A346 - it was never on the B747's. Most of the VS a/c have had it removed from the fuselage and now only have it on the engines.

VS wouldn't get twins any time soon - lack of ETOPS certification anyone bothered to consider that ?. That would take some time to sort out first - especially to compete with the likes of BA and UA etc as most airlines usually get a restricted certification to begin with.

The 763 was operated by Martinair on their AOC so ETOPS wasn't a problem for VS, and the sorthaul A320/1 operation didn't require ETOPS certification.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
DABTH
Posts: 64
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Planesarecool (Reply 15):
They operated ATH-LGW-ATH-LHR-ATH. I suppose they could have been used as feeder flights for Gatwick flights in the morning and evening Heathrow flights, however that wasn't their direct purpose.

Why onlly ATH and not other mmajor European cities?? Is there any kiind of connection? rgds  Smile
 
dutchjet
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:45 am

You dont really think that anyone at Virgin, including Branson, takes the four engine thing seriously.......it was/is a marketing ploy and nothing more. Do you really think that Virgin flies 4 engine aircraft because they think that 4 engines are safer/superior to twins......of course not, Virgin happens to fly a 747/A340 fleet and all of their aircraft happen to have four engines and this ridiculous "4 engines 4 longhaul" thing developed. Virgin is well aware that twins are perfectly fine for the longest of flights and the men and women at Virgin have heard of ETOPS.

When Virgin orders 777s, A350s, A370s or something else you will quickly see:

2 engines are good 2" painted on their airplanes.
 
lhrmaccoll
Posts: 567
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:12 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
2 engines are good 2"

Haha that is good
and very VS-like
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 16):
VS wouldn't get twins any time soon - lack of ETOPS certification anyone bothered to consider that ?. That would take some time to sort out first - especially to compete with the likes of BA and UA etc as most airlines usually get a restricted certification to begin with.

expect an order soon  Wink
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:28 am

Watch this space ...
 
pavlin
Posts: 391
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:58 am

The twins actually have better safety record than 4-engined. Take a look at 777 and A330
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 22):
The twins actually have better safety record than 4-engined. Take a look at 777 and A330

How many A340 losses have been the fault of the aircraft?
 
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treebeard787
Posts: 737
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RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:04 am

VS had 1 763ER and flew it on the MAN-MCO route I believe.
Allons-y!
 
irobertson
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:35 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:28 am

It never ceases to amaze me at how quickly ANY thread on A.net can turn into a petty and ridiculous A vs B war, though on here it has morphed into a 2 vs 4 war. I think that its nice to see some variety in aircraft design, instead of the same old two-holer tube. 747s and A340s are, from an entirely superficial point of view, a nice change from the norm, imho.
 
thering
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:44 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:52 am

They should get some A330-200 and A330-300 for expand their international routes!
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
spartanmjf
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:31 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:57 am

They would make a great customer for the 787-10!
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 20):
expect an order soon



Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 20):
Watch this space ...

c'mon, c'mon..don't keep us in the dark. What's in store for us VS fans? I wouldn't mind seeing a 777 or 330 in VS colours...!
"Up the Irons!"
 
AA777
Posts: 2361
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 7:07 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:17 am

The truth is, slogans like 4 engines 4 long haul arent going to make a huge difference...or any difference... if / when VS realizes the advantages of twin ops. If it means cheaper fares and more revenue..... business is business, its about revenue, not slogans. I dont think it will be long until VS bites the bullet and orders a twin.

-AA777
 
airbusa340
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:46 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:23 am

Last week I hooked up with a good friend of mine who is a senior staff member at VS. Apparently SRB has/will cancel the A380 order and has/will be ordering some A330's.
Airbusa340
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting Airbusa340 (Reply 30):
Last week I hooked up with a good friend of mine who is a senior staff member at VS. Apparently SRB has/will cancel the A380 order and has/will be ordering some A330's.

that would be a big downer for the A380 program...I still think VS will go with the A380-they need it for a few routes
"Up the Irons!"
 
gttib
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:49 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:36 am

An inside source has told me VS cancelled their order for the A380 a while back (February I believe..?) and have placed orders for 777-300s instead. Their order for the A380s will now be delivered to their majority share-holders: Singapore Airlines.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Airbusa340 (Reply 30):
Last week I hooked up with a good friend of mine who is a senior staff member at VS. Apparently SRB has/will cancel the A380 order and has/will be ordering some A330's.



Quoting GTTIB (Reply 32):
An inside source has told me VS cancelled their order for the A380 a while back (February I believe..?) and have placed orders for 777-300s instead. Their order for the A380s will now be delivered to their majority share-holders: Singapore Airlines.

seems like no one could get their stories straight.. no 

as I stated...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
I still think VS will go with the A380-they need it for a few routes
"Up the Irons!"
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:23 pm

The A380 order has been cancelled and the replacement order will be anounced at Farnborough later in July. This is currently tipped to be for 14 A330's but as with anything in Virgin, don't believe it until you read it as Boeing could just spoil the party at the last minute.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:32 pm

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 34):
The A380 order has been cancelled and the replacement order will be anounced at Farnborough later in July. This is currently tipped to be for 14 A330's but as with anything in Virgin, don't believe it until you read it as Boeing could just spoil the party at the last minute.

If this was the case, why would Virgin be seeking compensation from Airbus for the A380 delays? (See linked comment below)

Faced with the current evidence, I dont see the truth in the rumours of an A380 cancellation by Virgin.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...ess/2006/june/business_june458.xml

Quote:

Virgin, the only UK airline so far to have ordered the A380, said it planned to raise the issue of compensation with Airbus.

Article dated 16th June 2006
 
N1120A
Posts: 26574
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:37 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 8):
IIRC they have a problem with ranges and payloads that cant be done by a 777 (I cant remember the exact specifics) but can bythe A340.

While the 777 is the more capable aircraft, engine out performance on 45 degree days in Dubai means that quads are needed at times. The biggest push EK has made has not been for a quad replacement for the A340, rather it has been for a 125,000 pound GE90 to be strapped to the 77W

Quoting GTTIB (Reply 32):
Their order for the A380s will now be delivered to their majority share-holders: Singapore Airlines.

SQ are not the majority shareholders in VS, they are minority shareholders. Further, given their outward disgust with Airbus involving the A380, I doubt they would want more A380s
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 34):
The A380 order has been cancelled and the replacement order will be anounced at Farnborough later in July. This is currently tipped to be for 14 A330's but as with anything in Virgin, don't believe it until you read it as Boeing could just spoil the party at the last minute.

No offence Mr A340Driver, but if you are so in the know, then how come you are spouting off these things on internet message boards? Surely thats a big, big no-no for someone who works for VS - letting ANYTHING slip before the VS PR Machine has said anything. We have had someone on here get sacked for talking out of turn on here - I'm pretty sure VS's PR arm would take a very dim view of your comments, regardless of their veracity.

You are stating what you say as fact, with no disclaimer, just that it is fact. No offence, but if what you say is true, then you have been letting out trade secrets. They are trade secrets - any of VS's competitors would be extremely interested in what amounts to a shift in M/O, and a great change in planned capacity - forecasting long-term for any of the competitors would find this info extremely useful.

Stuff like this can affect shareprice - i'd be extremely careful about what you say. If in doubt - keep your mouth shut until VS's PR people say its ok to tell people. If there hasnt been a press release - then dont say it.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
HUYguy
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:20 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:01 pm

Quote:
SQ are not the majority shareholders in VS, they are minority shareholders. Further, given their outward disgust with Airbus involving the A380, I doubt they would want more A380s

I completely agree with the second sentence. Yeah, SQ own 49% of shares in VS, SRB owns the other controlling 51% shares. So SQ are the minority.
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2193
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:34 pm

As far as I can remember people have been predicting the demise of the VS A380 order and if it was really cancelled in Feb wouldn't they have "buried it" (thanks Jo Moore!) in all of the nonsense that was going off a couple of weeks back?
 
astuteman
Posts: 7154
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting Airbusa340 (Reply 30):
Last week I hooked up with a good friend of mine who is a senior staff member at VS. Apparently SRB has/will cancel the A380 order and has/will be ordering some A330's.



Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 37):
Surely thats a big, big no-no for someone who works for VS - letting ANYTHING slip before the VS PR Machine has said anything

But the VS PR machine HAS said something.

It said:-

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 35):
it planned to raise the issue of compensation with Airbus.

A strange thing to do indeed, if they cancelled in February (unless of course it's VS's compensation to Airbus  biggrin  )

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
Further, given their outward disgust with Airbus involving the A380,

What "outward disgust" is that? Is it with the A380 delays or the A380 itself?
IMO they haven't said much publicly (at least, no more than any other of the affected airlines).

Regards
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:02 am

I know that a twin order will be anounced, I just don't know which type it will be and VS are waiting until Farborough to anonunce it. As I said, if you don't believe me then watch this space. I'm just being honest, I don't know if it is A330 or 777.
 
A340Driver
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:40 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:05 am

p.s. How can the share price of VS be affected? It is a private company. It has two shareholders, SRB (51%) and Singapore Airlines (49%). It is not listed.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting Matt72033 (Reply 20):
expect an order soon

Never said they wouldn't order them, said don't expect them in service anytime soon. The airline will have many hoops to jump through first to get ETOPS approval.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 42):
p.s. How can the share price of VS be affected? It is a private company. It has two shareholders, SRB (51%) and Singapore Airlines (49%). It is not listed.

Is the Virgin Group not publicly listed then?

What about the Airbus share price come to think about it?

You are the first VS source to come out and state that VS have cancelled their A380s - another blow and their share price will take a hit - no doubt.

Is it down to you - a pilot for the airline - to announce this to the marketplace?

[Edited 2006-07-03 18:22:24]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 41):
I know that a twin order will be anounced, I just don't know which type it will be and VS are waiting until Farborough to anonunce it. As I said, if you don't believe me then watch this space. I'm just being honest, I don't know if it is A330 or 777.

You have not answered my query though - i am not bothered whether they do order or not - my query was - do you think it is responsible business practice to talk about company news and secrets that are potentially market-sensitive before your company has released anything to the marketplace?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 44):
Is the Virgin Group not publicly listed then?

Not as a whole, because while they are all under one umbrella, they dont all have the same ownership configuration.

Some Branson owns outright, some are part owned with majority share, some are part owned minority share and some arent owned by Branson at all. The Virgin Group is wholy owned by Branson.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 46):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 44):
Is the Virgin Group not publicly listed then?

Not as a whole, because while they are all under one umbrella, they dont all have the same ownership configuration.

Some Branson owns outright, some are part owned with majority share, some are part owned minority share and some arent owned by Branson at all. The Virgin Group is wholy owned by Branson.

Fair point - i forgot about that, but the point remains.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 47):
the point remains.

I agree. I wonder if A340Driver can get his rumours printed in Flight Global, they seem to print those things all the time.
 
Matt72033
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 10:03 pm

RE: VS Twin?

Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting A340Driver (Reply 41):
I know that a twin order will be anounced, I just don't know which type it will be and VS are waiting until Farborough to anonunce it. As I said, if you don't believe me then watch this space. I'm just being honest, I don't know if it is A330 or 777.

i know what it will be!

but i cant say, wait until farnborough......if they get through the nitty gritty in time!

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