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boeingbus
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:25 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13831017/

--> Boeing blames Airbus troubles on serving a niche market oppose to the core.

"Boeing, the US aerospace group, on Wednesday launched a sustained attack on the product strategy of Airbus and blamed its troubled European rival's current problems in the market for wide-body, long-haul jets on the decision to develop the A380 superjumbo.

The industrial development of the 555-seat A380, launched at the end of 2000, had diverted Airbus's financial and engineering resources from the core of the long-haul market, where 90 per cent of the aircraft required in the next 20 years would be in the smaller 200-seat to 400-seat segment, according to Boeing's latest market forecasts."

--> A350/70 future to be decided tomorrow at a board meeting

"A fresh proposal for an all-new aircraft family to counter Boeing's 787 and 777 ranges, which could cost up to $10bn to develop, is due to be considered by the board of EADS, the Airbus parent company, tomorrow and could be announced at next week's Farnborough airshow."

--> 737 Replacement

"Mr Baseler said Boeing had begun discussions with airlines on their future needs in thesingle-aisle market where the 737 and rival Airbus A320 family are the workhorses of the global aircraft fleet.

He said that 2012-15 could see the entry into service of the new generation 737. It would be "no earlier than 2012" and would probably be an all-composite aircraft drawing materials and manufacturing technology from the current 787 programme.

The decisions on the timing for the replacement of the current 737 and A320 aircraft will bea crucial factor in the commercial performance of Boeing and Airbus over the next decade."
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
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PanAm_DC10
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:34 am

How about we print both sides of the story huh?

Boeing Sees Limited Gain From Airbus Woes as Factories Booked

July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co., the world's second- largest maker of commercial planes, says delivery delays at Airbus SAS are unlikely to increase sales immediately because its factories already are booked for the next several years.

``There is no advantage for us here because we can only make so many planes,'' Randy Baseler, Chicago-based Boeing's chief of marketing, said in an interview.

``The downward spirals bring everybody down,'' he said.


Refer to the link below for full details of Mr Baselers views

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...20601103&sid=awOIumSpE3Wc&refer=us

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
ikramerica
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:35 am

Where is the text of any such attack, lambast or otherwise? I see no quotes in that article that show such venom, only headlines.

The FT doesn't say where the attack comes from, who did the attacking, etc. Is it in Randy's latest blog? A PR statement from Boeing?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
boeingbus
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:40 am

I agree...

from Dictioary.com

lambast

1: beat with a cane 2: censure severely or angrily;

LOL... none of that!

[Edited 2006-07-13 02:40:51]
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
StuckInCA
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:42 am

Yup. I don't see how the title they gave that article is justified by any of the article's content. Poor work.
 
boeingbus
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:44 am

my bad tho... I should have created my own topic title... instead of using FT's.

But anyhew, there is some new info here... reaffirming the 2012 737 date. board meeting at EADS to decide whether to launch or not...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Newark777
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Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:44 am

Definitely some hyperbole going on here.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:45 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 6):
Definitely some hyperbole going on here.

Maybe it's not, but since the FT doesn't bother to provide any of the quotes they are claiming are so negative, we can't tell. Maybe there are some mean spirited jibes, but there are no such links to show that.

I looked at the Boeing press releases on their website, and there are no references to Airbus in them. Randy's blog for July 12 is innocuous and just a balanced view of the market, not an attack on anything.

So, to what are the FT referring? Or are they just trying to get Europe riled up for some reason?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Aither
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:59 pm

Airbus also project that the core long range market is for mid size airplanes.

The A380 program started just after the EIS of the A330&A340.
There has been numerous improved versions of these aircraft since.

What can be criticized however is that the A380 took 10 years to be developped.
Never trust the obvious
 
dhefty
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
Maybe it's not, but since the FT doesn't bother to provide any of the quotes they are claiming are so negative, we can't tell. Maybe there are some mean spirited jibes, but there are no such links to show that.

I looked at the Boeing press releases on their website, and there are no references to Airbus in them. Randy's blog for July 12 is innocuous and just a balanced view of the market, not an attack on anything.

So, to what are the FT referring? Or are they just trying to get Europe riled up for some reason?

I think most of the content can be found here:
http://www.boeing.com/nosearch/exec_pres/CMO.pdf
 
wingman
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:02 am

Lots of flame-baiting in that FT title, not a shred of Boeing commentary lambasting Airbus to be seen. Very poor editing for such a high caliber organization, more like The Sun or The Mirror in this case.
 
Ken777
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:17 am

Far from a blast by Boeing. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a policy at Boeing not to try and cut Airbus off at the knees. There is really no need for that.

The article did bring up the first information I have seen about Boeing talking to airlines about there needs for the 737/320 replacement. Throw that in with 2012 being the first date for EIS and it appears that Y1 is moving right along. If so, then I expect an announcement (and some very nice orders) as soon as the 787 is flying, with 4 years to EIS.

That type of timing is going to put a hurt on Airbus as they will probably be focused on the 370 big time. I wonder if the board is contemplating a full 320 replacement, starting in 2008, when they make their decision on the 370. Could they decide to stay with the 350 and focus on the 320 replacement as their major development program?
 
airfrnt
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:22 am

More of this is actually from the CMO, rather then from any quotes from the Boeing executives. I highly recommend that anyone interested in the airline industry read this and Airbus's equivalent. In particular I really recommend reading pages 21-33 for a good overview of the actual statistics on airliner growth around the world.

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
Airbus also project that the core long range market is for mid size airplanes.

Both Airbus and Boeing are projecting tat the widebody market will be the largest market by revenue (easily) over the next 20 years. However, Airbus is projecting a 20% growth in average plane size (which is a complete departure from every trend line in every market since 1985) while Boeing is projecting that the seatsize will stay the same, or slightly decrease.

If you believe the seat size is going up, then you can project 1,200 VLA orders A380. Boeing believes that the statistical trend towards decreasing seat size will continue and are focusing on the 737 and the 787 instead.

One of the points that Boeing makes very convincingly from the CMO is that the same fragmentation that started in 1985 with the 757/767 over the Atlantic is occurring over the pacific now. That fragmentation is the primary driver of the 777 sales, as well as a future driver for 787 sales.

Quoting Aither (Reply 8):
What can be criticized however is that the A380 took 10 years to be developped.

I'm actually not sure this is a bad thing. Can you imagine what would have happened if Airbus tried to commercially launch the 380 during 9/11 and SARS fall out?
 
longhaulheavy
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a policy at Boeing not to try and cut Airbus off at the knees. There is really no need for that.

If Boeing looks predatory, they increase their political problems. By being reasonable in their public statements, as they have been doing, they can let Airbus wallow in their own problems without getting any blowback. If Airbus is having problems on its own, there's no reason to get involved.
 
Aither
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
However, Airbus is projecting a 20% growth in average plane size

That's a Boeing claim about Airbus forecast.

There are many ways to calculate averages.
You can look at individual airplane sizes, or make your calculations on seats kilometers offered, take into account or not the regional jet market, which you can define as less than 50 seats or less than 100 seats or based on aircraft type, etc.


Overall world averages are completely irrelevant because they cover so diverse things.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 12):
One of the points that Boeing makes very convincingly from the CMO is that the same fragmentation that started in 1985 with the 757/767 over the Atlantic is occurring over the pacific now. That fragmentation is the primary driver of the 777 sales, as well as a future driver for 787 sales.

As far as i know transatlantic routes like PAR-NYC, PAR-YMQ, LON-NYC, etc. are much bigger than they were in 1985... despite the increased in the number of new routes. This has more to do with growth rather than fragmentation.
In addition, because of the range, there will be less growth through frequencies and more by an increase in capacity. I know the japanese carriers did not follow this pattern but hey... these carriers are almost bankrupt !

[Edited 2006-07-14 00:11:29]
Never trust the obvious
 
airfrnt
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 14):
As far as i know transatlantic routes like PAR-NYC, PAR-YMQ, LON-NYC, etc. are much bigger than they were in 1985... despite the increased in the number of new routes. This has more to do with growth rather than fragmentation.
In addition, because of the range, there will be less growth through frequencies and more by an increase in capacity. I know the japanese carriers did not follow this pattern but hey... these carriers are almost bankrupt !

Did you look at the CMO? There is a pretty convincing set of numbers that indicate that all of the growth is coming in smaller aircraft, not larger ones.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Longhaulheavy (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a policy at Boeing not to try and cut Airbus off at the knees. There is really no need for that.

Kind of like it was in Microsoft's interest to keep Apple in the game even supporting them to a degree by making a Mac version of Office.
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RAPCON
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
"A fresh proposal for an all-new aircraft family to counter Boeing's 787 and 777 ranges, which could cost up to $10bn to develop, is due to be considered by the board of EADS, the Airbus parent company, tomorrow and could be announced at next week's Farnborough airshow."

2 Questions:

(1) Where is the $10B going to come from? Those "sweetheart" loans that they usually get from the governemnts?

(2) What if the EADS Board chooses to either shoot down the revamped A350 program all together, or futher delay it? What then?  airplane 
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ikramerica
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:06 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 9):
I think most of the content can be found here:

You are right. reading that, you can see some very critical talk about Airbus's view of the market, but it's really meant to highlight why Boeing's product strategy makes more sense, which is what a sales team has to do.

I do think the A380 fuel burn claimed v. actual is a bit much though. Boeing does not know the in service fuel burn of the A380, but are claiming the same 3.2 L per pax that some people say LH has claimed. Either this is a real number, of the rumor is growing...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Aither
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RE: Article - Boeing Lambasts Airbus's Product Strategy

Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:34 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Did you look at the CMO? There is a pretty convincing set of numbers that indicate that all of the growth is coming in smaller aircraft, not larger ones.

I did. These documents from the manufacturer and not from the journalists are always worth reading. But you know this document is aimed at convincing people, you can show - or don't show - what you want with numbers.

As i said before i'm not a fan of world averages and statements like "it will happen here like it happened there". I think they are poor and meaningless. But it is still interesting. It's good to read also the other guys document to make his own judgment.

[Edited 2006-07-14 12:35:29]
Never trust the obvious

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