leelaw
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Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:59 pm

From James Wallace/Seattle PI:

Airbus says its new A350 will be superior to the Dreamliner and Boeing's 777. But Boeing questions how Airbus can take on two planes of much different sizes with one basic design (Fair Use Excerpt):

"...It will be a step ahead of the 787 and leap ahead of the 777," Airbus commercial boss John Leahy, the bulldog jetliner sales chief, told a packed news conference on the opening day of the Farnborough International Airshow.

A Boeing executive later questioned how Airbus will take on two planes of much different sizes -- the 777 and 787 -- with just one basic design.

"It doesn't make any sense," said Randy Baseler, Boeing's marketing vice president...


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/277877_airshow18.html

The war of Leahy spin, and Baseler counter-spin has been engaged.
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Johnny
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:12 pm

BLA BLA BLA...

Typical senseless talking from Basler...

Is he probably the cousin or brother of Mr. Leahy..?

 Wink
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
The war of Leahy spin, and Baseler counter-spin has been engaged.

Well, it's hardly unexpected. I mean, these people are employed to sell their respective companies' products. As with anyone who is trying to sell you something, you should take a grain of salt with everything they say. There'd be something wrong if they weren't trying to talk up their product, and talk down the competition...

V/F
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jacobin777
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:20 pm

I like this part..

"Leahy said the market wants bigger planes, and Boeing made a mistake by sizing the 787 too small.

But Boeing's Baseler pointed out that the bulk of Boeing's 360 firm orders for the 787 are for the 787-8.

"We made a mistake? We listened to our customers," he said.

Boeing has sold about 300 787-8s so far. "Yeah, we really missed it," Baseler said."

Made me chuckle....
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Johnny
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:46 pm

Yes, the -8 is successful, the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales and the biggest sellers will be the -9 and -10X to reduce the seatmile-costs.



 Smile
 
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:01 pm

The main factor here would probably be that airlines order the 787-800 as it will be arriving first to the market.

Later the 787-900/1000 will take the bulk of sales, such as the 767-300 did for the 767 range.
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CWFan
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:11 pm

Maybe this is an inappropriate place to post this, but can someone please tell me how the 350 is going to be a "step ahead" of the 787? the 787 is brand new -- what exactly is A putting in the 350 to step it ahead? (It's got to be something that can make up for the fact that the 350 isn't using a composite fuse, if, that is, you believe a composite fuse is an improvement.)
 
Aviator27
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:19 pm

Airbus made the mistake of writing off the B787 and look at the price they paid. Looks as if Boeing is heading in the same direction making the same mistake by writing off the A350XWB. Boeing has an awesome airplane in the B787. Airbus has another awesome airplane in the A350XWB.
 
nirvarma
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
BLA BLA BLA...

Typical senseless talking from Basler...

And i suppose what Leahy said is absolutely correct?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
Yes, the -8 is successful, the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales and the biggest sellers will be the -9 and -10X to reduce the seatmile-costs.

Are you sure you're not Leahy's cousin?
 
Johnny
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:34 pm

@ Nirvarma "And i suppose what Leahy said is absolutely correct?"

What do you think why i asked if Basler is the cousin or brother or Leahy? Because i trust in Leahys statements?!? NO!

Read my posts better next time - Thanks!

And the number of expected sales for the -8,-3,-9 and -10x are well accepted within the whole industrie, theey are not coming from me!
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:35 pm

May I suggest to wait until October? That's when Airbus is to decide whether to actually launch the A350XWB or not.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:43 pm

I think if Baseler would publically, especially at Farnborough, would state that the 350 is superior to his own products, he would probably not even get his return flight to Chicago paid for... Why do some people keep quoting Boeing people to discredit Airbus, and why do people believe Airbus when they bash Boeing?

We got enough bashing on here, let those overpaid folks talk all they want, it's not worth posting here...
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Ruscoe
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales

Now thatairbus has shown it's hand and is not entering that part of the market, 767,A300,& A310 replacement will go to Boeing.

Ruscoe
 
Johnny
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm

No, in my opinon, that market does not exist any longer.

The shorthaul-market is becoming more and more a narrowbody-market with higher frequencies.


 Smile
 
jacobin777
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 7):
Airbus made the mistake of writing off the B787 and look at the price they paid. Looks as if Boeing is heading in the same direction making the same mistake by writing off the A350XWB. Boeing has an awesome airplane in the B787. Airbus has another awesome airplane in the A350XWB.

Actually, the philosophy and approach of the new Boeing sales team is showing something different..plus recent comments from Boeing management (including the Chairman) shows they are doing anything but sitting around and becoming complacent.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
DavidT
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:58 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 7):
Airbus has another awesome airplane in the A350XWB.

How do we know this? At the moment all we've had is a mainly PR based presentation and a few renderings. I'm still skeptical as to how the A350X can thrash the 787 and 777 so much when we're yet to see evidence on any large technological steps made. Will the fuselage be incredibly light? Will the engines be insanely efficient?

If Airbus can pull it off then it'd be a great step for the aviation industry as a whole - leaps by A affect B's future products and vice versa and can only be good for passengers. However all we've heard so far are bold and brash 'me too' statements - and I'm yet to be convinced.
 
airtran737
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:12 pm

By developing a bigger A350, Baseler said, Airbus is essentially conceding the 200- to 250-seat market to Boeing. That market will need about 1,500 planes to replace aging 767s, A300s and A310s, he said.

I think that this is a huge point. There are a lot of 767-200's and Airbus A300 and A310's that are going to need to be replaced in the future and now Airbus has completely removed themselves from this sector of the market. Why would they do this? There ius a lot of money to be made replacing those fleets and they are just handing them to Boeing. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% pro Boeing, this move by Airbus doesn't make sense to me.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting CWFan (Reply 6):
Maybe this is an inappropriate place to post this, but can someone please tell me how the 350 is going to be a "step ahead" of the 787? the 787 is brand new -- what exactly is A putting in the 350 to step it ahead? (It's got to be something that can make up for the fact that the 350 isn't using a composite fuse, if, that is, you believe a composite fuse is an improvement.)

I found your question wholly appropriate. How is it so much better? I have seen nothing which convinces me of it's "improvement" over the 787.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 10):
May I suggest to wait until October? That's when Airbus is to decide whether to actually launch the A350XWB or not.

True, but it will launch. It may look like a different airplane by then (to some degree).

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 16):
By developing a bigger A350, Baseler said, Airbus is essentially conceding the 200- to 250-seat market to Boeing. That market will need about 1,500 planes to replace aging 767s, A300s and A310s, he said

I agree with this. They missed an opportunity. And Randy is right...Boeing got it right, and the order book says so. And what is Airbus going to do about the gap between the 350-1000 and the A-380? With the 747I firming up it's design this November, this is potentially another missed market segment for Airbus.
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birdbrainz
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:19 pm

I remember Air Canada's comment about the sizing of the 787 (from an Aviation Week article that came out right after the initial order):

"Boeing hit the nail on the head with the sizing of the 787."

Of course, it won't be perfect for everyone, but there's definitely a big market for such a plane.
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NAV20
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting CWFan (Reply 6):
what exactly is A putting in the 350 to step it ahead? (It's got to be something that can make up for the fact that the 350 isn't using a composite fuse

Judging by the 'artist's impressions', CWfan, Airbus has given up on just modifying the A330 wing and is going for a new high-aspect-ratio wing that is 'thinner' in both senses, a la 787.

Such a wing generates less lift for climbout, necessitating 'cruise-climb' in the early stages of a flight, but it produces a lot less drag at height. I think that that is probably one of the main contributing factors to the 787's claimed economy gain, and it makes sense for Airbus to go the same way.

I would think that the necessity for a complete wing redesign is one of the main reasons for the delay to 2012, and the much higher A350 development cost.
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kanebear
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 13):
No, in my opinon, that market does not exist any longer.

The shorthaul-market is becoming more and more a narrowbody-market with higher frequencies.

Funny, Airbus thought that too.
 
airmailer
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales

I think that you are judging too soon.

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 12):
Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales

Now thatairbus has shown it's hand and is not entering that part of the market, 767,A300,& A310 replacement will go to Boeing.

Ruscoe

I think that if I were making the purchase decision today, I would go with the -8 to start with and then come back later for the -3 because of the limited slot availability.

Even after Boeing announces the additional slots freed up by the increased production rate I'm sure that any new airlines purchasing the 787 will go for the -8.
 
astuteman
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting DavidT (Reply 15):
I'm still skeptical as to how the A350X can thrash the 787 and 777 so much when we're yet to see evidence on any large technological steps made.

I don't see how it will "thrash" the 787 either, but then it doesn't need to. Parity would be a significant achievement (and all that is necessary), and they might yet surprise us all by achieving that without a "single piece composite" fuselage (you shouldn't just dismiss this.....).

"Thrashing" the 777 shouldn't be too difficult, but, again, it also shouldn't be too hard for Boeing to at least keep the 777 competitive until Y3 comes out. That's all they need to do.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 16):
Airbus is essentially conceding the 200- to 250-seat market to Boeing. That market will need about 1,500 planes to replace aging 767s, A300s and A310s, he said.

I think that this is a huge point



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 17):
Boeing got it right, and the order book says so.

I wouldn't argue about Boeing "getting it right".
Nevertheless, Airbus were hurting in the entire medium widebody range. They had to do something. What they've done is...
a) Aim right for the "big money" centre of the 200-400 seat segment
b) attempt to cover as much as possible with a single fuselage diameter (again) for production economics

Baseler says the 200-250 seat segment is 1500 frames. He also says the 200-400 seat segment is 6250 frames.
Therefore the different A350X models will essentially be competing for a 4750 frame market (according to Boeing) in the next 20 years. Parity should ensure 50% of that, i.e. over 2300 frames, (each of higher value than the 200-250 seat frames BTW). Even 40% is a 2000 frame programme.

Given that they can't do it all, this approach might well be a very sensible one.

Also, I believe that there's no question of Airbus leaving the 200-250 seat segment to Boeing for ever. Once they've got their plan in place for the "big money" part of the 200-400 seat segment, it wouldn't surprise me to see the launch of a competitor in the 200-250 seat segment, maybe in the next 5-8 years.

From a product strategy viewpoint, I have to say I still have my concerns about the new A350X positioning, but from a "stand-alone" viewpoint, I think they've done a good job with the A350X. I can't see it being anything other than successful, even if it's not a world-beater.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
I would think that the necessity for a complete wing redesign is one of the main reasons for the delay to 2012, and the much higher A350 development cost.

And associated resource constraints.

Regards
 
jacobin777
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):

From a product strategy viewpoint, I have to say I still have my concerns about the new A350X positioning, but from a "stand-alone" viewpoint, I think they've done a good job with the A350X. I can't see it being anything other than successful, even if it's not a world-beater.

Good analysis mate... Smile

Much more competitive than the previous versions of the A350, and it will probably get a few potential 777 sales too...if (big if) Airbus can nail the specs down...

the potential (operative word) A350-1000 is going to be significantly lighter than the 777-300ER...lets see if Boeing take the challenge and make the -300ER as competetive as the A350-1000 by the 350-1000 EIS

p.s.-anyone getting tired of typing all those airbus numbers and letters.. spin 
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incitatus
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 4):
Yes, the -8 is successful, the -3 is a nightmare in point of sales

If Airbus does not offer a similar product, the -3 may be the only widebody optimized to do shorter 3-to-6 hour segments. There may be plenty of takers in Asia and Europe. Ah, remember the A300?
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ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
Parity would be a significant achievement (and all that is necessary), and they might yet surprise us all by achieving that without a "single piece composite" fuselage (you shouldn't just dismiss this.....).

"Thrashing" the 777 shouldn't be too difficult, but, again, it also shouldn't be too hard for Boeing to at least keep the 777 competitive until Y3 comes out. That's all they need to do.

Once again, the Astuteman is... astute. This is exactly what I've been saying to a friend who also follows this stuff. Airbus doesn't need to beat 787; they just need to match it. I think they don't even need to match it, really. They just need something reasonably competitive to garner at least a third of this huge market. The duopoly between the two players really drives this behavior. Airbus will sell loads of the A350 XWB simply because (a) there are a huge number of airlines who want an Airbus, and (b) you can't be competitive against a plane you can't get without another plane.

Furthermore, Airbus claims to beat the *stretches* of the 787. Call me skeptical, but it's going to be some feat to beat the stretch of the 787 with the *smallest* version of their plane.

FWIW, I had the exact same questions that Randy has spoken aloud. Beat the 787? How? Furthermore, I question fundamentally Airbus' decision in sizing. Let's hearken back to a (IMHO) legendary post by Astuteman about a coherent product strategy (or lack thereof) from Airbus. This doesn't qualify! I JUST DON'T GET IT. They're ceding the 767 market, and they're leaving a huge hole from 773 to A380. Why, why, WHY? If they want a single plane, why didn't they go after 772, 773, and 748 OR go *squarely* after 787?

I can think of only one explanation, in two parts. First, they don't believe the demand for airframes in the Y3-size market is the best use of their money. Second, they don't believe they can actually match the 787, so they couldn't take it head-on. If this is true, then they've made a rational choice. Otherwise, I'm really struggling with this.
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NAV20
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 25):
First, they don't believe the demand for airframes in the Y3-size market is the best use of their money. Second, they don't believe they can actually match the 787, so they couldn't take it head-on.

My guess is, ContnlElite, they know only too well that they actually need two new aeroplanes (787 and 777 equivalents) but the money and design resources will only stretch to one. So they have no option but to aim that one aeroplane at the middle point between the two types, and cross their fingers.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
pygmalion
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:58 am

Does anyone know the actual body shape of the A350XWB? is it round or a squashed oval? Is it a lifting body in any sense? Granted there is always some lift from the fuselage but in the past any lift from the body came at a drag penalty at anything over short ranges. (at higher altitude cruise, it increased fuel burn)

Is the 5 inch wider fuselage taller too? Does A have plans for crew rests above the main deck to free up seats or are they going to stay with previous lower rest areas that reduce cargo room?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 27):
Does anyone know the actual body shape of the A350XWB? is it round or a squashed oval? Is it a lifting body in any sense?

The pictures clearly imply a conventional tube-wing design, so no lifting body.

It's not clear if Airbus is using another fully circular fuselage like the A330 and 777, or if they are moving to an ovular fuselage like the A380 and 787.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
TP313
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 26):
they know only too well that they actually need two new aeroplanes (787 and 777 equivalents) but the money and design resources will only stretch to one

Wow! First time I agree with something NAV20 posted! this must call for some
sort of celebration!  champagne 
 
pygmalion
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:23 am

Just wondered if they managed to find their way around that problem... I just don't see where they are getting their efficiency gains. Sounds like a lot of "me too" but improved ideas without engineering behind it. "Wider windows" but not bigger, just wider, without the stiffness of composites, the window belt structure will be HEAVY. "Higher humidity" (20% was quoted) but not composite??? That's crazy. 10% is maximum due to corrosion problems with aluminum structure. Al-Li does not change that. How the heck are they getting around that? You can't change metallurgy just because you want too... Corrosion over time is something all the airlines are concerned with. Airbus also stated that they are increasing maintenance intervals... Boeing did that with the 787 based less corrosion with composites and high use of highly reliable electric motors instead of bleed air etc. I really would love to see how the A350XWB gets around the corrosion issue with high humidity. I'm sure the airlines will too. High maintenance costs will kill resale values and really impact leasing co sales. There are a lot of things about the A350 that just don't add up from an engineering standpoint.

[Edited 2006-07-18 18:40:02]
 
jacobin777
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 30):
There are a lot of things about the A350 that just don't add up from an engineering standpoint.

I think a lot of people are making those statements (certainly on A.net).....

Hopefully we'll know in the next 3 months..... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
GPS787
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 7):
Airbus made the mistake of writing off the B787 and look at the price they paid. Looks as if Boeing is heading in the same direction making the same mistake by writing off the A350XWB. Boeing has an awesome airplane in the B787. Airbus has another awesome airplane in the A350XWB.

Oh good lord the new plane from Airbus has been out a day and you are already making the point that Boeing is making a mistake by "writing it off"? No one is writing off anything...there simply has been only enough time to make a fast analysis of what was presented. As more info becomes available I am sure BOTH companies will make the necesary moves to counter the other...

Wow...
I feel the need to go screaming through the air in a pressurized metal(??!??) tube...
 
RAPCON
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:22 am

The actual reality is that the bonehead mistakes made by the Airbus leadership can be categorized as:

--Given Boeing a free hand in what will probably come out to be about 500 orders without any competition against them.

--The XWB has pretty much given a seal-of-approval to the marketing research performed by Boeing - that the future will be dictated by direct flights, not hub/spoke. Let's see Leahy try to deny that!!

--Airbus is still only able to put forth a product, the XWB, that is only 60% composite. AIRBUS HAS TO GO WITH 100% COMPOSITE!!! There is no excuse for their inability to master the technology necessary, and I'm highly skeptical of any claims of fuel efficiency over the B product. Frankly, I'm pissed with the half-ass job of the XWB.

As a HUGE Airbus fan, I'm not going to let the company off the hook - unlike the euroapologists on this board. The company that had become the world leader in innovative products, has become a has-been, and is now desperately trying to catch up.
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zvezda
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:23 am

I can't agree with Baseler that the B787 and B777 are "much different sizes." The exterior fuselage dimensions of the B787 are 226x235, of the B777 244x244. That's an exterior difference of 18x9. However, the CFRP construction of the B787 manifests thinner walls, so the interior size difference is more like 12x4. Both normally seat 9 abreast in Y, though the B777 can squeeze in 10 abreast. The B787 seats 6 abreast in C, the B777 is sometimes configured for 6 abreast, sometimes for 7 abreast. Both accommodate 1-2-1 First suites.

Perhaps Airbus now have an optimal size. Perhaps the B787 was made slightly smaller than optimal to avoid stepping on the B777.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Perhaps Airbus now have an optimal size. Perhaps the B787 was made slightly smaller than optimal to avoid stepping on the B777.

The order books are not bearing it out. Maybe that will change with the 787-10, but so far, no dice.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 33):

--Airbus is still only able to put forth a product, the XWB, that is only 60% composite. AIRBUS HAS TO GO WITH 100% COMPOSITE!!! There is no excuse for their inability to master the technology necessary, and I'm highly skeptical of any claims of fuel efficiency over the B product. Frankly, I'm pissed with the half-ass job of the XWB.

100% composite is not the way to go. (IIRC, the percentage is 45% for the 350?). You need to mix and match portions of the airframe depending on what the requirement for that section is. In reality I think that 60% (the 787 is 50% by weight IIRC?) might be the maximum.
 
antiuser
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RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 33):
As a HUGE Airbus fan, I'm not going to let the company off the hook - unlike the euroapologists on this board. The company that had become the world leader in innovative products, has become a has-been

I think you're being a bit too drastic. Airbus is in trouble, yes, but it's nowhere near the catastrophic state that many on this forum and in the press would like you to believe... It's way too early to tell how the A350XWB will perform, and you know what? It's also too early to tell how the 787 will perform.

Me, I hope both aircraft are successful and bring many orders to both A and B - the market needs them both to be active and healthy, keeping each other in check. Technology advances faster when there's competition, and I hope both Boeing and Airbus enjoy a very bright future.
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707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:39 am

I understand that Boeing took the overnight period to look at the new 350XWB, tweaked their own numbers and will announce the 787 is now 10% more efficient than the Airbus product. I'm pretty sure that's what I heard.
 
astuteman
Posts: 6932
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 25):
Let's hearken back to a (IMHO) legendary post by Astuteman about a coherent product strategy (or lack thereof) from Airbus. This doesn't qualify! I JUST DON'T GET IT

Thanks ContnlEliteCMH. I personally believe you're right when you say this doesn't qualify, but I DO get it.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 22):
a) Aim right for the "big money" centre of the 200-400 seat segment
b) attempt to cover as much as possible with a single fuselage diameter (again) for production economics

They have come up with a solution to today's problems, which will work (IMO), but at the expense of a long-term, holistic product strategy.

They will be left with a) a gap between the A320 and the A350, and b) a gap between the A350 and the A380. A350 CANNOT cover either of those gaps.

For me, that means that, if they ever want to cover ALL of the widebody bases in the way that Y2 and Y3 do, they'll need 3 widebody families PLUS the A380.
Realistically, I could see the lower gap being plugged quite easily by a "brand-new A300" style aircraft. I suspect that the 787-3, if not vulnerable, would not dominate such an aircraft.
I don't believe Airbus will build a widebody between the A350-1000 and the A380-800 for a LONG time, if ever.
Even if they did, it'll run slap-bang into Y3.

For a long-term strategy I would have preferred to see them produce 2 families.
*1 smaller A300-based family (8 abreast) covering everything (widebody) up to the 787-8 but not quite 787-9 (say up to 260 seats).

*1 larger family covering just "beyond" 787-9 (say c. 290-300 seats) up to c420 seats, i.e. a bit larger than the new A350X (my preference would be for a 9/10 abreast 4-6 inches bigger diameter than the 777), but just a bit smaller than I envisage the Y3 family to be.

In size, you'd end up with the following widebody families:-
A380
Y3
slightly bigger A350
Y2 (787)
"new A300"

For me that would give each model it's own "sweet-spot" whilst allowing both companies to cover the whole range (in Airbus case up to the A380).

People may have differing views, but to me, that's a "holistic" product strategy.

Unfortunately, if Airbus had positioned A350X where I think it should be, it would be even bigger, providing even less competition for the 788 and 789. And that I believe, is why the A350X is the size it is.

Regards
 
TP313
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 38):
I don't believe Airbus will build a widebody between the A350-1000

What I don't quite understand is why they traded a passenger capacity larger than 350 in the -1000, for a 8,500 nm range when 8,000 would do nicely...
What is so special about this 8,500 nm range that Airbus makes it a requirement
for every 350X variant?
 
astuteman
Posts: 6932
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting TP313 (Reply 39):
What is so special about this 8,500 nm range that Airbus makes it a requirement

Not just Airbus - when was the last time any widebody was launched with less than 8000 mile range?

Regards
 
7cubed
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:15 am

Based on what I read and heard about the xwb, this is a typical sales PR fest at a huge event with lots of media. It goes both ways - A & B, that's what these guys get paid for.

I'm waiting for solid numbers about the aircraft because, at this point, it's vaporware. An efficient aircraft is the sum of it's parts. By comparing what little I see on the xwb to the 78, I'm skeptical but will wait it out.

Based on the initial 350 project and all the derivatives, I no longer have confidence in Leahy - he's a nice guy and very cordial but he gets paid to sell airbus planes.
joe
 
TP313
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 40):
when was the last time any widebody was launched with less than 8000 mile range?

... it should be possible to squeeze in at least another 20 pax and still have
slightly more than 8000 nm range... so I wonder, what's so special about those
500 extra miles?
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 9:30 pm

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 40):
Quoting TP313 (Reply 39):
What is so special about this 8,500 nm range that Airbus makes it a requirement

Not just Airbus - when was the last time any widebody was launched with less than 8000 mile range?

IMHO this is the result of a pissing contest between executives that have no understanding of physics, let alone aircraft design. Their math is barely sufficient to value their stock options.

Guess how many representatives from engineering are in the Airbus Executive Committee?
 
zvezda
Posts: 8886
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 40):
when was the last time any widebody was launched with less than 8000 mile range?

Assuming you mean nautical mile range flying real world missions, rather than statute miles or hypothetical ideal conditions, then the B777-300ER, the WhaleJet, and the B787-10 (not officially launched yet) all come to mind, though all three are close to 8000nm and can do it with very light payloads.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 1):
Is he probably the cousin or brother of Mr. Leahy..?

We all know that humans are the cousins of monkeys... So we humans are all cousins of these two gentlemen!!!!

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
A Boeing executive later questioned how Airbus will take on two planes of much different sizes -- the 777 and 787 -- with just one basic design.

"It doesn't make any sense," said Randy Baseler, Boeing's marketing vice president...

This monkey should remember how the 330/340 family overlaps on both the 767 and the 777 family. Airbus has done it once, they can do it again. The 332 killed the 763ER, never allowed the 764 to really start, the 333X gave a lot of trouble to the 772A, the 346 killed the 773A, the ULR market right now is still only occupied by the 345, and the 343 flew much further than B's only concurrent at this time, the 772A. The 330/340 basically killed the 767 and pushed B to improve the 777. I don't see why the 350 cannot kill the 777 and give some trouble to the 787 program in the same time...
When I doubt... go running!
 
TP313
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 30):
There are a lot of things about the A350 that just don't add up from an engineering standpoint.



Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 43):
IMHO this is the result of a pissing contest between executives that have no understanding of physics, let alone aircraft design

Posts like those I quoted above fail to address the fact that the thrust ratings of
the proposed RR engines are NOT the result of any pissing context, and are
consistent with the weights and passenger capacities of the 350 variants
announced by Airbus...

[Edited 2006-07-18 20:53:12]
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
"It doesn't make any sense," said Randy Baseler, Boeing's marketing vice president...

So why worry then and mention it at all..???
He is either worried and whistling loud in the dark,dis-honest and does not want to recognize the new A350 family as a quantum leap for Airbus and hence a threat for Boeing -or he is not understanding what's happening....
Being a competitor does not forbid acknowledgement of an achievement !
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 33):
The XWB has pretty much given a seal-of-approval to the marketing research performed by Boeing - that the future will be dictated by direct flights, not hub/spoke. Let's see Leahy try to deny that!!

This will never happen, while the city pair growth continues, so does expansion at DFW, LHR, etc. They are more miserable then ever to do terminal changes. FedEx, DHL, UPS etc, are the kings of hub and spoke, to AA, AF, LHR etc, you are nothing more then a package to be delivered.

At least FedEx will come to my door to pick up my packages.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
"...It will be a step ahead of the 787 and leap ahead of the 777," Airbus commercial boss John Leahy, the bulldog jetliner sales chief, told a packed news conference on the opening day of the Farnborough International Airshow.

(Quoting Leahy, not Leelaw  Smile). Yea, whatever. Show me.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
pygmalion
Posts: 836
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:47 am

RE: Baseler: A350XWB...It Doesn't Make Any Sense

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting 7cubed (Reply 41):
I'm waiting for solid numbers about the aircraft because, at this point, it's vaporware. An efficient aircraft is the sum of it's parts. By comparing what little I see on the xwb to the 78, I'm skeptical but will wait it out.

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