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distanthorizon
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10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:07 pm

The past couple of years have been quite troubling and disappointing in Toulouse - especially if compared with the years that preceded it, when Airbus seemed to win every single battle.
The reasons are more or less well known: the 787 sales success permanently effected the A330 program; the 777 did the same with the A340 -- in all it's variants, plus the A340-600 has suffered some technical problems; the A380 has become a big headache - the program his beyond schedule and unexpected technical difficulties has occurred; finally, and in result, many costumers has publicly express their dissatisfaction with the company.

Yes, it has been a damn bumpy ride.

But I really believe there are many reasons for being now optimistic. And it has little to do the A350XWB presentation.

Let's enumerate them (not necessarily by order of importance):

1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;
2 - The A380 is in it's final development stage, which is, day by day, freeing human resources highly needed for the new challenge (the A350 program) - at one point, more than 6.000 engineers were involved with the A380 program;
3 - The many months delays allows extensive testing that will, hopefully, have reflexes in the final product reliability;
4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;
7 - Corporations memory are even worse than "people memory": Airbus can, in the short term, make everyone forget the mistakes made in the last months (Boeing did it after the industrial problems they had a few years ago, with many lines being shut down and deliveries frozen);
8 - Airbus will continue to have Europeans support: it represents, in the business and industrial world, the contemporary united Europe - that has definitely not changed -, and the European taxpayer is simply not against state loans; in fact, that is an non political issue here in Europe;
9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;
10 - Airbus will learn with the mistakes; future projects, while even more complex than the A380 - the A350 will probably beat it by points - will take on account the past. The rough experience will surely benefit future products (although at high price).

Final note: I could, naturally, also find 10 reasons for concern. But these ones are, in my opinion, very true.

What do you guys thing?
Regards
Nelson SE
 
chiad
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:45 pm

Good post DistantHorizon.
I'm sort of a "under-dog cheerer". And we A-netters really "need" Airbus on the same level as Boeing in every civil aviation product category.
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:30 pm

Quoting Chiad (Reply 1):
Good post DistantHorizon.
I'm sort of a "under-dog cheerer". And we A-netters really "need" Airbus on the same level as Boeing in every civil aviation product category.

Thank you, Chiad.
It is funny how these two companies have the monopoly of the market (above 100 seats) and, still, fight this hard.

But I really think Airbus has all the chances of reversing it's fortunes in the short term.
Regards
Nelson SE
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;

As opposed to what's been coming out of the mouths of Forgeard and Leahy over the last several years?

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;

Ambitous...perhaps overly so? Time will tell...

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds

If Boeing wants a composite successor to the 737, GE, RR, PW and co. will give them an engine. The next generation narrow-body market is up for grabs.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380

That must be why the A380 is selling like hotcakes...

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
7 - Corporations memory are even worse than "people memory": Airbus can, in the short term, make everyone forget the mistakes made in the last months (Boeing did it after the industrial problems they had a few years ago, with many lines being shut down and deliveries frozen);

Very true. Airbus is more than capable of not only recovering, but striking back at Boeing with convincing force. The next year should make for a good show if Airbus can bring the proverbial pain...

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):

What do you guys thing?

I thing, therefore, I am.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 3):

That must be why the A380 is selling like hotcakes...

The A380 has sold more passenger examples over the past 6 years than the 747 has and yet Boeing has still launched a new, larger 747 passenger variant - I dont exactly think Airbus has anything to worry about with regard to whether the market exists or not.
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 4):
The A380 has sold more passenger examples over the past 6 years than the 747 has and yet Boeing has still launched a new, larger 747 passenger variant - I dont exactly think Airbus has anything to worry about with regard to whether the market exists or not.

The 744 isn't competative with the A380, so therefore, the number of airframes sold over the last six years is negligable...of course Airbus sold more frames, they had the newer aircraft. I have no idea who will come out on top in the A380/748 battle, but it's certainly too early to call the fight. However, I think it's fairly safe to say that the B748/A380 battle isn't nearly as interesting as the B787/A350 face-off...
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 3):
Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;

As opposed to what's been coming out of the mouths of Forgeard and Leahy over the last several years?

As opposed to what's been coming out of Forgeard mouth. Leahy does not have responsibilities on present Airbus situation. He only tries to sell what he's got. He does not do miracles, but he is one hell of a salesman!

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 3):
Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds

If Boeing wants a composite successor to the 737, GE, RR, PW and co. will give them an engine. The next generation narrow-body market is up for grabs.

No, they won't. At least not an engine capable of giving an significative advantage. Even Boeing has admitted a new generation engine will only happen in th middle of the next decade.
And composites won't work on this kind of airplane (also assumed by Boeing).
I think this issue is not even controversial.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 3):
Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380

That must be why the A380 is selling like hotcakes...

The A380 will never sell like hotcakes. It is a little bit more expensive...  Smile
Seriously, no one will buy the plane until it shows what it is capable of.
Airbus already admited it (between the lines).
IF it proves an excelent bird, it will sell. The market is there, and will be a little bit more than a nich. The petrol prices helps - specially because the prices won't probably stop here.
Regards
Nelson SE
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:03 pm

They have good wine in France.....  Wink Big grin
59 types. 42 countries. 24 airlines.
 
jumpjet
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:34 pm

Well done - a great post! I'm not an aviation professional, I'm in sales and marketing. I know that in my line of business, when you're steaming on and are on a high, there's only one way to go - and that's down. Life's a bit of a rollercoaster and businesses have to take the rough with the smooth. I know that when we're down, we'll bounce back and end up kicking the opposition, just like they've kicked us in the past!

It's all to easy to become embroiled in things and to spend so much time worrying about what the opposition is doing, that you end up losing touch with your core activity. I don't believe either Airbus or Boeing are naive enough to do this.

I've no doubt that in a couple of years the situation with Boeing and Airbus will once again swing around, and as sure as day follows night, swing again. Such is life!
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:41 pm

Lets wait and see what will happen at Farnborough. I mean, it´s 6 years away until the first 350 leave the tarmac at TLS, and who knows if 787 will leave the tarmac 2008!

Maybe 0 orders for 350 this year, but more in 2007 and 2008..

Just throwing out my guesses here.

Micke//SWE   

[Edited 2006-07-18 14:48:14]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
airfrnt
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):

1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;

And of course, Spin. The reality is that it will take about a half year for the first fruits of this CEO's work to become really visable. The launching of the A350XWB and the recovery effort were started by Forgeard and company. This CEO is just taking advantage of the timing. 6 Months will start to tell us if he is creditable or not.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;

That's certainly true.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

Most Battles = 51/49? That's basically what the ratio is right now. Also looking at Boeing's actual order breakdown and backlog, the 787 consists of a huge portion of the overall backlog when compared to Airbus. That puts Airbus at a disadvantage in terms of cash flow.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;

Quite the opposite really. The reality is that with CASM still being fairly close between different lines, the A380 has a slight advantage overall until the 787 shows up. The problem is that this advantage in CASM is completly blown by a two hour flight on a A320 to get them into the hub in the first place as opposed to a direct flight from point A to point B.

Put it another way, which costs less, a 737 flight from Salt Lake to Denver to take a 777 flight to Chicago on United, or a direct from Salt Lake to Chicago?

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
8 - Airbus will continue to have Europeans support: it represents, in the business and industrial world, the contemporary united Europe - that has definitely not changed -, and the European taxpayer is simply not against state loans; in fact, that is an non political issue here in Europe;

World opinion matters now. The WTO is not a european institution. Airbus's loans may be popular in Europe, but it will matter not a whit to the WTO.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;

The question is, does Airbus's prior management reflect the company, or did the company reflect the management? There are good examples of situations where the execs managed the company in line with a pre-existing or strong corporate culture. That was certainly the case with Boeing under Condit. As much as we rag on Condit, Boeing corporate culture had to change before the company started to turn around.

Only time will tell. There is room to be optimistic, but the arrogance in Toulouse has to end.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

This is not true. If you take the sales over the last three years, they are practically equal (within 10% of each other).

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;

Not correct. Actually it takes more fuel to take a passanger from point A to B via a hub than a direct flight (assuming similar equipment is used).

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;

Yes, Forgeard is a very lousy cable installer. People keep on blaming the management for the issues (and they DO have their fair share), but it is the incompetence of Airbus ENGINEERS that has resulted in wiring problems and production delays. Managers don't design and assemble airplanes, they go by what their engineers tell them. If the engineers did their job right, there would be no wiring problems and delays.
 
deltadc9
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

Not true, sales are close to 50/50, and delivery slots as much as anything else are determining sales.

As for the compoisite comment, also not true, Boeing has announced the 737RS will be CFRP. Anyone familiar with Project Yellowstone would be suprised ifg it were not CFRP.
Boeing Pre-Farnborough Annoucement - Composite 737s (by HighFlyer9790 Jul 16 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;

110% true.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
10 - Airbus will learn with the mistakes; future projects, while even more complex than the A380 - the A350 will probably beat it by points - will take on account the past. The rough experience will surely benefit future products (although at high price).

Cannot be assumed. Huge corporations are known for ignoring the lessons of past mistakes. Leaning form them is not a given.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Reply 6):
And composites won't work on this kind of airplane (also assumed by Boeing).
I think this issue is not even controversial.

See above.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:28 pm

Question about the title of the thread...

Being optimistic in Toulouse for who? Do you work for Airbus or something?
 
787engineer
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 3):
Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;

Ambitous...perhaps overly so? Time will tell...

I just don't get this. How is the A350XWB "very ambitious". Airbus has yet to mention any new technologies they will be using on this A350 compared to the old one. Sure it will have composite wings, but wasn't the old A350 also going to have composite wings? As of right now the "new A350" simply has a new wider fuselage. So making wider fuselages is "ambitious" now? I'm not saying the A350XWB won't have a lot of neat new technologies, but how can you all make such claims of great "ambition" when we hardly know anything about the plane. Will it have bleedless? Maybe. Will it have a composite fuselage like the 787? Probably not. What else?

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

Over the past three and a half years (January 2003 to present) between the A320 and 737NG, the A320 has gotten 52% of the orders. You can run the numbers yourself. The myth that the A320 has dominated narrowbody sales is just that, a myth. That 52% may have dropped a little with Lion Air's order, I haven't checked recently.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;

How so? Wouldn't it save more fuel to take one plane flight than two or three? Hub to hub (at least the major/big hubs) will start to decreas IMO. I think in the future (in the U.S., I'm not that familiar with other regions) we will have more point-to-point between many more smaller hubs that probalby will not be able to accomodate or fill an A380. I think we will see point-to-point from all major airports and regional jets flying to the smaller airports. Just my  twocents 
 
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autothrust
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 12):
Not true, sales are close to 50/50, and delivery slots as much as anything else are determining sales.

As for the compoisite comment, also not true, Boeing has announced the 737RS will be CFRP

About delivery slots not true the A320 assembly line is producing 30 planes(highest output of any plane in aviation history) in a month that's 1.5 at day and at until 2008 they will produce 36Planes/month. So the A320 have more slots to offer. And the other part i agree sales are about 50/50

Even Boeing announces the 737RS Airbus will already have the A320E and wont sitting doing nothing. When Y1 will be on the market Airbus will launch the A320NG to leapfrog it. But at the moment they dont have to hurry with that, and will let Boeing do the first move.

About this topic its really nice one DistantHorizon, a topic without bad news
I would like to add a 11-Reason: The first composite Wing for the A400 is made. This will give for future projects a lot of know how and experience, IMO its a small achievement.

This Check Spelling doesnt work correct.

787Engineer if this doesnt sound ambitous for you:

-It will have bigger windows then the 787
-5% More humidity
-2% more efficient
-straighter walls
-They want leapfrogging the 787 and 777

[Edited 2006-07-18 17:02:09]
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
Joni
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):

I just don't get this. How is the A350XWB "very ambitious". Airbus has yet to mention any new technologies they will be using on this A350 compared to the old one.

The Airbus press release states their target is 6% lower fuel burn than the B787. That's fairly ambitious, concerning that the EIS is just a few years different.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:57 pm

Disregard what I asked. I wasn't awake yet. I misunderstood Toulouse for Farnborough.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
When Y1 will be on the market Airbus will launch the A320NG to leapfrog it.

I question if it is possible to leapfrog in this instance due to the fact that the engine will determine most of the economics, and they will both have the same engine.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
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autothrust
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
I question if it is possible to leapfrog in this instance due to the fact that the engine will determine most of the economics, and they will both have the same engine.

The point is its not a always bad position to be 2nd when the Y1 is on the market they will build the A320NG and will try to get more efficient engines then the Y1. However im really confident they will let make Boeing build first the Y1.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting DistantHorizon (Reply 6):
And composites won't work on this kind of airplane (also assumed by Boeing).
I think this issue is not even controversial.

It's not that they wont work, it's just that they don't deliver as big a fuel advantage as on a larger plane. That's why they need a new generation of engines to make a significant gain in efficiency over the current 737. Boeing will use CRFP on the 737 replacement.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:30 am

I think Airbus is starting to finally make the decisions that may turn around the company for a couple of reasons:

1. The A380 program--despite all the grumbling--has gone fairly well considering how many new systems and features have to be put in the plane. The fact that aerodynamic drag has proven to be lower than anticipated and the fuel burn rate of the Trent 970 engines have also been better than anticipated means Airbus could make the plane meet its original goal of 8,000 nautical mile range at standard MTOW in still air. Meeting that goal could convince 1) Cathay Pacific (CX) to buy the plane for its busiest routes from HKG to LHR, SYD/MEL, NRT, SFO, LAX, YVR and YYZ; 2) convince Singapore Airlines (SQ) to do follow-on orders for the plane; 3) convince Emirates Airways (EK) to keep its order; 4) convince Virgin Atlantic (VS) to keep its order (and maybe buy a few more planes); and 5) convince Lufthansa (LH) to do a follow-on order for the plane.

2. Airbus was actually wise to kibosh the original A350 program and replace it with the all-new A350XWB (which I'm convinced will eventually be called A370) program. Because the A350XWB is not structurally ambitious as the A380, this means there's far less likely chance of the plane getting a bit overweight. I expect Airbus to try to use more lightweight GLARE and CFRP materials for the aircraft skin and don't be surprised that Airbus decides to go with "bleedless" engines, which would save tremendous development costs for GE Aero Engines and Rolls-Royce since GE and R-R don't need to develop "conventional" versions of the GENx or Trent 1000 series.
 
pygmalion
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
About delivery slots not true the A320 assembly line is producing 30 planes(highest output of any plane in aviation history) in a month that's 1.5 at day and at until 2008 they will produce 36Planes/month. So the A320 have more slots to offer. And the other part i agree sales are about 50/50

This is in fact false... Boeing built 362 airplanes a month in March 1944, 16 in one day. (B-17, not commercial but not a small airplane either) I think the current rate for the 737 is 28 a month in one plant. Isnt the A320 built at multiple plants?? For the first 6 months of this year, Boeing has won 75% or more of orders in the 737NG/A320 market.
 
787engineer
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
About delivery slots not true the A320 assembly line is producing 30 planes(highest output of any plane in aviation history) in a month that's 1.5 at day and at until 2008 they will produce 36Planes/month.

Hmmm, IIRC Renton delivered 29 737NGs just back in March of this year .

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
-It will have bigger windows then the 787
-5% More humidity
-2% more efficient
-straighter walls
-They want leapfrogging the 787 and 777

-I haven't seen anything that says the A350 XWB will have bigger windows than the 787, source please?
-Anyone can "add" more humidity, but how will they mitigate the corrosion issues? Sure they can claim higher humidity, lower altitude pressurization, but will they be able to keep the same (or better to compete with the 787) maintenance schedules?
-2% more efficient?? WTF, this is supposed to be ambitious? Either OEM can work the numbers to make claims of greater efficiency. What I want to know is what sort of new (difficult) technologies that will enable them to reach these numbers. The 787 has its large amount of composites and bleedless engines to make it more efficient than the competition, what does the A350 XWB have? As of right now all we know that it will definitely be wider, and Airbus says it will be more efficient. How they will go about doing this will show IMO how truly "ambitious" the A350XWB is.

When the 787 came out there were numerous claims of 15, 20, 25, etc percent greater efficiency than similarly sized planes. There are so many factors (and assumptions) that must be made early in the program to determine these fuel advantages that most of these numbers are nothing more than PR spin. What is considered a "simiarly sized plane"? Which derivatives/minor models is that 6% advantage between? The 787 had significantly lower MTOW than the old A350 (per OEMs numbers), and of course there's new technologies that everyone could read about (GenX engines, composites) that gave it the edge, so it made sense that the 787 was more efficient than the A330 and probably the A350 as well. The sales numbers backed up this conclusion.

Quoting Joni (Reply 16):

The Airbus press release states their target is 6% lower fuel burn than the B787. That's fairly ambitious, concerning that the EIS is just a few years different.

That may be an ambitious goal, but that doesn't necessairly make the A350 XWB an ambitious project like the A380 and 787. How is this anymore ambitious than say the A320E?

[Edited 2006-07-18 18:04:57]
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
-I haven't seen anything that says the A350 XWB will have bigger windows than the 787, source please?

Hmm, define "bigger". I can quote you a source, but you won't like it. wink 

"The A350's windows will be the widest of any plane in production." That's (not 100% sure it's verbatim) what Leahy said at the presentation on Monday.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
don't be surprised that Airbus decides to go with "bleedless" engines

No. no 

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 18):
they will both have the same engine

No, not the same. no 

Leahy (he's baaack!), said that the RR engines for the A350X were not bleedless. RR's engines will be a new variant of the Trent family because of the higher thrust requirements of the A350X.
http://today.reuters.com/stocks/Quot...URING-ROLLSROYCE-URGENT.XML&rpc=66

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
Hmmm, IIRC Renton delivered 29 737NGs just back in March of this year

When I was at school (a long time ago now, so things may have changed) 29 < 30. Not by much, but still less. wink 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
Anyone can "add" more humidity, but how will they mitigate the corrosion issues? Sure they can claim higher humidity, lower altitude pressurization, but will they be able to keep the same (or better to compete with the 787) maintenance schedules?

 checkmark 
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
Hmm, define "bigger". I can quote you a source, but you won't like it. wink

"The A350's windows will be the widest of any plane in production." That's (not 100% sure it's verbatim) what Leahy said at the presentation on Monday.

You're right I don't like the source . But wider does not always mean bigger. IIRC, the 787's windows are much taller than they are wide. In most cases it is easier structurally to design a more "square" window (~length=~width) than it is to design a "slim" window, especially on a circular fuselage. By having a more "square" or wider window will make it easier for Airbus to claim equal or better window areas since you don't need to do as much "cutting" for the hole in the fuselage; it will have less interface (between fuselage and window) length to account for. Personally I don't mind as long as I don't have to bend over to look out the window; let's hope the A350 has windows close to (or at) eye-level.

EDIT-Sorry forgot to answer the question I intended when I responded  Wink. IMO, bigger means greater area.

[Edited 2006-07-18 18:27:57]
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
787Engineer if this doesnt sound ambitous for you:

-It will have bigger windows then the 787
-5% More humidity
-2% more efficient
-straighter walls
-They want leapfrogging the 787 and 777



Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
-I haven't seen anything that says the A350 XWB will have bigger windows than the 787, source please?

They said wider not bigger. For whatever thats worth. Its more likely from a structural stand point. Wider frame spacing versus taller window belt. Not sure that wider gets you the "more horizon view" that the 787 was going for with the taller wider windows but its better than nothing
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
"The A350's windows will be the widest of any plane in production." That's (not 100% sure it's verbatim) what Leahy said at the presentation on Monday.

The 787 isn't in production.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 29):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
"The A350's windows will be the widest of any plane in production." That's (not 100% sure it's verbatim) what Leahy said at the presentation on Monday.

The 787 isn't in production

I took Leahy's comment that they would be wider when the A350XWB went in to production. (assuming that it does) but, knowing Leahy's past verbal parsing.. you might be right. The windows are wider that anything currently in production...

[Edited 2006-07-18 18:37:38]
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
8 - Airbus will continue to have Europeans support: it represents, in the business and industrial world, the contemporary united Europe - that has definitely not changed -, and the European taxpayer is simply not against state loans; in fact, that is an non political issue here in Europe;

and they will basically lose a large tanker deal if they go for "launch aid"...there are already some Congressmen who are stating this..and it would certainly pick up steam if it this indeed to happen...

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
The question is, does Airbus's prior management reflect the company, or did the company reflect the management? There are good examples of situations where the execs managed the company in line with a pre-existing or strong corporate culture. That was certainly the case with Boeing under Condit. As much as we rag on Condit, Boeing corporate culture had to change before the company started to turn around.

Prima facie, I certainly like this new Airbus leadership, though I happened to like Humbert too....I felt he was the right guy for the job....

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 11):

This is not true. If you take the sales over the last three years, they are practically equal (within 10% of each other).



Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):
Over the past three and a half years (January 2003 to present) between the A320 and 737NG, the A320 has gotten 52% of the orders. You can run the numbers yourself. The myth that the A320 has dominated narrowbody sales is just that, a myth. That 52% may have dropped a little with Lion Air's order, I haven't checked recently.



Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
-It will have bigger windows then the 787
-5% More humidity
-2% more efficient
-straighter walls
-They want leapfrogging the 787 and 777

and I would like to know how they plan on achieving all these numbers....

Quoting Joni (Reply 16):
The Airbus press release states their target is 6% lower fuel burn than the B787. That's fairly ambitious, concerning that the EIS is just a few years different.

not to mention, the same engine core/technologies which could/will also be applied to the 787....

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 21):
don't be surprised that Airbus decides to go with "bleedless" engines

I'm still skeptical on Airbus doing this...

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 25):
Leahy (he's baaack!), said that the RR engines for the A350X were not bleedless. RR's engines will be a new variant of the Trent family because of the higher thrust requirements of the A350X.
http://today.reuters.com/stocks/Quot...pc=66

once again, the newer technologies can be incorporated to the 787 program...and the 787 offers "engine swapping" which so far the 350 doesn't offer..

[Edited 2006-07-18 19:01:57]
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
How is this anymore ambitious than say the A320E?

A few tweaks to a 20 year-old narrowbody vs. a whole, all-new widebody? If aiming to beat Boeing's "bleeding edge technology" plane with a much more conventional one isn't ambitious, then I don't know what they'd have to do to qualify. But, at the end of the day it's semantics around the word "ambitious". Some will think it's ambitious, others not.

Quoting Glom (Reply 29):
The 787 isn't in production.

If it isn't somebody had better tell the airlines that have ordered it! wink 
https://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2854761

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 27):
IMO, bigger means greater area.

Probably true for most people. The emphasis (by Airbus) was on width not area. Autothrust may have interpreted that statement the way Airbus would like it to be.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):

I just don't get this. How is the A350XWB "very ambitious". Airbus has yet to mention any new technologies they will be using on this A350 compared to the old one. Sure it will have composite wings, but wasn't the old A350 also going to have composite wings? As of right now the "new A350" simply has a new wider fuselage. So making wider fuselages is "ambitious" now? I'm not saying the A350XWB won't have a lot of neat new technologies, but how can you all make such claims of great "ambition" when we hardly know anything about the plane. Will it have bleedless? Maybe. Will it have a composite fuselage like the 787? Probably not. What else?

By calling it overly ambitious, I wasn't refering to any of the new technologies the aircraft will incompass, but rather the fact that Airbus is attempting to take on both the 787 and the 777 with a single airframe. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think that history has shown that the extreme ends of any product line (B764, B753, B736, B747SP, A318, A346, etc.) tend to be rather slow sellers. The baseline version of the A350 will probably sell very well, but I'm not so sure about the longest/shortest versions.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am

I can understand the skepticism, but I think because the A350XWB owes nothing to previous Airbus widebody designs, they can start from scratch and incorporate "bleedless" engines. The older A350 designs were essentially derivatives of the A330/A340 design, and that made incorporating "bleedless" engines next to impossible.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

What does Boeing have to do about the 737???? Boeing has (count them) 390 orders for the 737 year to date. That's on pace to exceed 700 for the year. Add to that the HUGE installed base of 737 operators, and you are looking at a giant cash cow.

The A320 is doing well for Airbus, but do not think that the 737 is somehow hindering Boeing in any way.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 25):
No, not the same.

Yes, they will be the same, you just misread my post as I was referring to the narrowbody 737/320.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 32):
But, at the end of the day it's semantics around the word "ambitious". Some will think it's ambitious, others not.

The goal of the 350 is ambitous, the technology is not so much.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 34):
I can understand the skepticism, but I think because the A350XWB owes nothing to previous Airbus widebody designs, they can start from scratch and incorporate "bleedless" engines.

It was made clear at the press conference that the RR engines for the A350 would not be bleedless.

The argument from Airbus (and as has been basically agreed by RR and GE) is that there is no clear winner when weighing up the pros and cons of bleed vs. bleedless engines on a new airframe.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 36):
you just misread my post as I was referring to the narrowbody 737/320.

Yep, my bad! banghead 

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 36):
The goal of the 350 is ambitous, the technology is not so much.

A good way of summing up the ambition! checkmark 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 34):
The older A350 designs were essentially derivatives of the A330/A340 design, and that made incorporating "bleedless" engines next to impossible.

I thought the "old A350" or at least the version right before the new A350 was 90% new?  Confused

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 36):

The goal of the 350 is ambitous, the technology is not so much.

Well, to be fair, we don't have any evidence either way yet. The engines aren't bleedless and the fuselage isn't made of single-piece composite sections. . . I'm thinking Airbus might have something neat up their sleeve. We'll probably find out if there is anything special over the next few months.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):
Over the past three and a half years (January 2003 to present) between the A320 and 737NG, the A320 has gotten 52% of the orders. You can run the numbers yourself. The myth that the A320 has dominated narrowbody sales is just that, a myth. That 52% may have dropped a little with Lion Air's order, I haven't checked recently.

Airlines with 737 fleet continue to order 737 but newcomers tend largely to opt for the A320. So of course when you have such big carriers like WN ordering that helps...

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
Put it another way, which costs less, a 737 flight from Salt Lake to Denver to take a 777 flight to Chicago on United, or a direct from Salt Lake to Chicago?

Considering the Salt lake to Denver and Denver to Chicago routes are operated anyway, the cost is only the marginal cost of your additional seat.

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):
I just don't get this. How is the A350XWB "very ambitious". Airbus has yet to mention any new technologies they will be using on this A350 compared to the old one. Sure it will have composite wings, but wasn't the old A350 also going to have composite wings? As of right now the "new A350" simply has a new wider fuselage. So making wider fuselages is "ambitious" now? I'm not saying the A350XWB won't have a lot of neat new technologies, but how can you all make such claims of great "ambition" when we hardly know anything about the plane. Will it have bleedless? Maybe. Will it have a composite fuselage like the 787? Probably not. What else?

The A350 has been criticized mostly for its fuselage size. If we except that in term of economics it was matching the 787. Full composite fuselage advantages are overstated compared to a fuselage with composite only where it matters the most.

The A350XWB will be more efficient than the A350.

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 14):
How so? Wouldn't it save more fuel to take one plane flight than two or three? Hub to hub (at least the major/big hubs) will start to decreas IMO. I think in the future (in the U.S., I'm not that familiar with other regions) we will have more point-to-point between many more smaller hubs that probalby will not be able to accomodate or fill an A380.

The world is not the USA.
The A380 is not targetting the domestic US market.
The largest point to point markets are often hub to hub markets as well.
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;

Energy, determination, and optimism alone will not guarantee you have the right person for the job.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
2 - The A380 is in it's final development stage, which is, day by day, freeing human resources highly needed for the new challenge (the A350 program) - at one point, more than 6.000 engineers were involved with the A380 program;

The A380 has been in its final development stage for over a year now with a fresh delay announced a mere month ago and the potential for plenty more new delays on the horizon. Especially if Airbus undertakes the supply chain review it has said it would.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
3 - The many months delays allows extensive testing that will, hopefully, have reflexes in the final product reliability;

Airbus is not going to re-test ($$$) something that's already been tested, unless of course they have to re-test it because it failed the first time around.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;

The A350XWB solution might address one major (and well known) Airbus fragility. The proof is still many years away and, Heaven forbid, if they run into the same issues they did on the A380 the skies in Toulouse may be cloudy for a very, very long time.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;

Yes, that's why the 737 has outsold the A320 by 4 to 1 this year.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;

Actually, you have it backwards. The higher the price of oil, the more efficient point-to-point flying.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
7 - Corporations memory are even worse than "people memory": Airbus can, in the short term, make everyone forget the mistakes made in the last months (Boeing did it after the industrial problems they had a few years ago, with many lines being shut down and deliveries frozen);

"Short term" is relative in the airline industry. When you're talking about the first new model you build after your last one -- the one that has been delayed twice and by over a year -- the memory will be fresh until you prove that delays and inefficiencies are a part of the past.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
8 - Airbus will continue to have Europeans support: it represents, in the business and industrial world, the contemporary united Europe - that has definitely not changed -, and the European taxpayer is simply not against state loans; in fact, that is an non political issue here in Europe;

This is the first correct assumption you've made.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;

This is the second correct assumption you've made.

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
10 - Airbus will learn with the mistakes; future projects, while even more complex than the A380 - the A350 will probably beat it by points - will take on account the past. The rough experience will surely benefit future products (although at high price).

This is the third correct assumption you've made.

Three out of ten isn't bad! Big grin

Quoting DistantHorizon (Thread starter):
Final note: I could, naturally, also find 10 reasons for concern. But these ones are, in my opinion, very true.

Maybe you would have had better luck naming the top ten reasons for concern.  Wink
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:04 am

One interesting detail is that the A350XWB announcement has not helped at all to boost EADS stock value, on the contrary, while the Boeing shares have been holding flat in line with the overall stock market value, EADS shares have actually dropped during the last two days. Apparently investors are not so impressed by the A350XWB and Airbus future in spite of all the positive news.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 40):
Airlines with 737 fleet continue to order 737 but newcomers tend largely to opt for the A320. So of course when you have such big carriers like WN ordering that helps...



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Yes, that's why the 737 has outsold the A320 by 4 to 1 this year.

 checkmark 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:30 am

Howdy all,

I get the impression that some of our esteemed european a.net members really need to hear only the good news about eads. Any comment that casts a shadow on this is really pounced upon as being bad. To me that is really a foreign concept. All the news about Boeing whether good or bad should be discussed. No need to self censor. Sometimes people and companies make mistakes and that breaks our hearts but that is reality....
whenever a subject comes up we should look at all the angles , not just those that warm our hearts...

Sigh.

Ok., so Although I dont fully agree with all the points on Distant horizons post (actually I vehemnetly disagree with a couple of them) I do agree with one or two of them as well.
So yes the sun is shining a bit on Toulouse , since yesterday. There is hope and reason to be proud.

Good job eads! (?)


1 - A new CEO is in place. A new attitude is being put in place. The references are excellent. The first public statements denotes energy, determination and optimism;
yes, i think you are right. I dont know if I would go to the extent you did but it does bode well. It is still early for them and we will need to see if they fully capatilize on all the opportunities that they have or if the management (or politics) structure gets in the way....

2 - The A380 is in it's final development stage, which is, day by day, freeing human resources highly needed for the new challenge (the A350 program) - at one point, more than 6.000 engineers were involved with the A380 program;
I will take your word for this. And so this is good.


3 - The many months delays allows extensive testing that will, hopefully, have reflexes in the final product reliability;
I dont agree with you here. I am not sure that many resources were allocated to testing other systems while the delays were occurring. In other words I dont think EADS took a hard look at stuff that was functioning. Although perhaps I misunderstood your point. Were they testing harnesses or just trying to solve a problem...


4 - The A350XWB solution is ambitious and will address one major (and well know) Airbus fragility: the continuous loss of wide body market;
Agreed.

5 - The A320 is, for some years now, winning most battles against the 737, and will continue to do so: there is little Boeing can do for now, since it can not start a program for replacing that model because there are no engines available and composites will not make it on this size of birds;
Kind of agree. I am still trying to decide if the 320 is outselling the 737 by a wide margin. I will concede this at the end of teh year , after all the orders have been counted.


6 - Gas prices favours highly efficient planes, but also the "hub to hub" philosophy - and the A380;
Agree with you on the first part - dont see how this favors EADS since right now and in the near future most widebodies are made in Seattle. I dont agree with your last statement. BUT this is where the rubber meets the road kind of point. We could be wrong and you could be right about this. Both companies have made their bets (you with the 380 and us with the idea that hub to hub wont work) so only time will tell...


7 - Corporations memory are even worse than "people memory": Airbus can, in the short term, make everyone forget the mistakes made in the last months (Boeing did it after the industrial problems they had a few years ago, with many lines being shut down and deliveries frozen);
I agree

8 - Airbus will continue to have Europeans support: it represents, in the business and industrial world, the contemporary united Europe - that has definitely not changed -, and the European taxpayer is simply not against state loans; in fact, that is an non political issue here in Europe;
wow, this is a key point Distant Horizon!! EADS is exactly that a flag bearer of europe and I doubt that any european govt would ever let it fail. It is a good competitor and they make good birds. the only trouble I see is that amongst you only one country seems to have any juice and that is France. That may fly for a while but eventually, I think, the nationalistic interest of the french will interfere with those of a well managed corporation. Heck, perhaps this already happened with the 380?


9 - Most mistakes made in the last couple of years were management responsibility - it had nothing to do with Airbus human resources - namely engineers and technicians that, in the past, has already proven extremely competent, innovative and motivated;
Agreed. You guys have some bright people

10 - Airbus will learn with the mistakes; future projects, while even more complex than the A380 - the A350 will probably beat it by points - will take on account the past. The rough experience will surely benefit future products (although at high price).

Agreed.

So yes, if one looks at it the sun is shining a bit on toulosse these past couple of days.



Peace

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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 44):
the only trouble I see is that amongst you only one country seems to have any juice and that is France.

Curious, then, that in the recent shake up, Mr. Enders position was strengthened:

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pro...p?feed=AP&Date=20060703&ID=5839944

"The statement from Glos' ministry asserted that the position of EADS' German co-CEO, Tom Enders, had been "significantly strengthened.""

I could be wrong, but I don't think Mr. Enders is French?

Not that it should matter, of course. As so many of my US friends here keep insisting, it should be the best person for the job.

 Smile

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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 40):
The A350 has been criticized mostly for its fuselage size. If we except that in term of economics it was matching the 787. Full composite fuselage advantages are overstated compared to a fuselage with composite only where it matters the most.

The A350XWB will be more efficient than the A350.

Where are the advantages of the full-composite single-piece fuselage barrel sections overstated? I think almost everyone (at least the engineers) would tell you there's a huge advantage with the single-piece composite barrels. Think of the tens of thousands of fewer rivets that are needed. . . then there's no more lap-joints either. That an enormous amount of weight straight off the OEW. A single-piece barrel will always be inherently stronger because you no longer have several "weak points" (i.e. the lap joints) that have to "strengthened". The single-piece composite barrel's inherent strength allows the plane to have thinner walls, thus increasing cabin volume while decreasing weight. Next factor in the labor costs of all the mechanics that would normally put in all those rivets (offset somewhat by the expensive autoclaves, LCF, etc., but considering the rising cost of labor, Boeing made the right move here). So I'll ask you again, where are the advantages of a full-composite single-piece barrel section overstated? Why do you think the old (and quite possibly the new) A350 is tons heavier than an equivalent sized 787? Take some time and take a look at the list cost between the A350-800 and the 787-9, while you're at it compare the list cost of the A350-900 vs. the 787-10 too. There the advantage is very significant. Do you think Boeing uses lots of composites simply for bragging rights or marketing purposes? If so then why not 60 or 70% composites, it's certainly possible. Composite parts are generally more expensive than their alumminum alloy couterparts. Boeing only uses composites where they will save weight and/or costs, period. Of course with anything there's good and bad (bad being lightning, damage detection, and manufacturing issues), but the advantages in weight and cost are hardly overstated. I'd go as far as to say its significance is understated even considering all the attention they get.

Whether or not the A350XWB will be more efficient than the old A350 is something I think we will never know. The old A350 (or at least the latest version before the A350XWB) was a very good airplane, and certainly not "old" (90% new wasn't it?) In fact, I think the old A350-900 might beat the A350XWB-800 in CASM  yes . I think the main reason for the A350XWB was that the airlines wanted a 9Y fuselage (option), and having a true 9Y fuselage would allow Airbus to compete more evenly against the 777.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 44):
Both companies have made their bets (you with the 380 and us with the idea that hub to hub wont work) so only time will tell...

Who's saying hub to hub won't work. . . certainly not Boeing. Hub to hub will always have a place in the airline network, but from our (Boeing's) point of view hub-to-hub is a declining market. With ETOPS and new widebodies with increasing long legs, the future appears to be set on point-to-point and point-hub-point.
 
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:11 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 25):
Leahy (he's baaack!), said that the RR engines for the A350X were not bleedless. RR's engines will be a new variant of the Trent family because of the higher thrust requirements of the A350X.

It's nice to have an engine partner who also gets launch aid.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 33):
By calling it overly ambitious, I wasn't refering to any of the new technologies the aircraft will incompass, but rather the fact that Airbus is attempting to take on both the 787 and the 777 with a single airframe.

Attempting is true, but not meeting. They do not cover the 787-8 and the 777-300ER, two models with outstanding sales. They were better off in the early 90s, when A330/A340 covered the whole 767, 1st gen 777 and 1st gen 747 aircraft.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 33):
I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think that history has shown that the extreme ends of any product line (B764, B753, B736, B747SP, A318, A346, etc.) tend to be rather slow sellers. The baseline version of the A350 will probably sell very well, but I'm not so sure about the longest/shortest versions.

The baseline 350-800 is bigger than the best selling 787-8 model. The largest 350-1000 model does not compete with the best selling 777-300ER model.

Quoting Aither (Reply 40):
Airlines with 737 fleet continue to order 737 but newcomers tend largely to opt for the A320.

Didn't Lion Air just order another 30 737-900ERs?
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:19 pm

Boeing is (wisely) already shopping their "CFRP 737" (we all know it'll actually be an all-new, optimised design) and the juggernaut that is the 787 will likely continue on it's current path. I think A needs a serious change in direction (more than the A350 mk 6), or they're bound Toulouse.  Big grin
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elvis777
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RE: 10 Reasons For Being Optimistic In Toulouse

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:21 pm

hi Mariner,

You are correct about Mr Enders, he is not German. Although I could be wrong but he does not have total control. He might be the best man for teh job but why does he have to share control with a frenchman. If he is the best man for the job he should get it regardless of nationality.

But perhaps you are right. I have been out of the loop and maybe I missed something. But I ddid keep hearing how the french politicians kept getting involved in the recent shake up and how legerdere(sic?) insisted that a frenchman must be co ceo..

So does everyone agree here that the french have no more influence than any one else in the group?

Would they accept a German (for example) as the one and only leader of airbus (and eads?). Was the last german to leave the company a sacrifical lamb?

I still have the uneasy feeling that the fench consider airbus a national company, any one else have proof of this?

Peace

Elvis777
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