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SLCUT2777
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Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:00 am

DL currently offers one direct SLC-MIA flight per day, with numerous others via connections through ATL, CVG and IAH (via CO codeshare). AA offers a combination of 7 flights per day to their hubs at ORD and DFW with connections to Miami. Isn't Miami a significant enough hub to AA that they would want to compete with DL on this route for direct service?  Confused
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gigneil
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:04 am

SLC doesn't really offer much in the way of O/D, unfortunately. DL's service to MIA is bolstered by its connecting power.

N
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
DL currently offers one direct SLC-MIA flight per day, with numerous others via connections through ATL, CVG and IAH (via CO codeshare). AA offers a combination of 7 flights per day to their hubs at ORD and DFW with connections to Miami. Isn't Miami a significant enough hub to AA that they would want to compete with DL on this route for direct service?

Obviously SLC is not a significant enough destination for AA from MIA since AA does not serve it non-stop. I doubt that the O&D traffic SLC-MIA is that significant, and the connecting Mormon for international religious work is very low yielding (as it should be since the money is better spent on the charitable work, this is not a slam at the LDS but a statement of market conditions that deter AA from instituting NS MIA-SLC service).
 
MastaHanky
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:13 am

FareMeasure.com reports the O&D between SLC and MIA is only 58 passengers per day. Unfortunately, the DL route is being dropped this fall...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 1):
SLC doesn't really offer much in the way of O/D, unfortunately. DL's service to MIA is bolstered by its connecting power.

The last I checked, SLC was ranked around #29-32 in O&D traffic for US airports which makes it borderline for some routes. But its ranking puts it surprisingly ahead of others like PIT and CLT. While DL's connectivity through ATL is no doubt an inhibitor, I would think that AA could come in and offer a better time slot once per day, and cut the price and then perhaps go with two during peak season for cruise ship vacations (Nov-Apr).  idea 
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gigneil
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:18 am

I am not sure, but I don't even think AA serves the top 25 markets in the US from MIA.

N
 
TripleP
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:26 am

Well, what about Austin and San Antonio to Miami on American? Salt Lake is not alone in it's desires for this routing to south FLorida on AA.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:27 am

AA would begin service from MIA to SEA, PHX and SAN before SLC. Unless there is a drastic change in the demographics between Utah and South Florida, I would imagine it will be some time before AA will offer this flight.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:30 am

My bet is that the role of MIA in AA's network as a hub is less important as the role of SLC in DL's network as a hub (DL's main hub in the West, very conveniently located at the centre of the western half of the US), whereas MIA is very unconvenient in terms of location for domestic US traffic, coming from SLC, one has to backtrack to go virtually anywhere, and AA can offer much more convenient connections through DFW or ORD for this precise reason.

Obviously AA and MIA are leading in terms of connections to Latin Am/Carribean but 1. how big is this market from SLC and 2. DFW is not so bad either.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 3):
FareMeasure.com reports the O&D between SLC and MIA is only 58 passengers per day. Unfortunately, the DL route is being dropped this fall...

More reason for AA to come in and steal what market there is and what can be built-up, especially with the onset of cruise ship season.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 2):
and the connecting Mormon for international religious work is very low yielding (as it should be since the money is better spent on the charitable work, this is not a slam at the LDS but a statement of market conditions that deter AA from instituting NS MIA-SLC service).

Actually the LDS Church does a tremendous amount of charitable (welfare service is what they call it) work in the Caribbean and Central America not to mention South America, but DL has those routes pretty well covered through ATL. Not everything for O&D traffic out of SLC wears a white shirt and tie and a badge officially explaining they a representatives of the LDS Church. Take a look at some of the reputable travel guides on line and you'll find there is much more to SLC than just the Mormon Church and there really is a night life (even though finding a place that serves alcohol can be a challenge at times, due to the strictest liquor control laws in the USA).
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BigGSFO
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):
Actually the LDS Church does a tremendous amount of charitable (welfare service is what they call it) work in the Caribbean and Central America not to mention South America, but DL has those routes pretty well covered through ATL. Not everything for O&D traffic out of SLC wears a white shirt and tie and a badge officially explaining they a representatives of the LDS Church. Take a look at some of the reputable travel guides on line and you'll find there is much more to SLC than just the Mormon Church and there really is a night life (even though finding a place that serves alcohol can be a challenge at times, due to the strictest liquor control laws in the USA).

Agreed, but the bottom line is the bottom line: are there enough passengers to fill a 738 (most likely) daily with the right mix of yield to make it work? Probably not.
 
MastaHanky
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 10):
Agreed, but the bottom line is the bottom line: are there enough passengers to fill a 738 (most likely) daily with the right mix of yield to make it work? Probably not.

Have to agree....even if Delta pulls every single one of the daily O&D passengers from SLC to MIA, you've only filled a third of the plane. I believe SLC is around 45% O&D for DL.

This would be a good route for a 90-100 seater if DL had one with that range.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:53 am

I have been to SLC and have been to the bars. SLC is an OK place in my book. I am well aware of the demographics of SLC. The LDS Church does a lot of good work.

My point was that:

1. There is simply not much O&D traffic between SLC and MIA as shown by MastaHanky in reply #3 (58 pax per day).

2. A majority of connecting pax for AA on the SLC-MIA route would have to be connecting, and the only reasonable connections would be international. These connecting international pax would most likely be on LDS missions and therefore low yield.

If the numbers were there, you can bet that AA would be all over this route.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:14 am

Most of those international connections can be made through DFW, at least the most popular ones.

Hypothetically, it could be remotely possible to see like a seasonal-Saturday only 738 on MIA-SLC in the winter, to cater to the ski traffic, similar to the MIA-EGE flight, but Floridians/Latin/South Americans flock to Vail, and not that much to Utah.

Again, as others have said, AA offers very limited flights to the West Coast from MIA, as much of this traffic can easily be routed through DFW.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:47 am

O&D in the market is actually 229 daily pax, with most coming from FLL, which has non-stops.

It is not a yield issue. Average one-way fare is $240. That is very high.

The market is not that important for Delta to serve. If AA expands west coast Miami ops past SFO/LAX/LAS/DEN/EGE, they will do SAN/SEA/PHX before SLC. Unfortunately, AA feels that MIA only needs more non-stops to LAX (they are adding a 7th daily this winter) rather than expanding their West Coast destinations from the city. Also, South Floridians love to ski, but they all flock to Colorado, and AA has them covered with non-stops to Denver and Vail.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 8):
My bet is that the role of MIA in AA's network as a hub is less important as the role of SLC in DL's network as a hub (DL's main hub in the West, very conveniently located at the centre of the western half of the US),

Domesticlly, yes. Overall? No. AA's MIA hub is home to their pride and joy: their Latin American network.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 5):
I am not sure, but I don't even think AA serves the top 25 markets in the US from MIA.

They serve all but three - Phoenix, San Diego, and Portland. Seattle is served on an AS codeshare.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 7):
AA would begin service from MIA to SEA, PHX and SAN before SLC.

That would be the first wave they would look at followed by SLC, PDX & SAC. I think perhaps the biggest reason is AA just isn't that big on the west coast or better said the Pacific and Mountain Time Zones. They do seam to fill their "Mad-Dogs" to both DFW and ORD each day form here in SLC though.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
Again, as others have said, AA offers very limited flights to the West Coast from MIA, as much of this traffic can easily be routed through DFW.

DFW is to AA what ATL is to DL.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
O&D in the market is actually 229 daily pax, with most coming from FLL, which has non-stops.

For South Florida to SLC and the west coast, FAA-SLC on DL does quite well with the 738 per day they use, and people from Broward and Palm Beach Counties don't have to then venture into Dade County and the mess/maze that surrounds MIA.
I will almost speculate (tell me if this is from puffing the crack pipe! LOL!) that we would see DL add a single flight to SLC to/from PBI before we see MIA on the radar scope.
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MAH4546
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
I will almost speculate (tell me if this is from puffing the crack pipe! LOL!) that we would see DL add a single flight to SLC to/from PBI before we see MIA on the radar scope.

It is, in your own words, "putting on the crack pipe". PBI is the least served airport in the region and extremely seasonal. It's older population base also cares mostly about going to the Northeast. PBI-SLC? Not happening anytime soon.

In fact, I'd be willing to bet that DL's cutting of MIA-SLC and BDL-SLC from the fall schedule may not be permanent.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
and people from Broward and Palm Beach Counties don't have to then venture into Dade County and the mess/maze that surrounds MIA.

It works both ways. To many people in Miami-Dade, FLL is the mess and maze.
a.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Unfortunately, AA feels that MIA only needs more non-stops to LAX (they are adding a 7th daily this winter) rather than expanding their West Coast destinations from the city.

Agreed. SFO desperately needs that 4th flight and there are opportunites outside of LAX. I know it's off topic, but would SNA-MIA work?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 18):
I know it's off topic, but would SNA-MIA work?

The market is there for such a flight especially during the peak of cruise ship season (Nov-Apr). The big issue with SNA is the length of the runways and the noise abatement proceedures departures must follow to get out of there without upsetting all of the Orange County NIMBY's. This would put limitations on what equipment AA could use and eliminate the "Mad-Dogs" almost entirely (DL does use the MD-90 from SLC though). SNA can't take wide-bodies due to the short runways and NIMBY's, so that really only leaves ONT as the only other LA area airport asside from LAX that could take an a/c that could do such a trans-con.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 18):

Agreed. SFO desperately needs that 4th flight and there are opportunites outside of LAX. I know it's off topic, but would SNA-MIA work?

AA has looked at it flying it in the recent past, but nothing past that. AA has a good FF base at SNA.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 19):
The market is there for such a flight especially during the peak of cruise ship season (Nov-Apr). The big issue with SNA is the length of the runways and the noise abatement proceedures departures must follow to get out of there without upsetting all of the Orange County NIMBY's. This would put limitations on what equipment AA could use and eliminate the "Mad-Dogs" almost entirely (DL does use the MD-90 from SLC though). SNA can't take wide-bodies due to the short runways and NIMBY's, so that really only leaves ONT as the only other LA area airport asside from LAX that could take an a/c that could do such a trans-con.

A 738 can do MIA-SNA.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:29 am

there is no need for a slc-mia non stop on AA for two reasons

1. DFW is not out of the way at all from SLC to MIA no reason for a non-stop you can simply connect and loose little time and have more choices

2.aa has a lot of great connections to latin america via dfw and the eastern USA so no reason to offer service to mia and its so far south not a good place to connect to anywhere in the us anyway

these are the same reasons why aa dosnt offer service to phx, san, sna etc etc etc to mia either theres no point dfw is on the way and offers better connections with less backtracking plus why battle delta anyway they are digging their claws in on slc and they still offer service non stop to fll and a million and a half great connection oportunities at all times of the day
 
rwsea
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Seattle is served on an AS codeshare.

True, but only 1x daily. They could use a later departure from MIA to allow more connection opportunities.

As far as SLC, the only add that MIA would offer would be connections to Latin America. DL serves most of these destinations from ATL though, so MIA wouldn't really open up that many more opportunities. FLL seems to serve the O&D traffic fine for now.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 20):
A 738 can do MIA-SNA.

How many 737-800s does AA have in their fleet? You're right that it could do SNA-MIA, but getting out of there on that short runway with the noise abatement required at SNA has to be pretty tricky, especially if the a/c is fully laden.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:37 am

AA has 77 737-800's in the fleet. It would have no problem flying SNA-MIA at all, considering that AQ gets their 73G's to HNL out of SNA.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
AA has 77 737-800's in the fleet. It would have no problem flying SNA-MIA at all, considering that AQ gets their 73G's to HNL out of SNA.

With 77 738s, it really then all depends on what fish AA wants to fry. The 738 could make it out of SNA and meet the hideously stupid noise abatement's, but does AA need these elsewhere and have the same issue of not enough of one airframe as DL has run into?
If AA/Eagle ever went with E-170/175s or even E-190/195s, then a SLC-MIA route would likely work for them right out of the gate, IF they had enough of these a/c to set up such a route.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 21):
2.aa has a lot of great connections to latin america via dfw and the eastern USA so no reason to offer service to mia and its so far south not a good place to connect to anywhere in the us anyway

AA serves a grand total of four South American cities from Dallas. Four.

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 21):
these are the same reasons why aa dosnt offer service to phx, san, sna etc etc etc to mia either theres no point dfw is on the way and offers better connections with less backtracking

There is no significant time savings and no "back tracking" If you fly AA on LAX-EZE, stopping in DFW or MIA doesn't matter, it takes fifteen hours. The time saved on LAX-DFW (two hours quicker than LAX-MIA) is lost on DFW-EZE (two hours slower than MIA-EZE).

A west coast expansion of AA's MIA services has been on their wait list for a long time. They want to add markets such as San Diego, Vancouver, Seattle (past the AS codeshare), and Phoenix (which will probably come sooner than later). However, they also are not "new route happy" and are in a very slow paced expansion mood. It will happen soon enough, just not right now. AA has big plans in store for expanding their domestic route network out of MIA in the next 5-7 years. They have already done a great job, adding over a dozen new domestic cities in the past two years.

And people are forgetting that AA's Latin American MIA operations are heavily reliant on two things: O&D (which is 55% of AA's MIA internationalt traffic) and connections from a small handful of key markets (namely NYC, Boston, DC, LA, San Fran, Chicago, Tampa, and Orlando). A large amount of connections AA makes in MIA are to the Caribbean, not Latin America.
a.
 
thering
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 3):
O&D between SLC and MIA is only 58 passengers per day.

Making good publicity they could fill at least 80% of a MD-83 on the route daily.
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
j.mo
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:57 am

Just a quick note on AA in SLC. I believe this month or next, AA will contract out their ramp handling at SLC.

J.mo
 
kanebear
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
O&D in the market is actually 229 daily pax, with most coming from FLL, which has non-stops.

It is not a yield issue. Average one-way fare is $240. That is very high.

The market is not that important for Delta to serve. If AA expands west coast Miami ops past SFO/LAX/LAS/DEN/EGE, they will do SAN/SEA/PHX before SLC. Unfortunately, AA feels that MIA only needs more non-stops to LAX (they are adding a 7th daily this winter) rather than expanding their West Coast destinations from the city. Also, South Floridians love to ski, but they all flock to Colorado, and AA has them covered with non-stops to Denver and Vail.

$240 one way is high?? Or are you being sarcastic?

Non-stop service simply isn't that much of a hot-button as long as the connecting hub is not out of the way. Also, the connecting service allows AA to maintain more frequency on DFW-SLC/ORD-SLC vs. dropping frequency and offering more destinations. I'd rather have 8 flights a day to DFW vs. 2 to ORD, 2 to DFW and 2 to MIA.
 
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N62NA
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Thering (Reply 27):
Making good publicity they could fill at least 80% of a MD-83 on the route daily.

Good idea. Except that the AA MD80s has been banished from MIA.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why No AA SLC-MIA?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 29):
$240 one way is high?? Or are you being sarcastic?

Unfortunately, in today's market, $240 is pretty high. That number includes connecting passengers and non-stop passengers, so the non-stop fares are higher.
a.

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