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BatonOps
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting KITH (Reply 44):
I miss the days off 4x DC-9's to PIT!

When I was a kid at would make a daily trip to ITH to watch airplanes Allegheny/USAir had three jets (BAC 1-11's) to New York City. I think it was two to LGA and one to JFK. Plus the four jets to PIT.

I spent much of my childhood at that airport. It was great when USAir brought in the 737 and the old terminal was still in use.

Back in the 80's ITH had mulitple airlines...Empire, USAirways, Air North (then Brockway Air) It was a great viewing airport.
 
irobertson
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 49):
People in Canada are used to such drives, especially when it involves trans-border flying between the US and Canada. The fees at Canada's airports are outrageous to say the least, hence when the Canuck's decide to head south to Florida for some time in the sun in Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton or Palm Beach, it is nothing for them to drive 2+ hours to a US airport and typically knock 30-40% off the price of a flight.

Amen to this... Here's an idea of what we're talking about. I live in London (YXU). At a good time of year, I can get an AC or Canjet flight from YYZ-YHZ for about $350 round trip. YYZ is a two hour drive away. Flying out of YXU on AC adds another minimum $200 to that bill.

Recently Sunwing started a YHZ-YXU service. They have a seat sale this month, 139 bucks return. Add on $230 in tax.... total price $370... Quite the hike.
 
48v
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Beau222 (Reply 39):
Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 31):
The largest college in the country without heavy air service in its metro area is Florida State, which has GNV.

Actually Gainesville is the University of Florida.. Small difference there.
We use to have several daily flights in the early 90's that were jet service 737 727 MD88's couple times we had a few 757's for the Gators leaving on charters. but alot of the day was commuters Comair Metro's, Bandarantes (sp) and ASA Brasilias. US Air would have 737's and F100's and evernow and then what looked like an ex branif 727 burgundy with not lettering on it.

The issue with Gainesville is the close proximity of JAX (1.5 hour drive), MCO, and TPA (both about two hours), both of which offer many more flight options, and lower fares. Plus, it means that GNV is only drawing from the immediate Gainesville area, since the outlying areas (Ocala, for example) are going to be close enough to one of those other big airports to consider them first.
 
rampart
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 42):
How about 2 good college towns, SBN (GO IRISH!!!) and CMH (DOWN WITH THE BUCKEYES!!!)

I think some people have a very broad definition of "college town". Columbus, a diversified city of over 1.5 million, and a state capital at that, is not a "college town" (I mentioned the same for Tucson above). Yes, it has a college. So does Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Boston, Miami, Chicago, Denver, Houston, New Orleans, Washington, New York... (go Violets! go Rams!  Yeah sure )

For the purposes of this discussion, I've been thinking of "college towns" who are dominated by the college and college-related functions, and there is a relevant question as to whether such a burg can support regular air service. South Bend would qualify, I think, along with numerous small cities already mentioned.

-Rampart
 
bennett123
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:40 am

One major difference in the UK is that internal flights are all short haul.

This reduces the time saving, especially when you include "dead" time.

Furthermore internal flights are generally more expensive than BR.
 
N353SK
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:54 am

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that there aren't a lot of times when college students are in high demand for air service. There is huge demand for air service to/from college towns during thanksgiving, christmas, and spring break. Other than that you may have a few kids visiting home on the weekends but demand for travel during the week in a college town would be close to none.
 
midex461
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:41 am

I know it's stretching the definition of "univeristy town" by roughly 10,000 miles, but what about DAB?
You've got the ERAU campus right on the airport. Plus Daytona is still a party town during the spring. You've got Spring Break, Black College Reunion - granted most of those folks drive, but some do fly in. DL obviously makes money there, as would CO.
I think though, that its proximity to MCO is a major hinderance to further service.
Opinions and views expressed are MINE and do NOT represent the views of US Airways
 
rwsea
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting Chugach (Reply 25):
Surprised nobody has brought up this one: PUW (Pullman, Washington) with the Washington State campus. Talk about a college town. And QX has flown there successfully for years.



Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 30):
I'm surprised PUW does as well as it does. One of my friends is from Moscow, ID (PUW is Moscow-Pullman Regional) and he always flies out of GEG.

I fly to PUW 2-3x times per year from SEA, and also several times when I was a student there. United Express served the airport in the past, but currently,QX is the only carrier, and the flights tend to have very high loads. The yields on these flights are very high for QX as well - roundtrip fares are usually in the $300-400 range from SEA. Lately, they've come down a bit to around $250-300 roundtrip if you book a month or so in advance.

These flights don't do well with college students at all - most of them drive to GEG because the fares are literally 1/3 to 1/2 of what they are from PUW. But PUW is very convenient and serves two universities (Washington State University and the University of Idaho). University business can pretty much sustain these flights on their own - visiting professors and University Administrators aren't willing to add 2 hours each way to their trip to save $100 from GEG.

Also, it should be noted that LWS is just 30 miles down the road. Until recently, it was dominated by QX as well. I wonder if DL's new flights have attracted any of the folks that would otherwise go to GEG? I'd assume they're popular with students headed to Spring Break in Mexico at the least.
 
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:19 am

AUS - home of University of Texas
 
ordflier
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:22 am

USAirways Express (Air Midwest) offers twice daily service between Charlotte and Athens, Georgia with Beechcraft 1900's. Years ago they offered service with BAE Jetstream-31's, and before Piedmont flew the route with Dash 7's.

Athens, while only about 70 miles from Atlanta is the home to the University of Georgia.
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flylku
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:37 am

I flew in and out of LEB (Dartmouth College) a few weeks ago on US Air Express. It was a Beech 1900 and both ways there were only 4 people on board. It was great fun sitting in the middle bench seat at the rear of the aricraft; window on right, window on left, view of panel and windshield to the front. But, I don't think it was much fun for the airline.

The airport even provides a $150 rebates to passengers who fly five round trips. the problem is MAN just little over an hour to the south and has a solid Southwest schedule.

Graduation was the week before so I can't speak to loads during the school year at Dartmouth.

I hate to see service discontinued. LEB is a one horse town served only by US Air Express.
...are we there yet?
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:01 am

Well another thing your forgetting is that MHT and BOS are close. I know some people will say why BOS but a lot of students who are going to UNH or any of the schools outside BOS will use Logan and then move via bus service or Amtrak, even the MBTA helps out a lot. (Depending on distance).
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hz747300
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:01 am

Flagstaff, AZ - college town and has air service. What about Ithaca, NY? It too has air service, and seemingly only has two colleges.

I've been on the LGA - Ithaca run a few times and it was never full. I wondered why it was done with a Dash-8 and not 1900D. I never flew to Flagstaff when I was living in PHX because it is only 2 1/2 hours by car anyways.
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:52 am

What would a break even load be on a b1900? I know it would be EAS service, but even then what would it take at the high fares that are normally associated with these small airports.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 53):
For the purposes of this discussion, I've been thinking of "college towns" who are dominated by the college and college-related functions, and there is a relevant question as to whether such a burg can support regular air service. South Bend would qualify, I think, along with numerous small cities already mentioned.

Provo, UT used to be like Lafayette (I was born in the later and lived for the first 2 years of my life, but raised in the former! LOL!), but has grown substantially and is now much more diversified. I would also describe Tucson, AZ as being similar in what it was once upon a time. When I think of a college town, I think of Logan, UT (Utah State Univ), Cedar City, UT (Southern Utah Univ), Moscow, ID/Pullman, WA (Univ of Idaho/Washington State Univ), Bozeman, MT (Montana State Univ), Missoula, MT (Univ of Montana) or Laramie, WY (Univ of Wyoming). When you look at the Big-10 Conference schools, only 4 of them now are "real" college towns like State College, PA (Penn State), Lafayette, IN (Purdue), Bloomington, IN (Indiana Univ) or Iowa City, IA (Univ of Iowa). The rest of them are part of larger cosmopolitan areas like Chicago, Columbus, Minneapolis or greater Detroit (Ann Arbor). Even Madison and Lansing are also their respective State Capitols.
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777STL
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting BigB (Reply 58):
AUS - home of University of Texas

Austin is much more than a simple college town as most of the cities already mentioned are. Not to mention the fact that UT is one of the largest colleges in the US anyway.
PHX based
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 57):
Also, it should be noted that LWS is just 30 miles down the road. Until recently, it was dominated by QX as well. I wonder if DL's new flights have attracted any of the folks that would otherwise go to GEG? I'd assume they're popular with students headed to Spring Break in Mexico at the least.

LWS connects through DLs hub in SLC. From SLC they can connect to any of the Mexican resort towns from Cabo (SJD) to Cancun (CUN).
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 65):
Austin is much more than a simple college town as most of the cities already mentioned are. Not to mention the fact that UT is one of the largest colleges in the US anyway.

Austin is the fourth largest metroplex in Texas after Dallas/Ft Worth, Houston and San Antonio and isn't much smaller than the later. I would describe it much the way Columbus is to Ohio. The Univ of Texas is to the Big-12 Conference what Ohio State is to the Big-10 for that matter.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:03 pm

What would be the "real" college towns that are meant? Let me break it down by football conference at some of the NCAA Division 1-A level:
Big-10
Bloomington, IN (Univ. of Indiana)
Lafayette, IN (Purdue Univ.)
Iowa City, IA (University of Iowa)
State College, PA (Penn State Univ.)
The rest are within or too close to larger metro areas where the university isn't the dominating feature of the community.
Big-12 North:
Manhattan, KS (Kansas State Univ.)
Columbia, MO (Univ. of Missouri)
Ames, IA (Iowa State Univ.)
Lincoln, NE home of the one-time mighty Univ. of Nebraska Corn-Huskers is "border-line since it is also the state capitol. The rest are all within larger metro areas like Lawrence, KS is too close to Kansas City, and Boulder is part of metro Denver.
Big-12 South:
Stillwater, OK (Oklahoma State Univ.)
Waco, TX (Baylor Univ.)
College Station, TX (Texas A&M Univ.)
Lubbock, TX (Texas Tech Univ.) is borderline since Lubbock is along with Amarillo one of two significantly sized metropolises in the Texas panhandle.
Norman, OK (Oklahoma Univ.) is likewise borderline due to its close proximity with Oklahoma City. Austin (Univ. of Texas) represents the largest college town in the Big-12.
PAC-10:
Pullman, WA (Washington State Univ.)
Corvallis, OR (Oregon State Univ.)
Seattle, the SF Bay area, greater LA, greater Phoenix and Tucson are all to big to qualify for this.
Southeastern:
SEC West:
Tuscaloosa, AL (Univ. of Alabama)
Auburn, AL (Auburn Univ.)
Oxford, MS (Ole Miss)
Starkville, MS (Miss State Univ.)
Fayetteville, AR (Univ of Arkansas) This is borderline due to the booming nature of NW Arkansas (Bentonville nearby) with Wal-Mart.
Baton Rouge and LSU are too big for this.
SEC East:
Athens, GA (Univ. of Georgia)
Gainsville, FL (Univ. of Florida)
Lexington, KY (Kentucky Univ.) This one is borderline with Toyota being such a large employer in the area (Camry's are made in nearby Georgetown). The SEC east is in much larger town and areas like Knoxville, TN, Columbia, SC and Nashville, TN.
Atlantic Coast Conference:
The only two qualifiers here is Blacksberg, VA, home of Virginaia Tech, and Charlottsville, VA home of the UVA Cavaliers. Everywhere else is just too big and can't qulify.
Mountain West Conference:
Laramie, WY (Univ. of Wyoming)
Fort Collins, CO (Colorado State Univ.) This however is borderline due to its proximity to metro-Denver. ABQ, SLC, SAN, LAS, Fort Worth, Provo, Colorado Springs all are just too big to be "real" college towns.
Hopefully this college football geography lesson will help better understand what is meant by "real" college and if commercial air service is truly viable into any of them, I'd love to hear your comments along those lines. I think what really plays out is the terms size and isolation. Pullman, WA/Moscow, ID represent two research universities (Waszu and Idaho) but have service nearby in LWS or up the road in GEG or still a little further down in BOI, but is none the less isolated. Provo, UT on the other hand fit this definition once upon a time and is 50 miles from SLC. Could this warrant commercial air service into a town that has two schools (BYU & UVSC), with BYU fast becoming a major research university and is as removed as it is from SLC and the major DL hub it has to offer?
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Cory6188
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 60):
It was a Beech 1900 and both ways there were only 4 people on board

No shock there. If US would charge more reasonable fares ($250-300 roundtrip, perhaps), I would almost guarantee that the loads would be higher. Sorry, but at $500 for the roundtrip, it's not worth it to fly to LEB vs. MHT.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:06 pm

Quote:
No shock there. If US would charge more reasonable fares ($250-300 roundtrip, perhaps), I would almost guarantee that the loads would be higher. Sorry, but at $500 for the roundtrip, it's not worth it to fly to LEB vs. MHT.

Unless this is specifically aimed at the rich parents who are sending their kids through Dartmouth.
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rampart
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:15 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
What would be the "real" college towns that are meant? Let me break it down by football conference at some of the NCAA Division 1-A level:

That's more like it. I agree with every one of yours except Austin, which is a state capital, has diverse light industry/R&D, and military city as well (and too large). The only other problem in using NCAA 1-A, other than completely confusing our international A-netters, is that you miss a number of important universities that don't play 1-A football, like the Ivy League, the rest of New England, most NY, OH, and PA schools, a whole bunch of colleges in California, Illinois State (mentioned above), and the rest of the medium sized state and private schools. But, you probably weren't trying a complete laundry list, so thanks for the examples anyhow.

I stand corrected on Tucson and Provo to those more familiar with their history, when at one time they may have been more college-townish. They aren't solely college towns now, however.

Rampart
 
dia77
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 pm

Back when I was at Purdue (1995-1999), UA and NW consistently served the market to ORD and DTW respectively. AA had just pulled out but was operating to ORD. I took the UA flight quite regularly since LAF is right by campus and was often times less of a hassle than taking the Lafayette Limo to IND. About 80% of the time I flew out of IND and the rest of the time was out of LAF. If a company was paying for my trip I'd choose LAF and if I was going back home to Denver out of my own pocket I'd choose IND. The LAF flights were always packed when I flew, but as we all know, that doesn't indicate profitability.

Starting this fall, I'm going to have a similar dilemma. I'm going to grad school at Cornell and now have to deal with getting in and out of ITH. Since fares on US and NW are ridiculous into ITH, I'll probably end up going to SYR and ROC.....
 
burnsie28
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 9):
I'd be inclined to say yes... I'm personally familiar with GFK, where a small city with a medium-sized university and a medium-sized air force base effectively holds down 5 flights a day and constantly flirts with the idea of getting another carrier(it would be real nice).

Well a few things with that, not once have I heard about another carrier in GFK the whole time I've been here.

Two, another carrier wouldnt really do anything, fares would be no different.

Three, the other airline would have to park on the tarmac someplace or something, apparently NW owns the terminal, so no room for another airline.

If another airline did come, chances are it wouldnt last all that long, with all the NW worldperks people, and the fact NW has been the only game in town for a while, isnt going to help, look at Duluth, AA tried to enter, but couldnt sustain.


As for GFK, currently we are seeing 5 flights, 1 CRJ, 1 Saab, and 3 DC-9's a day, and it sometimes goes up to four DC-9's. Before 9/11 there were I think 7 flights a day to GFK. Flights are usually pretty full, minus the early AM out of MSP, but the rest, especially the night DC-9's always seem to be full.
 
alexchao
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:27 pm

Here at UCLA, our small college town is served by none other than LAX. We get about 1,800 take-offs and landings a day.  Wow!
 
SBN580
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
Bloomington, IN (Univ. of Indiana)

That is 'Indiana University.' There is no such thing as the University of Indiana. A small point, but a sore one here in Bloomington. BMG had commuter service in the distant past. The airport is making runway improvments, including lengthening. We do see some airliner charters of 727 to 737 size bringing in opposing teams to play IU at basketball or football. There is no scheduled service. Sadly, I do not see any wishes or plans for such. IND is a fifty minute drive. Most people do not see that as a hassle. Well, I do. I loved it when I lived near Palmdale, CA. and I could go from my door to PMD in 15 minutes! Sweet! That too did not last. BMG to get service would also have to make terminal improvments. Also, service to IND would be useless in my opinion. Unless you can get into a hub like CVG, ORD, ATL, DTW, etc., it is just an extra stop. So again, people would rather just drive to IND.
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knope2001
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:39 am

Another problem that hurts air service to small level communities -- university town or not -- is that most airlines simply don't fly small equipment anymore. This is true for a couple of reasons:

(1) The operating rules for < 20 seat aircraft were upgraded a handful of years ago to match that of larger aircraft. This alone makes 15-19 seat aircarft more expensive to operate and harder to break even with.

(2) There's a general passenger aversion to prop aircraft, especially ones without restrooms and flight attendents . Definitely not all passengers, but enough that over time regional airlines have tended to feel they need jets to be competitive.

So there may be instances where a smaller community has enough traffic and revenue potential to justify service, or their potential traffic and revenue is just as strong as it was 10 years ago, yet they are unserved today.

Maybe if LAF were between DEN and ABQ instead of between ORD and IND it would have service because Great Lakes is in DEN. It would not cost Great Lakes a whole lot to start flying to LAF if it was 150 miles outside of DEN because they already have plenty of 19-seat props flying there.

But LAF is where it is, and nobody at ORD flies props of any kind anymore. So maybe LAF has the potentail to produce profit if an airline was already in the 19-seat prop business at ORD. But there isn't anybody.

So why doesn't somebody at ORD add 19-seat aircraft if they could make money at LAF? There is big cost in adding a new type to a fleet beyond getting the aircraft itself You need spare parts, you need to train pilots, you need trained mechanics, you need differently-trained dispatchers, you need different ground equipment, etc, etc. There are also less obvious and intangible costs like the added work to crew scheduling, the inefficiencies of a small fleet, the opportunity cost of using ramp space in ORD for the 1900 that could be used to support larger aircarft, etc.

So it's possible that a place like LAF would generate just as many passengers and as much revenue as it did in years past but still not get airline service through no fault of its own.
 
nycflyer
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:53 am

HVN is Yale's home airport, and the contributor of much of HVN's traffic. The airport reached a peak with in the mid-90s with three airlines, including UA 737 service to ORD, but has struggled after that. Reached a low point around 2002, with 4x USExpress flights to PHL (Saabs). Now DL-Comair is in with CRJs to CVG, (3x daily, I think) that's a big improvement.

The metro area has around 500,000 people, and I believe HVN could sustain much greater service than it has traditionally had. But Yale students have always been happy to go to BDL and the NY airports.
 
BatonOps
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:58 am

DL terminated service to HVN earlier this year. The only carrier to HVN is US Express with Dash 8 service to PHL.
 
BatonOps
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 62):
I've been on the LGA - Ithaca run a few times and it was never full. I wondered why it was done with a Dash-8 and not 1900D

This spring the ITH-LGA run was up to six flights. Right now I believe it is down to four flights due to school being out. All flights are currently flown with Saab 340's.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Tempe AZ

Airport? They have their own airline: US Airways! Not to mention almost on the runways of PHX>

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 11):
MDH or Carbondale used to be a hub for Air Illinois.

And I remember flying those Twin Otters!

Quoting Rampart (Reply 21):
et, I wouldn't call Carbondale "too close" to St. Louis -- 2.5 hours on the interstates.

Actually 1.5
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:10 am

In reference to Blacksburg, Va., the nearest airport is ROA, which has decent service. The airport in Blacksburg is general aviation/corporate.
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USAFHummer
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:10 am

Boulder...we're kind of borderline metro Denver...we have public buses to Denver, but we sit kind of tucked away in our own little corner and geographically isolated from the rest of the Denver metro area...air service wise, our only airport in town is a small GA only airfield, so DEN is where most people fly in to...as students, we get free bus passes for the entire bus system which includes a bus that runs from Boulder to DEN...

Fort Collins...definitely wouldn't consider this part of the Denver metro area by any means, though DEN, being the closest major airport, does get a lot of CSU students coming in there...FNL is the closest airport to Fort Collins but as mentioned only has the G4 service from LAS, so unless you go to CSU and you're from LAS, that doesnt do a whole lot of good...CYS is also about the same distance from Fort Collins that DEN is, but I'm not sure what the deal is there with current service levels...

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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 75):
IND is a fifty minute drive.

That will get shorter with the expansion of I-69 to the south, and IND is along I-465 in the SW corner of metro Indianapolis.

Quoting SBN580 (Reply 75):
That is Indiana University.' There is no such thing as the University of Indiana. A small point, but a sore one here in Bloomington.

I was born in Lafayette and am from Purdue by origin! Just stirthepot   rotfl !!
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 29):
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think Carbondale has ever been an EAS designated airport, but nearby Marion is. Back in the regulated days, Ozark flew to Marion, not Carbondale. Legacy of that is Marion still gets flights -- with subsidy -- and Carbondale does not.

This thread is pretty much exhausted, but I happened upon this bit of trivia looking up info on Air Illinois on Perry Sloan's airtimes.com website. One of the timetables from 1975 states their slogan: "Owned by, operated by, and serving Illinoisans without help of federal or state taxes." Carbondale and Air Illinois appeared to get by strictly on civic entrepreneurism and actual fares. Then times changed.

-Rampart
 
PurdueAv2003
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:21 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 83):
I was born in Lafayette and am from Purdue by origin! Just !!

 rotfl 
Dude, you are now on my RU list for this comment! Screw IU! Go Boilers!!!
Ptu = Ftu X Anet (not to be confused with a.net)
 
planespotting
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:30 pm

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 85):
Dude, you are now on my RU list for this comment! Screw IU! Go Boilers!!!

Screw both.

Go Hawks.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
N1120A
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
MSN has some good traffic but it is not just the University of Wisconsin Madison, but also home to a few companies and the state capital. It is also close enough to ORD that people can take a shuttle and probably get a better deal even with the bus fare.

That is a very long 2-2.5 hour drive, especially when considering that MSN usually has decent fares (not as good as MDW if WN is running a special though) and MKE is another alternative that is only 1 hour

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Boulder CO

WAY too close to AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Tempe AZ

Tempe is essentially part of Phoenix and is maybe 5 exits down 10 from Sky Harbor

Quoting Stirling (Reply 7):
Tucson AZ

That is a college town and the service there is quite decent.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 21):
Tucson is a "college town" like Chicago is a "livestock commodities town".

Um, Tucson is most definately a college town. UofA is absolutely massive there.

Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 34):
Liberty University

I am sorry but how can a school without real accreditation be considered part of a "college town"

Quoting CV580Freak (Reply 41):
I would think that here in UK, bearing in mind the huge debt burden, that most Uni students hitch-hike rather than gaining a gold Amex card from good old Mom and Dad .....

Dude, the debt burden in the UK is nothing like it is in the US.

Quoting CO738 (Reply 46):
Boston...

Boston is definately the world's largest college town but it is also the economic hub for New England as well as the air gateway. You can't exactly count it.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 49):
People in Canada are used to such drives, especially when it involves trans-border flying between the US and Canada. The fees at Canada's airports are outrageous to say the least

It has nothing to do with fees. As someone who travels to Canada a minimum of once every 2 months, I have done a lot of research on fares, as YYZ is only about 50 minutes from my girlfriend's town while BUF is about 1 hour 45 with the border crossing, and the taxes and fees only add about $20 USD to the bottom line. The difference is in the base fares, which are significantly lower to the US airport.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 49):
it is nothing for them to drive 2+ hours to a US airport and typically knock 30-40% off the price of a flight.

It is more often than not a 50% reduction, but not many will drive 2+ hours. A Torontonian will drive about 1.5 hours to get to BUF, similar to what a Montrealer will drive to get to BTV.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 51):
139 bucks return. Add on $230 in tax.... total price $370... Quite the hike.

And that airline is full of it if they tell you that. The total taxes AND fees on a YXU-YHZ ticket rounds up to $60 CAD. They are hiding their own fees in that ticket price

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 62):
Flagstaff, AZ - college town and has air service.

Very little though

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
Baton Rouge and LSU are too big for this.

Pre-Katrina, Baton Rouge was absolutely dependant on LSU and is still to some degree. LSU is massive and requires a massive support network, which is why Baton Rouge had some (not much) size. The capital is more of an after thought given that most state business is really taken care of in New Orleans.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 68):
What would be the "real" college towns that are meant?

Football is not the way to determine a "real" college town. In fact, in many cases, the larger schools with the big programs are in independently large cities. College towns like Flagstaff, AZ with NAU or schools that are truly far from everything are more what should be noted.

Quoting Alexchao (Reply 74):
Here at UCLA, our small college town is served by none other than LAX. We get about 1,800 take-offs and landings a day.

Haha. Not to mention all the flights to BUR, ONT, SNA and LGB. Good to see another Bruin
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
rampart
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 87):
Um, Tucson is most definately a college town. UofA is absolutely massive there.

So you are saying that, without UofA, Tucson would be a dusty little burg on the interstate between El Paso and San Diego? Check with the thousands of Snowbirds, thousands based at or around Davis-Monthan, 10,000 at Raytheon, and all those tourists. Sure, UofA is a huge pole of employment and economic generator, but not the end-all of Tucson. The campus community of 52,000 is still a fraction of the 1million metro population. I still think much of this thread overemphasizes the influence of colleges on larger cities (you discount Boston yourself, correctly). Could be that much of the membership is at or near college age!

-Rampart
 
N1120A
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 88):
So you are saying that, without UofA, Tucson would be a dusty little burg on the interstate between El Paso and San Diego? Check

The UofA contributes a whole lot to Tucson's popularity. Snowbirds don't like to go to places that are military havens, they like to go to places that have a major balance. It is sort of like Knoxville, TN. Sure, Knoxville may have been something without Tennessee, but it got all of its flair from the university. Same with Tucson. BTW, Tucson is on the Interstate between Los Angeles and El Paso, I-8 terminates into I-10 at Casa Grande  Wink
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Mainliner
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:55 pm

Quoting PurdueAv2003 (Reply 85):
Go Boilers!!!

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   bigthumbsup 
Every flight counts.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 89):
The UofA contributes a whole lot to Tucson's popularity. Snowbirds don't like to go to places that are military havens, they like to go to places that have a major balance. It is sort of like Knoxville, TN. Sure, Knoxville may have been something without Tennessee, but it got all of its flair from the university. Same with Tucson. BTW, Tucson is on the Interstate between Los Angeles and El Paso, I-8 terminates into I-10 at Casa Grande

While the University of Arizona is a major research university, much like the University of New Mexico is to Albuquerque, there is so much more to Tucson than U of A, just as there is more to ABQ than UNM. Both are similarly populated (at or near 1 million in the greater metro environ). In the case of Tucson they are far away enough from the greater Phoenix area to justify having something significant, and like many urban areas in the west, ABQ is far enough from anything. Neither TUC or ABQ is the state capitol either.
I've often debated if Provo (PVU) were the same distance from SLC as Cedar City (CDC) is, with it's half million people in Utah County and being a similar distance away from LAS (both @200 miles along I-15), what sort of air service would exist?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
rampart
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 89):
The UofA contributes a whole lot to Tucson's popularity. Snowbirds don't like to go to places that are military havens, they like to go to places that have a major balance. It is sort of like Knoxville, TN. Sure, Knoxville may have been something without Tennessee, but it got all of its flair from the university. Same with Tucson. BTW, Tucson is on the Interstate between Los Angeles and El Paso, I-8 terminates into I-10 at Casa Grande

I can agree with all that. Universities do add culture and technology aspects to even large cities. It's just that what you point out with the diversity just doesn't exist in a Manhattan (KS), Carbondale, Lafayette, or Ithaca, which are truly dominated by the college and befit the term "college town", hence my reluctance to classify Tucson, Columbus, and Albuquerque as such.

Yup, I stand corrected on the I-8 and I-10! Been a while since I've made those commutes.

-Rampart
 
ehho
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
It is also close enough to ORD that people can take a shuttle and probably get a better deal even with the bus fare.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 87):
That is a very long 2-2.5 hour drive, especially when considering that MSN usually has decent fares

I've spent some time at UW Madison, and haven't managed once to get a good fare out of MSN anywhere. The bus costs 35$ RT to ORD (for students), and if booked well you can get LGA and DCA at 100$RT with taxes, or SFO at 180$RT taxes. These are actual fares that I personally booked last fall from ORD. No AA, UA or NW promotion at MSN can equal that, and almost neither can WN at MDW, considering that it's an hour further away from Madison than ORD, and the bus costs 50$RT.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 92):
I can agree with all that. Universities do add culture and technology aspects to even large cities. It's just that what you point out with the diversity just doesn't exist in a Manhattan (KS), Carbondale, Lafayette, or Ithaca, which are truly dominated by the college and befit the term "college town", hence my reluctance to classify Tucson, Columbus, and Albuquerque as such.

Very similarly Salt Lake City is likewise very much like Columbus as Utah is to the MWC what Ohio State is to the Big-10. Two very large research universities with substantial numbers of students pursuing post-graduate education. But in CMH and SLC, the U of U and OSU aren't the overly dominating institutions. Here in the State of Utah the difference between Logan and Provo is substantial. It was similar however once upon a time.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 91):
much like the University of New Mexico is to Albuquerque, there is so much more to Tucson than U of A, just as there is more to ABQ than UNM.

That's because New Mexico's real university lies about 4 hours south in LRU ...go New Mexico State Aggies!!!

BTW, LRU lost it's YV air connection in 2000...guess it's just too close to ELP! But 14,000 students can't be wrong  Wink

Signed,
an NMSU alum...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
cptspeaking
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 87):
I am sorry but how can a school without real accreditation be considered part of a "college town"

Get your facts straight...Liberty is fully accredited and has been for over 30 years. The law school just recieved accreditation from the American Bar Association this past semester after being founded at the beginning of the fall semester.
More info at Liberty.edu

Your CptSpeaking
...and don't call me Shirley!!
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:04 am

service from provo to southern california (SNA) John Wayne would do great for all the rich rich rich mormons going to back to so cal. the ticket prices could be super high they would pay it no prob. there are rich so cals at BYU who love to go home to see there familys alot.. the flight would be full of hot rich blondes going back home to get more money from there family to spend on expensive clothes to pick up mormon husbands at school lol seriously that flight would make great money



thats the only flight i can see making money out of provo at this time. delta runs a huge hub not too far away with non stops to almost the entire country so a flight to DEN for on UA express example i cant see being that much of an advantage since you could drive to SLC and fly where you wanted non stop rather than connect and prob get there sooner than with a connection
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 97):
thats the only flight i can see making money out of provo at this time. delta runs a huge hub not too far away with non stops to almost the entire country so a flight to DEN for on UA express example i cant see being that much of an advantage since you could drive to SLC and fly where you wanted non stop rather than connect and prob get there sooner than with a connection

From the mind of an Orange County Mormon snob attending BYU, or dare I say UVSC 'casue they can't get into BYUBig grin (considering your lack of proper grammar/capitalization etc...)  flamed  Trying to drive from Provo to SLC on a typical day to catch a flight has become very cumbersome due to the I-15 traffic starting to rival the Riverside Freeway (SR-91) through the Santa Anna Canyon on a usual commute. Provo would actually do very well, and a WN flight 2-3x per day to SNA would certainly be one that would work. UA Express can also go from PVU to SFO and LAX and do very well and HP/US could easily do a PHX run with their Mesa Express carrier. Eagle could do DFW 2x per day and come out ahead. Colorado Springs is only a slightly longer distance from DEN and their big UA hub, and they've done okay.  duck 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Can Airline Service Succeed In A University Town?

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting 48V (Reply 52):
The issue with Gainesville is the close proximity of JAX (1.5 hour drive), MCO, and TPA (both about two hours), both of which offer many more flight options, and lower fares. Plus, it means that GNV is only drawing from the immediate Gainesville area, since the outlying areas (Ocala, for example) are going to be close enough to one of those other big airports to consider them first.

GNV does well, IMO, considering the issues you mentioned. Flights to Atlanta and Charlotte offer global connections, flights to Tampa offer quick, "easy" connections to major markets, and flights to Miami satisfy the local business travelers. It isn't students filling those flights up.
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