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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:02 pm

Quoting ZKNEA (Reply 49):
While I share your dislike of Mr Treneary, just to clarify the IFE was not operating at any time, and mobile phones were asked to be turned off most the time, although I doubt they were - something to do with the air force of something maybe I don't know.

Well thats SQ being silly then...
Hmm as for the cellphone thing... I guess perhaps the airforce didn't want people taking pictures with their cellphones.... cellphone usage for calls shouldn't interfere with anything on the ground.
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flyingKangaroo
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 45):
He says there was not enough food



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 45):

He says it is unacceptable that the airline did not provide enough food, entertainment, or air conditioning to cater for such situations.



Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 48):
he food is an issue however, perhaps SQ and others should have organised the caterers for PMR (30mins away) to load up some meals and bring them over (plenty of time for that).

While I agree that SQ could of arranged something, it isn't necessarily their responsibility to do so. They didn't know how long they would be on the ground, so ordering meals could of been a waste of money if the aircraft was gone before they were delivered. And this Mr. Treneary..I'm sure he thinks that SQ just has an endless supply of food onboard. The airline can't control the weather, and can't load enough meals to feed everyone on the off chance that they'll divert and sit on the ground for hours.

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Pieinthesky
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 50):
Hmm as for the cellphone thing... I guess perhaps the airforce didn't want people taking pictures with their cellphones....

I don't see why not, there's not exactly an Air Force as such to take any pictures of is there.
 
NZ8800
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Pieinthesky (Reply 52):
I don't see why not, there's not exactly an Air Force as such to take any pictures of is there.

As stated above, air forces here and in other parts of the globe do have other tasks than firing missiles at people.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:21 am

yeh but as Baden Powells motto said "Be prepared"
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ABQopsHP
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:19 am

I agree with flyingKangaroo. And as an airline employee I can tell you its true, regarding the catering. Financially the airlines are in no position to be catering a flight for this type of eventuality. This Mr Trenary is just one of those out there that likes to complain, to hear his own voice. Do you think the flight attendants were enjoying this any more than the pax?
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 48):
perhaps SQ and others should have organised the caterers for PMR (30mins away) to load up some meals and bring them over (plenty of time for that).

Would whoever the caterer is at PMR even have enough spare food on hand to feed 400 pax on a 747? Let alone 5 widebodies? That's a lot of mouths to feed at short notice.

(Excuse my ignorance, which airlines actually serve proper meals for flights departing PMR anyway?)

But why not have the NZ Air Force ppl whip up some military provisions for the pax?  Wink
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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 56):
Would whoever the caterer is at PMR even have enough spare food on hand to feed 400 pax on a 747? Let alone 5 widebodies? That's a lot of mouths to feed at short notice.

(Excuse my ignorance, which airlines actually serve proper meals for flights departing PMR anyway?)

But why not have the NZ Air Force ppl whip up some military provisions for the pax?

Well PMR is a city with plenty of food places around. As for the caterers, the point I was making is that they have the ability to load up food carts for those aircraft (since there is standard size carts for aircraft)... Even if all they organised was sandwiches that would be better than nothing. If a plane diverted to OHA, then it would be on the ground for at least an hour (time to refuel etc), and since it was fog, well it doesn't just disappear like that... so they would have known that they would be there for at least 2 hours... not that hard to russel up some sandwiches  Smile
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ZKSUJ
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:42 pm

Ok, did the other airlines provide food for their PAX? Because at the moment it sounds like its only SQ.

If all pax on all aircraft didnt get food, then I'd be more sympathetic for those onboard NZ1, who should have been at Ohakea a good few hours more than the other a/c.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting NZ8800 (Reply 35):
PMR: PCN 35 F/C/X/U 1900m - to be extended to 2500m as above
Unless they raise the PCN as well as extending the runway, a 747 will not be able to land there.

On top of that, If a 744 was to land at PMR, it would not be able to taxi off. Both taxiway 1 and taxiway 2 are not where near wide enough to handle such an a/c

It would also have a bit of trouble backtracking and turning as well as there is no turning bays at the ends of the runway.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 22):
Really, the sooner Auckland gets Cat III ILS, the better - these fog closures seem to be an almost weekly occurance during winter, some (like today's) worse than others...

More than daily - try the third time in 5 days....practically all my early shifts that week has problems with inbound aircraft due to fog... It's disgraceful, and the AIAL is a year and a half away from being a decade behind any decent airport around the world.

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 58):
Ok, did the other airlines provide food for their PAX? Because at the moment it sounds like its only SQ.

None of the flights were expecting to have passengers onboard them for 24 hours, so were not accordingly catered
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 57):
not that hard to russel up some sandwiches

I'm looking at catering from a logistical standpoint, in a place where SQ doesn't fly to and where there isn't the large scale aviation caterer, certainly none SQ would have dealt with.

Where could you go to rustle up 300 sandwiches at short notice and have them delivered? Who would have the manpower and supplies to do that within, say, 60 minutes of being called? And be able to deliver it? Who would they know who to call to start with? How would the caterer get paid for that? Would SQ get a bank guarantee so the caterer gets paid (doubt they have credit card facilities)?

Then again they could've called for pizzas ... I'm sure they could've gotten it all there quickly. But then you'll still have pax whinging because their vegan / Halal diet wasn't catered for ...  Wink

And when you feed them but they're still stuck on the ground for hours, they'll still be unhappy. Unhappy pax will complain no matter what, the lack of food just gives them one bit of ammunition. If you take that away they'll just whinge about something else, like the fact they've seen the same IFE loop for the 5th time. (btw I'm posting this instead of responding to a customer complaint ...)

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 58):
did the other airlines provide food for their PAX? Because at the moment it sounds like its only SQ.

I was curious about this too. Maybe the other aircraft had leftover food on board? Sounds unlikely though.
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Pulkovokiwi
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:39 pm

Have to say it would be the most exciting thing to have happened in the Palmy area since John Cleese visited.
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Pieinthesky
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:56 pm

Quoting NZ8800 (Reply 53):
As stated above, air forces here and in other parts of the globe do have other tasks than firing missiles at people.

NZ maybe, I can't think of many other comparable developed countries who don't have at least some form of armed wing.

Still, I suppose you've always got the All Blacks if anyone does decide to try anything untoward.  Wink
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Pieinthesky (Reply 63):
NZ maybe, I can't think of many other comparable developed countries who don't have at least some form of armed wing.

New Zealand still should, but Ireland is a comparable country for an example.

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 61):
I'm looking at catering from a logistical standpoint, in a place where SQ doesn't fly to and where there isn't the large scale aviation caterer, certainly none SQ would have dealt with.

Where could you go to rustle up 300 sandwiches at short notice and have them delivered? Who would have the manpower and supplies to do that within, say, 60 minutes of being called? And be able to deliver it? Who would they know who to call to start with? How would the caterer get paid for that? Would SQ get a bank guarantee so the caterer gets paid (doubt they have credit card facilities)?

Then again they could've called for pizzas ... I'm sure they could've gotten it all there quickly. But then you'll still have pax whinging because their vegan / Halal diet wasn't catered for ...

And when you feed them but they're still stuck on the ground for hours, they'll still be unhappy. Unhappy pax will complain no matter what, the lack of food just gives them one bit of ammunition. If you take that away they'll just whinge about something else, like the fact they've seen the same IFE loop for the 5th time. (btw I'm posting this instead of responding to a customer complaint ...)

Company cheque (SQ is pretty reputable I'm sure there wouldn't be a problem, besides the SQ office in AKL I'm sure could sort that out with whoever at Palmerston North). If not that then Direct Credit. There are plenty of restaurants, cafe's, bakeries, caterers etc in Palmerston North, should not be a problem... as someone else suggested, even pizza or burgers might suffice for most pax... with a large number of muslim students living in Palmerston I'm sure there are several places that do Halal food.
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Revelation
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:05 pm

One basic question: did the AF base even have air stairs tall enough to reach the 747's door? This has been a problem at other unprepared sites in the past.

Given it was physically possible to access the plane, and given that the AF did not object, I too feel the airlines should have done something to feed the pax after the first or second hour on the ground, even if it were just snack items, MREs, pizzas, etc. Of course this would have worstened the problem with the toilets getting clogged, sigh.
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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:34 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 65):
One basic question: did the AF base even have air stairs tall enough to reach the 747's door? This has been a problem at other unprepared sites in the past.

They have air stairs tall enough for 757 (which the RNZAF has 2 of) which isn't much different from 777 or 747 so I don't see a problem...
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sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 40):
Just on one news - AKL will get lights for landing in fog in 15 months time, won't be operational until 2008.


So what does this mean in practical terms of decision height and runway visual range?
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 67):


So what does this mean in practical terms of decision height and runway visual range?

thats the media. What they will be getting is a cat III ILS. Which means:
There are three categories of ILS which support similarly named categories of operation.

Category I - A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height not lower than 60 m (200 ft) and with either a visibility not less than 800 m or a runway visual range not less than 550 m.
Category II - Category II operation: A precision instrument approach and landing with a decision height lower than 60 m (200 ft) but not lower than 30 m (100 ft), and a runway visual range not less than 350 m.
Category III is further subdivided
Category III A - A precision instrument approach and landing with: a) a decision height lower than 30 m (100 ft), or no decision height; and b) a runway visual range not less than 200 m.
Category III B - A precision instrument approach and landing with: a) a decision height lower than 15 m (50 ft), or no decision height; and b) a runway visual range less than 200 m but not less than 50 m.
Category III C - A precision instrument approach and landing with no decision height and no runway visual range limitations.
In each case a suitably equipped aircraft and appropriately qualified crew are required.

(Reference ICAO Annex 10 AERONAUTICAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS Volume 1 RADIO NAVIGATION AIDS 2.1.1)
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sunrisevalley
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 68):
What they will be getting is a cat III ILS.

So to which sub-category? WLG has serious needs also, how far away is RNP and how close , vertically and horizontally, can it bring an aircraft to the runway threshold? Is it economical to equip all the aircraft that fly into WLG for RPN?
 
NZ8800
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:25 pm

Are any aircraft able to be so equipped to Cat 1/2/3 etc, or is it limited to certain types?

And how does it actually work?
If a SAAB 340 for example, is doing an Instrument approach via Whitford rather than visual via Weymouth (from a trip last year to Auckland) - are they doing a VOR radial, or NDB reference, or a Cat I ILS, or combination?

(As it happened in our case, we got down via Weymouth through a very narrow gap in the clouds, saving us another 20 minutes of bouncing about, but I did wonder what the SAAB was actually equipped for).
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Zkpilot
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 69):
So to which sub-category? WLG has serious needs also, how far away is RNP and how close , vertically and horizontally, can it bring an aircraft to the runway threshold? Is it economical to equip all the aircraft that fly into WLG for RPN?

hmm not sure about WLG... I recall hearing that it might be a at most a 50% improvement on minimas due terrain.

Quoting NZ8800 (Reply 70):
Are any aircraft able to be so equipped to Cat 1/2/3 etc, or is it limited to certain types?

And how does it actually work?
If a SAAB 340 for example, is doing an Instrument approach via Whitford rather than visual via Weymouth (from a trip last year to Auckland) - are they doing a VOR radial, or NDB reference, or a Cat I ILS, or combination?

(As it happened in our case, we got down via Weymouth through a very narrow gap in the clouds, saving us another 20 minutes of bouncing about, but I did wonder what the SAAB was actually equipped for).

An aircraft has to be equiped and crew trained in CAT I/II/III approaches before they can be done. Most modern Jet Aircraft are capable of doing this (especially the likes of 777, 747 etc). It basically is an ILS approach as per normal on autopilot except the minimums become less the higher the Cat. The ultimate being a Cat III c approach where the plane lands itself (autoflare) and maintains centerline whilst above Vmcg (minimum control speed ground). Of course the crew still need to operate the flaps, gear etc etc but is mostly automated.

Pretty much all aircraft operated commercially are able to fly an ILS approach (just not the higher standard approaches).
NZ8800 in your example from whitford it could be either, but most likely they were either being vectored onto the ILS/DME approach or onto the VOR/DME approach. The difference being the decision altitude, so where possible the ILS approach is chosen.  Smile
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Mr.BA
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RE: SQ Diverted To Rnzaf Ohakea - Common Occurance?

Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:23 am

But really if there isn't any facilities at the airfield it's not the airlines fault isn't it? SQ's not the only one that is stuck there anyway...
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